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Episode 399 - The Voice

In this episode, we discuss:

The Voice

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Transcript
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Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,

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evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.

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Despite the reputation of their homeland, some are remarkably thin skinned.

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Some seem to have multiple lifespans, a few were once thought

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to be extinct in the region.

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Others have been observed being sacrificed by their own, but today we

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observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that gather together atop

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a small mound to watch, question and discuss the current events of their city,

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their country and their world at large.

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Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

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Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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Yes, and what a collection of meerkats we have with us in

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this episode, dear listener.

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I, of course, am Trevor, aka the Iron Fist, looking to live up to

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my name tonight as I do battle.

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Uh, with me as always, Scott the Velvet Glove.

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G'day Trevor, g'day John, g'day Joe, g'day Liam, how are you

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all, and how are the listeners?

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There are more of us.

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Joe the Tech Guy's here.

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Good luck, Joe, maintaining all this tonight.

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It'll go swimmingly, I'm sure.

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Yes.

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Also, we've got Liam.

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You might remember Liam, dear listener, who debated successfully, ultimately.

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He did not successfully debate me.

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He has got me to change my position for two electoral terms and I just hope and

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pray that the Labor Party actually picks up on it and moves slightly to the left.

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That's my definition of success.

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Welcome back, Liam.

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I'm pretty happy with that, that definition as well.

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Yeah.

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And also, also in his car with the windows wound up so as to reduce

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road noise is, uh, John Diastrates.

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John, who you might see in the chat room previously on different occasions.

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So John's going to join us as well.

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Welcome aboard, John.

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Thank you, Trevor.

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Right.

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Happy to be convinced either way.

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We'll see how we go.

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Yeah.

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So guess what?

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We're going to talk about The Voice.

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Because it's coming up, isn't it?

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And we've been holding off.

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14th of October.

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Yeah.

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And Liam reached out and said, Trevor, I think there hasn't been

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quite enough pushback on some of the ideas you've been putting forward.

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And so, Liam's put his hand up as this devil's advocate yet again, or just, no,

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well not, you actually, you are a, you're going to be a yes voter, is that correct?

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Yeah, I'm, at this point I'm pro yes.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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So, so Liam's going to put the yes, um, side forward and we're

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going to just see where things go.

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I've got a mountain of notes.

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That we can fall back on if the discussion falters, but, um, but yeah,

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we're going to talk about the voice.

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So without any further ado, if you're in the chat room, say hello and Liam,

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do you want to, um, kick off with your thoughts, having listened to the bits

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and pieces I've said over time and, um, You know, where I'm not, uh, giving

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enough weight to something, perhaps, or I'm just totally wrong on something,

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or something I've missed, or just give us, give us a bit of a spiel, Liam.

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Uh, I think maybe I'll try and just summarize what I feel is kind of the

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reasons why I'm a yes voter, and then maybe we can, and that's, I think, you

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know, I've got, I think, four succinct points in front of me, and then we can

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delve into more detail as required.

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Um, So, starting off, point number one, I think there's sort of a time element

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to this, so while there may be issues that you have with it, this is the

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opportunity we have, and if not now, it's sort of been mentioned that it's

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not going to be for another two terms.

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I think at least, sort of, something like this goes up again, and during

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that time, we'll still continue to have sort of poor results for Aboriginal

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and Torres Strait Islander people.

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So, there's an opportunity we have at the moment, and while you may

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have problems, this is kind of a good opportunity to see some results, I feel.

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Um, secondly, I think the, um, putting it into the Constitution is,

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uh, required, basically, through, we've had the historical dissolution

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of all the previous bodies.

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So, uh, ATSIC, and it was the, was it the NAC?

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The, yeah, the NAC.

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Second Knack, Atsik, and The Nick, um, have all sort of been dissolved

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at different points, and one of the biggest things I think we need

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is sort of continuity and support.

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Um, just the different programs need to be stood up, um, administered, and

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then continued for a period of time, and possibly adapted, um, to provide support

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to get to bridge the gap effectively.

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Um, I think we've talked a lot on the podcast, or you've talked a

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lot on the podcast, about sort of being a racist proposition, uh, I

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think it is a racist proposition.

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I agree with that.

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I think, um, it does separate Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people out, um,

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and confers upon them a very small right.

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And I think we should emphasise that it is a very small right.

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So, they'll be able to make recommendations to Parliament, but

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will have no, actually, hard power.

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The key here is that they'll have a voice, and they'll be there and be

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consulted on issues that affect them, and I think that's been lacking in the

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approaches the government's had so far.

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Um, also I'd like a sort of sub point on that one, is given the way that

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sort of lobbying and sort of money is affecting our politics at the

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moment, I feel this sort of levels the playing field a very small amount.

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Um, to some of our most disadvantaged people.

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Hey, I'm just going to interrupt briefly, Liam.

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Just when you turn to the right, your mouth goes right over the microphone,

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which then gets all breathy.

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So just put the microphone a bit more to the right, so that you're

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not breathing straight into it, because it's getting quite breathy.

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But sorry, keep going.

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That's a good comment.

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I'll move my notes to...

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I'll move my notes to the right.

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Perfect.

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Um, , so, uh, and then the final point, um, I don't think we can sort of just

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call them out as any other sort of low socioeconomic group, um, that can be sort

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of assisted by our standard programs.

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I think they're sort of distinct and different enough that we need to look

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at them and administer culturally appropriate programs to assist them.

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Mm-hmm.

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. Yep.

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Um, so that's the sort of crux of my argument.

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Um, four points.

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And we can go from there.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Uh, I guess initially I would say this is a balancing act depending

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on the priorities you have in your mind and different people

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will weigh things up differently.

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So other issues we talk about...

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Nuclear submarines.

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I can pretty much categorically say that if you're in favour of

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those, you're just wrong, right?

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But, um, this, this is one which will depend on your life experiences

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and your thoughts about different things and how you prioritise things.

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So, I...

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I guess it's one of those ones where I'd say it's a judgment

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call of weighing things up.

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And I don't particularly, um, begrudge people or, I don't

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know, begrudge is the right word.

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But, um, I certainly can understand how people come to the yes vote.

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And I can understand how people come to the no vote.

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And I can see how, um, people get there each way.

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And I understand that.

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It's not crazy.

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In either case, is what I would say.

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So, um, so first off, um, urgency of this.

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Um, you know, things need to be done to address poverty,

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particularly for Indigenous people in rural and remote communities.

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It doesn't have to be done through a voice.

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We could be implementing programs today to do stuff.

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So, there's no reason why things can't be done.

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Without a voice, for example.

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So, to me, almost urgency might be a reason why not to have a voice.

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Because that's just another body that things are going

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to potentially go through.

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So, it's, it's not as if things...

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Have to be done through a voice to get things done.

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So, so I don't see the urgency argument as, as compelling.

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Um, I would have thought it is probably urgent because, um, well Marcia

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Langton's not getting any younger.

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It's urgent if you want to pass the voice, but if you want to do

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something in Indigenous communities, that's a different matter.

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Yeah, I understand that, but what you've also got to understand is

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that the voice is still yet to be designed by the Parliament, still yet

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to be implemented by the Parliament.

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This is just making a, a part of it in our Constitution that they could

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then rely on and that sort of stuff if they ever wanted to sue the government

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for not actually setting the voice up.

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The voice is also only something that is a, uh, what's the word I'm griping for?

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Uh, is only something that is giving advice to the government,

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which they are more than able to ignore if they so desire.

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So, I don't think we're going to end up with, I don't think we're going to end

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up in high courts or anything like that.

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I don't think it's going to clog the courts with arguments that,

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well, you, you didn't listen to the voice, so we're going to sue you.

