full

Episode 464 - Cyclone Alfred and Cyclone Trump

Topics:

In this engaging episode, the hosts cover a broad range of topics including international and domestic politics, global economic trends, and the impact of climate events. Key discussions include an analysis of the past two weeks' major happenings, the influence of Trump-era policies on Canada, Russia's international positioning and economy, controversial hate speech laws in Australia, and the persistent geopolitical tensions involving NATO and Ukraine. The episode also touches on the historical context of various political decisions and the ethical implications surrounding them, providing listeners with in-depth insights from credible sources and first-hand experiences.

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

02:12 Cyclone Alfred's Impact and Personal Experiences

02:54 Australian News and US Tariffs

04:07 Trump's Influence and International Affairs

08:38 Power Outages and Generator Stories

18:45 Free Trade Agreements and Rare Earths

38:28 NATO and Global Alliances

51:32 Hate Speech Laws and Anti-Semitism

52:22 Criminal Gangs and Graffiti Attacks

53:07 Controversial Hate Speech Laws

56:10 Historical Swastikas and Their Legacy

57:59 Gaza and Syrian Conflicts

59:40 Trump's Contentious Foreign Policies

01:17:13 Free Speech and Political Ideologies

01:36:40 Ukraine and Regime Change

01:52:21 Russian Propaganda and Disinformation

01:54:21 Jeffrey Sachs' Credentials and Involvement

01:56:05 Debate on Sachs' Influence and Advice

01:58:49 NATO Expansion and US-Russia Relations

02:01:47 Ukraine's Political Struggles and Choices

02:42:58 Russian Economy Amid Sanctions

02:51:51 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcript
Morgan:

We need to talk about ideas.

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Good ones and bad ones.

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We need to learn stuff about the world.

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We need an honest, intelligent,

thought provoking, and entertaining

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review of what the hell happened on

this planet in the last seven days.

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We need to sit back and listen.

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to the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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Trevor: Mmm.

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Well, what happened in the last 14 days,

dear listener, because due to Cyclone

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Alfred and power outages and internet

outages, we didn't do a podcast last week.

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So we've got 14 days to catch up on

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Trevor (2): and Trump

is a cyclone of content.

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Um, just keeping up with him for the past

few hours is enough to fill a podcast.

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Trevor: for several hours.

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We'll do our best to get through stuff.

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I'll tell you the agenda shortly, but

first of all, I'm Trevor, aka The Iron

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Fist, up there in regional Queensland.

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Scott, the Velvet Glove.

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How are you, Scott?

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Good.

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Thanks, Trevor.

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G'day, Joe.

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G'day, Trevor.

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G'day, listeners.

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I hope everyone's well.

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Trevor: In Peter Dutton's

electorate of Dixon.

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Suffering from Crohn's

disease and Peter Dutton

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Trevor (2): is Joe the tech guy.

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Evening all.

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Which one's worse,

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Joe: Joe?

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That's debatable.

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I mean the Crohn's disease is

under control most of the time.

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Do you think

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Eli Watsoname has got much of a

chance in unseating Dutton or not?

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Joe: I don't know.

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I would assume, I don't know how

much this electorate is because

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it's not in the city enough to be.

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Um, on board with, uh, renewable energy.

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They might have bought

into the coal bullshit.

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So, how much of an impact

she'll have, I don't know.

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And really, other than her managing

to knock him off his seat, what

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good it would be to have her in?

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Because she'll be a

liberal in any other name.

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Trevor: There you go.

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Alright, well, we're going to

talk a little bit about personal

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experiences in Cyclone Alfred.

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And, um, and then, um, I

thought it's always good to

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start with the Australian news.

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And do Trump and

international stuff later.

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But of course, Trump's been so busy,

he's included Australia in his agenda.

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So, we've had issues with tariffs

that Australia's subjected to.

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So I'm going to talk about the

Australian reaction to the US tariffs.

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And what our pathetic Labor government and

their LNP opposition have offered to do

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to try and um, get around those tariffs.

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Uh, so we'll talk about that.

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We will talk about some other crazy ideas.

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Bernard Keenan Crikey

says we should join NATO.

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Um, Dutton says we should join

the Coalition of the Willing

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in Ukraine, for God's sake.

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And we've got some crazy hate speech laws.

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That have been introduced into

this country on the back of

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a spate of anti semitism i.

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e.

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the caravan and various graffiti

events which turn out to be Nothing

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to do with anti semitism and all to

do with just criminal gangs paid by an

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international group And so we changed

our laws Based on a spate of anti

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semitism that the authorities are now

telling us was not anti semitism at all.

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So

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There was um, that uh, independent

senator down in the ACT, what's his

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name, um, the former rugby player.

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Trevor: Mm, Pocock.

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Pocock, yeah.

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He's actually saying that

they should repeal that now.

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Yeah.

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Because I agree wholeheartedly with

him, it was just a load of nonsense.

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And even at the time I thought

to myself, you don't have knee

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jerk reactions in laws like this.

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But apparently you do.

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Trevor: We'll talk about all that, and

then we'll get onto more Trump, because

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we'll talk about his stoush with Canada.

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We'll talk about what it means to

Australia, we'll talk about Iran, Japan,

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Panama Canal, Greenland, um, and then

some more free speech stuff, because in

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America they've just arrested a guy and

trying to deport him, he's a permanent

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resident, and uh, he was organizing

protests against the Zionist genocide.

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And, uh, they've just shuffled

him off into a cage somewhere.

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Nobody knows where he is.

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That's the non authoritarian

democracy of the United States.

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And UK and Australia are following

a similar path, and we've got a

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frau, you know, not a good story

of an Australian being charged.

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With a crime that's normally used when

you insult a police officer, but they're

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using that to charge him because he

declared that Zionists are terrorists and

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People saying well, that's just about a

political ideology Surely we shouldn't

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be throwing people in jail for that,

but he's being charged with all that.

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And, in the fourth or fifth

hour of this podcast, we, um,

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Trevor (2): when I say we, it'll

probably just be me and Joe.

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Because Scott's going to go

to bed after the first hour.

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I'll go to bed

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in an hour,

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Trevor (2): yeah.

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There's all sorts of

stuff we could talk about,

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Trevor: um, Ukraine.

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And the fact that the EU is

now re arming, supposedly.

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And I, I've got a whole bunch

of information about Ukraine

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that we could get into.

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So, so yeah.

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If you want to pick and choose

amongst those topics, I will, at the

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end of this podcast, pay particular

attention to the chapters this week.

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If you've got a good podcast app,

um, or maybe in the notes of whatever

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you're watching on YouTube, whatever.

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Um, if you want to skip sections,

If you're an international visitor

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to this podcast, you don't really

care about Australian news.

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Just look at the subjects and the

chapters and scoot around at your leisure.

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There's four people

watching live at the moment.

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You are welcome to make comments.

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We will try to incorporate them and

without any further ado, um, guys,

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Cyclone Alfred, um, some people think

it was a fizzer, but I beg to differ.

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Well, I think the

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Gold Coast copped it a hell lot

worse than what Brisbane did though.

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x: Yeah,

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Joe: um, there's been some interesting

conspiracy theorists about how it

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was, um, trying to scare us all, you

know, it was another COVID lockdown

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for no reason, uh, you know, had it

hit as at its predicted intensity, uh,

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it would have done a lot of damage.

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Yes, we were lucky that we were

lucky, you know, there was a bit of

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erosion on the Gold Coast beaches.

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We lost some trees down, we had some

major power outages, but I think

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one person is missing, presumed dead

in New South Wales, and that's it.

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Yeah, we've been relatively lucky.

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Flash flooding in lots of places.

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1.

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2 billion.

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1.

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2 billion has been knocked

out of the GDP, I reckon.

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Joe: Yeah.

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Um, on the Queensland budget, but

realistically all things considered.

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Um, yeah, having, having

been through Atlantic storms.

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What we got here in, um, northern

Brisbane suburbs, 20km inland,

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was, was no worse than a standard

stormy night back where I grew up.

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Trevor: Mm.

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I was on the Gold Coast, and, uh,

Koolangatta, facing due south, and I

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can say that, sure, the winds were,

were were strong, and the wind was

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coming inside, you know, the rain was

coming in sideways, but probably not

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unlike what you get in a really severe

Brisbane thunderstorm type situation.

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It just kept going on and on, of course.

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Um, so in terms of wind

and rain, not so bad.

