full

Episode 391 - Scripture Union Chaplaincy and Al Capone

What do they have in common? A tax problem.

In this episode we discuss:

(00:00) 391

(00:44) Intro

(02:28) Cluster Bombs

(06:12) Sex Ed in Big W

(09:59) Commonwealth Games

(11:52) Misfeasance in Public Office

(21:28) Fadden By-Election

(26:56) School Funding

(34:46) Scripture Union and Tax

(37:56) Essential Poll on The Voice

(42:55) Instand Pot

(49:45) Race and Class

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Transcript
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Suburban Eastern Australia.

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An environment that has over time evolved some extraordinarily

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unique groups of homo sapiens.

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But today we observe a small tribe akin to a group of meka that gather together

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atop a small mound to watch question and discuss the current events of their city,

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their country, and their world at large.

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Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

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Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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Yes.

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And this particular group of Mekas requires a solid internet connection.

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Which unfortunately Scott, the Velvet Glove does not have tonight.

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Something's happened to his, internet, the nbn.

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So he's out of action.

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It's just Joe and I.

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So there we go.

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for episode 391 of this podcast, which is the Iron, Fist and the

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tech guy, Joe, how are you, Joe?

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I'm good.

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That's good.

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So yeah, 391.

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If you're in the chat room, say hello and already Whatley is in there.

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wondering, cause we are two minutes late probably coming on and Whatley was mm-hmm.

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Waiting.

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Good on you, Whatley.

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So, right tonight we're gonna talk about news and politics and sex and religion.

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What are we gonna talk about?

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a little bit of homework on cluster bombs briefly mentioned.

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Commonwealth Games, sex education, you've all wanted to know about the

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tort of malfeasance in public office.

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school funding Scripture Union.

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Our friend Alison had a, was heavily involved in a bit of a

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disaster for Scripture Union.

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So full marks to Alison, we'll tell that story.

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More polls.

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There's always polls about something more, polls about the voice and other stuff.

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a story about instant pot look, can't get by without talking about class.

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It's an important concept.

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So if we're gonna be talking about an article that talks about class,

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two articles, we'll get to those.

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So looking at the bad white working class and how racist or not they

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were for this particular family.

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So yeah, that's where we're heading on this particular one.

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And, and yes, Ross is in the chat room as well.

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Good on you, Ross.

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So Joe, just before we started, you mentioned you've been watching.

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In your spare time, YouTube videos about cluster bombs?

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Yeah.

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It was a discussion from an Australian analyst called Perran, or Pune, P e

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r u N, who was saying, you know, why would you want to use cluster munitions?

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and what's the big deal anyway?

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And was saying basically, so they're talking about artillery shells.

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And an artillery shell has as an example, a radius of around a hundred meters.

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But you get a very big explosion in the middle, and the effects as you get

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further and further out are less and less.

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Mm-hmm.

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And the idea with a cluster munition is rather than one big explosion in

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the middle, you split it out into 20 or 50 smaller explosions that

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are spread across that same space.

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Mm-hmm.

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and they're saying that figures that have come from both use on artillery ranges,

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but also during the Vietnam War, is that effectively it's a 10 to one usefulness.

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So for every one round of, cluster munition new fire, you'd need to

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use 10 normal artillery rounds to get the same effect in terms

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of enemies, vehicles destroyed or enemies killed, soldiers killed.

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Mm-hmm.

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the downside is obviously that some of the munitions don't explode, and it's the

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same with artillery rounds, but obviously you're putting more into the same area.

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Mm-hmm.

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and that civilians later on are gonna wander around and rather than one

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big bomb that you are gonna see and not trip over, yes, there are lots of

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smaller bombs, which you could quite easily trip over and set off, and said

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effectively it's the same as landmines.

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they're, the anti-personnel mines are a similar size explosive.

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They're similarly hidden, and posed.

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More or less the same danger to civilians.

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Mm-hmm.

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So his point is that a cluster munitions have already been

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used by both sides in this war.

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they already had stockpiles, neither side are, signatories to the treaties, banning

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them and saying that the countries who have signed up are the ones who don't

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rely on artillery, because effectively it's a very useful artillery round.

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Right.

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Okay.

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So, so for a, for an army that has a superior air force and doesn't

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expect to rely on artillery, they're quite happy to sign up on it.

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They're saying, Hey, oh, you are the guys.

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You shouldn't have these cluster bombs.

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Let's all agree, no cluster bombs.

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Whereas those people who rely heavily on artillery and

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Russia was one of the biggest.

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Right.

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Are going fuck off.

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No, they're a really useful round.

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Right.

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We're not gonna sign up to this agreement.

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Okay.

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And the Ukrainians, were saying we've gotta clean up the landmines

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anyway, so will clean up custom bombs.

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So effectively the current front is World War I trench warfare.

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The Russians have laid huge minefields.

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There's probably not gonna be good records to clean up after the war, so they're

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gonna have to demine the whole area.

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So whether they're cleaning up Russian mines or whether they're

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cleaning up Ukrainian submunitions doesn't make much of a difference.

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There you go.

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So as long as the utilization is kept to those areas and not used

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to bombard civilian areas mm-hmm.

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then realistically there's not much of an impact.

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And that's why it's not the big, bad monster that it's been made out to be.

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Who would've thought that we could simply say cluster bomb bombs?

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Not so bad after all.

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Oh, it's not a laughing matter, but that's the state of the world we're at.

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Mm-hmm.

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Good Lord.

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Yeah.

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And Joe, this one you're telling me as well, I hadn't come across a sex education

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book in Woolworths Big W, but Yes.

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Oh, big W, right.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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so, a book aimed at 10 to 16 year olds, introducing with diagrams

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and text, various in, things that kids are looking up anyway.

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Sex education stuff, sex education stuff, however it covers, you know, how to

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have safe oral sex and how to have safe anal sex, and discussions about consent.

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And strangely enough, the religious right have got wind of this and are absolutely

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disgusted that this is being settled, aimed at young children, grooming them.

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because, you know, we, we can hide our heads in the sand and pretend that kids

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aren't looking this up on, the internet anyway, with their unrestricted access.

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And even if you stop your kid have ac access to a mobile phone, other kids

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in the playground have mobile phones, they are all looking it up in the

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playground and showing it to around.

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Mm-hmm.

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And this, yeah, this is what my daughter has told me was

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going on in her school, so, yep.

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It doesn't matter the school.

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and there's very good evidence that kids who are given the words and told that they

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have the right to say no, are less likely to accept grooming and abuse from adults.