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It's just something that has been worked through.

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It was put together with the Uluru Statement, which was a gathering

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of, I don't know, a few hundred.

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People and that sort of stuff.

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And yes, 20 percent of them didn't, didn't want to sign up to it.

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I do agree with that, but 80 percent of them did want it.

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So, I would have thought if it's something that they have actually

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asked for, then it's something that, um, we've got to actually.

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If you said to any, if you said to any group, here's some

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special stuff, do you want it?

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What, what, what group is going to say no?

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Yeah, okay, but what's, what's the sort of special stuff

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they're going to get out of it?

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All they're going to do is have an advisory body and that sort

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of stuff that's going to...

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Filter everything through this one body that's then going to

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talk directly to government.

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Can the government ignore it?

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Yeah, absolutely, they can.

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Of course they can.

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The government can ignore it.

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This has led to arguments from the no case and that sort of stuff that are

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saying that you'll end up with the same problem that you had in Canada.

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Where their, I can't remember what it was called, but their voice is

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what it amounted to, ignored the, ignored, was ignored by the government.

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So the government found themselves in court and it's only just been ruled on

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by whatever their, whatever their high court is, saying that the government

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can ignore the advice if they wish to.

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I think that our voice will be able to do the same thing, so I don't think

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we're going to end up in the court.

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Yeah, I don't have a problem with that.

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I don't have an issue with that.

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I'm just, I'm quite I think that the largest mechanism is A, that they

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contribute to the discussion, and then B, that in the event of the government

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ignoring their advice, there is capacity for the, you know, there be a spokesman

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or the media to actually run with that.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So, in the voice, we've got to say we suggested A, and

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they did not take that advice.

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Which is something that could be argued in a court of public opinion,

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but I don't think it's going to end up in law courts or anything like that.

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So it's a special right of lobbying, is essentially what's being offered here.

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Yeah, okay, which is not really a big problem because they're

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not getting paid for it.

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Well, Scott, my problem is to do with the treatment of different

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categories of people based on race.

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So the problem is, alright, the actual right being granted

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ultimately probably isn't going to be particularly powerful, although...

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I wouldn't mind being able to sit in Parliament with a, with Parliaments

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forced to be my audience while I tell them what I think should happen in the world.

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And get a pretty penny for it as well.

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We're not even sure, we're not even sure if they're going

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to get paid for it, Scott.

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Scott, companies pay a lot of money for lobbyists.

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To go into Parliament and make representations.

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So it's not insignificant power to be able to have that access to

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people and to put forward your case.

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Like, it is a right of some significance.

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Now, sure, the Parliament could ignore it.

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But it's genuinely a right that is going to be given and the point that we're

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going to get to eventually is that this is not a right that everyone's been given.

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It's a right that's been given to a particular cultural

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group, Indigenous people.

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And that is, that is the only problem that I've got with it.

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Now, you know, Liam was talking about the culture group and that sort of stuff.

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And my hair on the back of my neck went up when he started talking like

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that, because, you know, culture is not something that we have to respect.

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It's got to earn our respect, and there hasn't been a hell of a lot

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of the cultural practices of our Indigenous brethren that I think

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deserves any sort of respect.

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I think that's a, it's a very tough point of view, in terms of

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like, their cultural practices.

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Like we've kind of been as a dominant culture and basically

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wiped out their whole population, then exploited their labour.

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Yeah, I agree.

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They weren't allowed to vote.

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Yeah, I agree.

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Yeah, I agree.

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And then, at this point, we're saying, oh, the culture is not

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something to be respected when...

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I don't know, like, there's a whole bunch of alcoholism and issues with their...

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Yeah, I don't think alcoholism is part of their culture, you know, it's um...

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No, but like, what are you pointing out as parts of their culture that need to...

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Like, they shouldn't really even have to justify their culture to you, I feel.

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Like, they should be able to exist peacefully.

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In their own sort of world, and they shouldn't have to

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sort of be absorbed into ours.

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Yes, and then you've got the problem that, you know, you've created.

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So that's, that's a good point to just repeat that again,

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that they shouldn't be...

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They shouldn't have to sort of justify their existence or justify their

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cultural practices as significant to you to be able to practice them.

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Yes, and shouldn't be absorbed into ours.

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Is that right?

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Yeah.

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Well, I've totally, I've heard previous arguments.

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Yeah, yeah, okay, so then you're going to have the, then you're going to have

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the situation like they have in the Northern Territory, where, oh, it was

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years ago now, there was a case, where there was a guy that was convicted,

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was, was accused of rape and that sort of stuff, and they said, I will handle

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it, so he spewed through his leg.

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And they said, well, that's it, it's over now, rather than, rather than the cops

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getting involved and that type of thing.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Keep, keep.

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I was going to say back to when you were saying about, uh, access and

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whether or not they get paid or not.

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See, Aboriginal people don't get the same access that religious groups and big

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companies get, and that's through money.

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So maybe this is a way for Aboriginal groups to have some sort of...

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Always up there that that, that the power and the money has

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been able to get totally before.

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Okay.

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I'm conscious.

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That makes sense.

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I'm conscious that we're chopping and changing here, so I wanna run through

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to the end of some of these rabbit holes before we move to another one.

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Just just back to this comment, 'cause it's a crucial one is about

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being absorbed into our culture.

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John, I promise you we'll come back to that.

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Hold that thought and bring it back.

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One of the things I find in this, Liam, is.

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We're talking about closing the gap and what, what is often measured there in

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terms of the gap is education levels, health levels, wealth and income levels.

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Um, these sorts of, you know.

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How many doctors do we have that are Indigenous?

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How many Indigenous people have a degree, a PhD?

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How many are in the middle class, upper class?

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And so one of the things that we do with figuring out whether

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we've closed the gap is measure Indigenous people by their success.

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in our society.

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So, if we're going to say Indigenous people don't have to merge into our

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society and take on our culture, then how can we then insist that key criteria

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Uh, matching up, and how can we be surprised then if we don't have the same

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number of doctors, lawyers, teachers?

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Because if we're saying to people, keep your own lifestyle, do your own

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culture, you don't have to merge into ours, but then we start measuring things

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about how well they've done in typical features of our culture, I'm okay

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with saying, you don't have to merge.

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But then you have to acknowledge that, that the counting criteria

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is flawed, the assessment criteria isn't going to make sense.

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You're on mute, is it?

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I can't hear Liam.

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No, no, they can't.

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No, I still can't hear you.

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What's going on?

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You must have muted it.

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Oh, there's a little bug there.

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Is that back?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I accidentally muted myself.

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Okay, so, yep, in terms of that, I think, yeah, tend to agree with the A few

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things there, and maybe disagree on some.

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So I think the criteria that we're measuring by are inherently sort of our

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cultural criteria, and that ideally in a perfect world they wouldn't, um, they

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wouldn't just be absorbed and that would be, you know, but they like they will

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realistically I think before when I was talking to Scott, it felt like they're

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having to justify their existence and their culture to even exist, right?

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Which I feel is like fundamentally wrong.

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Well, I don't think they need to justify their existence to us.

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You know, it's, they exist.

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You know, it's, and you know, on the 26th of January, I'm very much with

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them, I think we should change the date, you know, it is a, um, you know,

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it's, it's a celebration of invasion, really, is what it comes down to.

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So I think we've actually got to change that.

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Okay, so anyway.

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Anyway, that's something else that's going to be done.

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We're diverging again.

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Okay.

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Dictate Trevor's argument.

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I think, go on Trevor.

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No, I think you kind of agreed with me, didn't you?

