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Episode 390 - Cluster Bombs and Cluster F#@ks
In this episode we discuss:
(00:43) Intro
(03:02) Robo Debt
(14:44) Cluster Bombs
(17:43) NATO in Asia
(26:33) Calvary Hospital
(28:57) More Polls
(31:36) Culture - Fixed or Evolving?
(36:47) Challenging the Indigenous Culture Industry
(43:49) Malik on Culture
(49:19) Ray Halpin
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Transcript
Suburban Eastern Australia.
Speaker:An environment that has over time evolved some extraordinarily
Speaker:unique groups of homo sapiens.
Speaker:But today we observe a small tribe akin to a group of meka that gather together
Speaker:atop a small mound to watch question and discuss the current events of their city,
Speaker:their country, and their world at large.
Speaker:Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the
Speaker:Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:Hello and welcome.
Speaker:Yes, we're back again.
Speaker:We're a day early.
Speaker:It's Monday night and we're doing the podcast.
Speaker:The reason is that my wife is turning 60 this week, so we're going away
Speaker:with the kids and I'll be up somewhere near Montville tomorrow night.
Speaker:Celebrating that.
Speaker:And so we've pushed forward the podcast and here we are.
Speaker:So if you've made it into the chat room to join us, congratulations.
Speaker:We'll do our best to entertain you.
Speaker:I'm Trevor a k a, the Iron.
Speaker:Fist with me as always, Scott, the Velvet.
Speaker:Glove.
Speaker:Good day.
Speaker:Trevor.
Speaker:Good day.
Speaker:Joe Goodday listeners.
Speaker:I hope everyone's well.
Speaker:And Joe the tech guy.
Speaker:Evening all.
Speaker:So, yeah, looks like we might have a problem with Facebook
Speaker:with this live stream.
Speaker:It was coming up with error signals, but we'll see what happens with that.
Speaker:So on the agenda, look, there's not, is there a lot happening in
Speaker:politics and news around the world?
Speaker:robo debt, report came out from the Royal Commission, so we'll talk about that.
Speaker:We've got the USA deciding that it's perfectly fine to send
Speaker:cluster bombs to the Ukraine.
Speaker:Talk about that.
Speaker:NATO wants to expand into Asia cause.
Speaker:It's perfectly normal for the North Atlantic Treaty
Speaker:organization to be involved in Southeast Asia and the Pacific.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:our friend Paul Keening had something to say about that.
Speaker:and oh, what Australians think of Americans was in a poll, depending how we
Speaker:go, because those things may not take that long and it might force me to actually
Speaker:start talking about some indigenous issues and we might end up talking about
Speaker:culture and what culture is and how culture is mixed up in the idea of race.
Speaker:And these are concepts that we need to understand if we're to talk
Speaker:coherently about the whole debate over the voice and the yes and the no.
Speaker:So I'm fearful, hopeful that I told Yes.
Speaker:Culture is what your got HA has in Australia doesn't, right?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So that's where we're heading on this one.
Speaker:See what ra rabbit holes we end up in.
Speaker:If you're in the chat room and there's one person there right now,
Speaker:you can make a comment, and we'll try and incorporate if we can.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:Ah, Scott, robo debt.
Speaker:A fairly scathing report has come down about politicians and public servants.
Speaker:What was your thoughts about the report?
Speaker:I thought that, the winner of it goes to that, no, I can't even remember
Speaker:which, which, publication it was.
Speaker:But someone had actually come out and said that, if Peter Dutton, if Peter Dutton
Speaker:doesn't get sick of his politics, Lark, he could go and become a comedian because
Speaker:he was suggesting that it was wrong.
Speaker:That Shorten and Albanese were trying to make politics outta the whole thing.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:You know, and I think that hit the nail right on the head because,
Speaker:you know, it's got these, it's got their fingerprints all over it.
Speaker:The Tories were completely involved in it.
Speaker:They pushed it and they were behind it.
Speaker:So I think everything that went wrong with it has to be sheeted home to them.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:They started it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:They're in control of it.
Speaker:It is entirely their responsibility.
Speaker:Now, they did lie and that type of thing to try and make out the Labor Party
Speaker:started it, but clearly they didn't.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:It's, it was a bloody disgrace actually, you know?
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:I cannot believe that the public service has been so thoroughly
Speaker:muted that they would, that no one actually stuck their hand up and said,
Speaker:minister, you can't just do this.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:You know, because I'm on a very good wicket, but there was six
Speaker:months where I had to claim the doll because I was unemployed.
Speaker:Now had they have actually done an averaging on my income that I earned
Speaker:in the second six months of that year.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Then they would've come back and said, well, you've clearly over, you've clearly
Speaker:claimed when you shouldn't be claiming.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Now that is wrong.
Speaker:And it's just one of those things that I cannot believe that no one
Speaker:actually put their hand up and said, minister, you can't do this.
Speaker:The sort of people, the sort of people who are victims of this
Speaker:were the least equipped to mm-hmm.
Speaker:Battle against it.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You could just imagine that they were the ones who were like, oh my God, you
Speaker:know, their ability to go through their records and sort things out and deal with
Speaker:the department and have the time to do that, they were the, the least equipped.
Speaker:So see for bugger, if it had actually happened to me, I would've ignored it.
Speaker:And I just would've said, look, if you want to come after her and sue
Speaker:me, sue me, cuz I'll stand up in court and tell you where you're wrong.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:That's no problem at all.
Speaker:You know, and I wouldn't have been intimidated, but.
Speaker:I've got a fairly good head on my shoulders and that type of stuff.
Speaker:I would know exactly what to say.
Speaker:You were not a typical Dole recipient.
Speaker:No, I wasn't.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I wasn't.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I got it for that six months when I got tapped on the shoulder up
Speaker:here in Rockhampton, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's just, but the people that did actually, you know, I cannot believe
Speaker:that they were that intimidated that they took their own lives.
Speaker:Well, they clearly did.
Speaker:I mean, it's not Yeah, I know.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:I I think if you weren't in a good space to begin with and that's
Speaker:why you were receiving government assistance, this could very well
Speaker:be what tipped you over the edge.
Speaker:Oh, exactly.
Speaker:And, and it was all about punishing poor people.