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But just the continual rain, uh, like

the local golf course has lost something

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like 200 trees, which, um, a hundred

have fallen over and another hundred

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have to be knocked over, sort of thing.

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So, but, um, the big thing I want to

talk about is, is the loss of power.

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Like we were without power for three days.

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You know, and there are lots

of people in that predicament.

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And guys, um, multi storey buildings,

there's a lot of them on the Gold Coast.

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You can build one of those and you

do not have to put a generator in

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as a backup power to run elevators.

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Mains power is lost.

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There is no requirement.

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It's extraordinary, because these

places are full of old people who

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can't possibly walk downstairs.

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Um, they can't manage two or three, let

alone 21 stories or something like that.

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Like, it's a really dangerous situation.

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After a few hours, the emergency

lighting, um, batteries run out.

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So the stairwells are completely

dark, and if somebody needs to

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get out, they've got to walk.

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Impossible.

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There are thousands of

people who are trapped.

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on their floors, if there's a

medical incident where they've got

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a heart attack or something like

that, they can, they're stuffed.

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And by the end of two days,

if nobody knows they're there.

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And they haven't prepared.

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These people are starving.

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So, by the end of the

second, uh, day, I was lucky.

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Our building had a generator that

kicked on for two hours in the morning

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and two hours in the afternoon.

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And I managed to cook up some extra food.

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On the second night, spoke to,

um, building managers and they

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said, Oh, there's a couple on

level 20 who are doing it tough.

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So I went up there with them.

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With a pot of hot rice and

slow cooked beef, one of the

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better ones I've actually done.

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And they embraced me and were kissing

me and thought I was the messiah

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and they were really struggling.

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They were starving.

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Joe: So did you tell them

to, uh, not vote for Dunn?

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No, I didn't

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Trevor: give a political speech.

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But there's some people in serious

trouble, um, in these buildings.

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And I just can't believe that you

can build one of these buildings

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and not have a generator.

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Of some sort.

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So, um, yeah.

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That's a rule that should

be changed, I reckon.

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If you can afford to build a multi

storey building, it wouldn't be

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that much extra to put a generator

in to at least run one lift.

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Um, in an emergency, so,

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Joe: yeah, Hmm.

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Well, I actually, um, as soon

as of course we had power cut,

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I still had, um, mobile access.

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Hmm.

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Because I'm just down the road from the

telephone exchange and the mast is on

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that, so it's got a backup generator.

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I started getting adverts for generators.

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Yes.

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So I went online to look and

of course, nothing in stock.

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Uh, we've got some that we could possibly

start shipping in the middle of April.

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Yeah.

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So, um, But I discovered actually

four wheel drive Supercenter had

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one left in stock up in Toowoomba.

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Uh, and my daughter had two and

a half hours remaining to get a

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hundred hours for a driving test.

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Yep.

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So on Friday we went for a drive to

Toowoomba, uh, to pick up a generator,

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which I paid at the whole $418 for,

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Trevor: but that could run

your fridge and other stuff.

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Joe: Oh yeah.

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Yep.

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Um, it's three kilowatts, so that's.

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Basically, uh, it'll run everything

that you could run on a 10 amp plug.

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Right.

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So most of the household.

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Most of the house, it probably

wouldn't run the stove and it

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wouldn't run the big air conditioner.

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It'd probably run the small

air conditioner in one room.

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Uh, it would certainly run the fridge

and the TV and the internet connection.

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Because again, I'm on a fiber.

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Uh, the far end of it was up and running.

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It was just, I'd lost

the power to my local

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Trevor: box.

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Yeah, well, I am waiting six months

and I'm going to buy one, Joe.

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Because the other thing about this, dear

listener, is in the good old days, when

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there was a storm and a tree fell on

power lines, they'd send a crew out to

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fix it in the middle of the night, with

the rain and the wind still howling.

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But, um, these days, because of workplace

health and safety and whatnot, They

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basically look out the window and say,

well it's too windy, it's too wet, and

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we're not going to send any crews out,

so what previously might have been

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a 12 hour sort of outage now becomes

a two to three day outage because of

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um, the delay in starting the work.

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Joe: Yeah, um, I had a discussion a

while back with a friend of mine who

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works for the local council and, um,

the move away from the old style copper

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wire telephones, in the olden days,

you had, your phone was physically

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connected to the telephone exchange.

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The telephone exchange had

batteries and a generator.

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If you lost power, your phone would still

work, and if you dialed triple zero and

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the trunks to the triple zero call center

went down, it would at least switch you

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through to your local police station.

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Now, everything runs on NBN.

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Mostly out of a node at the end

of your street, which has maybe

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four hours worth of battery.

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x: Um,

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Joe: even if that is up, if one

of the main lines, I mean, not so

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much in Brisbane, but certainly up

north, if the, if the fiber optic

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gets cut, um, everything is switched

through Sydney and Melbourne.

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So you've got zero comms.

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Um, even if locally everything is intact,

if your one main or your two cough

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fibers out of town get broken, that's it.

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You're isolated.

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And I think that there has

already been talk about.

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Um, emergency backup, I think

on satellite, for mobile phones.

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And the government is talking

about a medium term plan, but

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it's not going to be tomorrow.

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Trevor: Well, from personal

recent experience, I can

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Trevor (2): tell you that being

without power for three days

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gets really uncomfortable.

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Trevor: Even though we had it

for a couple of hours, morning

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and night, with the generator.

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Get yourself a generator in a

few, you know, when the prices

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get back to normal, because yeah,

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Joe: it's uncomfortable.

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I also worried we were

going to lose water.

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Fortunately, we didn't,

but my bathtub was full.

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Trevor: Yeah, in the meantime, if there's

another incident, I know where to go, Joe.

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Joe: Yeah, got a spare room.

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Yeah, okay.

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Trevor: Yeah, so that was that.

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Um, uh, yeah.

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You know, boomers will

still complain, of course,

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Trevor (2): in the building.

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One guy was blaming Chris Bowen and

renewable energy for the power going out.

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For God's

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x: sake.

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I know.

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Joe: If you'd had renewable energy on

your If you'd had solar on your Rooftop.

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Yeah.

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Maybe you'd had enough power.

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Trevor (2): Yeah.

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And some of these boomers will

complain about anything like

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Trevor: one was complaining

in the lift about.

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They'd lost, of course, uh, the

generator, back up generator didn't work

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in their apartment, so they lost power

completely and all their food spoiled.

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So they were expecting the body

corporate to compensate them for the

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loss of the food in their fridge.

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It's

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Trevor (2): like, for God's sake.

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I

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Trevor: think Sky, I've got a theory

that Sky News and the Courier Mail, it's

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all such outrage and anger that it just,

these people who sit there watching it.

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Become angry people.

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Um, world.

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I think there's a hell lot

world railing the world.

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I think there's a hell of a lot to that.

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Trevor: Yeah.

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Well, you know, you only have

to look at some of our friends

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and everything like that.

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That started reading some rightwing

nonsense and how they have changed, but,

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Joe: but haven't.

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Old people always being

get off my lawn anyway.

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I don't know.

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Yeah, but you know, you look at

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me, I've got grey hair.

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Trevor's got grey hair.

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You don't have any hair.

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And none of us are angry.

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We're not

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Trevor (2): angry old white men.

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No,

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we're not.

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It's not like we get

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Trevor (2): on a podcast

and bitch about the world.

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Yeah, we are

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probably pissed off

about parts of the world.

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But we actually channel our

anger in one, one direction.

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Trevor (2): That's right.

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We're

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Trevor (2): still smiling.

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We're laughing about it.

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It's good.

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It's a good humoured whinge, at least.

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Joe: Talking about old people and

generators, did you hear that four

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people, I think, were poisoned?

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Uh, I don't know if it was this

event, but four people were taken

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to, um, uh, hospital with carbon

monoxide poisoning because they'd

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run a generator in their house.

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Trevor: Um, I did hear that.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That doesn't surprise me.

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There are some, there are

some clueless people around.

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Trevor: Yeah.

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And,

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you know, up here.

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They actually have warnings and that

sort of stuff saying if your power

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is cut out, do not use your generator

indoors, have it outside, have it

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well ventilated, you know, there

are some braindead people around.

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Trevor: Right.

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Um, let's start with the tariffs

that, um, that were announced

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by, Basically, for everybody.