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That, uh, that there is an issue that if you're not going to

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join into the Western culture...

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I think everything needs to come to the table a little bit, right?

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Like, there is going to be some assimilation, there's

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not like, you know...

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We can draw a line in the sand and they exist over there, and

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like, we're far past that point.

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Um, I'm just making the point that they should be able to have their own

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culture and have a sort of quality, uh, quality of life similar to that

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of, uh, you know, the Western European kind of people on the continent.

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Um, But yeah, that will involve some integration, um, so, I just...

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Won't it disappear though, Liam?

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Sorry, Landon.

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If, if you're bringing up the average of forest rate on a level of, um,

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what do you call it, the general quality of life, won't that make...

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Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders more like us, to put it bluntly?

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Well, I think, yeah, there's going to be some level of assimilation, I think.

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There's going to and probably over time, would they be sort of

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realistically distinct or not?

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I don't know if you went far enough into the future, but I think for, like, right

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now, they should be able to exist as I sort of have their own practices and

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cultural norms and things and not have to do exactly the same way that we do.

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And then, sorry I'm sort of losing my my track here, but I feel the the argument

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from Trevor, right, is that where Yeah.

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I'm basically saying that if you're not aiming to bring Indigenous people

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into the modern Western lifestyle in Australia, and if you're wanting

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to keep them in a traditional Indigenous lifestyle in a remote...

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Town or area, then it's really unfair to expect these key criteria

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to match up if it is my point.

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And so closing the gap is a problem if people are not going to, uh, assimilate

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into the, into our lifestyle to a significant degree because otherwise

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you just can't expect those things to a few metrics, right, that you could

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probably highlight as, you know, they could be culturally distinct and then

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still not, um, have what they have.

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So like, you know, the lower life expectancy, ideally you'd be able to

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have, live in your own sort of ways, but have a similar life expectancy.

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You'd also expect to not have their So, such a high proportion of their youth

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sort of locked up behind bars, so they're kind of two key issues, I think, that

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are issues at the moment, and that, you know, they could, they can have like

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in a healthy society or healthy sort of culture town exist with their own culture.

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But not have everyone, you know, going through the courts and being locked up

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in But don't something like 90 percent of Aboriginal people live in suburbia?

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Aren't they already essentially assimilating?

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So there are, yes, there are.

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There are some, so I think we're probably talking about,

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there is different groups here.

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There are probably people assimilating, living in...

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There's probably low socioeconomic groups that are probably more remote and,

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you know, where there is large issues.

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So yeah, it's not all sort of, they're not all the same.

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I mean, there's an emerging middle class of Indigenous people and I'll take a

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punt that they're living in urban areas.

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Technically, I'm one of them.

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So, um.

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Aboriginal in my community.

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Yeah.

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So, uh, my point is if we want Indigenous people to join the middle class, we

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probably need to get them out of remote communities where there's nothing to do.

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There's a whole range of social problems that come out of that living condition

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and it's an unrealistic expectation that people could live in those communities

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with nothing to do with a social welfare system that's going to prop them up

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and not have drug, alcohol violence.

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Uh, um.

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So yeah, so I'm just sort of caught your point about assimilation, if you like,

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or expecting Indigenous people to adopt Western lifestyle, and I'm saying, I don't

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expect them to if they don't want to.

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It's just, don't complain if the metrics don't add up to

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the same as an urban lifestyle.

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I would agree to that to the point, like if you want to live a life out

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in the bush, hunting, game or doing something, um, I would probably not expect

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you to have the same life expectancy as someone sitting in metropolitan

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Brisbane living a fairly cosy life, uh, with all the access to healthcare.

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Uh, however, I would think that there are certain metrics that

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should be closer than they are.

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So, the ones I pointed out.

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Yeah, for sure.

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So, circling all the way back to the beginning about urgency as your very

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first point, um, it's urgent to get the voice passed in the sense that

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if it doesn't happen this time, it's not going to happen for a long time.

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But if you disagree with the voice...

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And that's not an argument for the voice, do you know what I mean?

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So, yeah, so what is urgent, what is urgent is, is helping people out in

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particularly remote communities, and that can be done without the voice.

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So isn't that going to, is it going to end down, isn't it going to end up

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then Trevor, it's going to be a top down approach where government decides

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what's good for you and that sort of stuff, and they'll chuck money at it.

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Yeah, I know, which is exactly what they're complaining about.

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Whereas if you give them a voice and that sort of thing, if you

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actually listen to them, then you might actually find out that the

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programs could be better targeted.

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That you could have...

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Have we not been listening?

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I don't think we've been listening to them.

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How do you know that?

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Well, I don't know that, but I'm just looking at, I'm just looking at the

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results and I think to myself that.

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Ah, so the results are poor.

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Yeah.

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Because we have not been listening.

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Um.

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That's your evidence for us not listening.

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We haven't been consulting, we haven't, uh, when major decisions have made, I

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would agree with that because we haven't You've had a different commission.

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We, yeah.

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I, my biggest argument along those lines is I think there

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just needs to be continuity.

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So there was the four different bodies that were stood up and disbanded.

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Yep.

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And I'll get to continuity.

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It's on the list.

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Well, yeah.

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Along this point though, we're talking if you, if you put it

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into the constitution, victorious can't come in and just scrap it.

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No, but it's, Scott, you said we haven't been concerned.

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We haven't, they haven't had a voice, they haven't been consulted.

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If we ask them what they want, then something might be done.

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And my question to you is, how do you know that people have not been consulted?

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Well, I don't know, because I'm not part of that group or anything like that.

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When I've looked at reports on different things, like I looked

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at one, because we spoke a few weeks ago about, um, what was it?

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It was the income management.

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Uh, issue, um, in the Northern Territory with, uh, social welfare

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cards and things like that.

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And, you know, one of the things that strikes me about these inquiries is the

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enormous level of stakeholder engagement.

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Of going into communities and seeking opinion from people on the ground.

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That's what strikes me with a lot of these big decisions.

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Yeah, okay.

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But how many of them were consulted for the, um, intervention

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and that type of thing?

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I think, well, onto his, like, current point though, I think.

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There is, like, consultation, but then there's also continued, sort of,

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improvement, which is, I think, Dan goes back to my point about continuity.

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We need to have programs, and they need to have the time and space to change

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and see what works, and then properly implement it for a long period of time.

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As you know, I am in the party, but any politicians in such a bubble, when

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they talk about consultation about anything, it's very rarely coming

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from the people, it's always coming from whoever shouts the loudest.

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But there's no continuity or, um, uh, politicians hearing what needs the top.

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Well, I can just say that on some of the major decisions where reports are done.

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You can see there's an enormous level of on the ground consultation

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to work out what's going on.

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And we've got people in the Parliament who are Indigenous.

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So, just, uh, you know, there is this notion put forward

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that they haven't had a voice.

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You know, most, most cultural groups are, uh, a department, say education,

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the education department's going to make some changes and, uh, to religious

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instruction or whatever, you know, they'll go outside and consult with, uh, groups

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like, um, Queensland Parents for Secular Schools, that various religious groups

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get their feedback and, and then report to the minister and make a decision.

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And then totally ignore it.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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But that's the normal process of government is to the department going

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out and reaching out to stakeholders.

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So the Indigenous example has been a little bit unusual

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in that within government.

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There has been five different commissions set up by government to say, we're

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going to give you some help here with giving us stakeholder feedback.

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So we had five that, and then there's a history of them

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failing and being disbanded.

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And here we are with nothing.

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I think Julia, the moment a point there, isn't it that that ALP usually set them up

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and the leads tear them back down again?

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Is that Yeah.

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But is that an argument for the Yes.