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Yes.

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I hadn't heard that statistic.

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So that said, less likely to be subject to sexual abuse.

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Yeah.

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Basically the, the more you pretend that it's dirty and disgusting and

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we can't possibly talk about it, The less likely it is for a kid to

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speak up about it and feel that they can safely discuss it with an adult.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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So by giving them the words, giving them the tools and saying, this is

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what is right and what's wrong, not on a moralistic in terms of sex, but

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you know that you have the right to say no, and that, you know, having

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unprotected sex is dangerous and all, all those sort of things, you generally

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lead to better outcomes for the kids.

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Mm-hmm.

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And therefore, the question is for these people who are getting up in

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arms about it, what's their agenda?

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Why do they want the kids to not have the ability to say no?

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Mm, yes.

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So that's a good counter argument.

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And, so far, big W has said to the book, banners get stuffed.

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Basically Big W have said, down, effectively it's down to the parents.

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They sell all sorts of stuff.

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I, I think the best that the nut jobs are going to get is possibly, it in

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a sealed wrapper or it put in a place that is harder for kids to reach.

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Mm.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Hey, the problem with the chats come up again.

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So do you listen?

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well those who are on the, watching the live stream, for some reason the

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chat's disappearing from the, screen.

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So we'll try and get it up so that your chats appear on the screen cuz that's fun.

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But, yeah, dunno what's going on there Joe.

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We'll have to investigate with Restream later, so we'll try and

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stop and start the chat overlay and see if it comes up at some stage.

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It's coming out for me.

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Is it?

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Yeah.

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Is it showing on the screen?

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Yep.

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Ah, okay.

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Alright, let me just bounce it from my end and see if it, yeah.

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Did that refresh for you?

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No, but if it's coming up on the screen for other people, that will do so.

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If it's there, good.

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Okay.

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Right.

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what else we gotta talk about?

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So that was, a little bit of, homework and other stuff.

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And Joe, it seems to change when I change the window.

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When I minimize the window so I can bring my word document up, but,

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anyway, maybe it's just all at my end.

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So, that's what she said.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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just briefly, Commonwealth Games in Melbourne, well in Victoria, regional

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Victoria, dictated, Dan announced not gonna have 'em decide to cancel everyone's

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up in arms about, well, I think the general sentiment will probably be

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really who needs the commonwealth gains?

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Is it worth it?

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It's such a second rate event, and if it's gonna cost money, is it really

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gonna generate enough benefit to justify.

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Expense in these tough times, I think people will probably

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be on board with that decision.

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So anyway, dictator Dan doing what he thinks and actually, I was gonna say

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doing something, but he's actually not doing something, but he is making a

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decision, at least I I, I thought it was an excuse to fund sporting infrastructure.

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Yeah.

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So I think he's decided to still fund some sporting infrastructure

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and that would just be cheaper than running a Commonwealth Games.

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Yeah.

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That seems to be the line he's running.

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So we've spoken in the last few weeks about, yeah, Bronwyn agrees.

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most people don't care.

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So the Mass ma, the mainstream media will make a lot of press about it, but,

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yeah, $7 billion is a lot and I think people will probably agree with you.

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You mean the Murdoch press won't agree with something that dictated and does?

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Yes.

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Shocking.

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Yeah.

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It's almost like if, if the Murdoch press agrees with you on something mm-hmm.

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You really have to double check it's, it's a bad idea.

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Almost.

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Certainly.

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That's why I'm, that's why I'm so reticent on this whole voice

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thing to get my argument up there.

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Cause I think this guy actually agree, but my reasons are different.

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My reasons are completely different.

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Get to the same result.

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But yeah, I'm fully aware of that, dear listener.

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Yes, I am on the side of some same side of some crazy, crazy people.

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And it does, is, it is disconcerting.

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So anyway.

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Alright.

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bill Shorten was talking about, he's quoted here from Bill Shorten,

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but I talking about, robo debt.

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What, what's his background?

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Bill?

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Shorten?

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Yeah.

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What do you mean?

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Bill Shorten is, is he a lawyer?

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could be.

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it's probably been so long in the union movement.

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He probably did law degree and went, worked in a union and I I, I'm just

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curious that he knows about this.

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That's, yeah.

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Well, all of the listeners to this podcast will know about it shortly,

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Joe, so it'll mean common knowledge.

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But, he says, I don't know why coalition ministers with that sort of very, very

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damning analysis by the Royal Commission, why they think when the commissioner

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says there's the tort of malfeasance in public office, why they think that people,

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victims won't sue them individually.

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So she must have mentioned it in her report actually.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I wasn't aware of the tort of malfeasance or misfeasance

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in public office, but generally speaking, it's damages for loss

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inflicted by public officials guilty of conscious maladministration.

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So abuse of power by public officers who either knew they were breaking the

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law or recklessly decided not to care that this might be so, and that would

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seem to cover some of the players Yeah.

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In the robo debt scenario.

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And, you know, I keep thinking about what is gonna make

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people accountable in future.

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And I was thinking, well, public servants will look and they'll,

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they'll see what's happened to this Catherine Campbell woman and say, okay,

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I don't wanna be in that position.

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I've gotta write the email that says we can't do this.

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Oh, cover your ass.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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I have to write the cover your ass email.

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Even though I've been instructed not to write, cover your ass emails.

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There might well be a Royal Commission in three years time and I need that email.

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So that's one thing.

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But, yeah, the, the tot of malfeasance in public office, if you, Doing something

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purportedly in discharge of your public duty, you cause loss to people, you're

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doing it maliciously, or, with disregard to the legality, recklessly then Yeah.

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Can be sued.

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So Morrison, apparently he's been approved for legal aid for ongoing.

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Yeah.

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Cuz he hasn't gotten any money of his own.

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Yeah.

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And I guess they want to give him a fair chance of defending himself if

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somebody brings a tort of misfeasance or malfeasance against him.

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But, well, I think everyone has the right to legal defense that used to

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piss me off about Cardinal Paolo going, how dare these lawyers represent him?

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And it's like, no, no, no.

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It's give him the best defense he can have.

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And then when he's found guilty, we can say he had the best defense possible.

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I think that might be, there's no excuses.

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Mm-hmm.

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I think that might be the theory here with the different players Right.

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Is give 'em a good legal defense.

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But that will be fascinating, Joe.

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If there's a, I mean, there'd be a bunch of sort of ambulance

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chasing lawyers out there.