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Um, and, this was, um, going to apply

to Australia for, um, affecting our sort

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of, Exporters of steel and aluminium,

yeah, and there were attempts by, um,

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Albanese government to get special

favours to be exempt from sort of

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worldwide imposition of this tariff.

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And it fell on deaf ears and Trump said,

no, everybody's going to pay the 25%.

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So.

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Joe: Everyone doesn't have to pay the 25%.

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American taxpayers have to pay the

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Trevor: 25%.

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Good point, Joe.

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It applies to everybody.

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Good point.

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And, um, of course, the commentary

was from the opposition.

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Well, if we were in charge, we

would have, um, had a better

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negotiation with Trump and we would

have extracted some sort of deal.

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And that Albanese didn't even go over

there, and if he'd have gone over there,

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then he would have got, you know, some

exemption, and Albanese said, well, heaps

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of others actually went, and they didn't

get an exemption, so, Um, as part of the

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wash up in all this, though, it turns out

that the Albanese government has made an

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offer to Trump, somehow similar to the

Rare Earths sort of deal, that Earths.

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What's that?

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We have a lot.

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Yes.

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And it looks like the Australian

negotiators were like, oh, we've

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:

got a lot of rare earth, maybe we

can offer them to Trump in return

373

:

for not being, uh, having our, Stuff

subjected to this 25 percent tariff.

374

:

We're talking about, what, 1 billion

worth of exports to the United States?

375

:

Joe: It was less than

half a percent of GDP.

376

:

I think Friendly Geordie's, I've

been watching a lot of him recently,

377

:

did a whole thing about the tariffs

and went, in terms of impact to our

378

:

economy, it's absolutely nothing.

379

:

Yes.

380

:

And, um, it's the American

taxpayers that'll end up paying it

381

:

and they won't like it for long.

382

:

This isn't going to last.

383

:

Why should we do anything?

384

:

Yes.

385

:

He'll get sick a bit soon.

386

:

Trevor: Yes.

387

:

But it seems like this fucking Albanese

government was going to give away these

388

:

rare earths in a special deal to the US.

389

:

at a super cheap rate.

390

:

Joe: So my understanding is

they are horrible to process.

391

:

Hmm.

392

:

And, you know, although we have lots

in the soil, we want them to be taken

393

:

offshore to be processed in some third

world country, like the United States.

394

:

Yes.

395

:

Or the

396

:

PRC, that's where they do most

of the earths, is in the PRC.

397

:

Because they don't have the,

um Environmental controls.

398

:

Joe: Yes.

399

:

And nor will America after

four years of Donald Trump.

400

:

No, exactly.

401

:

They won't.

402

:

Trevor: Hmm.

403

:

So, um, what have I got here?

404

:

So, we find out these things through,

well, as a journalist, Philip Kuroi,

405

:

writing in the Financial Times.

406

:

So, he's the one who revealed

that Australia's critical minerals

407

:

reserves are being used as leverage

to try and persuade the Trump

408

:

administration to reverse its decision

on the steel and aluminium tariffs.

409

:

And, um, um, What does he say here?

410

:

So the Prime Minister said the

government had put forward a range

411

:

of propositions to the United States.

412

:

Those discussions are continuing.

413

:

Diplomacy is best done

in that way, he said.

414

:

And Foreign Minister Penny Wong

revealed Australia's, um, access

415

:

to Australia's critical minerals.

416

:

was part of the negotiations.

417

:

And this is the quote

from, uh, Penny Wong.

418

:

President Trump's administration

has talked about the importance of

419

:

critical minerals and has talked

about the importance of America

420

:

gaining more secure domestic supply

arrangements and changes to the global

421

:

market on that, Wong told the ABC.

422

:

She continues, Now, Australia

obviously is a country where we are

423

:

blessed with many critical minerals.

424

:

You would anticipate, being as

disciplined and as focused as we are,

425

:

of course, we listen to those signals.

426

:

Trevor (3): God's sake, just,

427

:

Trevor: we're so disciplined and focused,

we listen to the signals that earths.

428

:

She says, I'm not going to go

through our national media,

429

:

the step by step negotiations.

430

:

Um, so, um, Bernard Keane in Crikey wrote

a pretty good article on this saying,

431

:

you know, first of all, who said you

could go and give away our minerals

432

:

to these guys on some sweetheart

deal that is an offer to everybody?

433

:

You never, you never asked

us whether we wanted that.

434

:

There's been no debate about it.

435

:

You've just, you've just

gone ahead and done it.

436

:

Where's the discussion?

437

:

These trade deals are always held in

secret, and we find out about them

438

:

later, and it's all a done deal.

439

:

And, um, and he makes the point that

you just made that, uh, this sort of

440

:

aluminium and steel industry sales

to the US are so poor, it doesn't

441

:

matter in the scheme of things.

442

:

It's a rounding error in our GDP, and

we're getting our knickers in a knot.

443

:

All it takes is for Donald

Trump to just, out of his bum,

444

:

pluck out a 25 percent tariff.

445

:

And then just sniff around and see

what goodies people are going to offer.

446

:

Joe: He can coerce out of people.

447

:

Trevor: Out of people.

448

:

Trevor (2): It's just

449

:

Trevor: like the schoolyard

bully, wandering around the

450

:

schoolyard, threatening people.

451

:

Give us your lunch money.

452

:

Exactly.

453

:

And Australia is toadying to this guy

and not only handing over its lunch

454

:

money, it's, it's saying, Oh, I've got

some more stuff I can give you as well.

455

:

And, um, And, oh, can I please be

your friend, as you walk around the

456

:

schoolyard beating up on other people?

457

:

Trevor (2): That's, that's where we are.

458

:

It's pathetic.

459

:

Joe: I couldn't believe the

UK was tonying up to them.

460

:

I can believe it.

461

:

No, but I mean, honestly.

462

:

So the US is going, oh, you're

screwing us over on this, that and the

463

:

other, and the UK, I mean, there was

talk about, for us, going, alright,

464

:

Pine Gap doesn't exist anymore.

465

:

Get your troops out of there.

466

:

Uh, the UK could go, uh, Diego Garcia

and, um, uh, Ascension Island, wave

467

:

goodbye to your, uh, so Diego Garcia

is the US forwarding positioning

468

:

for the, it's the Indian Ocean.

469

:

Trevor: Yes, near it, yes.

470

:

Joe: Yeah, and it's a, it's

a huge US logistics hub.

471

:

Trevor: Southeast of India out that way.

472

:

Yeah,

473

:

Joe: so, so basically if the US

lost that, they've lost their, uh,

474

:

what they call forward positioning

for the whole of that area.

475

:

The, the world.

476

:

Trevor (3): Yeah.

477

:

Joe: So they would then have

to do logistics out of Hawaii.

478

:

Trevor (3): Mm.

479

:

Joe: Um, and Ascension

again is mid Atlantic.

480

:

Trevor (2): Yeah.

481

:

I mean, this is all the

perfect opportunity for labor

482

:

to say, the Orcus deal's off,

483

:

Trevor: fuck that submarine deal.

484

:

That's it's off.

485

:

Like.

486

:

Joe: Well, Alex has just said in the chat.

487

:

Rep up the free trade agreement.

488

:

Yeah,

489

:

Trevor: all the things that we wanted

to do, or need to do, now is the time.

490

:

You know, Trump was the guy who

said, you know, when a supplier

491

:

gives you a bill You cut it in half.

492

:

Did we play that clip once or?

493

:

I

494

:

Joe: swear I heard it very recently.

495

:

Trevor: Yeah, and you know, well, maybe

we should be doing the same with the Orcas

496

:

Trevor (2): bill.

497

:

The problem with this

submarine deal, it's so bad.

498

:

It's the one deal that

Trump doesn't want to

499

:

Joe: cancel.

500

:

You saw the, the Trump who

negotiated this, was it NAFTA?

501

:

It was the new NAFTA agreement.

502

:

Somebody said you did.

503

:

Joe: Yeah.

504

:

So if he's, if he's going to

walk away from that, I say we

505

:

don't have any responsibilities

with change of US government.

506

:

Just ignore all agreements.

507

:

It's one of those things.

508

:

I've got a couple of mates in the U.

509

:

S.

510

:

that I actually email them about every now

and again and I sent them something today.

511

:

It was a, um, it was that prayer

service in the Handmaid's Tale when

512

:

the commander was in front of all those

handmaids at the Washington Monument.

513

:

And it said, um, Handmaid's Tale was

a work of fiction, not a tutorial.