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Vote to, to keep one of them going?

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So, so, you know my po my point is that stakeholder groups are normally

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outside of government and departments would go out to them and consult.

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And we have had a series of different groups.

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Funded by government, working like ATSIC, actually delivering government programs.

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So, it's, it's, it's just a furthy to say, for the last 40 years, we

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haven't been listening at all to what people, Indigenous people have to say.

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And it's as if there's some secret, some secret solution, that if only...

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We'd had the voice, we would have been able to tell the government, Oh,

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here's the silver bullet, or here's ten silver bullets, but never got acted

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on, because nobody listened to us.

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But I've yet to hear what these things are that never got up

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because nobody was listening.

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And if I was running a campaign for the Yes campaign, I'd be saying, right,

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tell me, tell me concrete examples of things that have been missed

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because we didn't have the voice.

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And if we had it, then this would have been different.

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And I haven't heard one.

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Look, I'm not in the detail of individual programs, but on your, like, point about

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consultation, I think the biggest issue is there's consultation, possibly, but

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whether it's actually listened to or not is probably the, the bigger issue.

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And I agree with that.

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I agree with that.

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I agree that it may not have been listened to, but the first part of your sentence

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was there's probably been consultation.

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Yeah.

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And there's no guarantee that the voice...

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Is going to mean it's going to be listened to.

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Yeah, this isn't like a black and white thing, right?

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Like if we have the voice, it doesn't magic bullet solve all our issues.

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If we do have the voice though, there is a continuous part in the government

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that can keep relaying these messages to government that this should work or this

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won't work and we can keep improving.

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Yeah.

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Okay, so let's move on to, um, overcoming inconsistency.

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Of regularly disbanded bodies, all right, so that's an advantage that you see in, in

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this, this proposal and look, there's no doubt that it would mean it'll ne there'll

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always be something because it's just got to be according to the constitution.

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I think I know where you're heading with this.

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It might be one dude in a shed in the NT or it could be a full

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blown body across the country.

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It requires money.

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Yeah, if, if, if Tony Abbott or somebody like Morrison or you know,

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somebody just doesn't like the idea of it gets in, uh, they, it's so, you

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know, the proposal is so vague that there's no compulsion for a massive

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infrastructure to do the job properly.

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So if funding's not provided, then.

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The whole thing just, um, could be just a, a useless shell of a, of a, of a voice.

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There's no guarantee that the government will fund anything

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of significance by this.

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It could be, as you say, a handful of people in a shed, if, if it's

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a government that is of that mind.

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There's probably two points I'd say on that.

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So the first is if the referendum passes, then that would be a sort

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of strong indication from the people that this is something that they want.

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And it would be unpopular for a government to go in and sort of cut

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all the, cut the whole thing to shreds.

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Uh, the second part is that, uh, look.

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It's not a perfect solution, uh, but it's probably the best that we can do,

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given, so, you know, we've had bodies stood up and taken down, and then this

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gives at least some level of permanence.

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So, yes, the Libs could trash it the next time they get in government,

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sure, but that's impossible to stop.

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Yeah, um, so, so, so I've said my bits on urgency.

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And overcoming inconsistency, and you've also said that, look, Indigenous,

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um, people have issues that are different because of location and

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culture to other poor people, I think is what you're sort of getting at.

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Am I right that they need a special body?

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to deal with their peculiar circumstances.

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Is that...

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I would say that when you're designing a program to assist any

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sort of group of people, if they have distinctive characteristics,

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then you need to have the program...

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work along those lines.

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So, um, yeah.

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And, and there's, without a voice, there's nothing stopping

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a government giving an opinion.

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No, no, it's again, like, we're like wrapping around on, like you, in a

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perfect world, you can do all these things, but the problem is that they'll

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probably take longer than three years, or maybe six years, and then when the

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Liberals get in and they just pull the pin on the program, that can...

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The voice isn't going to change any of that.

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Didn't you think that, um...

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Yeah, what I'm saying is, this is not the silver bullet, but

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it is a chance to make progress.

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Political pressure, Mike, Trev.

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Yeah, so there, yeah, there is the element I was talking about before,

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so it's a referendum that passes, so there is some political pressure

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not to just gut the whole thing.

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But yeah, look, if you, if you were a government that, you know, didn't want

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to help Indigenous Australians, then of course there's avenues for you to...

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Just cut the entire thing and throw programs out the window and, you know,

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shift blame onto the body, which I think is what I read in one article,

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what's happened with ATSICS, so like, yeah, there are avenues where as a

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government, you could tear it all down.

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Yep.

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So it, it, it might, um, it might do something, but it doesn't, but my point

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is by its very nature, it doesn't, doesn't solve any of these problems.

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It might just add a little bit of weight to make it a little bit more embarrassing

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to shut down an Indigenous commission, but these people are beyond embarrassment.

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Your argument now is verging into the, you know, it doesn't go far enough.

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You know, we're doing too little.

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No, um, cause I'm saying it's a balancing act and I'm saying that

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the benefits that are obtained from the voice are, I consider, small.

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And then we get to the negative of the racism aspect.

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Okay.

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And so what I'm, previous, uh, 38 minutes was about...

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In my mind, the benefits aren't as strong or as good or as powerful as people think.

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And, and on the other side, I have an issue with the inherent racism in the

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proposal, which I think outweighs it.

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So, um...

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So it's not a case of saying it doesn't go far enough, which you'd need to do more,

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it's, it doesn't add much, and the problem is it comes attached with this other

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big disadvantage of racism, so, uh, Can you explain the racism part a bit more?

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So I feel like, you know, there's the, there's the racism brand, which

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seems bad, but this is like, you know, positive racism, basically,

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I would sort of liken it to.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So, but also very, very mild.

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Positive racism, giving very mild powers to a small part of the

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population who historically we've done absolutely horrendous things to.

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Yeah, so it is a form of positive racism.

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Um, the problem with that is when you...

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Open the door to saying it's okay to provide special rights based on

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cultural groups than other cultural, than your argument to deny other

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cultural groups special rights.

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Starts to fall away.

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So when a Christian...

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a slippery slope kind of thing going on.

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Uh, well, hear me out.

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When a Christian...

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See, when, you know, last eight years we've spent rallying

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against Christians wanting special privileges, who say, we're different.

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Because of our culture, we need to group together so we can only employ

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people as math teachers who are Christians, because we're special.

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And in my argument, the first thing that I think of with these issues is We're

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all, we all have the same equal rights.

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You Christians are not special.

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You have to work in the same system that we all have to work in.

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And if you start saying, uh, cultural groups can have different rights, then

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you can no longer maintain that argument.

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You are saying, well, you can have different rights for different cultural

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groups if it's a positive thing.

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Right, and I would say it's a positive thing in a very rare exceptional

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circumstance, given the fact that it's sort of over a hundred years.

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And you know what, if 99, 90, 85, 80 percent, if 90 percent

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of Indigenous people were...

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Uh, uh, poor and disadvantaged.

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It was so close to a hundred percent.

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You thought it just doesn't matter.

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It's like indigenous equals poor and disadvantaged.

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Then I'd be inclined to say, okay, let's just, let's just say all indigenous people

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need, need these special rights because they're all disadvantaged, but they're

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not, there's a burgeoning middle class and upper class of indigenous people.

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There are, there's a spectrum of, of success and disadvantage

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in indigenous communities.

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So I'm all about.

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Helping people who are disadvantaged.

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And, dear listener, if you've tuned into this and you've never heard this before,

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triple, quadruple the amount of money that goes to poor Indigenous communities.

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Fine with that.

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But you just have to make the distinction that people should get

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this money and advantages and help.