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look, I'm surprised that who, who are the usual group of, the class actions.

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Yeah.

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I don't wanna name 'em, but they're out there.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So you would think that they would be approaching these people and

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saying, Hey, let's give this a crack.

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But especially those that have lost relatives.

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Yes.

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So that would be really interesting if, we start seeing that.

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yeah.

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I don't know whether you could get manslaughter out of that.

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No, I don't think you could.

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But seems a good chance of the tour of Ms.

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Fe.

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Oh, absolutely.

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So, yeah.

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I.

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Broman says in the chat room, as a junior public servant many years back,

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I was always told to ensure that there was a cover your ass memo on the file.

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No public servant should carry risk for ministers.

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I think that Broman as part of that Royal Commission, I think there was talk about

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people being pressured not to send or, or do those sorts of things, but yeah,

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anyway, that's what you need to do.

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so, Ross says, I saw rumors in the media that Morrison was intending

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to address Parliament about it soon.

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No way would he address Parliament in a meaningful way.

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can you see him apologizing for it?

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He would just deny blatantly that he'd done anything wrong and or pass the buck.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Morrison has never addressed anything in his life.

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He's always scooted around it.

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He might talk in Parliament and scoot around the topic and.

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And beef up his own position somehow, but he'd listen to him anyway.

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noisy.

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Andrew says, A young friend of mine had firsthand experience of robo debt.

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She'd got her health self handy job by then, so just paid up.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, I, I wonder whether, you can sue for getting your money back.

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I'm sure they could.

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Absolutely.

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yeah, so, yeah, I find it weird.

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my brother's ex-girlfriend was Catherine Campbell, so every time I

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see that name pop up, there you go.

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Yeah.

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Ross says, of course, he'll drop Catherine Campbell in it for sure.

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That's what he'll do in his speech is he'll drop her in it and

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Bronwyn says, yes, that's right.

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Trevor.

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The public service is a lot more politicized these days, and people

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appease ministers because they are rightly worried about their job security.

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Ah, that's the world we are in.

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So anyway, if something's gonna change behavior, I reckon this taught of

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malfeasance or misfeasance in public office could be one that could do it.

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Of course, these players would all expect the government to cover them

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if there is a finding against them.

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Why?

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But governments don't have to.

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No.

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So wouldn't that be great to see an award against some of these characters

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and have to pay for it personally?

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Yeah.

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There was a by-election, although having said that, mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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the civil service is paralyzed by indecision as it is.

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Mm-hmm.

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Can you, can you imagine the indecision if they had financial liability

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for every decision they make?

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Well, maybe you just take care to do it legally, maybe, and get advice

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and then not shove that advice.

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A away in a basket somewhere that nobody can seize it like money.

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I suppose it's not that hard to actually conduct yourself properly

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and not be sued in that situation.

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If you just, you mean like conduct yourself education when they were

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told that discriminating against the satanists would be, well,

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that's a different kettle of fish.

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Yes.

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But if you're acting in good faith and without knowledge of the invalidity

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of the act, then it's unlikely that it would constitute misfeasance.

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The whole point is these people were not acting in good faith.

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Yeah.

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So it's a pretty high bar.

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It's gross negligence or it's Yes.

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Deliberate malpractice.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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So I don't think your average public servant could say,

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oh, it's a very risky career.

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I've chosen, just do the right thing.

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That's obvious.

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You will be fine.

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I would've thought so.

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Mm.

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Anyway.

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That will be interesting to see how that develops over the next few years.

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Love to see that happening.

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what else have we got?

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Joe?

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You can still see the chat?

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In the chat?

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I can, yeah.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Okay.

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I can see it on our little side screen, but I don't see it in the main screen.

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No, no, I see it on the stream window.

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Excellent.

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Okay.

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and Broman says, I think it's just about having processes in place to ensure

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that decision making is evidence-based and has a robust basis overall.

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That includes getting reliable advice as to legality.

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There you go.

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I think I've told this story before, but a mate of mine was an accountant

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fully qualified working in one of what was then the big four firms.

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And he wasn't at partner level, but he was like an associate.

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And then he decided to become a lawyer and he did the bar exams and then

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worked as an article Clark in, law office, and of course ended up in

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the tax section of some law office.

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And ended up, they were writing some advice and the partner in

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charge was saying one thing.

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And my friend Philip was saying, I disagree.

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I don't think that's right.

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And the partner said, well, you know, I know what I'm doing here.

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I'm, this is what I'm saying the advice is.

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And Phillip said, okay, but I'm just gonna write a memo in the file

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that said my opinion was this, and I told you this was my opinion.

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And apparently that was enough that this partner then reconsidered and

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the advice was changed saying, right.

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That's the sort of thing that can go on if the system's working correctly.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Pretty ballsy move.

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Like most article Clarks wouldn't have been ballsy enough, but

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he had enough experience.

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Yeah.

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That he would do that.

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I, I, I've told colleagues in the past that.

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A verbal agreement is worth the paper it's written on, and that if you get

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a verbal agreement, you send an email afterwards saying, just confirming

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in our discussion that you said this.

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Exactly.

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Yeah, exactly.

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There you go.

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young people out there cover your ass.

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I cover your ass MIMO email.

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That's what you need.

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Right?

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there was a by-election on the Gold Coast because, Stuart Robert

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resigned and, so the seat of Fadden and returned an LMP candidate who

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received a positive swing of 4.3%.

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So you would think, Joe, after all of the robo debt publicity,

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what's going on that an electorate.

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Will provide a swing in favor of the LMP 4.3%.

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It's it's people who want to punish poor people.

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Yes.

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Because they're doing nicely.

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Thank you very much.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You have to look at the demographics.

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This is LMP Heartland on the Gold Coast here.

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So, so yeah, positive swing, they retained it.

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The other part of this was that there was no Clive Palmer candidate who

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had previously had 6% of the vote.

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So there was 6% of the previous vote that had to go somewhere.

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And guess what?

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4.3% went to, the LMP guy.

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So is this federal or?

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Yeah, this is, yeah, this is the Stuart Roberts eye election because Mr.

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Potato had tried to stand for one of the Gold Coast safe seats.

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He did.

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And they didn't have him.

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Yes.

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And he came, he, he s slunk back to here and they reelected him.

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That's right.

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Christ knows why.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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so I think that explains the swing is just that there, well there wasn't a,

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a Clive Palmer candidate and that 6%, well they, for Clive Palmer weren't

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gonna vote labor or greens, were they?

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So, so labor really had a minor swing against them.