Speaker:It was seeing be, being seen to be tough whilst not actually caring about
Speaker:the billions of dollars hidden in The Bahamas or wherever it was that,
Speaker:Malcolm Turnbull had his dollars.
Speaker:But, but you know, you can just feel that sort of, that Christian fingerprint
Speaker:on all this where if you are poor, then there's this Christian judgment
Speaker:that you are not favored by God and that godly people are hardworking, well
Speaker:organized, and if you're not that then you are ungodly and, and a slacker.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and yeah, that was clearly in Morrison's head when he
Speaker:kicked the whole thing off.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:As the whole thing was turning bad, the public servants were
Speaker:cowed to their masters and didn't want to, stand up to them.
Speaker:So they were, you know, properly for career advancement reasons, wanting to
Speaker:try and achieve what their political masters wanted rather than what was
Speaker:good and proper country control best.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:It's one of those things, you know, I heard on the podcast this morning
Speaker:that I was listening to, I think it was the, I can't remember, it's called
Speaker:the ABC Daily News or whatever it is.
Speaker:There was a, they went into it in depth and they had a sound bite from Morrison
Speaker:and that sort of stuff, and he was beating his chest saying that, 80, you
Speaker:know, however many million go out to work every day and that type of thing.
Speaker:They expect that we're gonna have a tough cop on the beat over welfare recipients.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, the whole language of it was really very sickening actually.
Speaker:Meanwhile, they throw money at people like Barnaby Joyce for a non-existent report.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Pricewaterhouse Keepers and other consultancies for nothing.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:people running detention centers with Harvey.
Speaker:Zero people in there, Harvey, like they'll throw money at the other end.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Willynilly.
Speaker:And yet these people.
Speaker:It is disgusting and well will things change?
Speaker:You know, hopefully out of all this, it will depend a little bit on what
Speaker:happens to some of the players in this down the track, whether they
Speaker:end up, in jail or other things.
Speaker:I was gonna say, I'm glad to see that criminal charges have been recommended.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So hopefully down the track in two or three years time or something.
Speaker:When a minister is putting pressure on a public servant, the public servant
Speaker:will think, well, I don't want to be.
Speaker:who's this lady in this one?
Speaker:Who's the main culprit?
Speaker:Campbell.
Speaker:Catherine Campbell, their names is, is I am not going to be
Speaker:another Catherine Campbell.
Speaker:And so no.
Speaker:Mm Um, hopefully what happens to her is an example that scares a lot
Speaker:of public servants over the next decades into doing the right thing.
Speaker:That's how things will change, I think.
Speaker:Change the culture.
Speaker:we'll see.
Speaker:So, yeah, Dutton you mentioned was sort of suggesting that labor was too gleeful
Speaker:in the way it was talking about this issue and incredibly, James Campbell
Speaker:of NewsCorp hard right wing NewsCorp guy basically blasted Dutton for
Speaker:suggesting it, which was interesting.
Speaker:And I think there's some elements of NewsCorp and the right which have given
Speaker:up on Dutton, and I think that's right.
Speaker:He, he may not survive Unelectable.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I think they're just doing the sums on the popularity and, and they're
Speaker:thinking, well, there's no points just.
Speaker:Loyally supporting this guy.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:You know, he, we'll drop bombs on him when we need to in order to get
Speaker:another liberal leader and his position.
Speaker:Fuck.
Speaker:Who are they gonna put instead?
Speaker:The caliber of stuff there is just horrendous.
Speaker:Who are they gonna forget?
Speaker:No, it's because of the success of the Teals and I don't begrudge them
Speaker:their success because, you know, they did actually take out the
Speaker:moderate wing of the liberal party.
Speaker:You know, you had those, you had those moderate held seats and that type
Speaker:of thing that were taken by them.
Speaker:I don't begrudge them that, because I thought to myself, they had a very
Speaker:good campaign line when they said, yes, of course you could vote for Josh,
Speaker:but you're gonna end up with Barnaby.
Speaker:You know, that is a very solid line for them to take.
Speaker:They were actually, when they're actually talking to those people that had a
Speaker:moderate voice, and they were saying to him, yes, you can vote for Josh, but
Speaker:you're gonna end up voting for Barnaby.
Speaker:And that is the, what's wrong with Barnaby Barnaby's an idiot.
Speaker:He might become leader again.
Speaker:Apparently they're not happy with Little Proud.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I know they're not happy with Little Proud, but you know, that that would be
Speaker:suicide for them to go back to Barnaby Joyce, because Barnaby Joyce is an idiot.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But an electable idiot electable in his own electorate.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:He his own electorate.
Speaker:He's electable, but you know, he's, he actually said that
Speaker:he takes no responsibility for what happens to the liberals.
Speaker:But you know, they, they were actually mentioning him by name and that type
Speaker:of thing in the, in the campaign.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, he's a fucking tool.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Well, you know, in a democracy, if people aren't performing, then
Speaker:the voters just vote 'em out.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Well, assuming that the voters realize that they're not performing, Yes.
Speaker:And they get snowballed by, certain media interests.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So I would've thought the Labor Party's got probably at least three or four
Speaker:terms left in them because the, the liberals haven't learnt anything.
Speaker:They have just doubled down on their nonsense.
Speaker:You've got, Dutton talking about nuclear power.
Speaker:He's refusing to accept that the renewable energy is cheaper than nuclear power.
Speaker:No, no, no.
Speaker:But nuclear power is there for a reason, because all the time
Speaker:we're talking about nuclear power.
Speaker:We're not talking about renewables, and it allows us to burn coal for a bit longer.
Speaker:That's why nuclear powers there.
Speaker:It's a distraction.
Speaker:Distraction.
Speaker:It's perfect.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:I suppose anyway, it's just one of those things like, you know, but it, it, it
Speaker:might well be a distraction, but people are actually gonna be just, they're just
Speaker:gonna be saying, well, no, fuck him.
Speaker:I'm just not interested.
Speaker:So I just think to myself that, they're, they're sort of lemming le they're being
Speaker:like lemmings and that sort of stuff.
Speaker:They're all just stepping off in, into the, into the wild blue yonder
Speaker:and they're not keeping an eye on where they're actually stepping and
Speaker:they're just gonna step into the abyss of their own self-destruction.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:The only thing that'll save them is a massive recession that
Speaker:could be sheeted home to labor.