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Because they're disadvantaged, not because they are part of a cultural group.

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You need to look within that.

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And the problem with the voice is, it's ignoring class.

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It's saying that Indigenous people, uh, as a cultural group,

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will get these particular rights.

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And I have a real problem with that.

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And so I accept that my emphasis on equal rights is, is...

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May be higher than other people, because of my experience with religion and

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what I think of that in particular.

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And it's just me.

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And other people may say, yeah, that's not such an important thing.

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Uh, can live with some, some good racism, and I don't care about these arguments.

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Um, but, I do.

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And so I prioritize that, and that's my judgment that that's, uh, more

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important than the other factors that we've just talked about.

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Yep.

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Look, I can, I can understand all that.

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I would say that I don't weigh that nearly as highly as you seem to.

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Um, I also don't see the sort of slippery slope of us undermining

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our general premise of how we operate, um, through sort of, like,

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giving the okay to this one voice.

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So.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Can I.

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Okay, can I say that, um, I think Marcia Langton, in a previous form,

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an earlier format, kind of agreed with me on the importance of, of...

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So, I'll just, um, go through some of my notes here a little bit, but we had a, um,

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an expert panel on recognizing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, uh,

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in the Constitution 2012 and a joint select committee, um, shortly after that.

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And in an article, um, Where, and, and, and so this is in 2013, 2015,

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and they were saying, what should we do to recognize indigenous

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people in the Constitution?

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And what they came up with at that point after consultation was, let's get rid of

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the race provisions in the Constitution, and let's put in a section that recognizes

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the history that indigenous people were here first, and that they suffered.

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And, and that was the proposal that came out in 2012 2013,

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recognition of Indigenous culture and people and their history.

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And removing the specific race provisions in the Constitution.

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Now, that, I could agree with.

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Not a problem.

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All perfectly fine.

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When people say, Oh, this changed the voice, it's about recognising people.

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I say, No, it's not.

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It's more than that.

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We've moved beyond what was proposed in 2012 2013.

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If they had stuck to that proposal, The referendum would get up,

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because it doesn't, it doesn't have a racist element to it.

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And people would say, fair enough, that's history, and yeah, let's get

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rid of race from the constitution.

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And Marcia Langton at the time, wrote an article...

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Basically saying, we need to get race out of the constitution,

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it shouldn't be there.

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And we should move to a situation where we're just talking about, being

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indigenous is just an interesting little sideline, and it doesn't make

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who you are, and what's important is let's look after disadvantaged people.

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Like, that's what she was saying back then.

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And it's Noel Pearson and the Uluru Statement.

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That introduced the idea of the voice, and that's the one where your average

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Australian, who's not a racist, I mean, there are racist Australians, of course,

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but the people who are voting no in this referendum are people who are saying,

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I think we're all should be the same.

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I think we should treat people equally.

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I don't think I'm special.

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I don't think anybody else is special.

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I think we should all have the same rights and just help out poor people.

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That's what people are objecting to the idea of, of racial, um,

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categorization and, and division.

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The, the irony in this argument, the debate in Australia has

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been appalling in that the...

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No voters, well, the yes voters are accusing all no voters of

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being racist, and you could be.

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As in my case right now, if you understand the argument, dear listener, is you're

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trying to be as race blind as possible.

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That's the issue.

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And these people are being accused of racism.

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So, um, So, so if they'd have stuck to the original 2012 2013 idea, without

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introducing the voice, it would get up.

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And...

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Yeah, but would that make a difference, Trevor?

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Would...

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No.

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None of this makes a difference.

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No, there's...

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Nothing is going to make a difference, because ultimately, nobody's able to,

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to deal with the hard, uncomfortable truth in this whole thing.

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So none of it's going to make a difference.

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It's all window dressing.

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Uh, I would disagree with that.

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I think it can make a difference.

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If you had a body that's set up and listened to by the government

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for a continued period of time, then it could make a difference.

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Why, why hasn't, why hasn't it made any difference in the last 40 years?

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Because they tore it apart.

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They tear everybody down.

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Like no, no body's lasted, I don't know, what's the longest

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duration of any one of the four?

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And then, yeah, and then also, you know, you get Liberal governments

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which have been fairly dismissive of the Indigenous peoples.

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We had, uh, the NACC was from 1977 to 1985.

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We had ATSIC for 15 years, 1990 to 2005.

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So, none of these, nobody wants to deal with that.

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I'd have to, like, go into...

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Well, I'd have to do more research into how all these bodies function,

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what programs they ran and then, you know, how much they were funded

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and listened to by the government.

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But like, but what's the, what's the, what's the policy that's, that's been

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missing that the voice proponents say, we needed this and we didn't get

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it because we didn't have a voice.

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If only we'd had it.

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No, we're not disputing that they haven't had a voice at different points in time.

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No, the idea, the policy.

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Like, the whole point of this is there are ideas that Indigenous

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people have about how to improve the lives of Indigenous people.

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And the reason that we have not been able to do something is because nobody's

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been listening to us about these ideas.

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I don't think that's...

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Not just listening.

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It's about putting them into positions where they can sort

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of control their own destiny.

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But the voice is about nobody's listening to us.

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That's the crux of the voice, is nobody's listening, we need a

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voice to tell Parliament stuff.

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And I've yet to hear the argument that says, like, A, B, C and D, if only

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you'd listened to these ideas, we'd have been somewhere different by now.

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I think it probably goes down more to sort of like lower level, like, smaller

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programs in different communities, like, they're all not homogenous.

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Yeah, yeah, well...

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This, you know, that is true.

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So one of the things out of, uh, particularly with the, um, income

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management program, which the reports I was reading, which was sort of post

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the event and interviewing people afterwards as to what they thought, 50 50.

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In these communities about whether they thought it was a good idea,

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the income management or not.

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And so one of the things that come from it was, uh, different

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regions have different desires and wants and needs and circumstances.

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And so, uh, so yeah, in fact, in fact, if that is correct, and if, um, If

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there's a spectrum of answers to things, quite often the role of the voice

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would be to say, you know what, in this community we should be doing A, B, C,

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and in that community D, E, F, and this community over here is completely split.

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It would be hard for the voice to make a recommendation on, um, income

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management if they looked at the results in some communities where

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it was 50 50, and they'd go, well...

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Some want it and some don't.

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It, uh, it, uh, a lot of the reports are showing that regional

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solutions are what's needed.

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I don't know that a central body in Canberra is necessarily the

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right place to start if the, if regional answers are the solution.

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Yeah, but they're also, they're also saying that a certain number

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of those representatives have got to be from the regions, don't they?

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's true.

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That is true.

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And there's also like, you know, different levels of represent like different levels

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of government for different things.

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So the federal government could be mainly around sort of Giving up funding

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and you know, which programs continue to go ahead or which don't and making

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fairly high level decisions But then really pushing down the majority of money

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and you know autonomy to lower levels.

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Yeah But you know what all the money in the world for people in

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remote Locations with nothing to do who have been . Yeah, you need to

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fix the root cause of this issue.

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Heard it intertribal, um, groups who just fight all the time, then all the money

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in the world doesn't solve that problem.

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Some of these problems are actually insolvable without, without

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dislocating people from the land.

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And nobody's going to do that.

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I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that.

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I think that's, you know, they're more creative.

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Like you can start up businesses or, you know, you kind of need to give people

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meaningful things to do with their life.

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So, I'm not sure exactly what that means, but there's surely got to be

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mechanisms to do that without taking them away from wherever they are.

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I don't think that you can just set up a business out there though, because you're

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going to end up with, um, you're going to end up with a problem that you're not

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going to have clients or anything else.