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oh, let me just see.

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I can't see it.

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My, oh, just the labor vote fell by 0.25 of a percent.

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The one that really fell was the greens.

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So they fell from 11% to just over 6%.

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but according to this article, for right wing retiree heartland, which

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is what this seed was, that's not going to worry the greens too much.

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I think they would take that as a badge of honor.

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Actually, if they were the greens, they would go.

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Okay.

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In this particular electorate, if we get a swing against us like that, that's

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probably a good sign based on, well, Ross, Ross is saying it went to the hemp party.

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Ah, okay.

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did he swing against greens and went to hemp party?

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Okay.

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Hmm.

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Okay.

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There we go.

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he also says, dodgy people rely on bullying good people into not speaking up.

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It happens everywhere.

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Who, who?

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Who'd have thought that the geriatrics were potheads?

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Yes.

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Yes.

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They would've thought so.

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Anyway, gold Coast is a strange place, dear listener.

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It is strange.

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I love cooling gata where we are.

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I don't consider some of Mexicans.

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I don't consider cooling gata the Gold Coast.

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It's more, it's a Northern New South Wales.

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It's more of a village.

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Yes, exactly.

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The rest of the Gold Coast is weird.

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I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again.

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In that, again, when I was in Article Clark, you would, as a lawyer, you would

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have undertakings with other lawyers where you would say by letter, if you

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send me this bank check for this amount, I undertake that I will send you this

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title deed for this property, for example.

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And a solicitor's undertaking is considered a very serious promise.

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Mm-hmm.

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And if you don't comply with it, you can take 'em to the law society and

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have all sorts of CREs against somebody.

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So a sort of a promise, a solicitor's undertaking using the word undertaking

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was considered very serious.

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And where does their bond?

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Yes.

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And I remember my boss at the time who was right, winging Tony, I had some

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deal, some things, some transaction, and I said, we're gonna be doing an

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un mutual undertaking, blah, blah.

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He said, that's fine.

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I hang on a minute.

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It's not with a Gold Coast law firm, is it?

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And I said, no, no, it's not.

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He said, that's okay.

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Just never accept an undertaking from a Gold Coast law firm because

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they're cowboys down there.

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Like, it's just a strange place in that regard.

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Mm.

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Well, I, the Queensland police chief who was found guilty,

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ended up down there, didn't he?

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Terry Lewis.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Probably.

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Yeah.

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The bag man.

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Mm.

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All that.

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Yeah.

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Probably.

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Was he the bag man?

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No, he was just the bag collector.

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There was another guy who's the bag man, I can't remember.

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Hmm.

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For my time.

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Yeah.

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actually it was a good, good podcast with, Chris Masters, who was the

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investigative journalist behind the Four Corners Report, the Moonlight State,

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and he was behind a number of different, Inquiries that led to Royal Commissions.

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And he was also the guy behind the one with this, SAS soldier.

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What's his name?

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He's just been found.

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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And he's lost the defamation trial and he's appealing.

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Okay.

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yeah, so he involved in a number of big cases, really good journalist.

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Anyway, late night live interview with Chris Masters, old school journalist.

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Sadly, not many like him left.

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You know that the Moonlight State is still up on the ABC website.

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Not surprised.

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Should be, yeah.

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Should be, should be required watching in, schools.

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Yes.

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Certainly up here.

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Mm yep.

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Yep.

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school funding.

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There was an article in The Guardian, because they had

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done some right to information requests about school funding and.

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It turns out your listener, it's not good for our state school system.

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So compared to private schools, funding to private schools has increased almost

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twice as much as funding to public schools in the decade since the Gonski review.

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So Gonski did a review and said we should really come up with a figure that it costs

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to educate per student, and we should take into account factors that make it

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more expensive to educate certain kids.

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And so kids from difficult, low socioeconomic backgrounds are

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statistically more expensive to educate for a variety of reasons

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than kids from upper middle class.

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And so the government should be paying more to schools that

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educate those sorts of kids.

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Than they do to schools that educate, the others.

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So, if you can imagine, dear listener, of course, in a public, in a private

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school where it's very easy to expel kids and you generally have well behaved

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students with parental involvement anyway.

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Correct.

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because people are figuring if your kid's a real rat bag, I'm not

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spending 30 grand to send 'em to this expensive school in the first place.

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Yep.

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So there's a filtering aspect that takes place.

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And then even if they've got the money and put 'em in there and the school

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says, this kid's just too hard, you can just take 'em to the local state school.

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So the state schools invariably end up with a higher proportion of

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kids who are difficult to educate, so they should get more money.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or doing that.

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And Gonski was about, you know, what's it cost to educate a kid?

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Let's make sure every school gets frightening depending

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on the caliber of kid.

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Gonski was not a vote winner because, you know, I, I've paid my taxes.

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I should get funding for my kid in, in private school.

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Yes.

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That is an Australian thing that Yeah.

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Did.

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Right?

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Just like I don't get public transport.

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I should get money to spend on my car every year that would otherwise

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go into public chat support.

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It is the same argument, isn't it?

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It is.

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The government is subsidizing the, the bus commuter by mm-hmm.

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$300 a year or whatever it is.

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I should get that $300 that I could spend on my car.

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Yep.

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It's the same thing anyway.

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in this article from The Guardian, they're really looking at the period

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from 2012 to 2021 and funding for independent and Catholic schools

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rose by 34% and 31% while funding for public schools increased by just 17%.

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So not only were we starting off at an unequal position, but

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it's just been getting worse.

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And,

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but who made the promise that the private schools would be

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no worse off under Gonski?

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Gillard made a promise to pacify them and did that.

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And yeah, there's just been a reluctance to lose votes to the

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private school, because, because it's 40% of the population.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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So, look, increasingly though, particularly in this current environment,

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must be a lot of people who are second guessing, sending their kids to a private

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school, surely, and when things are tough.

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So you're probably, your heads out I would think.

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The future for private schools is gonna be Bleecker and Bleecker

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cuz people just cannot afford it.

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I wouldn't have thought.

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And culturally why you would send your kid to a private single sex school,

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particularly boys and have them mixing with a bunch of upper class twits.

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I just, do you really want your boys inculcated in that culture?

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Really?

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Goodness sake.

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Oh yes.

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Cuz you know the old boys network.

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Yeah.

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Total rubbish.

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Complete rubbish fury.

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I dunno.

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I've got a job on the strength of it.

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Yeah.

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How old are you?

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Oh yeah.

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And it was when I was 17.