Speaker:And, you know, if there is a really bad crushing recession, then that
Speaker:might shorten them to only two terms rather than three or four.
Speaker:Well, I suppose so, but no, it's.
Speaker:If, if people start, there's a little secret here that, you know,
Speaker:governments don't really get that well involved in the economy.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But it's about spinning the line that they are responsible.
Speaker:So you're right, particularly in Australian government.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Is, is like a little ship tossed around in a big ocean.
Speaker:There's lots of factors at play that they can't control, but, and
Speaker:most of them are international.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But certainly you can, Catherine managed in the global recession, didn't he?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That spending stimulus did make a difference.
Speaker:Yes, he did make a hell of a difference.
Speaker:Now I was opposed to it at the time, but you know, looking
Speaker:back on it, he was right.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, he targeted the households.
Speaker:He's, you know, he, what was it targeted the households early, wasn't it?
Speaker:Or something like that.
Speaker:It was the line basically put cash in the hands of people who
Speaker:were gonna spend it, not say it.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I remember going to a trade show around that time when people
Speaker:had just got their checks.
Speaker:That was one of the greatest trade shows I've ever been to.
Speaker:People were spending money like you wouldn't believe at that.
Speaker:So it certainly boosted that economy.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:So anyway, we'll see what happens.
Speaker:Along those lines, internationally, things are not going well for, Ukraine
Speaker:and the United, I don't know about that.
Speaker:Well, okay.
Speaker:They are holding their own, you know, they haven't done, the
Speaker:counter offensives gone nowhere.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:The counter Offensives gone.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:And, but Oh yeah.
Speaker:The Allies, they could be waiting for a, the Allies in the
Speaker:First World War went nowhere.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Oh, D-Day landing got the first a hundred meters and then bogged down for a month.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And this is, this is what happens in wars.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Unfortunately, it takes time.
Speaker:Sorry, I take it back.
Speaker:I take it back, things are obviously going well for Ukraine ly.
Speaker:Well, no, I mean, they're not obviously going well for Ukraine and it's
Speaker:all Ukraine just gonna happen for them over the next, if they were up
Speaker:against the second world's, the third largest military in the world and
Speaker:everything else, and everyone thought it would be over in two or three days.
Speaker:What are we, 16 months later?
Speaker:They're still fighting
Speaker:anyway, according to, reports.
Speaker:Well, America's agreed from from rte.com Yes.
Speaker:To supply.
Speaker:America's agreed to supply cluster bombs.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:It has, yes.
Speaker:To the Ukrainians, but the cluster bombs that were going outta date
Speaker:anyway, and that had manufacturing tolerances that were fairly shit a and
Speaker:have probably only got worse over time.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So they're not getting the shiny new cluster bombs.
Speaker:They're getting the old ones, which will, half of which won't explode and will leave
Speaker:unexploded ordinance all over the, yes.
Speaker:The, the, the countryside until some kid decides to pick it up and play with it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Or a farmer runs a tractor over it or something like that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So, my goodness me, what be a decision the Soviet occupation by
Speaker:then, anyway, won't it, Trevor?
Speaker:Well, that's, if they think that, sure.
Speaker:But they don't, they think they're gonna win and that they're going
Speaker:to litter their own territory.
Speaker:The Ukrainian territory with unexploded cluster bombs.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:What a terrible decision.
Speaker:What a terrible decision.
Speaker:And it just continues.
Speaker:So, but it's all right because none of them are signatories to the
Speaker:whatever it is, arm's convention that limits cluster bombs.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:America's not a signatory to that.
Speaker:So they haven't breached an international treaty by supplying the cluster bombs.
Speaker:Presumably.
Speaker:Ukraine isn't either.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Ukraine isn't the US isn't.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:Want miss that when you need St.
Speaker:Diana to go and bang some heads together?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:She was big on the, she was big on the cluster bombs.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That's Ukraine.
Speaker:NATO has been talking about setting up office, a branch
Speaker:office in Tokyo, in Japan.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:And the French, fortunately have been saying that's not a good idea.
Speaker:And we, the French, when have the French.
Speaker:Ever gonna get something that was suggested by another country?
Speaker:Sometimes their recalcitrant works out well.
Speaker:I think so.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:I mean, it is the North Atlantic Treaty organization designed
Speaker:to point missiles at Russia.
Speaker:Hey, come on.
Speaker:The French are only new members that don't count.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And they're talking about creating this shop in Japan.
Speaker:What possible purpose could they have except mischief?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:E exchange of, technologies.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:What do you think, Scott, is it legitimate for NATO to, to, join up
Speaker:with Japan and other Asian countries?
Speaker:I don't think it's, I don't think it's legitimate to have these.
Speaker:You know, post-Soviet, alliances anymore.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, because the, it was clearly a, it was clearly designed in the
Speaker:forties and that type of thing as a, as a countermeasure to the Soviet Union.
Speaker:So now that the Soviet Union no longer exists as, as a countermeasure
Speaker:to Russian expansionism.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So you're saying it shouldn't be a NATO even in, in Europe?
Speaker:Is that what you're saying it, Scott?
Speaker:No, I don't think so.
Speaker:Yeah, I don't think, I don't, I think it's outlived its purpose.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And having said that, though, the, the Russians are clearly expansionary
Speaker:and that type of thing, so I think that, it's quite legitimate for the
Speaker:Europeans to guard against that.
Speaker:And Finland has joined up, and Sweden has too.
Speaker:So you're saying it's legitimate to have a NATO then?
Speaker:Yes, it is now, because, you know, you've got the, you've got.
Speaker:Prior to this invasion, it had become irrelevant.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It had.
Speaker:Now it's, it had become irrelevant regain Now, now it's become, now it's
Speaker:become relevant again because the Russians clearly can't be trusted.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:we've diverted there just back to Asia.
Speaker:so I don't think it's, I don't think it's right for them to set up anywhere in Asia
Speaker:though, because it depends if they're trying to recruit countries, probably not.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:But what, what are they doing there is the question.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Well, well I would've thought that if, if you've got anything about, sharing
Speaker:of technology and that type of thing, you could do that very easily over,
Speaker:you know, you just gotta fly people and that sort of stuff and have,
Speaker:have a meeting and, yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Maybe we could look at what the NATO Secretary General Jens
Speaker:Stoltenberg said about the matter.