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Businesses only, only prosper where there's clients.

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And what Trevor's talking about is a.

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Very remote area where there's a five or six people living, so, you know, you're

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not going to be able to Get a very large customer base from five or six people.

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Yeah I think as a...

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Unless you're doing some sort of, you know...

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Yeah Ultimately, that's why I see it as hopeless for remote communities in,

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uh, there's just no solution to bring those people and bridge the gap while

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they continue to live in those, while they continue to live in those areas.

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And they're the ones who most concern me.

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And, and ultimately.

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What's required there is, is cultural evolution, um, where we say, you

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know what, there's some parts of culture that were great, uh, 300

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years ago, but are just not going to work in the current environment.

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So, uh, if you continue this way, it's not going to be successful.

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In, in, in the metrics that we measure for closing the gap,

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it's just, it's just impossible.

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And the sort of people who are going to be in The Voice are unlikely to recommend

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cultural evolution, because to me, they seem like people who are in the industry

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of maintaining Indigenous cultural purity and They would perhaps be the last

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people to, to, to give up on culture.

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I don't, they don't need to give up on culture, we're talking

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about sort of in evolutions.

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Give up on a significant part of it, the land component.

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The attachment to land.

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That's a big part of it.

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And also, I agree with some of your points around, like, it's going to be almost

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impossible to, you know, education and living standards for people out there.

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I'd point to the bigger problems being, you know, the communities that are

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in sort of semi metropolitan areas.

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I don't know, uh, what's that?

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Townsville or something like that.

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Where there is sort of like a youth justice issue.

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Yeah.

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Um, and you know, we've got...

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90 percent of Indigenous kids might like being in juveniles.

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90 percent of juvenile.

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Kids being locked up for Indigenous.

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So, they're things that, you know, we can actually bridge the gap on

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and aren't these sort of very rural issues that you're talking about.

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And I think, you know, you'd probably, if you really wanted to be clever

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with the stats, you'd maybe make some allowances for things like that.

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So you could probably segment the Indigenous population by the people

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living in, you know, non remote areas.

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And that would be a far more fair representation of the stats.

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And I don't know if they'd do that or not.

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Was that sorry, John?

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Sorry, mate, maybe that's where the voice of hell pointing to areas like...

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Education, especially, and um, juvenile detention or that sort of thing.

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I think education's the key.

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Yeah, education's a big one.

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But also, it's a whole, it's a whole span of issues, right?

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Like, you've got kids that have parents who don't have a purpose and are

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struggling with their own issues, and then you've also got poverty, putting them

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out on the streets or not enough food, and then you've kind of got boredom, not

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being, and then yeah, education as well, not being in schools and things like that.

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So it's, there's no one simple solution to the sort of youth justice

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issue faced by Indigenous people.

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As long as you don't end up going down the road where that woman that was arguing

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for the, what was she arguing for, Trevor?

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She was arguing that they should have education in their own language.

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Rather than English.

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Well, amongst a bunch of other things.

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Yes.

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Yeah, that would be...

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Yeah, was that a couple of episodes ago?

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Yeah, I wasn't particularly involved with those suggestions.

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So, yeah.

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I think, yeah, everyone needs to come to the table a little bit.

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Well, I don't know that I've got a lot of pressing other bits to say about it.

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I mean, have you, Liam?

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I mean...

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Uh, no, look, I think if I were to summarise our positions, I think

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you weigh the rights element.

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quite highly, whereas I don't value it nearly as much.

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Um, I think that this, I would feel more inspired that this is actually

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an opportunity for change, rather than I feel you are quite cynical

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of the process being a, you know, mechanism that will actually help.

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Um, I think they're the two main things that I feel we sort of disagree on.

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Mm-hmm.

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Is there another one?

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, no.

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I was, um, I did mention just briefly that Marcia Langton, after that sort

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of 2013 period was quite happy with just a more modest proposal, which

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was, let's get rid of race and let's, um, let's just recognize history and

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suffering and put it in the constitution.

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I think that would be fine.

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People would have been on board with that.

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My...

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My emphasis on downplaying race and, and upplaying class disadvantage, I think is,

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um, you know, now that's just personally me compared to you, um, but I'm not alone

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in that some of the great American black activist thinkers Were along the same

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lines in many cases, or mentioned multiple times, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X,

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um, I think I previously mentioned, uh, Franz Fanon and Amira Baraka.

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I mean, these are people who are making comments like, Let's stop

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talking about race and deal with it.

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It's a class issue.

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And that's how American black activists moved.

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Our black activists have not moved in that direction yet.

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Look, I can, I can see the, the pros of that argument.

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I just think that, yeah, I feel that there, this is such an

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opportunity for change and that, um,

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I feel that it's also such a small, small right that's being

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granted, that, uh, it's just a body that can, you know, have a voice.

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Um, and I feel that kind of is something that's also quite heavy

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in how I've sort of judged this.

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They're really asking for like so very little, um, and we don't seem

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to even want to be granting that.

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So yeah, like I can, I can, I've listened to the previous episodes on and heard

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those arguments, um, and maybe if the race thing was more prominent in this for

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me, I just don't think it really is that.

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They get a small body that can have a voice to Parliament and

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then hopefully it can do some good.

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Um, that's kind of where I sit.

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I'll let you finish on that highlight, if you like, Liam.

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Highlight?

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Lowlight?

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Who knows?

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See, dear listener, I don't have to get the last word in every time.

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He says getting the last word in.

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Well, should we have a show of hands?

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Who's planning on voting yes?

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Um, I'm still undecided.

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You're still Eced . Hard job.

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We couldn't get you to make a decision after.

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Well, I, I certainly agree with both of your points a lot.

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I'm really worried about that.

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What I term as identity policy, um, aspect of it.

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You know, the people I'm aboriginal in my community.

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Yeah.

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Two of my sons are aboriginal community.

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Two older ones aren't.

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Does that mean two of them could get on this commission and two couldn't?

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That, that, that worries me.

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I don't know.

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Yes.

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I don't think they've actually said.

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That's what it means.

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I don't think they've actually, I don't think they've actually said what they're

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going to do to actually say, you know, Are they going to do blood tests to

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determine whether or not someone can vote?

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Yeah, I mean, that's the bit that worries me and leans me towards no.

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The bit that leans me towards yes is that I think all these commissions

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that have been there in the past, um, were basically getting run down

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from the get go, you know, they only lasted as long as they did till...

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Um, somebody got in with enough power to dismiss them, so if a voice gets in, maybe

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there will be more access to Parliament.

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Which is going to help things along a bit.

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Yeah, which is, you know, Trevor's made the whole point about there being

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lobby groups and that sort of stuff.

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Um, considering the history and all that type of thing, would it be

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such a bad thing if the government actually gave them a lobbying,

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um, straight into the, straight into the halls of power, you know?

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It certainly would be more power than what, like I'm a member, um, and quite

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heavily involved in my local Labor branch.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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I can tell you the voice will get them a lot more access than members do.

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I was arguing that I was arguing with our local South Wales MP on, uh, Monday

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before last of our branch meeting, and they, they're quite happy to continue on

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L N p, um, uh, policies, um, because it's convenient for them and all their local

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branches are screaming at 'em, but, you know, we're not getting anywhere with it.

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Ah, democracy.

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You know, Liam, I've got a nickname for you when you come on next time.

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You're, you're the Scott Whisperer.

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No, I was leaning towards a yes vote right from word go.

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You know, he's, he's not Scott Whisperer, you know, and he's only, he's only

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got me to vote for the Greens for two terms just to hopefully kick the Labor

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Party in the pants so they actually start to behave themselves again.