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Yeah, back in the day maybe, but, not now.

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unless you're a stock broker and how many people get jobs as a stock broker?

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So they look at their grades now.

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okay.

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so that was just an article in there talking about the widening

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gap and, you know, private schools and the funding of it.

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It's Australia's version of gun control, isn't it?

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It's just a crazy system that we have here, and people get so tribal about

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their school and they loved their school and there is something to it

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where they'd be really cranky with the government that pulled the funding mm-hmm.

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That made it tough on their old school.

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Are there, are there that many?

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I don't know.

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I think it's another one of these public services that shouldn't be outsourced.

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Mm.

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And that we should be resuming them.

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We should be going, what, what's the school worth?

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How much money have we given you to upgrade the school facilities?

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We'll take that off.

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And how much of that land was given to you for free?

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And there you go.

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Here's some money back.

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Or just stop the subsidy and they won't be able to continue as a business.

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And they'll actually, well, the bias is a failing business, correct?

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Yeah.

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But then they'll sue you for investor state protection.

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Yeah.

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They'll, they'll sell all their, all the private schools will move to Singapore

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and then see you under an investor state.

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That's about the only thing they could do, Joe.

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You're right.

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But, but yeah, that's what they, that's what the government should

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do, is just pull the funding and say that's what they could do with the

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hospitals is simply say, we're not still gonna provide this funding.

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We're gonna whack up a big building over here, and we're not gonna provide funding

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to you, and you are gonna collapse, and we'll pick up the scraps later on.

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It'll never happen.

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But that's a theory anyway.

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Look.

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so, what's this one from Bronwyn?

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I've written an interesting article recently written by some

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educational researchers about the public versus private issue.

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They identified a large number of private schools, which they labeled cruiser

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schools cuz they are failing to improve the position of their students based on

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nap plan and other data, and therefore offer poor value for money, both parents

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of their students and the taxpayer.

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yes, David Gillespie has a book on schools.

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In fact, there is an interview with David on this, on this very podcast.

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Just search for it somehow and you'll, David Gillespie in the

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search bar of your podcast app.

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And it's all about choosing schools and how there are good private schools

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and there are good public schools.

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And he says you need to look at the, the results, statistics and, figure it out.

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But just because it's private, Doesn't necessarily mean it's a great school.

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Right.

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and Sim Budgie says, I'm a private school educated Catholic education.

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yep.

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Okay.

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Our friend Alison, is Alison in the chat there anywhere?

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I haven't seen her name come up.

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I haven't seen, I Hello to Alison and her mother, Bev, who listens with her,

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might be in the car at some stage.

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So Allison listen with Mother.

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Yes.

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Five years ago, Allison told the Australian tax office that the Scripture

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Union Queensland, who the people who employed chaplains, appeared to be

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misusing their school ministry funds deductible gift recipient status

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because they were giving people tax deductible receipts for donations.

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And the problem was that the.

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Tax deductible status was specifically for donations to provide religious

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instruction in government schools.

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Meanwhile, chaplains, of course, are prohibited under the scheme from

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providing religious instruction.

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So Scripture Union was offering tax deductible status for the donations,

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supposedly cuz the donations were for religious instruction.

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Meanwhile, under a scheme in which they were prohibited from

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providing religious instruction.

Speaker:

and it turned out that the Morrison government offered a sort of, indemnity,

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an in an exemption, sort of just a sort of a government overruling,

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if you like to say, give them this special tax deductible status.

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Even though they don't really qualify is the reason for it.

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Mm-hmm.

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And fortunately, one of the few good things that the labor federal government

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has done on a very short list when it comes to secularism is they refused

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to extend that special arrangement.

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And so scripture Union are back to being subject to the laws that

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everybody else is subject to.

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gifts are no longer tax deductible and scripture Union is crime poor

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that they won't be able to offer the same number of chaplains that

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they used to Crime and River Joe.

Speaker:

Sure.

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I've got a very tiny violin somewhere that I could play great work

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again, Alison, somewhere, someday they'll erect a statue for you.

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Alison, one of Queensland and Australia's.

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Best of secular activists for sure.

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So, yeah, there you go.

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It's only taken five years.

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Alison's in it.

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She plays the long game.

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There we go.

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Fantastic stuff.

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and there's a lovely article in The Guardian by Paul Karp explaining all that.

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So, so that was great work for Alison.

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Great result.

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And, another small victory for secularism hasn't been a lot of 'em, but that's one.

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We'll take what we can get.

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Right.

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you've, it wouldn't be a podcast episode, Joe, without a poll about the voice.

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No.

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Yeah.

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Last time we were talking about a news poll.

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A news poll was quite, Different to what we'd previously been looking

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at, which was essential poll.

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A news poll was really giving quite a negative prognosis

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for the voice referendum.

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Now there is an essential poll out and I think Joe, what's happened

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is essential before didn't offer a don't know or unsure option, which

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they've decided to put in now.

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So overall, according to the essential, it's 47.

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Yes.

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43 no and 10% unsure.

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So I'm pretty sure that's a drop from where they were before.

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cuz it was seemed to be a lot close.

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It was in the sixties before.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like so.

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So yeah, that's the current essential pole.

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I say brackets if unsure.

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Which way are you currently leaning towards?

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Mm.

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well on this graph it's just got 10% unsure.

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Yeah.

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I dunno.

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Yeah, you're right.

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I dunno what that means.

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anyway, still not looking good for the voice.

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in terms of states, they show Queensland as a clear no, but, no clear nos in the

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other states, but lots of don't knows.

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And unsures, even New South Wales, they have as 45.

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Yes.

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44, no, with 11% unsure.

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So under news poll, new South Wales was a clear yes, but under essential.

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Not so clear was that, and males of course, more likely

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to say no compared to females.

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Young people more likely to say yes.

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So news was going shock hora now more women than men, or is it women

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were also more likely to say no?

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Mm.

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Under touting, touting something about women saying No voting.

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No.

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Mm.

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Well, under this essential poll, females 49%.

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Yes.

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40% No males.

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47%.

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No.

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44%.

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Yes.

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There we go.

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Mm-hmm.

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young people are a yes.

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Old people are a no.

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Sure.

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Carra.

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Mm.

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And Labor and Greens voters are Yes.

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Coalition voters are no minor parties and independents.

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Big nos.

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Yeah.

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I suspect we make up the 18%.

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which 18% was that Joe Green?

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No.

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Voters.

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Oh, the green.

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No.

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Voters.