Speaker:He sounds go Norwegian or he, Dutch Dunno where he is from.
Speaker:He said, we should not make the same mistake with China.
Speaker:And other authoritarian regimes.
Speaker:He said his comment is seen as drawing a link between the Ukraine and Taiwan.
Speaker:Quote, what is happening in Europe today?
Speaker:Could happen in Asia tomorrow.
Speaker:He said, so the head of NATO wants to be there because they don't wanna
Speaker:make the same mistake with China that they did with Russia, seemingly.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I can understand that.
Speaker:But don't you think it would have more legitimacy if the, if the Chinese were
Speaker:contained by a alliance between the United States, India, someone local, someone
Speaker:local in the area like the Americans?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, we're really close.
Speaker:You know, Americans pacification.
Speaker:I know the Americans aren't local, but they are, they are the, they
Speaker:are now the second superpower in the world and that type of thing.
Speaker:So I think they've got to have some sort of presence.
Speaker:and Japan and the Philippines are both American colonies.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:It's their back.
Speaker:It's their backyard's, their backyard from America.
Speaker:Well, is America's backyards because they have expanded, because
Speaker:nowhere is not their backyard.
Speaker:Deepest, darkest.
Speaker:Africa is America's backyard.
Speaker:As far as America's concerned.
Speaker:Well, America's not really involved in Africa because
Speaker:Africa won't have him there.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:anyway, the French president, Emmanuel Macron has put his foot down insisting
Speaker:such geographical expansion would risk shifting the alliance remit too far
Speaker:from its original North Atlantic focus.
Speaker:He's not in favor of it.
Speaker:and he reckons the Japanese authorities have told them that they're not
Speaker:actually attached to it either.
Speaker:So according to Macron, the Japanese don't want to, don't wanna be involved in it.
Speaker:So see where that ends up.
Speaker:I've got no problem with that.
Speaker:I mean, it's just one of those things, you know, like I said, if they really
Speaker:want to get involved, then they can have meetings and that type of thing
Speaker:that, you know, we've got, Albanese is on his way over there now, isn't he?
Speaker:Over there to NATO meeting?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Why is Al, why, why is Australia involved in a NATO meeting?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Well, Australian New Zealand are part of five eyes.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Five eyes.
Speaker:five eyes.
Speaker:But as opposed report to NATO via the US and the uk.
Speaker:In the uk Yeah.
Speaker:Just cuz in the last few decades there was never a war that going on that
Speaker:Australia didn't wanna get involved in.
Speaker:So, How it seems.
Speaker:Mm, trust if you want a straight shooter on foreign policy trust, Paul Keating.
Speaker:He came out with a statement as he's seen, what's happening with NATO in
Speaker:Japan and Albanese heading over there.
Speaker:And, according to Paul Keating, ex Prime Minister, president Macron
Speaker:of France is right to warn NATO away from any expansion into Asia.
Speaker:He says, the Europeans have been fighting each other for the better
Speaker:part of 300 years, including giving them the rest of us two world wars.
Speaker:Exporting that malicious poison to Asia would be akin to Asia,
Speaker:welcoming the plague upon itself.
Speaker:And of all the people on the international stage, the supreme fool amongst them
Speaker:is Jens Stoltenberg, head of nata.
Speaker:Stoltenberg by instinct and by policy, is simply an accident on its way to happen.
Speaker:And, according to heating, I, I think he's got a bit of a selective memory.
Speaker:Heating has.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And it's like, you know, Japan didn't invade China and
Speaker:the whole of Southeast Asia.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:No, nothing to do with Europe at all.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:Good point.
Speaker:Well, the second World War was a global war.
Speaker:It started in Europe, but it ended up in, it ended up in the Pacific.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But, but Japan invaded China in the thirties, early thirties.
Speaker:No, I know that, that, that was, I think they got kicked off in
Speaker:the mid thirties, didn't they?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Something like that before the Second World War happened.
Speaker:Anyway.
Speaker:Committed a few atrocities along the way.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:No, the rape Apian King was in the thirties.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it was, it was said at the time in Time Magazine that it was, it was
Speaker:very hard to get excited about because it Yellow Man Killing Yellow Man.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, it's, Yeah.
Speaker:Whereas with these Ukrainians, they're white guys like us.
Speaker:Yes, exactly.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Can't have that.
Speaker:No, no, no.
Speaker:They're not.
Speaker:They're Russians.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Keating says about Stoltenberg in February, he was drawing parallels
Speaker:between Russia's assault on Ukraine and China saying we should not
Speaker:make the same mistake with China.
Speaker:That is, that China should be superintendent by the West.
Speaker:And strategically circumscribed, olberg in his jaundice view, view overlooks
Speaker:the fact that China represents 20% of humanity and now possesses the
Speaker:largest economy in the world and has no record of attacking other states.
Speaker:Unlike the United States whose bidding Stoltenberg is happy to
Speaker:do, Stoltenberg conducts himself as an American agent rather than
Speaker:a leader for European security.
Speaker:And Emmanuel Macron is doing the world a service.
Speaker:Putting a spike into Stolbergs wheel is Paul Keating.
Speaker:It doesn't hold back.
Speaker:He's been no quoted by a number of people internationally.
Speaker:You enjoyed that.
Speaker:we talked about Calvary Hospital mm-hmm.
Speaker:Last week and how the a c t government, how about the poor
Speaker:Catholics were being pro persecuted?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yet again, meanwhile, the sisters who actually run the place, were
Speaker:really looking to get out and get into sort of end of life hospice.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Which is what they're suited for, rather than running a multidisciplinary hospital
Speaker:anyway, which had to provide, you know, abortion and also, reproductive services.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So crosses attached to the hospital were taken down, and the Goulburn
Speaker:Archdiocese, Archbishop Christopher Pra was not happy and he said, The very
Speaker:first thing a totalitarian government does when it seizes Christian assets,
Speaker:the very first thing they all do, they take down the crucifix when the
Speaker:religious cage is shaken by a wolf.