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Yeah, I'll come back in two terms, Scott, and we can have another debate.

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Yeah, alright.

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Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call this, uh, done

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and dusted for this episode.

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Um, I'm gonna look, uh, for another topic where Liam can

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convince Scott to change his mind.

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He has not convinced me to change my mind.

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I'm now going to come in here and justify my position to you, Trevor.

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I'm just joking, Scott.

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Fair enough.

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You, uh, you told me you're already a yes.

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Yeah, I know.

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I mean, next time, Trevor, we can go on, um, I can push back a bit about polls

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and Ukraine, there's the other two.

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Oh, now you're tempting me.

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I think if you were to come on here, John, and argue with him about Ukraine,

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you're going to have me supporting you, you're going to have Joe supporting

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you, and, you know, it's just...

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How's that counter offensive going?

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The counter offensive is actually starting to make some progress, but it is very,

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very slow because they are trying to take out some heavily fortified areas.

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Apparently they are within striking, artillery striking

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range of the main supply route, going down to the crime area.

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And as soon as they can move artillery up there, then the

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war changes quite significantly.

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So my, my, my issue is in the middle.

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Um, I, I feel Trev that you think that Russia was justified.

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Is that true?

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Uh, they were provoked and they told you what they were gonna do and they,

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that's, that's very different though.

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And provoked, they did what every other superpower would do.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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But do think was justified.

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Do I justified?

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Tricky word.

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So every other superpower would steal, would steal the children, take them

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back to their own country and give them to their childless citizens?

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Can we just stick with the invasion to start with?

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Alright, so the, the invasion is, that's where I'm in the middle, I, I

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agree with you Trevor that America has, is everything that you say they are.

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Was, was NATO justified in...

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No,

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I don't think any major power is justified installing their,

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um, ideals on other countries.

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So what you've said just doesn't necessarily, isn't necessarily the case.

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Yes, but then it comes back to, like every, you know, pseudo invasion that

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America's done, was Russia justified in taking some of the population who

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wanted to be with Russia and doing a full scale invasion of the whole country?

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If, if the majority of the population wanted to be in Russia, Is anyone

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justified in stopping them?

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I don't think you're getting the...

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No, no, no, it's totally different.

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You can't justify an invasion for anything.

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I'm sorry, you can't.

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In 92,

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they had, um, referendums and every province had a majority.

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That wanted to be part of Ukraine, including Crimea.

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Crimea was one of the highest...

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We went through the polls that puts all that into question.

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Yeah, and that's the other part that I disagree with you.

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Polls, if you have a poll to answer...

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Well, you just used one.

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No, no, they had a referendum.

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That's a big difference to a poll.

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My main point is...

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That's a really big difference.

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The main point with Russia is, and the Ukraine is...

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The Ukraine has to give in.

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Whether you think it's justified or not doesn't matter.

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It's, what's done is done.

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What matters is what you do.

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And it's, it's criminal what they're doing in just sending young and now

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middle aged and old men in to be blown up in a minefield for no good reason.

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But you can't point the finger at Australia or Ukraine with

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that, with that including Russia.

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Because they're doing the same thing.

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Well, blame both then.

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I mean, nobody's innocent.

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Nobody's innocent and all sides are to blame.

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How's that?

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Definitely.

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You can't just say, you can't just say Ukraine should sue

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for peace rights right now.

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So can I say all sides, can I say that all sides are at fault?

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Yes, definitely.

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There you go.

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There we go.

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I'm happy with it.

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But I think Ukraine has to give in.

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No, they won't.

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Well, they won't.

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Do you think they should?

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No, I don't think they should.

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So you've, how, you got any sons?

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You got a son?

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No, no, no, no, that's not the point.

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No, it is the point.

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It is precisely the point, John, that young men are being sent to a battlefield

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where there is no hope of victory.

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And they're getting slaughtered.

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Um, yes, but equally on both sides.

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Russia invaded.

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So they're sending their young men in.

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The point, yes, but the point is Ukraine is throwing young men against machine

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guns in the same way that The British told our boys to get out of the trench and

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start running towards those machine guns.

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And we said at the time...

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The difference is they're defending their own country.

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They don't.

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That's a huge difference.

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The big thing about it is they're both hopeless wastes of life that they

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should be ashamed of for continuing.

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Yeah, both sides should be ashamed.

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But you can't say, as soon as Ukraine sues for peace, all right, then, okay,

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yes, we're going to save lives now.

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Yes.

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Alright.

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But Russia wants the whole of Ukraine.

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Live to fight another day.

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You live to fight another day.

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At some point...

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You'll have another war in 10 years.

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You may well do, but guess what?

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You get 10 years to regroup, and you get to save lives.

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Yeah, but you've got 10 years.

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That gives the Russians 10 years of opportunity to get

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themselves set up for it too.

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You know what should happen?

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Everyone in favour of this should grab their...

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21 year old son, put him in the tank and send him off with a kiss.

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So you're telling me I'm not in favour of it?

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No, you are.

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You're telling me that they should keep fighting.

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I'm telling you the Ukrainians should stop and you're saying

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they should keep fighting.

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You're saying more young men should be sent into a hopeless battle.

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I'm saying, it is a hopeless battle.

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The evidence is the line's not moving.

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The Russians have fortified that line.

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It's not moving.

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It's not worth the cost of human life to regain some territory so that

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you can call it Ukrainian territory.

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It's not worth it.

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It's not worth it must be worth it for them.

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Because their country's being voted.

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It's only, it's, it's not worth it to, it's easy for, it's easy for the

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people in charge to send young men in there if they're not their young men.

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It's easy for people to sit back here and say, Ukrainians should fight till the last

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Ukrainian, and they shouldn't give up.

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Well, it's not them who are actually doing the fighting and the dying, so,

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so someone, the dying Australia then.

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So if someone invaded Australia for whatever reason, take out the, the

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theological of it, so, so if someone invaded and took over the top half, we

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could just, we just sue for peace and say, all right, you can have that top half now.

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Yes, if there was a trench line, heavily fortified that invading forces had set

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up, and it was a hopeless situation to try and breach that trench, then yes, I

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would say Let's give up, regroup, save our men, and live to fight another day.

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And if I was in Ukraine, you don't need the hypothetical.

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If I was in charge of Ukraine, I'd be saying, Let's, uh,

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let's not try and breach this.

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Let's...

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Regroup, and we're going to have to settle a new border.

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So when the Nazis invaded Western Europe, Uh, the UK should have

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just said, Okay, that's it.

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War's over.

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We'll sue for peace.

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Well, they had a chance of winning.

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The Ukrainians don't.

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The Ukrainians do.

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I think that's...

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They don't have a chance.

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The Ukrainians do, yeah.

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They don't have a chance.

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They do.

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It's hopeless.

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But it was hopeless as day one of the war.

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They were going to be invaded.

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They were going to be overrun within a matter of days.

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No, no, it was worth fighting then.

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I'm not saying they shouldn't have been fighting then, but now that this line's

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been established, heavily fortified...

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And it's been broken.

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They've taken Robitine.

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No, it hasn't.

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There's no Brit...

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There's no, there's no count...

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successful counter offensive.

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I just think you're misjudging it, Trevor, because, you know, it's one of those

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things, a war's not over in 90 minutes.

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A war takes a very long time to get, uh, get moving and that sort of stuff.

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When the breakout actually happens, then you will see, then you will see either

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a very successful Ukrainian counter offensive or a very successful Russian.

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What, what would you say if in 12 months time, it's apparent the line never shifted

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to where we're talking about today?

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If it was in 12 months time, then I'd actually, then, then I'd actually.