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Yes, indeed.

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Indeed.

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That's us.

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and that's, we can say that because Scott's not here and correct.

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Scott is just never gonna vote green.

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It's interesting that Scott aligns with the greens on this particular,

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is she, I know Scott aligns with the greens on nearly everything.

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Yes.

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He just refuses to, to admit it to himself.

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Yes.

Speaker:

They easily The most secular.

Speaker:

Yes.

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when it came to the school funding, let me go back to the school funding.

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well, I was talking before about, you know, funding for private

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schools outweighing funding for the, public schools, the Greens education

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spokesperson, penny Alman Payne.

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So the gap in funding between private and public schools that

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created one of the most unequal and segregated school systems.

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In the O E C D quote, it's clear that the implementation

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of gonski has been a failure.

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By no measure.

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Can anyone say a decade later, our school funding model is working.

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It's a twisted and perverse system that is widening the gap between

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rich and poor kids and lowering average student performance.

Speaker:

You'll never get a labor education spokesperson.

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God using language as Franken.

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Fearless as that.

Speaker:

Scott has got a vote, rings whether he likes it or not, if it's true to

Speaker:

his ideology, education and health.

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It's this, this whole federal, state funding fiasco.

Speaker:

Mm mm Yeah.

Speaker:

It, it either needs to be all federal or it needs to be all state.

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Yeah.

Speaker:

Well, in any event, whoever is funding it needs to abide by principles of public

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education, secular public education.

Speaker:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

So, and the only party talking that way are the greens.

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I don't see this current labor, federal education minister doing anything.

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Even though he was raised in a public school, he's just,

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there's, there's no talk at all.

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No, nothing encouraging from them.

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So, yeah.

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Okay.

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this one's from Caitlyn Johnston.

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she read a, a thing in the new article about the Instant Pot, a

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popular electronic pressure cooker whose parent company recently

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filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

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There we go.

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A pressure cooker manufacturer, Joe filing for bankruptcy.

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Why would that be your thought?

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First thoughts might be that must be making a dodgy pressure cooker.

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no, no.

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I, the CVD groups talk about the instant part and it has a dedicated following.

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It's kinda like, Oh, what's the expensive, the magic mix that cooks

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and does the thermo mix thing?

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The thermo mix is very much like a thermo mix, except it's the 10th of the price.

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There you go.

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Yeah.

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Are you a sous V guy?

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Are you?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oh, so you've got the thing with the thermometer, it turns in thing off.

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Yes.

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On and off.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

And you are, what are your slow cooking in your sous v?

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steaks generally, but also, chicken is incredibly tender.

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Mm.

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and scrambled eggs are really, really nice.

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Okay.

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That's why you can get chicken breast that is still moist.

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Mm.

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If you cook it in a sous V as opposed to how it normally wants to dry out.

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Yes.

Speaker:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

I don't have one, it's just another gadget I don't have room for, but I

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can understand that You have one joke.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So, yeah, instant pot.

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what doomed the Instant Pot?

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How could something that was so beloved sputter.

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Is the arc of kitchen goods long, but bends towards obsolescence.

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Business schools may someday make a case study of one of Instant

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pot's vulnerabilities, namely that it was simply too well made.

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Once you slapped down your $90 for the Instant Pot Duo seven

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in one, you were set for life.

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It didn't break, it didn't wear out, and the company hasn't introduced

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major innovations that make you want to level up as a customer.

Speaker:

You were one and done, which might make you a happy customer, but is hell on

Speaker:

profit and growth performance metrics.

Speaker:

making a quality product that lasts a long time instead of quickly going

Speaker:

obsolete or turning into landfill will actually drive you into bankruptcy.

Speaker:

Yeah, it's sad.

Speaker:

so much these days.

Speaker:

You know, when I grew up, you'd repair things with a soldiering Iron.

Speaker:

Mm.

Speaker:

And now it's just not cost effective to crack open the seal.

Speaker:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

Because the goods are so cheap and labor is expensive.

Speaker:

A lot of things don't make sense.

Speaker:

Joe, I was in Cole's supermarket the other day.

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Mm-hmm.

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A packet of like salt vinegar, kettle chips was, Joe, is that 135 grand pack?

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it's 165 grand pack.

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It would've cost if it wasn't on special.

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Mm-hmm.

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$6 something.

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It was on special.

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Okay.

Speaker:

Normal price is $6 something.

Speaker:

I looked at that and was like, there's no way I'm buying that.

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I'm just a humble podcaster.

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I can't afford it.

Speaker:

Yeah, exactly.

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But we also needed a new frying pan.

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Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

Three aisle down.

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You get this fantastic Teflon coated, large frying pan for $15.

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Yeah.

Speaker:

And I'm just going, this just doesn't add up where this measly bag of chips.

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Is nearly $6 50 and get an entire frying pan for 15.

Speaker:

It just, it's like when you see milk is like three liters for a bit over $3.

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Yeah.

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And, and then, you know, 650 grams of water is $3.

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Life's not fair, Joe, when it comes to pricing.

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We, we've got friends who are a d dairy farmer, and you remember

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they were doing the whole mm-hmm.

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Liter for a dollar.

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They were staying effectively.

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It was bleeding the farmers down in, Eastern Victoria.

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Mm-hmm.

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They were really suffering under that because they weren't, they

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were just not making any money.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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I think they were losing.

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And the problem is the, the supermarkets are, are effective monopolies.

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Yeah.

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Cuz who else are you gonna sell to?

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And so when the supermarkets say we're selling your product at

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this price, Take it or leave it.

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Yep.

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And that's why, when they were looking at inflation in Australia, we, a lot of our

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industry, there's few players involved.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, so yeah.

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Calls a bit of back again.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, too many oligopolies.

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But anyway, that's an interesting one.

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Instant pot.

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if you're making a product that's just, too good, then

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it's not a recipe for success.

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So, planned obsolescence, take it, you know, about, just trying to remember

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the name of it, the light bulb cartel.

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And it sounds like a conspiracy theory.

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This, this is, an interesting story.

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Yeah.

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Back in the 1920s or thirties, a group of light bulb manufacturers,

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the, the lifespans of light bulbs had been increasing and increasing.

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Mm-hmm.

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and they decided that actually this was not good for profits.

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And so they'd got together and made an agreement that none of them were

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going to create a light bulb that lasted more than a thousand hours.

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And in fact, if they did, they had to pay a fine to the cartel

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for every additional hour.

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Obviously this was in secret cuz this purely breached, anti, I don't know,

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trading law at the time, at the time.