Speaker:When the cross is taken down, we realize how important our
Speaker:religion is when it's under attack.
Speaker:And right now, today, over at the public hospital, today is Sunday of all days.
Speaker:They picked is the Christian gathering time.
Speaker:They're taking the very big blue cross from outside the
Speaker:public hospital down today.
Speaker:There was a collective wrenching going on, but there was a sense of
Speaker:hope because they realized you can take down our physical CR of fixes,
Speaker:but you'll never take away the cross.
Speaker:Jesus's cross inside my heart.
Speaker:All very dramatic except the a c t Health Minister said, taking
Speaker:down the cross was entirely to the decision of the Calvary Healthcare.
Speaker:We've been very clear about that whole time.
Speaker:Any decision around those items, how and when they were removed
Speaker:was entirely the dec decision of Calvary and Calvary admitted.
Speaker:Yeah, it was our decision.
Speaker:We just decided to take 'em down cuz we thought my moms mow well,
Speaker:sounds like some Marion going on there, doesn't it?
Speaker:Oh, that's right.
Speaker:Love to be persecuted even when you're not.
Speaker:Yes, they, they do love it, don't they?
Speaker:Motivation complex is one from the early days.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:That's, maybe that's the last we'll hear of Calvary Hospital in Christians.
Speaker:Maybe.
Speaker:We'll see.
Speaker:This is not gonna be the last pair of Christians.
Speaker:No more polling.
Speaker:this one, there were polls from, pew Research and from the Lowe Institute.
Speaker:And Broman, our listener, Broman, brought it to my attention that
Speaker:there was an article in Crikey.
Speaker:And basically from these polls of particular interest is that Australian
Speaker:skepticism is alive and well.
Speaker:Australians are the only group in the Asian Pacific region that thinks
Speaker:China is now the world's top power.
Speaker:The others thought it was the US and Australia's attitudes to the US
Speaker:have been strongly influenced, not in favor of the US by the Trump era.
Speaker:So we think less of the US and we think China is more powerful
Speaker:when some of our neighbors haven't yet come to that conclusion.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:I looked at some of the results in these polls and some of
Speaker:the stuff was still worrying.
Speaker:looking at countries that have a positive opinion of the us, Australia was one of
Speaker:those 52% favorable, 47% unfavorable.
Speaker:Now be used towards the us.
Speaker:one question was, asking whether USA interferes in the
Speaker:affairs of other countries.
Speaker:All countries basically thought that was the case in Australia, 79% of
Speaker:people said yes, the US interferes in the affairs of other countries.
Speaker:20% of Australians said, no, they don't.
Speaker:I mean, what rock or cave are these people living under or in if you don't
Speaker:think the US is involved in interfering in the affairs of other countries?
Speaker:But my Murdoch's an American, so obviously yes.
Speaker:And and then the question was that the US contributes to peace and
Speaker:stability around the world and 61% of Australians think that and 38%.
Speaker:disagree.
Speaker:So, huh.
Speaker:That was part of the polling of Hugh Research and the lower poll basically
Speaker:showed, that people now are thinking in the ch in Australia, people thinking
Speaker:China is more of a threat than a security than an economic partner.
Speaker:But if, if there is a war involving Taiwan, they don't want
Speaker:Australian troops sent there.
Speaker:So, the majority of Australians don't.
Speaker:So, so anyway, those are some more polls that came through on Crikey.
Speaker:Nothing startling about that.
Speaker:And where we're at, we're at 8 0 5 already.
Speaker:25 minutes left.
Speaker:Goodness me, I'm probably gonna have to talk about indigenous affairs and culture.
Speaker:Racist.
Speaker:Yeah, the loins.
Speaker:Everybody.
Speaker:I've been reading a book.
Speaker:culture, the story of us from cave art to K-Pop by Martin Honer.
Speaker:It's been a good one, and the more I think about the indigenous affairs,
Speaker:the voice, and it's trying to work out culture and how culture fits into
Speaker:things and how we think about culture.
Speaker:So here's an idea.
Speaker:You could look at culture in two different ways.
Speaker:One culture belongs to the people born into it and must be defended
Speaker:against outside interference.
Speaker:Culture is a form of property that belongs to the people who live it.
Speaker:That's one way of looking at culture, and I would suggest that's a view of
Speaker:culture that's being encouraged for Australian indigenous communities.
Speaker:The second way of looking at culture is that culture is made not only from
Speaker:the resources of one community, but from encounters with other cultures.
Speaker:Culture evolves through circulation and reading this book where he traces
Speaker:the history of different cultural EV events throughout human history.
Speaker:It's pretty clear that the second version is what actually happens.
Speaker:That culture is not from one community.
Speaker:It has encounters with other communities, other cultures, and
Speaker:it evolves through circulation.
Speaker:That's what actually happens.
Speaker:And you get rare events where culture is frozen in a kind of a time capsule, and
Speaker:that's when it is through certain events.
Speaker:Frozen out from interaction with other cultures.
Speaker:So, have you guys heard of the Sve cave in France?
Speaker:It's one of the, of the oldest extent cave art.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So it's one of the oldest examples of cave art.
Speaker:And it exists because, tens of thousands of years ago, the entrance to the
Speaker:cave was blocked by a landslide.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And that stopped people going in and defacing it, defacing it, or
Speaker:putting up their own drawings, their own drawings, or Yes.
Speaker:You know, had that cave been open since that time, there's no way the
Speaker:original cave art would've survived the influx of other cultures and
Speaker:the influence of other people.
Speaker:The other example would be, say, Pompeii.
Speaker:With the ashes falling on Pompeii, effectively freezing that culture
Speaker:in place and excavations now allow us to see what it was at that time.
Speaker:And there was another example where the, parents of, Tutton Carmen, it
Speaker:basically left the city that they were living in, created a almost
Speaker:a new religion in a new city.
Speaker:And when they passed away, that city was abandoned and, and covered.
Speaker:And, and it wasn't like there was then a new population in there that,
Speaker:that then adjusted everything and it sort of remained frozen in time.
Speaker:So, so the sort of examples that we have of cultures that have survived intact,
Speaker:untouched for a long period of time.
Speaker:Come about because they haven't had contact with other cultures.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Because that's what happens.