514

:

Trevor (2): It's turning

out to be very prescient.

515

:

Yeah, I know and I sent it to him and

I said, you know, I, the first email

516

:

I sent to him I said, you know, um,

have you exchanged your usual greetings

517

:

for people by saying, you know,

518

:

may the, may the Lord open or whatever

it is, you know, when, when they

519

:

say, yeah, blessed be the Lord.

520

:

Under his eyes or something like that.

521

:

Yeah, under his eyes

is how you say goodbye.

522

:

Yeah,

523

:

Trevor: anyway, Bernard Keane says,

um, the biggest concern is Is this

524

:

Albanese's strategy for dealing

with Trump, trying to bribe him

525

:

with gifts so he won't beat us up?

526

:

Does Albanese and his team seriously

think that they are preemptively caving

527

:

in to a bully who's going to protect us?

528

:

Um, there is something deeply,

perhaps terminally, stupid, visionless

529

:

and craven about this government.

530

:

Uh, I agree with all of that.

531

:

Um, uh, just lacking in guts.

532

:

And you know what guys, like now They're

still talking about this, giving away

533

:

minerals in a special sweetheart deal,

534

:

and they're not expecting a

reversal on the steel tariffs.

535

:

They're hoping now to avoid the

agricultural tariffs that are

536

:

going to be announced in April.

537

:

So, so they've already So they're

offering this stuff now, a rare earths

538

:

deal, hoping to get agricultural favours.

539

:

Just pathetic.

540

:

Joe: America's agriculture is

fucked because they're exporting

541

:

the people, they're deporting

the people who do all the work.

542

:

Trevor: Yeah.

543

:

Crops are in the ground, they can't,

544

:

Joe: they can't pick them.

545

:

So we won't be selling anything

to them in terms of agricultural

546

:

Yeah, tractors or whatever.

547

:

Um, so, and if we're selling

them fruit and veg that's

548

:

twice the price, well, so what?

549

:

They're going to pay it because there's

nothing in America that people can buy.

550

:

Yeah.

551

:

So let them.

552

:

I don't care.

553

:

Trevor: But, you know, the same way we

had a free trade agreement with China

554

:

and that got kiboshed over insults.

555

:

Right.

556

:

And, and our free trade agreement

with America is just being kiboshed,

557

:

like, at the whim of this guy.

558

:

And these free trade agreements.

559

:

It just demonstrates we could never

trust these guys to deliver the

560

:

subs that we don't need anyway.

561

:

Even just free trade agreements

themselves, there was an article in

562

:

Crikey about just as a matter of just

general practice, they're useless.

563

:

So they're negotiated by the Department

of Foreign Affairs and Trade, uh, in

564

:

secret meetings, except Lobby groups

are often allowed to see the drafts.

565

:

The public are never allowed to see the

drafts until they've actually been agreed.

566

:

Uh, so there's no proper scrutiny.

567

:

And, um, does anyone

do a proper assessment?

568

:

No.

569

:

At no stage is a genuine independent

assessment done of the deals.

570

:

And when a deal goes before Parliament,

um, there's an assessment done by

571

:

DFAT, the guys who negotiated it.

572

:

So they're doing their own, they're

assessing their own homework.

573

:

And genuine independent bodies with

expertise in economics Um, like the

574

:

Productivity Commission, don't get a

say, and the head of the Productivity

575

:

Commission, Peter Harris, complained

about this, about not being allowed to

576

:

assess the Trans Pacific Partnership

deal in:

577

:

said it would take too long.

578

:

And um, so they just divert trade from

one market to another, and um, and

579

:

assessments done by different groups,

like the Productivity Commission.

580

:

Look at these trade deals and find

that, um, we don't benefit from them,

581

:

and industry doesn't benefit because

it just creates hoops that they've

582

:

got to jump through to try and, um,

comply with the arrangements, and, uh,

583

:

yeah, all in all, they're no good for

us anyway in terms of, um, free trade

584

:

agreements, so, uh, all they do Is,

create problems where guys like Clive

585

:

Palmer purport to be a Singaporean

company And then enter arbitration

586

:

disputes Trying to argue when we don't

let him mind something he wants to mind

587

:

Joe: Well if he's a Singaporean company,

then he can't stand for election

588

:

Trevor: Well he can

589

:

Well, he can because he's

an Australian citizen.

590

:

And he's not actually.

591

:

Well, obviously he's not.

592

:

No, it's, it's not him as a

Singaporean, it's a Singaporean company.

593

:

Yes.

594

:

Right.

595

:

That he's actually selling.

596

:

But if he's the majority

597

:

Joe: shareholder in a Singaporean

company, well, then he's a Singaporean

598

:

citizen as far as we're concerned.

599

:

Well, yeah, I know, but

it doesn't work that way.

600

:

Trevor: Yeah.

601

:

That's one way of looking at it.

602

:

Joe: Yep.

603

:

Anyway, what are people's, sorry.

604

:

I was about to say with Trump and

bribing, you've heard he's trying to

605

:

roll back the law that says you're

not allowed to bribe, American

606

:

companies can't bribe, um, foreign

nationals, foreign companies for deals.

607

:

Trevor: I didn't hear that.

608

:

He's trying to roll

609

:

Joe: that back.

610

:

Trevor: Okay.

611

:

Joe: I wonder if it's also

for him, whether he's trying

612

:

to get some sweetheart deals.

613

:

Trevor: Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me.

614

:

That really wouldn't

615

:

surprise me.

616

:

Trevor: Um, some of the commentary,

um, Somebody said Trump will probably

617

:

invade us if we take Pine Gap away.

618

:

Because these are the

sorts of things we can do.

619

:

We can just say, well, get

your military out of here.

620

:

Or, get your spies out of Pine Gap.

621

:

Um, um, you know.

622

:

We'd have to actually have a look at

the Pine Gap agreement, whether or not

623

:

we could actually just boot them out.

624

:

Trevor: What does an

agreement matter, Scott?

625

:

No, exactly.

626

:

Agreements no longer

matter with these guys.

627

:

If he's tearing up agreements,

628

:

Joe: we can tear up agreements.

629

:

Trevor (2): Age old agreements,

like the border between the

630

:

United States and Canada.

631

:

Yeah.

632

:

He says, that's not valid.

633

:

You know, what did he,

what did he call it?

634

:

He said it was a fake border

or something like that.

635

:

Yeah.

636

:

It was a line

637

:

Joe: drawn on the map by, no,

that was between US and Canada.

638

:

It was a line drawn on the map by

people, you know, borders don't

639

:

normally go on straight lines.

640

:

It must be artificial and

therefore it doesn't exist.

641

:

Trevor: Yes.

642

:

So, agreements, loyalty, they mean nothing

643

:

Joe: to this guy.

644

:

It's all

645

:

Trevor: starter fresh,

646

:

Joe: so.

647

:

So he's expecting us to play by

the rules, but he doesn't need to.

648

:

Of course not.

649

:

Yeah, exactly.

650

:

Trevor: That's a bully.

651

:

Yeah, and the spineless Albanese

government should just grow a set of

652

:

balls and just Reset the things that

needed to be reset like Orcus like

653

:

a number of military installations

in this country Run by the Yanks

654

:

for God's sake but they won't do it

655

:

I think Alex, he's just brought

up a, um, comment there.

656

:

He said that the shared intelligence is

quite valuable if we get nothing else.

657

:

I don't know how much intelligence

we do actually get from Pine Gap.

658

:

I would have thought that was more under

the auspices of the Five Eyes Agreement.

659

:

So we could rely on the Kiwis.

660

:

Indeed.

661

:

For that sort of thing.

662

:

We could just cut the yanks out entirely.

663

:

Joe: Yeah, I mean the Yanks have got

the biggest budget, but given that it's

664

:

all going to be driven by Putin anyway

665

:

It's always going to

be what drawn by Putin.

666

:

Joe: Driven by Putin.

667

:

Oh, yeah, of course it will be.

668

:

Trevor (2): What's being driven by Putin?

669

:

The American budget.

670

:

Trevor (2): Oh right,

671

:

Joe: everything Okay,

672

:

Trevor (2): between

Putin and the Israelis.

673

:

Joe: Well, I wonder whether you

know, because you know Trump has

674

:

turned around and ignored all of his

intelligence agencies in the past.

675

:

x: Hmm

676

:

Joe: He, he, in front of the press said,

no, no, no, I'm taking Putin's word.