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Maybe not, maybe that sort of behavior introduced laws like that.

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But certainly there is, there is actual proof of collusion between

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manufacturers to set and control the price with planned, planned obsolescence.

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Mm.

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And in fact, there's an electronics guy who I follow was

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talking about l e d light bulbs.

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And saying that there are some that are sold, I think in Dubai or one of the uae.

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Mm-hmm.

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and effectively they run the light bulbs at half the power

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that they're sold elsewhere.

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Right.

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And that gives you a 10 times lifespan.

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Okay.

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So when he gets his light bulbs, he pulls them apart, changes a bit of the

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electronics inside and derates them and runs them at about half power.

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And he says they just last forever.

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They, they deliberately run them hot.

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Oh, okay.

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Yep.

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So they burn out.

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Well, no, it makes them more, cheaper to buy, but of course

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they burn out much more quickly.

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There you go.

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Nothing would surprise me.

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Mm.

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Let's finish with a little bit of race and class discussion.

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Just to finish things off with, this was an article by Shannon Burns in Ian.

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It's an old article, but it's all sort of in preparation for the, the massive

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Indigenous Voice podcast now anticipated to be eight and a half hours long when

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I get to it, but, actually I'm reading an interesting book at the moment.

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Race, monogamy and other Lies.

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They told you Busting Myths about Human Nature by Augustine Winters.

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I might have that one, right?

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Is that because I mentioned it to you or you just that one I think anyway?

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No, it would've been around monogamy.

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I have Oh, okay.

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Grabbed various.

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That's upside down.

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Yeah.

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That's doing a mirror image or something, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So, anyway, it's interesting because it's talking about culture and

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what is culture and how race is.

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A myth, but culture isn't.

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And culture is real for people in it.

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But you know, human behavior is a combination of genetics and culture,

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but it's not just genetics plus culture.

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There's a real intertwining and intermixing and interrelationship

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that's quite complicated.

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And I think it goes a long way to trying to think about indigenous issues,

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is trying to think about culture.

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It is, after all just an ideology like religion.

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How dare you say that?

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Mm.

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So reading that, anyway, just on this article, got a few stories in it.

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We'll finish off with this one.

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he says, I spent much of my childhood in Northwestern suburb

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of Adelaide that was for decades, predominantly white and working class.

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in the 1980s, the new influx of migrants and refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, and

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China settled there in large numbers.

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Mansfield Park also boasted an extensive collection of public

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housing, which ensured that underemployed Anglo Australians like

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my parents, were well represented.

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So that paints a good picture, white working class, new

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Asian migrants, Adelaide.

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it was here that I became ashamed of my family's racist attitudes.

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My father and stepmother used racist language privately, but got along

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well with our neighbors, all of whom were Vietnamese or Chinese.

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They referred to these as the good ones, while unknown ones were not to be trusted.

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Slopes and nips were not taboo words in our household.

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Yet my parents would've denied that they were racist for using them.

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To their minds, the language you employed did not define you.

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I suspect the shame I felt about my parents' racism

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spraying mostly from experience.

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The bulk of my friends were Vietnamese and Chinese, and their family

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seemed more admirable than mine.

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My attitude was therefore a product of intimacy and experience rather than

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abstract notions of morality or equality.

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I had an opportunity as a child that my parents who had grown up poor

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among working class whites never had.

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I also had the chance to see myself through migrant eyes, and what I saw

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was often confronting poor whites were scorned by more than a few of

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the Chinese and Vietnamese migrants.

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I came to know, especially the hardworking self-sacrificing parents

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who were deeply invested in their children's education and upward mobility.

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They made it clear that I was not the kind of friend they wanted for their sons.

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Heard that one before Joe?

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Mm-hmm.

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Hardworking.

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Asians going Don't want you hanging around that lower class white scum.

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They're not the people for you.

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Oh, I can believe that.

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I can believe it as well.

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Why not?

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At the time, I was ashamed of my parents walked hostilities.

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But after migrating into middle class lifestyle, I've become less judgmental.

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Here I've discovered that unlike my parents, very little is imposed on me

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speaking here as a middle class person.

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Now we are never confronted by aggressive people as we go about

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our daily business, and we enjoy a prevailing sense of safety and certainty.

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For precariously employed unskilled laborers, the prospect

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of competing against a recent migrant for a job is inevitable.

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While for middle class people, it's only a remote possibility.

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In short.

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As sort of the middle class that he's now entered into, our empathy

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and values are largely untested.

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he goes on, I might skip that bit.

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as an aspirational teenage lumpen, I learned to embrace a working class ethos.

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It was a simple experience, experiential lesson.

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Whenever I allowed myself to feel like a victim, I fell into

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paralysis and deep poverty.

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Whenever I took pride in my capacity to work and endure,

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things got slightly better.

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One worldview worked the other didn't.

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says, at university, I discovered that this ethos didn't apply.

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A season of despair, would not send middle, a middle class

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teens spiraling into a life.

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Of drug aled indigen, they could simply brush themselves

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off and enroll again next year.

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Strong class enforced safety nets meant that self-pity could be

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accommodated and victimhood could even form part of a functional identity.

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This is a part I found interesting coming up.

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Indeed, the willingness to expose your wounds is another sign of privilege.

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Those for whom injury has a use value will display their injuries.

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Those for whom woundedness is a survival risk won't.

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As a consequence, middle class grievances now drown out lower class pain.

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This is why the wounded lower classes come to embrace conservative discourses

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that ridicule middle class anguish.

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Those who cannot afford to see themselves as disadvantaged are

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instinctively repulsed by those who harp on about disadvantage.

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it's true enough.

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I was in a men's group with, an islander guy.

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Mm-hmm.

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and we were all talking about our woes.

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and he said, I, I just don't come from a, a place where men

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could express their feelings.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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I, I'd be torn to shreds if I was to say any of this.

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Yes.

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And it wasn't that they didn't have any problems.

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Mm.

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Just that they weren't allowed to show any form of weakness.

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Yes.

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Or they would be the fact that you could, you could, you could, not celebrate.

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Well, some people almost do celebrate what some people do celebrate, but

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certainly harp on about your disadvantage is a sign of privilege to some is,

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is kind of what the argument is here.

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To some extent.

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You really.

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Really suffering.

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And you're underprivileged, you can't talk about it.

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you can't show that weakness.

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you're actually in a privileged position if you can.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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She's struggling.

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Vulner vulner abilities.