Speaker:Other cultures come in, build upon use, bits and pieces,
Speaker:destroy, and change cultures.
Speaker:They're not they don't stay fixed.
Speaker:They don't remain the property of a group.
Speaker:So in his book, this guy says, if we wanna talk properly about culture,
Speaker:we need a different language from property and ownership, because
Speaker:that's not how culture actually works.
Speaker:And I think one of the issues that we have with indigenous people and their
Speaker:plight and the way we think about things is, appears to me that there is an
Speaker:insistence on maintaining cultural purity and trying to almost freeze in time and
Speaker:take ownership of it for a select group and build a wall around it, if you like.
Speaker:So well, if that's true, then they just all modern civilization.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But they'll take on bits and pieces, exactly when it suits.
Speaker:But to the, to the dismay of the purists, I guess.
Speaker:but I'm guessing even the purists are not animistic, they're probably
Speaker:deepened faithful Christians.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's the hypocrisy of it, right, Joe?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So, here's one I, the more I look at it, the more I think of, indigenous call
Speaker:for a voice and culture is, is there's a lot of similarities with religion.
Speaker:And what if it was a religious group wanting special representation?
Speaker:and what if they were saying, only we Christians know what Christians
Speaker:need and we need a voice made up solely of Christians because we're the
Speaker:experts on the needs of Christians.
Speaker:That's what happens in the uk.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Many of us would suggest that the best thing for Christians would be to hear
Speaker:from some friendly atheists to cause them to question their religious belief.
Speaker:You know what, it'd be good for you lot.
Speaker:Here's some information that calls into question your here ideology.
Speaker:But there's no way that would be accepted in indigenous culture where
Speaker:people are allowed to say, you know what, there's probably some parts of
Speaker:indigenous culture that might probably be leading to some of the issues that
Speaker:the indigenous people are facing.
Speaker:And here's from a study, official Australian study of some sort.
Speaker:I, I got a paragraph from it.
Speaker:So, Family structure for indigenous Australians extends beyond the
Speaker:nuclear family concept, commonly seen in non-indigenous contexts
Speaker:to encompass extended family and community in a collective system of
Speaker:resource sharing that is a testament to their rich cultural heritage.
Speaker:this traditional practice underscores community resilience and unity, though
Speaker:it does present challenges in balancing resources in the face of income disparity.
Speaker:So basically family structure in indigenous Australians is more
Speaker:than just the nuclear family.
Speaker:And what you have is a collective system of resource sharing.
Speaker:I and Heri Ali says the same about Somalis in her book.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Talking about the, the culture shock she felt Yes.
Speaker:Coming into Western Europe a and where historically she would've gone to the
Speaker:tribe to get resources if she was.
Speaker:On hard times.
Speaker:Hey, was the government giving her free money, right?
Speaker:What idiot idiots they were, right?
Speaker:So an article that was speaking about the Canadian experience from the
Speaker:sky, I'll quote from where he goes.
Speaker:I will not dwell too much in the space of the cruel, cynical, and utterly disastrous
Speaker:government decisions that have led to the current state of affairs in indigenous
Speaker:communities, Canadian indigenous communities, but perhaps the single
Speaker:largest enduring difficulty originates in the fact that land on indigenous
Speaker:reserves is not owned by residents in their capacity as individuals.
Speaker:Rather, it is controlled collectively so no person or family can buy,
Speaker:sell, lease, or mortgage their property in the normal manner that
Speaker:the rest of us take for granted.
Speaker:This has had a crushing effect on business formation and land improvement, and
Speaker:is one of the reasons why the housing stock on reserves degrade so quickly.
Speaker:Since no one owns their house in the normal way, there is little
Speaker:financial incentive to invest in any even basic upkeep activities
Speaker:such as mold eradication.
Speaker:indigenous people are no less industrious or and ambitious than anyone else in
Speaker:Canada, but they often must leave their reserve communities to find their fortune.
Speaker:To remain on reserve is in many ways, to exist as a surf within a welfare state.
Speaker:So, so the question of how to resolve this difficulty, he says,
Speaker:obviously does not fall to me.
Speaker:It's something that indigenous communities must determine themselves.
Speaker:It's a wrenching issue because a capital style land ownership system
Speaker:would allow non-indigenous outsiders to buy these communities out, thus
Speaker:undermining the goal of preserving authentic indigenous culture.
Speaker:In some cases, both economic and cultural goals can be achieved, but in other
Speaker:communities, especially in remote areas, There will be wrenching choices to
Speaker:be made pitting jobs against culture.
Speaker:And that strikes me as one of the key problems for indigenous communities
Speaker:is, this communal ownership problem.
Speaker:And that makes sense to me.
Speaker:And I can see that that is part of, inherited sort of cultural trait.
Speaker:And my concern is, or my thinking is that the people who would be
Speaker:on the voice, their business is the indigenous culture industry.
Speaker:If there is a point where you should say, you know what, time to ditch a
Speaker:couple of cultural features because it's not working in a modern.
Speaker:21st century situation.
Speaker:That might be something that has to be said and I think should be said, but the
Speaker:very people likely to be in the voice are the least likely to admit to that need
Speaker:to abandon parts of a culture because they're in the industry of possessing,
Speaker:protecting, owning, fencing off culture.
Speaker:The, the same has been said in the UK about the Muslim representative groups.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Who are very entrenched in the status quo.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:And so the government consult with members of the community.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Who say, well, of course all Muslims don't want gay people in their area.
Speaker:And the gay Muslims say, well, hang on, you haven't asked us.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But the people in charge are the least likely to be liberal in the community.
Speaker:They, they want to defend the status quo because that's what
Speaker:gives them power and authority.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:So that's what I see as, one of the problems of, of, of deciding that, a
Speaker:purely indigenous based voice is going to solve all the problems when I think one
Speaker:of the real major fundamental problems for indigenous people is something that
Speaker:these people are least likely to address.
Speaker:their motivations are for the opposite.
Speaker:So, and it would need an outsider perhaps, to say that who will not
Speaker:be allowed to be on the voice.
Speaker:Found an old article by Kenon Mallick just talking about race and culture
Speaker:and, and how essentially race has been abandoned as a concept and kind
Speaker:of replaced by culture, which is a backdoor way of, of speaking racist race.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I can't really, like, we know that there's no difference between people.