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And another 5, 000 young Ukrainian men have died between now and then.

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Would you just say, oh, that's a shame, got it, got that one, gosh, sorry.

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I dunno.

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I don't know what I'd say, but I think to myself, you the line, what to say?

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If the line, if the line hasn't shifted in 12 months time, then I think then

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he is that at that stage then he is actually gotta throw in the town and

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say, look and go to the bastard in Moscow and say, right, you can keep

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what you've already taken, but you know you're not gonna take anymore.

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What do you say took all those Ukrainian women who have lost their sons, brothers,

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husbands, fathers, Between now and in the next 12 months if the line doesn't

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move, and it's, and they're wasted.

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I don't think you can actually argue that the line hasn't moved.

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No, I agree with Scott there, and, and you can also say, it's like World War One.

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No one, no, everyone was going to keep the war going while

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they thought they could win.

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As soon as Germany realised that they couldn't win, the war was over.

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And it'll be the same here.

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As soon as one side realises that they can't win, Then it'll be over.

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At the moment, both sides think they can win.

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Yeah, I'd, if I can jump in, I don't follow this a hell of a lot.

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That's, like, I'm kind of on board a little bit of both.

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So I think, like, there's a shocking loss of life, which is terrible,

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and I also very much object to sending people to war, generally

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from the, you know, political arm.

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Um, so, but I also do feel that...

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If the Ukrainian people do want to try, then they also do have a

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right to try breaching the line, if that's what they want to do.

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But I wouldn't like the idea coming from on top.

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So, like, I think ideally everyone needs to opt in.

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These are the odds.

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I think it should be Zelensky versus Putin.

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Bare knuckles, fight to the death.

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Winner takes all.

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But the point being is that, like, at some point the Ukrainians...

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May not want to roll over and just take it and they may want to make a stand and

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it might result in a shocking loss of life and they probably have the right

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to do that if that's their choice.

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But yeah, and they need to make the choice around whether the

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sacrifice justifies the outcome.

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Soldiers on the front line are not given a choice.

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They're arresting people in Ireland to extradite them back to the Ukraine.

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Because they're saying to writing to the citizens and saying, well,

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to the countries and saying, this Ukrainian citizen is there in Ireland.

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Um, and we want him back here in the Ukraine because he's got to fight.

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That's what's going on.

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There are also, there are also troops on the ground in Ukraine,

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fighting for Ukraine, raising money so that they can keep going.

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Of course there would be.

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I'm fairly sure that my Russian friends, given the choice, would be there in

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the front lines fighting against Putin.

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Uh, your Russian friends would be fighting against Russia.

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Yes.

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Right.

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Why don't they?

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Because they know what it's like to live under Putin.

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Why don't they?

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Well, uh...

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Because they find themselves getting shot.

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Right, right.

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They're gonna volunteer for the Ukrainian army.

Speaker:

Well, yeah, but it's not their territory, so...

Speaker:

I'm fairly certain there's a lot of Ukrainians on the front

Speaker:

line who don't want to be there.

Speaker:

Possibly in every war that and would in every war.

Speaker:

That's true.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So that's one of the shocking things about war though, right?

Speaker:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

. Yeah.

Speaker:

If that's the case, then I think that, you know, Ukrainian,

Speaker:

like the Ukrainian should stop.

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People don't wanna be there and don't wanna sacrifice a lot of men against a

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line that isn't currently budging then.

Speaker:

And, and, and the ones who've done what?

Speaker:

Oh, it, it's punching.

Speaker:

And the ones who do want to be there have potentially been fed a whole heap of

Speaker:

bullshit propaganda about how we're just going to win next week when all this other

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stuff arrives and they wouldn't even know.

Speaker:

They're just relying on their superiors who are telling them, spitting them a line

Speaker:

to say one more week guys, one more week.

Speaker:

Anyway, look, you know what?

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Uh, a year from today, uh, Leon's birthday, 12th of September, 2024,

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let's just revisit where the line was and where, uh, how many lives

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were lost in the meantime and.

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And see what people think.

Speaker:

But anyway, that's that.

Speaker:

And what, there's one other issue, John, while I've got you there, you

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said something about my, you said something about polls, my love of polls

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or my reliance on polls, what you said.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

It seems in recent episodes, the last, oh, six months or so, you,

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you've, you've really come to pointing out a lot of polls now.

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I just think polls in general don't have much credibility.

Speaker:

The one, if we go back to the voice one, all my, my, my boys are all under, um, 30.

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Not one of them, until recently, knew that there was a, uh, a referendum on.

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None of them ever would answer a phone for a poll, so there's no

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credibility in that poll, I think.

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It's only grasping a minority, and you've already just got to ask who is conducting

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the poll, and what answer that they want.

Speaker:

So, I just don't see polls, you know, for years.

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Um, all right.

Speaker:

I can take a punt at that.

Speaker:

Like, um, so polls are becoming a little bit more reliable from the fact

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that nobody has a landline anymore.

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And so it's very hard to take representative statistical samples,

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but they are representative and a good indication.

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So I wouldn't hold it as gospel.

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But they are an indication of what's going on.

Speaker:

So like you'll see in, yeah, like your points are valid, although there's a lot

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of people who don't know what's going on or, but you know, you ask them questions

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and you can structure the questions very carefully, and you know, they can

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provide an indication of what's going on.

Speaker:

I'll be interested to see how close to the policy it's referring to me.

Speaker:

Either way.

Speaker:

It's not looking very good at the moment.

Speaker:

No, I think it's gonna be lost.

Speaker:

Yeah, I think it's gonna be lost as well.

Speaker:

So there goes my argument about polls, . Well, next time I raise a poll, you can

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just, you can just look at the chapters in the podcast and skip it again.

Speaker:

The next section, John.

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If you don't like the data's good.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Okay, on that point, we're done and dusted.

Speaker:

We're gonna go.

Speaker:

We're in the chat room, it's, uh, you've been making your comments, good on you.

Speaker:

Next week, episode 400.

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We'll do a bit of a review of things, I think.

Speaker:

That's what we'll do.

Speaker:

Holy shit, 400?

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

What the hell have I done with my life over the last six years?

Speaker:

Devoted to the noble cause of podcasting, Scott.

Speaker:

I reckon 400 means eight years, doesn't it?

Speaker:

It does, yeah.

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But Scott went walkabout for two.

Speaker:

That's true.

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Yeah, so, yep.

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Well, I've been around for more than half of those, yeah.

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Very good.

Speaker:

Okay, I'm gonna go.

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Gotta call it off.

Speaker:

Okay, thanks guys.

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Thanks, uh, John and Liam in particular.

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Everybody says goodnight.

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We'll talk to you next time.

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Bye for now.

Speaker:

Black History Month you find...

Speaker:

Ridiculous.

Speaker:

Why?

Speaker:

You're gonna relegate my history to a month?

Speaker:

Oh, come on.

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What do you do with yours?

Speaker:

Which month is White History Month?

Speaker:

Well...

Speaker:

Well, come on.

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Tell me.

Speaker:

Well, um...

Speaker:

I'm Jewish.

Speaker:

Okay, which month is Jewish history month?

Speaker:

Uh, there isn't one.

Speaker:

Oh.

Speaker:

Oh.

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Why not?

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Do you want one?

Speaker:

No, no.

Speaker:

No, I don't either.

Speaker:

I don't want a black history month.

Speaker:

Black history is American history.

Speaker:

How are we going to get rid of racism?

Speaker:

Stop talking about it.

Speaker:

I'm going to stop calling you a white man.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.

Speaker:

I know you as Mike Wallace, you know me as Morgan Freeman.

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The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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