677

:

They didn't interfere in our

elections, despite 17 intelligent

678

:

agencies in America saying they did.

679

:

Yeah, but you know, the more

I read into it, I really think

680

:

that he's actually a Russian, not

an agent, but a Russian asset.

681

:

I mean, he returned from the Soviet Union,

purchased a, you know, suddenly got loans

682

:

from banks and everything else that he

didn't have a didn't couldn't even get.

683

:

He barely had a pot to

piss in at the time.

684

:

And then he ended up With three hundred

and five million dollars and buying a

685

:

hotel somewhere or other and he's just

that's where it all started from You know,

686

:

Trevor: anything is possible.

687

:

Joe: Yeah, certainly Putin

knows how to handle him.

688

:

And Putin as a strong

man He admires Putin.

689

:

x: Hmm,

690

:

Joe: and I think Putin

is going he's an idiot.

691

:

I can play him Whether or not he's

actually compromised by the FSB Of

692

:

which there is reasonable amounts of

information Uh, he's certainly played

693

:

by Putin for the idiot that he is.

694

:

Yeah, absolutely.

695

:

He could just as easily

696

:

Trevor: be compromised by the Israelis.

697

:

Joe: Well, uh, no, that's the other parts

of the American government, not Trump.

698

:

Trevor: Why not Trump?

699

:

Joe: Uh, he doesn't seem

to have the relationships.

700

:

Trevor: He's doing everything they want.

701

:

Joe: Well,

702

:

Trevor: at the moment, yes.

703

:

So if actions, if actions mean anything,

Um, you know, you could, you know,

704

:

you're looking at what's happening with

Putin and he's, and what he's doing in

705

:

Ukraine and just basically his actions,

and saying, oh, he's Putin's puppet.

706

:

Well, you could say exactly

the same about what he's doing.

707

:

A

708

:

Joe: whole load of other things.

709

:

He's Putin's puppet, not

just in that one place.

710

:

Right.

711

:

And has been for 10 years.

712

:

Right.

713

:

Okay.

714

:

All right.

715

:

Trevor: Well, um, A recent poll by

the Australian Institute of a couple

716

:

of thousand Australians, um, that's

a reasonable number, um, told us

717

:

that most Australians prefer a more

independent foreign policy than they

718

:

would prefer a closer alliance with the U.

719

:

S.

720

:

Absolutely.

721

:

Joe: 44

722

:

Trevor: percent wanting more independence

as opposed to 35 percent of idiots

723

:

wanting a closer alliance with the U.

724

:

S.

725

:

And, um, and the poll also revealed

that more Australians feel Donald

726

:

Trump is a greater threat to peace than

either Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping.

727

:

There you go, so, uh, where's that

one, um, uh, half of Australians,

728

:

51%, think Donald Trump's election

is a bad thing for the world.

729

:

Um, and, uh, half of Australians, 48%,

are not at all confident that Donald

730

:

Trump would defend Australia's interests

if Australia were threatened, compared

731

:

to only 16 percent of idiots who are

very confident that he would do so.

732

:

Oh,

733

:

Trevor (2): God.

734

:

Trevor: Um, and, yeah, who's the

greatest threat to world peace?

735

:

31 percent think Donald Trump, uh,

27 percent Vladimir Putin, and 27%.

736

:

Xi Jinping.

737

:

So that's what Australians are thinking.

738

:

It's good.

739

:

Crikey is an interesting rag.

740

:

x: You see stuff in

741

:

Trevor: there.

742

:

Some of it's good.

743

:

Some of it's crazy.

744

:

It's a real shame Guy Rundle

left, um, or was sacked.

745

:

But, um, Bernard Keane

Who's he running for now?

746

:

He's not doing anything.

747

:

I haven't seen him anywhere.

748

:

So I don't know.

749

:

Yeah.

750

:

Bernard Keane, um, you know, just

now I thought really good in terms

751

:

of, um, talking about these tariffs.

752

:

But, also in Crikey, Bernard Keane says,

753

:

Trevor (2): Australia needs to join NATO.

754

:

He says Australia needs to back European

efforts to bring peace in Ukraine.

755

:

And think about seeking to join NATO.

756

:

Um, Australia's operating in a

lonelier world and needs friends fast.

757

:

And he says, offering participation in

a peacekeeping mission should be seen

758

:

as Australia's application to join NATO.

759

:

Scott or Joe, do we need to join NATO?

760

:

Joe: Well, I think something

Article 5 would be useful.

761

:

And I'm not saying necessarily any

particular country is going to invade us,

762

:

but Certainly, it's a lot easier to fight

with allies, certainly with New Zealand

763

:

and possibly other ones in the, um, area.

764

:

I don't think that anyone, you know,

okay, the only potential aggressor in the

765

:

world is either Russia or China, but China

has got to go a lot, all the US, yeah.

766

:

You know, you've got three of

them, you've got the Russians,

767

:

the Americans and the Chinese.

768

:

They're the potential aggressors.

769

:

The only one that scares the

shit out of me is the Americans.

770

:

Because they've got a big enough

army, they've got a big enough

771

:

navy, they can get across the

Pacific and all that sort of stuff.

772

:

They'd blow up everything on the way here,

and then they'd actually deploy and that

773

:

sort of stuff, and they'd be invaders.

774

:

The Chinese, it's going to take them a

hell of a long time to get down here.

775

:

They've got to go through a

whole slew of nations that are

776

:

relatively friendly to Australia.

777

:

That, you know, we'd have plenty of

warning about them, and if we had

778

:

decent sort of long range missiles

and decent air force, we'd be able to

779

:

cull their, cull their invasion fleet.

780

:

Trevor: We would, we would give

the Americans a bloody nose as

781

:

they sailed across the Pacific.

782

:

It's not easy.

783

:

It's not easy to, it's not easy to

move an army an incredibly long way.

784

:

Now, the Japanese tried

and they came a cropper.

785

:

You know, yeah, that was probably

because the Americans got involved, but

786

:

Trevor: But systems are a

lot more sophisticated now.

787

:

Oh, they're a

788

:

hell of a lot more sophisticated now.

789

:

I've got no doubt about that.

790

:

Small

791

:

Trevor: drones are able to

disable large aircraft carriers.

792

:

Yes.

793

:

Yep.

794

:

Trevor: So, uh, yeah, so anyway,

the idea that we should be

795

:

joining NATO is just ridiculous.

796

:

Yeah.

797

:

I just think it's time for us

to do away with, um, alliance

798

:

groups and everything else.

799

:

It's the men that they were, they served

their purpose during the cold war.

800

:

The Cold War is over.

801

:

Trevor (3): It is.

802

:

Joe: I think Europe has a very

good reason to have an alliance.

803

:

The problem is, um, the

centralised command structure.

804

:

Because every country is going to

want control of its own troops.

805

:

And that's going to be the hardest.

806

:

There's going to be duplication

of things because every country

807

:

won't want to rely on the others.

808

:

For their own offensive capabilities.

809

:

It's one of those things, like, you know,

had the EU, you know, the EU's got to make

810

:

a decision about whether or not it's going

to become a, uh, United States of Europe.

811

:

Exactly.

812

:

It could well become the

United States of Europe.

813

:

In which case, you could have a

central government in Belgium, not

814

:

Berlin, because you can't go back

to Hitler's time or anything else.

815

:

Joe: And you can't go into France

because the Germans remember Napoleon.

816

:

Yeah, exactly.

817

:

It's never going to happen.

818

:

It'd take a long time, but I

do think it is on the cards.

819

:

Trevor: It's never gonna happen.

820

:

They'll never have a

centralised government.

821

:

It's impossible.

822

:

Too many different cultures,

different competing interests.

823

:

Never gonna happen.

824

:

So

825

:

I think if you ask the Poles, they'd

actually rather be I think the Poles would

826

:

actually rather be dictated to by Brussels

than what they would be by Moscow.

827

:

Trevor (2): If you split up the

50 American states and gave them

828

:

the opportunity to reform, they'd

never be able to do it either.

829

:

No, exactly.

830

:

Joe: Yeah, absolutely they wouldn't.

831

:

Yeah.

832

:

Interestingly, Estonia and Poland are

talking of, they've already pulled out

833

:

of whatever accord that bans landmines,

they're also looking of pulling out of

834

:

the accord that bans cluster munitions.