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Interesting.

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Mm.

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goes on about a section on speech here, which, eh, why not?

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We've got a few minutes.

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This is be the last thing.

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The rules of speech are habitually negotiated in the working class

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world in ways that many of my middle class friends would find shocking.

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The factories I worked in typically employed at least a couple of rough

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speakers who would use cunt in the way that the rest of us used mate.

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They were upgraded whenever they swore within the hearing of customers, but

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that was the extent of the surveillance.

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It was also understood that if they performed their job well

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and behaved decently, their rough manners would not count against them.

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How is it.

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That middle class progressives are unwilling or unable to make similar

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adjustments in the working class context In particular, it's what you physically

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do, what you make, the observable physical impression that counts.

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That is the native language, the one they are fluent in and the one they trust.

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And that language often conflicts with working class speech or attitudes.

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And he tells his story.

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I was working in a recycling center for some years.

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One of my workmates was a kid called Ricky.

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I regarded him as a low life brute, and he regarded me as a real following sissy.

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We were both right.

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Every week, an elderly Chinese man brought his bottles and cans to us.

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He couldn't speak English, which tends to frustrate racist.

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And Ricky was duly irritated.

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One morning, the man who had difficulty walking accidentally put his car into

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gear while he was half out the door and still tangled in his seatbelt.

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His legs went sideways and dragged onto the ground as the car took off,

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and he struggled hopelessly to pull them in or to reach the brakes or

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to loosen the seatbelt to escape.

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The car was only a few feet away from me, but all I managed was an incoherent

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shout and an uncertain jog as it picked up speed and headed for the main road.

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Ricky dashed past me, jumped into the man's lap, grabbed the steering

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wheel quickly, found the brakes.

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He then helped the man outta the car, checked he was uninjured and

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knelt with his arm around him as he cried and shook on the ground.

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When the man was calm enough to stand, Ricky pulled him to his feet, told

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him to take care, and then walked away muttering fucking Asian drivers.

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It wasn't a perfect performance, but it got the job done.

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He says, my parents were the racist.

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my parents were racist in private speech, but not in action.

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Did that make them secret racist?

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Who hid their racism from the wider world?

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Or were they non-racist who played with racist speech, or a bit of both?

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Who can possibly say?

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My worry is that by conflating racist or offensive speech or attitudes with racist

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or offensive actions or activism, we push people like my parents and Ricky, over

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to the wrong side of the political fence.

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Anyway, I thought that was a good story.

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Some good ideas to bear in mind.

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Yeah, I mean, I, I have always, come from a culture where

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you do play with these ideas.

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You tell the shocking jokes.

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Not because you truly believe the underlying concepts.

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Mm-hmm.

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But because the underlying concepts are so shocking, that's what makes the joke.

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Mm-hmm.

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That, that, that, that the idea behind it is so sickening and so depraved that, oh

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my god, you can't say that sort of thing.

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Mm-hmm.

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and I had a boss who came in, he'd come from the sales team and he went,

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it's so different working here because somebody walks through the door and you

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say, no, fuck off, but you'll help them, whereas the sales team will promise

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you the world and deliver nothing.

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Yeah.

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Good example, Joe.

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Yeah.

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You think that's Australian?

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You, you said your sales manager came from somewhere else and

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that was a surprise to him.

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Well, thi this was actually in Jersey, but Right.

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where was he from?

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He was Dutch.

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Okay.

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But, but he was saying our sales team.

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Were very much about the outward image.

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Mm-hmm.

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but did it didn't follow through, they didn't care.

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Yes.

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Whereas we actually cared about the customer experience, but, but we put on

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this outward uncaring face that if you didn't know, and you took seriously.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The, the best answer is to start with a no and work to a Yes.

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Because people feel happy.

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Yeah.

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Whereas if you go, certainly, what can I help you with?

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Oh no, I can't do that.

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People feel let down.

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Yes.

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Yep.

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Mm.

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Might be something tied in with the Australian thing where people, the

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more friendly and matey you are with somebody, the more abusive you'll be.

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Mm.

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And Americans will find that quite shocking.

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I, that these mates are abusing, just putting each other shit on each other.

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Yeah.

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All the time.

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Instead of positive, loving, warm words.

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That is an Australian trait as well, I think.

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Yeah.

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I was on a training course in England with a friend of mine.

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Mm.

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and he was, I was his customer, but I'd known him for a few years and the boss

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of their company came out, the boss's wife came out to teach us some software.

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And so I'm sat in class just taking the piss out of him.

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He couldn't really respond because I was the customer and therefore,

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but she said, stop at you two.

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I don't, don't wanna have to send you outside for fighting.

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And I just look at her going, what is she smoking?

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And she's going, why are you being so mean?

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And it's like, cuz he's my friend.

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Yes.

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This is normal.

Speaker:

Yes.

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There you go.

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But yeah, she was deep South American and all, all politeness.

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Mm-hmm.

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And she couldn't understand that friends would talk to each other like that.

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Mm-hmm.

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So there you go.

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Speech, in different cultures.

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Yes.

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Can mean less than actions and can intentionally be the opposite of

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what it's actually meant to be.

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On the face of it, there might be some underlying subtext

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there that is missed by people.

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Well, a a lot of the Asian cultures where the concept of face is true mm-hmm.

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Where you are very happily say, yes, yes, yes.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or I'll think about it, which actually means no, but you can't

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possibly say no to someone.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yes.

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I think in indigenous culture that's a thing as well.

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Where can possibly, I think some footballers were found when they

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were in environments, that they couldn't say no to certain things.

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Like, you've gotta be here on Sunday or something for a special training thing.

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And like, they didn't know how to say no because culturally that just

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wasn't something they could do so well.

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That was, something that was raised in the courts.

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Mm.

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Was the fact that aboriginal people, when a question is put to

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them, are taught to be deferential.

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Yes.

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Mm.

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and therefore, you know, did you commit this crime?

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Mm-hmm.

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they're instead of outright.

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No.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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There we go.

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Culture must be understood.

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Mm, yes.

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Right.

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Well, dear listener, hope you enjoyed the story.

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Scott will be with us next week provided his NBN is operating fixed.

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Yeah.

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And, we can talk more about culture cause I reckon I'd be

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finished this book by then.

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So I'll get into the weeds.

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I bit of culture thanks in the chat room for your comments.

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and there've been good ones and good on you, Alison, for a victory

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during the week of some sort there.

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And we'll talk to you all next week.

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Bye for now.

About the Podcast

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The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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