Speaker:Racially, we know scientifically that there's nothing in the dna.
Speaker:We know people are people, so we can't rely on a racial difference argument.
Speaker:But what's happened instead is people have gone, well, of course these people
Speaker:have a different culture and that cultural difference is used in the
Speaker:same way that race is used or used.
Speaker:Race used to be used, so.
Speaker:In this article he says, last week, Sandeep and Rina Mander were
Speaker:denied the chance to adopt a child.
Speaker:Amandas are of Indians seek heritage.
Speaker:Though both born in Britain and the only children needing adoption were white.
Speaker:So Indians seeks in Britain not allowed to adopt a white child.
Speaker:That's bloody ridiculous.
Speaker:And, it speaks to a broader confusion about the relationship
Speaker:between race and culture.
Speaker:A confusion that afflicts anti-racist as much as it does racists.
Speaker:Few people these days claim that whites and Indians are racially incompatible,
Speaker:but many argue that whites and Indians belong to distinct cultures and possess
Speaker:and possess discreet identities.
Speaker:Many argue too that especially for children, it's important
Speaker:not to undermine their sense of identity or create confusion
Speaker:about their cultural attachments.
Speaker:Has anybody seen splitting airs?
Speaker:The Eric Idle film?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:In idle film?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:He's, he's raised by an Indian family, and he claims proclaims very loudly that
Speaker:he's a, he's an Indian, and he has these fantastic Bollywood dream sequences.
Speaker:How long ago was this movie made?
Speaker:Oh, in the 1980s, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:According to Maleek.
Speaker:Just continuing with this story, it's plausible, the council imagines
Speaker:that to be white is to belong to a particular culture, and that non-whites
Speaker:belong to the other cultures.
Speaker:A white child can only be brought up by white parents because otherwise he or
Speaker:she would grow up in the wrong culture.
Speaker:I mean, we have that here in Australia.
Speaker:With indigenous children.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:so, let me just see,
Speaker:talking about the right here.
Speaker:So, traditionally a race was seen as a group of human beings linked by a set of
Speaker:fundamental characteristics, unique to it, that was the traditional view of race.
Speaker:In the post-war world, this concept of race disintegrated
Speaker:racial categories were shown to possess little scientific validity.
Speaker:and after the Holocaust, the idea of racial inferiority or
Speaker:superiority, became a big no-no.
Speaker:But if old fashioned racial science was buried, many of the racial thinking,
Speaker:assumptions of racial thinking survived.
Speaker:It's just that humanity could be divided into discreet groups.
Speaker:Each of which possessed a set of unique characteristics
Speaker:shaped an individual's identity.
Speaker:These ideas came to be race, recast in the language, not of biology, but of culture.
Speaker:Insured cultural differences replaced racial differences, and this was
Speaker:done by both the left and the right.
Speaker:So Marie Lappen in France would say on the right wing, we not only
Speaker:have the right but the duty to defend our national personality and
Speaker:have our right to our difference.
Speaker:So defending the purity of the French culture and from the left,
Speaker:different minority groups, are seen as possessing different cultures,
Speaker:identities, and ways of thinking, and.
Speaker:To confront racism and oppression.
Speaker:Many argue on the left, requires a defense of each group's distinct
Speaker:identities, which is really just repeating the Marie Lapin argument
Speaker:and on both the right and the left.
Speaker:Many now view cultures as fixed bounded entities, each the
Speaker:property only of certain people.
Speaker:Once culture was seen as providing the tools with which to open up and transform
Speaker:the world today, many regard it more as a protective wall to shield its members
Speaker:and to keep out unwanted visitors.
Speaker:there we go, bear's some thoughts.
Speaker:Think about when it comes to the indigenous question and how we
Speaker:think about race and culture.
Speaker:Ove.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Ah, have I got another story here?
Speaker:I wonder if I'll tell the Ray Halton story.
Speaker:I've told this one before.
Speaker:ah, I'll tell this one.
Speaker:So that story that I just read from, Ken and Malick was on his website
Speaker:and in the comment section was a comment by a guy called, Ray Halpin,
Speaker:who I actually reached out to.
Speaker:And we, and then friends on Facebook, it's like, sort of six years ago now.
Speaker:Interesting guy.
Speaker:He sort of ended up on the streets in, in Ireland, like as
Speaker:a, almost as a homeless type guy.
Speaker:And I was saying to him, do you need some money?
Speaker:And he was like, no, no, I'll be right.
Speaker:And he interesting guy.
Speaker:So in response to what Ken and Malik wrote, This is in the comments by Ray
Speaker:Helpin and he said, I'm an unskilled manual laborer, living in Dublin, but
Speaker:I spent the 1990s working in Outback Australia as a field operative in
Speaker:the mining exploration industry.
Speaker:During those years, I came to befriend many aboriginal Australians, and at one
Speaker:stage even considered proposing to one.
Speaker:The Mabo Lands rights decision was a watershed moment.
Speaker:From that point on, the political consciousness of many ordinary
Speaker:aboriginal Australians really flourished.
Speaker:Although at the time, the significance was not grasped by
Speaker:many of the indigenous friends in Mount Isa, they resented the idea.
Speaker:This is his Aboriginal friends in Mount Isa resented the idea that Torres Strait
Speaker:Islanders were getting a percentage of the funding set aside by Canberra for Atsic.
Speaker:Aborigines were the real indigenous Australians, whereas
Speaker:Islanders were something else.
Speaker:I found this sort of rivalry to be depressing cause the, my excessively
Speaker:idealized way of thinking at the time, it resembled a mild form of the
Speaker:kind of racism pervasive throughout the white Australian community.
Speaker:Abes should have been immune from that kind of thing, given their experiences.
Speaker:They should have known better, but they didn't.
Speaker:They were a stubbornly human as any other group.
Speaker:he goes on the issue of exactly what it meant to be an Australian Aboriginal
Speaker:came, became a frequent topic of discussion around the barbecue.
Speaker:Some of my black friends refused to join the discussion
Speaker:because politics irritated them.
Speaker:Others dismissed the whole idea of aboriginality and preferred to
Speaker:concentrate on the apparently less controversial idea of common humanity.