835

:

They, um, the Finns, the Estonians, well,

all of the Baltic states and the Poles

836

:

are very worried, um, that a Russian army

is going to attack, maybe not soon, but.

837

:

Putin is

838

:

Trevor: It's fanciful.

839

:

Putin isn't We'll talk about it

later when we talk about Ukraine.

840

:

It'll be about midnight

by the time we get there.

841

:

Trevor (3): It's just,

842

:

Trevor: Putin isn't out

collecting land for the fun of it.

843

:

Uh, with an imperial design.

844

:

No, I think he

845

:

Trevor: is.

846

:

Jeffrey Sachs Says that and I'll

give you his credentials later on

847

:

Joe: and we know that Jeffrey

Sachs is a Russian mouthpiece

848

:

Trevor: So easily said but

I'll talk about him later.

849

:

Joe: I've Just watched a

nice series of all about it.

850

:

What series was that?

851

:

Um, by a guy called Sarcasmatron,

I think, all about Alder, but, but

852

:

he's, he's actually documented, yeah,

the various bits and pieces and,

853

:

you know, it's not just his opinion.

854

:

This is the evidence

behind what he's saying.

855

:

Trevor: Right.

856

:

Uh, send, send that to

me later and I'll make a

857

:

Trevor (2): video.

858

:

Well, I, right.

859

:

It's for one hour videos.

860

:

Joe: Yeah.

861

:

Trevor (2): Interested

862

:

Trevor: to see it.

863

:

Joe: Okay.

864

:

Trevor: Um, getting back to, um,

the coalition of the willing has

865

:

been, is how it's been described.

866

:

Trevor (2): When was it, when was

867

:

it phrase used previously?

868

:

Well, it was used by the,

uh, Bush administration,

869

:

the second invasion of Iraq.

870

:

Joe: You would think, you

871

:

Trevor: know, it's not a phrase that

goes down well, I wouldn't have thought.

872

:

And, and when you're cobbling together

a coalition to take on Ukraine,

873

:

Trevor (2): calling it the coalition

of the willing, just immediately says

874

:

to people, I've heard this before

and it didn't turn out real well.

875

:

Um,

876

:

Trevor: do I really want to do this again?

877

:

So, um, so basically Albanese put out

a statement saying that, I thought

878

:

Joe: this was a peacekeeping this time.

879

:

Well,

880

:

Trevor: yes.

881

:

But, I mean, the group is called

the Coalition of the Willing.

882

:

I'll talk about in a second what

the statement actually says,

883

:

but, um, uh, yeah, so here we go.

884

:

Um, tonight I joined a Coalition of

the Willing virtual meeting hosted by,

885

:

um, Keir Starmer along with Zelensky,

leaders from Europe, Canada, New Zealand.

886

:

I reiterated Australia's strong

and steadfast support for Ukraine.

887

:

And restated that Australia will stand

with Ukraine for as long as it takes.

888

:

By the way, remember those enlightened

days when a foreign minister stopped

889

:

an ex soldier from heading to Ukraine

on the grounds he was preparing to

890

:

fight with the notorious neo Nazi Azov

891

:

Trevor (2): battalion?

892

:

Trevor: Mm.

893

:

It wasn't that long ago

894

:

Trevor (2): that we stopped a guy

895

:

Trevor: going overseas

to fight for Ukraine.

896

:

Joe: Mm

897

:

Trevor: hmm.

898

:

Because they were crazy

neo Nazis over there.

899

:

Joe: Oh no, the Azov

battalion was crazy neo Nazis.

900

:

Yes, well they were part

of the Ukrainian army.

901

:

Yeah, they were.

902

:

They were useful idiots.

903

:

They died.

904

:

Oh, they're still there?

905

:

No, they're not.

906

:

Oh, they're all

907

:

Trevor: gone, aren't they?

908

:

Joe: Yeah, so the Azov

battalion, if it still exists,

909

:

was denazified a long time ago.

910

:

Weren't they?

911

:

But at one stage, yes, they

were a very useful nationalist.

912

:

group who were on the front line.

913

:

Trevor: I thought the Neo Nazi group

was in Kursk and were one of the

914

:

ones who were captured recently.

915

:

Joe: No, the Neo Nazi group was

Wagner PMC and they seem to have

916

:

fallen to pieces for some reason.

917

:

Trevor: On the Ukrainian side?

918

:

No, no, on the Russian side.

919

:

No, I'm talking about

the Ukrainian Nazi side.

920

:

Oh, yeah,

921

:

Joe: so the Ukrainians had their

Nazis fighting the Russian Nazis.

922

:

Yeah,

923

:

Trevor (2): well they'd

still be there, some of them.

924

:

I think most of

925

:

Joe: them are dead.

926

:

Trevor: Who knows?

927

:

Anyway, We're supporting a country,

we're not so long ago, we wouldn't

928

:

let people go and fight for them,

because they were neo Nazis.

929

:

Anyway,

930

:

Australia stands with Ukraine and

will continue to do so for as long

931

:

as it takes, but the right thing to

do, it's the right thing to do, and

932

:

it's in Australia's national interest.

933

:

Because what happens in the Euro

Atlantic has serious implications in our

934

:

region, the Indo Pacific and vice versa.

935

:

Oh, it doesn't?

936

:

Completely separate.

937

:

Joe: No, but the problem is if, if Putin

can steal parts of a sovereign neighbour,

938

:

then, and the US does nothing to intervene

and Europe does nothing to intervene,

939

:

then other strongmen get the hint that

they can go and invade their neighbours.

940

:

And that might well happen in

our area, in the Indo Pacific.

941

:

Trevor (2): It's such a long vojo.

942

:

But anyway.

943

:

Joe: Um, so East Timor might happen again.

944

:

I don't know if the Indonesians are

particularly expansionist at the moment.

945

:

I don't believe they are.

946

:

You know, I think they've, I think

they've, I think they've got what they've,

947

:

I think they've got the territories

that they want and everything else.

948

:

There may well have been some

discussions and that sort of stuff

949

:

that are probably around about.

950

:

20, possibly even 30 years old,

where we were actually concerned

951

:

about our nearest neighbor.

952

:

But, I think that since then, the

relations between our two countries

953

:

have moved in the right direction.

954

:

And I think you can count

them as a friend now.

955

:

Yes.

956

:

You know, we don't have an

alliance agreement with them.

957

:

However, they're one of those

countries that the Chinese would have

958

:

to pass through if they're actually

going to come here and invade us.

959

:

And I think the Indonesians would

probably give them a bloody nose if

960

:

they did actually come over here.

961

:

Hmm.

962

:

Trevor: Just getting back to this

statement by, um, Albanese, um, uh,

963

:

what does he say, here's, this is

a struggle not just for the people

964

:

of Ukraine and their national

sovereignty, this is a struggle

965

:

for the international rule of law.

966

:

The

967

:

Trevor (2): international rule of

law, meanwhile, as we will discuss

968

:

later in this podcast, Donald

Trump is proposing to annex Canada.

969

:

He is, he's intentionally,

he's intentionally

970

:

Trevor: putting tariffs on

them to weaken the economy to

971

:

make it easier to take it over.

972

:

He's reclaiming the Panama Canal.

973

:

He's, he's going to acquire Greenland.

974

:

And, a whole bunch of

things that he's doing.

975

:

Not a peep out of this fucking

Albanese government about any of that.

976

:

The French on the other

977

:

Joe: hand, apparently have a

nuclear missile sub parked in um,

978

:

Halifax, Nova Scotia at the moment.

979

:

Trevor (2): Oh, to support the Canadians.

980

:

Yes.

981

:

Well, they haven't said as much.

982

:

Jay, they would be supporting

the people of Quebec.

983

:

Well, that's what I said.

984

:

Who are not real Canadians,

according to the other Canadians.

985

:

No, no, they are real Canadians.

986

:

They hate each other.

987

:

The non French and the

988

:

Trevor (2): French Canadians They

989

:

have actually united in this

very much demand that they

990

:

not become part of America.

991

:

Trevor: Yes, they have

a joint enemy in that.

992

:

Yes, and that's Donald Trump.

993

:

So they'll unite to fight America off.

994

:

Yep.

995

:

And having accomplished that, they'll

go back to fighting amongst themselves

996

:

because they despise each other.

997

:

Oh yeah,

998

:

you know, the secessionist,

the secessionist movement will

999

:

start up again once the Yanks

have dispatched Donald Trump.

:

00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:36,040

Trevor: Yeah.

:

00:50:36,830 --> 00:50:38,340

Uh, but just what a joke.

:

00:50:38,380 --> 00:50:44,129

This is a struggle for the international

rule of law, yet our ally, America,

:

00:50:44,749 --> 00:50:49,960

is, is just on a rampage of breaking

international rules of law, and

:

00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,840

we don't say a peep about it.

:

00:50:53,340 --> 00:50:53,539

Joe: Well,

:

00:50:53,539 --> 00:50:54,050

Trevor: he hasn't

:

00:50:54,130 --> 00:50:54,390

Joe: yet

:

00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:55,190

Trevor: invaded.

:

00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:55,970

Yeah.

:

00:50:56,990 --> 00:50:58,130

But he's talking about it.

:

00:50:59,260 --> 00:51:02,110

He's saying these things, these

agreements, don't apply, so.

:

00:51:03,730 --> 00:51:07,090

Ah, at the end it says, We have a

proud tradition of supporting peace

:

00:51:07,090 --> 00:51:10,600

through 80 years of contributions to

international peacekeeping missions.

:

00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,630

Of course, peacekeeping

missions, by definition,

:

00:51:13,929 --> 00:51:16,380

require a precondition of peace.

:

00:51:16,905 --> 00:51:22,135

So, he seems to be saying that, um,

it needs to be a peaceful place before

:

00:51:22,135 --> 00:51:23,765

we would send a peacekeeping mission.

:

00:51:24,275 --> 00:51:24,685

Fair enough.

:

00:51:24,995 --> 00:51:25,235

Yeah.

:

00:51:25,235 --> 00:51:25,764

Yeah.

:

00:51:25,765 --> 00:51:26,315

That's fair enough.

:

00:51:26,445 --> 00:51:26,725

True.

:

00:51:28,435 --> 00:51:29,045

Yeah.

:

00:51:30,375 --> 00:51:31,815

Still on Australian news.

:

00:51:32,605 --> 00:51:34,004

Those hate speech laws.

:

00:51:34,644 --> 00:51:34,864

Joe: Uh huh.

:

00:51:34,875 --> 00:51:35,104

In the

:

00:51:35,104 --> 00:51:38,784

Trevor: show notes that the patrons

get, which for this particular

:

00:51:38,784 --> 00:51:43,425

episode, I reckon it's going to

go close to 60, 70 pages, um.

:

00:51:44,410 --> 00:51:49,960

For the show notes, so, remember,

um, Oscar Grenville from the

:

00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:51,600

Socialist Equality Party?

:

00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:53,039

Remember we've had those guys on twice?

:

00:51:53,260 --> 00:51:54,930

I remember them being on, yeah.

:

00:51:55,179 --> 00:51:55,859

Yeah, yeah.

:

00:51:55,860 --> 00:52:03,510

So, Oscar has written a, um, a

piece, uh, on their website, uh,

:

00:52:03,519 --> 00:52:05,190

all on these hate speech laws.

:

00:52:05,690 --> 00:52:14,090

Quite forensically, going through, um,

how the caravan was basically declared

:

00:52:14,260 --> 00:52:19,690

re that the Federal Police knew almost

straight away, within 24 hours, that this

:

00:52:19,690 --> 00:52:22,100

was not a genuine anti Semitic attack.

:

00:52:22,780 --> 00:52:28,795

And the story of the police is that

It's by criminal gangs who then tell

:

00:52:28,795 --> 00:52:36,465

the police about this load or cache of

explosives in the hope of getting reduced

:

00:52:36,474 --> 00:52:38,505

sentences for people already behind bars.

:

00:52:38,514 --> 00:52:40,994

So it's a complicated story like that.

:

00:52:42,755 --> 00:52:48,785

Also, the graffiti attacks, there

are about 12 of them, it also has

:

00:52:48,785 --> 00:52:54,955

been revealed that they were not

anti Semitic ideology based attacks.

:

00:52:55,105 --> 00:53:03,345

These were were small time

criminals hired to, to do this.

:

00:53:03,985 --> 00:53:07,225

So, he, he raises two points.

:

00:53:07,305 --> 00:53:13,735

That basically, the New South Wales

Premier certainly knew that these were

:

00:53:14,165 --> 00:53:22,325

not anti Semitic attacks when he passed

laws and promoted laws in New South Wales.

:

00:53:22,925 --> 00:53:27,335

Increasing fines for hate

speech and increasing, by

:

00:53:27,335 --> 00:53:28,815

definition, his hate speech.

:

00:53:28,905 --> 00:53:31,465

Saying, we need these laws

because look what's happening.

:

00:53:32,375 --> 00:53:37,365

At the time that he knew that these

were actually small time criminals, uh,

:

00:53:38,025 --> 00:53:40,845

causing mischief for people unknown.

:

00:53:41,505 --> 00:53:46,065

And perhaps Albanese knew as well, but we

don't know exactly when Albanese was told.

:

00:53:46,910 --> 00:53:48,200

Uh, about these.

:

00:53:48,660 --> 00:53:51,120

So that's number one.

:

00:53:51,620 --> 00:53:59,180

And number two, having passed these laws,

um, because of the outrage that's been

:

00:53:59,300 --> 00:54:04,840

whipped up, um, they were passed for sort

of really under, under a false pretense.

:

00:54:05,335 --> 00:54:09,755

And plenty of people are saying, we should

not have passed these laws, they include

:

00:54:09,775 --> 00:54:18,345

things in the federal case of minimum

mandatory sentences for Nazi emblems

:

00:54:18,345 --> 00:54:21,185

and swastikas and things like that.

:

00:54:21,325 --> 00:54:30,145

So, you know, if you were,

um, somebody wanting to have

:

00:54:30,485 --> 00:54:32,175

hate speech laws increased.

:

00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:41,350

And you hired a bunch of thugs to

do graffiti on places, uh, and then

:

00:54:43,100 --> 00:54:45,800

lots of stuff is written in the

paper about isn't this terrible,

:

00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,320

Australia is being, succumbing

to sort of an anti Semitism wave.

:

00:54:50,075 --> 00:54:54,225

And then la dee da, within a few

weeks, New South Wales and the federal

:

00:54:54,225 --> 00:54:57,505

government passed laws, beefed up laws.

:

00:54:59,855 --> 00:55:05,355

It's quite pathetic, isn't it, that

we've kind of fallen for a pathetic trap?

:

00:55:05,574 --> 00:55:05,774

I

:

00:55:06,225 --> 00:55:12,065

Joe: wonder if any of them can be used

in any ways for an interesting purpose.

:

00:55:13,365 --> 00:55:14,095

Trevor: What do you mean?

:

00:55:14,775 --> 00:55:20,635

Joe: Well, um, if a religious

leader was to make hateful

:

00:55:20,635 --> 00:55:22,295

remarks about another group.

:

00:55:23,505 --> 00:55:27,675

Trevor: It certainly is going

to cause people to, to think

:

00:55:27,675 --> 00:55:29,204

twice about criticising.

:

00:55:30,015 --> 00:55:31,185

What Israel's doing.

:

00:55:31,695 --> 00:55:35,645

Joe: No, no, but I mean if you could

go look the Christians have been doing

:

00:55:35,645 --> 00:55:44,674

hate speech under these laws and you

Demanded that you know, the Archbishop of

:

00:55:44,685 --> 00:55:49,425

Sydney was arrested under these laws How

long the laws would stay in the books?

:

00:55:50,510 --> 00:55:54,530

Trevor: Yes, if a major, uh,

mainstream religion fell foul,

:

00:55:54,530 --> 00:55:58,680

um, yeah, how long indeed?

:

00:55:59,660 --> 00:56:00,730

Well, they just wouldn't charge them.

:

00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,610

Joe: Well, but I mean, you could

then kick up a stink going, we're

:

00:56:04,610 --> 00:56:06,030

applying this law unequally.

:

00:56:06,260 --> 00:56:06,710

Yeah,

:

00:56:08,310 --> 00:56:09,230

Trevor: nobody listens, Joe.

:

00:56:10,180 --> 00:56:14,580

Joe: Talking of swastikas, did you know

that the Finnish army had swastikas on

:

00:56:14,580 --> 00:56:17,940

r equipment up until into the:

:

00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:18,700

Trevor: No.

:

00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:19,970

Yeah.

:

00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:22,810

Why?