Speaker:There was always one, usually the one who had an arts degree from the University
Speaker:of Queensland who pursued a degree of exclusivity that would've impressed the
Speaker:most fastidious phenologist he'd demand to be referred to by his tribal designation.
Speaker:Even though he often didn't know it and accused his cousins of being yellow
Speaker:rather than black, because some of their distant ancestors turned out
Speaker:to be Afghan Cavaliers when their cousins retaliated pointing to the
Speaker:extraordinary number of white fellas in their accusers pedigree, he'd blanche
Speaker:and say he was proud of all of his ancestors, but you could tell he wasn't.
Speaker:As far as I could tell, the absurdities of black identity were as comical
Speaker:and as potentially dangerous and tragic and veno phenol as those
Speaker:infecting the white identity.
Speaker:I met Australian Aborigines who adapted, adopted an identity for
Speaker:purely cynical reasons because there was funding to be had from it.
Speaker:Its steady work and academic kudos and compensation from mining companies, ime
Speaker:aboriginal Australians who were purists of the most intimidating kind, who condemned
Speaker:all whites as genocidal murderers and assumed a right to kill them wherever and
Speaker:whatever, and felt justified in doing so.
Speaker:these experiences are many more liked them, forced me to reflect long and
Speaker:hard on the pros and cons of identity and into view with growing detestation,
Speaker:the emergence of an illiberal left winging variety of identity politics
Speaker:that in effect deferred very little from its right wing counterpart.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:Thoughts on indigenous issues.
Speaker:All will be reexamined in a bumper indigenous episode.
Speaker:Appear at some point.
Speaker:Did you see Lydia Thorpe's comments?
Speaker:I, I saw, this is 60 minutes.
Speaker:Oh, I dunno.
Speaker:I just saw some headlines.
Speaker:Which comment was that, Joe?
Speaker:Well, specifically, it, it's okay to be black and vote no.
Speaker:and no, it doesn't make us racist.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:I, I refuse to be lumped into the same group.
Speaker:you know, there are different reasons for voting no.
Speaker:And you don't have to be a racist to vote.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Was effectively what she was saying, she classed herself as a progressive No.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Is how she described it as opposed to a racist.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And I would describe the theories that I'm trying to espouse as a rationalist.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:So you can have different reasons for I, I think so, no.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But I think we are just going to see a taring of a whole sway of the
Speaker:country as racists, uneducated bigots.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's what we're gonna see and this is what's gonna happen.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And yeah, I've been keeping a, clipping all sorts of stuff from social media from.
Speaker:Different people who I normally agree with on the left, and they're just going
Speaker:to town when they talk about the racists who are contemplating the no vote.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:one of the Facebook pages I follow was, if you're voting for no, then you
Speaker:know it's as good as a vote for Daton.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And I just put up, what was it, your, your logical fallacy is
Speaker:black and white thinking, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's, these are not two sides of the same coin.
Speaker:You, you can vote no and not be for Mr.
Speaker:Ton.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So it's a complicated topic because it, it's, it's, it's, it's
Speaker:these issues of culture and, and.
Speaker:There's almost a religious reverence for the purity of
Speaker:the culture being maintained.
Speaker:And there's, well, welcome to country has just become, sorry.
Speaker:what's, what's, yeah, it is welcome to country has become the Lord's Prayer over.
Speaker:It has, yes.
Speaker:And a lot of atheist rationalists who would normally object to overtly
Speaker:rich religious happenings are quite happy to wave through Indigenous.
Speaker:Indigenous Oh.
Speaker:Or even spiritual.
Speaker:Yes, indeed.
Speaker:And it's complicated because it is a mixture of feeling sorry for
Speaker:what has happened to the plight of modern day indigenous people who
Speaker:are suffering mixed in with a a, A feeling of compensation for stolen
Speaker:land of what happened to, indigenous people, you know, two 50 years ago.
Speaker:And it's, it's that mixture of those two things that justifies a position
Speaker:that would otherwise be unjustifiable.
Speaker:And it's just illogical at the end of the day.
Speaker:So we'll get to all that and we'll upset a lot of people.
Speaker:Sorry about that.
Speaker:That's just the way it is.
Speaker:I get a bumper episode to come.
Speaker:Oh, I notes are just getting longer and longer on this.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Which is fine.
Speaker:You'll have to send them to me well in advance because I've gotta get across it.
Speaker:But, I'm still leaning towards a yes vote, just to protect it from
Speaker:the Tories more than anything else.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But I understand where you're coming from.
Speaker:You know, it's one of those things, it's not as easy as
Speaker:they are trying to make out.
Speaker:I still don't understand why Albanese wants it as bad as he does.
Speaker:I mean, I would've thought that he could actually take a look at the
Speaker:polls and that sort of stuff and actually sit the people down and say
Speaker:to them, if we put this up now, there's every likelihood we're going to lose.
Speaker:So I don't think it's a good idea for us to go ahead with it.
Speaker:Now, I don't think he's a particularly deep thinker.
Speaker:I think he just, no, he just thinks there's a lot of disadvantaged indigenous
Speaker:people living in terrible circumstances.
Speaker:And, land was stolen and the grievance of that has been
Speaker:transferred through the generations to present day indigenous people.
Speaker:And that's the way a lot of people on the left think.
Speaker:And that's the thinking that he would adopt without questioning.
Speaker:Whether that's actually logically appropriate or not, so Mm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Have we heard anything from Keating over it?
Speaker:he would be in favor of it, I would've thought, because I don't know.
Speaker:his speech that he read Fern speech and all that, I would've thought.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:You know, Scott, we actually spoke about this way back in episode three.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Way back then.
Speaker:Noel Pearson.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Because in episode three we referred to an article where Noel Pearson, was
Speaker:proposing that he wanted a voice to parliament way back then, eight years ago.
Speaker:So yeah, as I was, bloody hell, that was working my way through the notes and
Speaker:finding every reference we've made to indigenous matters as part of the, 10 hour
Speaker:episode that will appear at some stage.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Alright, that's enough.
Speaker:I've gotta get ready for a 60th birthday gathering.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:I hope you enjoyed that one, and, we'll be with you next week.
Speaker:Bye for now.
Speaker:And it's a good night from me and that's a good night from him.