:

00:56:23,969 --> 00:56:27,530

Because they had it before

the Finland was allied

:

00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:28,460

Joe: to the Nazis.

:

00:56:28,900 --> 00:56:31,230

No, but I mean, they had it even

before the Nazis were a thing.

:

00:56:31,460 --> 00:56:32,070

Trevor: Oh, really?

:

00:56:32,270 --> 00:56:35,400

So it was an emblem they used

before it became synonymous with

:

00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:36,300

Joe: Correct.

:

00:56:36,459 --> 00:56:37,449

Trevor: Nazi Germany, right?

:

00:56:37,459 --> 00:56:37,649

Joe: Yeah.

:

00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,319

Trevor: Yeah, probably should

have ditched it earlier.

:

00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,779

Even though it may have had

different meaning to them.

:

00:56:47,779 --> 00:56:50,559

Joe: I discovered that walking around

the tank museum with a Finnish friend.

:

00:56:51,219 --> 00:56:51,709

Trevor: And I saw a

:

00:56:51,709 --> 00:56:54,299

Joe: tank with saw stickers on it and

he's going, oh, that's a Finnish tank.

:

00:56:54,300 --> 00:56:54,689

Right.

:

00:56:55,069 --> 00:56:57,869

From the:

:

00:56:58,019 --> 00:56:58,639

Trevor: Yeah.

:

00:57:00,639 --> 00:57:02,189

Yeah, I'm just, I think that,

:

00:57:02,329 --> 00:57:09,529

um, in that, uh, museum, in

that, um, what do you call a, a

:

00:57:09,529 --> 00:57:11,249

cathedral in, in Christchurch?

:

00:57:11,269 --> 00:57:16,599

They had swastikas all around the, um, the

whole, right in the, in the, on the walls.

:

00:57:18,779 --> 00:57:19,219

Trevor: Yeah.

:

00:57:19,939 --> 00:57:26,469

So only 11 parliamentarians, um,

uh, voted against those new hate

:

00:57:26,469 --> 00:57:31,169

speech laws and they were all, uh,

basically independents, uh, all greens.

:

00:57:31,654 --> 00:57:38,314

So, um, this is where the main, major

parties just coalesce on stupid ideas,

:

00:57:38,414 --> 00:57:47,524

so, yeah, um, what else have I got

here, um, alright, before we move

:

00:57:47,524 --> 00:57:50,194

on to, what are we up to time wise?

:

00:57:50,294 --> 00:57:50,884

Scott!

:

00:57:51,174 --> 00:57:53,174

How long are you going to stay with

us before you need to go to bed?

:

00:57:54,094 --> 00:57:55,564

I don't know, we're in about 10 minutes.

:

00:57:55,594 --> 00:57:55,934

Alright,

:

00:57:55,935 --> 00:57:58,014

Trevor: you signal when

you're ready to go.

:

00:57:59,094 --> 00:58:06,164

Um, uh, before we get on to Trump, just,

just can't keep bypassing Gaza, so,

:

00:58:06,844 --> 00:58:12,344

um, Israeli Energy Minister Eli Cohen,

I've now signed an order to cut off

:

00:58:12,374 --> 00:58:14,404

electricity in the Gaza Strip immediately.

:

00:58:15,404 --> 00:58:17,154

Enough with the talk,

it's time for action.

:

00:58:17,814 --> 00:58:21,324

And of course, electricity is

used in desalination plants.

:

00:58:21,414 --> 00:58:26,564

So, uh, the ceasefire that was

organized has been breached.

:

00:58:26,644 --> 00:58:31,424

It's just a continual genocide

for the poor Palestinians in Gaza.

:

00:58:32,504 --> 00:58:37,259

Um Yeah, just keep going on.

:

00:58:37,639 --> 00:58:40,479

And speaking of, um, genocide, Syria.

:

00:58:40,699 --> 00:58:45,599

So now there's a, a war has

begun in Syria, where the

:

00:58:46,239 --> 00:58:50,699

Alawites and Christians are being

systematically attacked and murdered.

:

00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:52,189

By the Jihadis.

:

00:58:52,199 --> 00:58:56,219

Gee, who would have guessed

that that would come about?

:

00:58:57,109 --> 00:59:02,389

And, uh, so everyone was applauding

that, um, Assad was kicked out.

:

00:59:02,419 --> 00:59:09,009

And, of course, Jihadists were

installed and applauded by the West.

:

00:59:09,469 --> 00:59:12,439

Oh, they're different now,

because they're not wearing khaki.

:

00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,479

The leader's got a suit on now.

:

00:59:15,824 --> 00:59:19,324

They're just butchering people they

don't like of different religions.

:

00:59:19,344 --> 00:59:19,614

Well,

:

00:59:19,624 --> 00:59:24,904

Joe: it was left to the Russians

to, um, defend the peace in Syria.

:

00:59:25,254 --> 00:59:29,364

Trevor: Yeah, well, it was more than

they could handle, they figured.

:

00:59:29,604 --> 00:59:31,694

So, what'd you disappear for?

:

00:59:31,884 --> 00:59:32,534

What happened then?

:

00:59:33,914 --> 00:59:34,304

Say again?

:

00:59:34,324 --> 00:59:35,504

Did you disappear somehow then?

:

00:59:35,764 --> 00:59:37,144

Yeah, I just lost connection.

:

00:59:37,314 --> 00:59:38,014

Trevor: All right, okay.

:

00:59:38,645 --> 00:59:40,385

Um, okay.

:

00:59:40,865 --> 00:59:41,335

Trump.

:

00:59:41,335 --> 00:59:42,479

Ah.

:

00:59:45,274 --> 00:59:48,364

Let's talk about Trump

and Canada, first of all.

:

00:59:48,674 --> 00:59:55,554

So, I mean, how serious is

Trump's claims on Canada?

:

00:59:55,894 --> 01:00:03,594

And the New York Times reports that

Trump, in an early February call,

:

01:00:03,964 --> 01:00:09,884

challenged the border treaty between the

two countries and told Justin Trudeau he

:

01:00:09,884 --> 01:00:12,164

didn't like their shared water agreements.

:

01:00:12,654 --> 01:00:17,774

So the detail of the conversation

between Trump and Trudeau, in subsequent

:

01:00:17,784 --> 01:00:23,949

discussions, between officials have not

been previously fully reported, but the

:

01:00:23,949 --> 01:00:29,269

New York Times claims to know about it on

the condition of anonymity by four people.

:

01:00:29,779 --> 01:00:31,879

with first hand knowledge

of their content.

:

01:00:32,569 --> 01:00:34,509

So these are unnamed people.

:

01:00:34,659 --> 01:00:39,089

New York Times, bear all that in

mind as to how much you believe.

:

01:00:39,859 --> 01:00:40,079

x: I'm

:

01:00:40,079 --> 01:00:42,149

Trevor: gonna believe a fair

bit of it to tell you the truth.

:

01:00:42,699 --> 01:00:46,959

So, on those calls, Trump laid

out a long list of grievances.

:

01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:49,519

Um, and he brought up

something fundamental.

:

01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:54,129

He told Trudeau he did not believe

the treaty that demarcates the border

:

01:00:54,179 --> 01:00:55,849

between the two countries was valid.

:

01:00:56,309 --> 01:00:58,129

And he wants to revise the boundary.

:

01:00:58,864 --> 01:01:00,524

He offered no further explanation.

:

01:01:01,364 --> 01:01:04,604

hat border was established in:

:

01:01:05,464 --> 01:01:08,844

Kind of one of those international

rules of law type thing.

:

01:01:09,204 --> 01:01:12,544

Uh, that people are really

keen on most of the time.

:

01:01:13,224 --> 01:01:16,074

And Trump also mentioned

revisiting the sharing of lakes

:

01:01:16,074 --> 01:01:17,654

and rivers between the nations.

:

01:01:18,174 --> 01:01:20,354

Which is regulated by

a number of treaties.

:

01:01:21,054 --> 01:01:26,104

Um, so In subsequent calls, there was

one between the Secretary of Commerce

:

01:01:27,104 --> 01:01:31,914

Howard Lutnick, who had not yet been

confirmed by the Senate, and Canada's

:

01:01:31,924 --> 01:01:34,214

Finance Minister, Dominic LeBlanc.

:

01:01:34,264 --> 01:01:40,444

And in that conversation, Lutnick, um,

called and issued a message, according

:

01:01:40,444 --> 01:01:42,444

to several people familiar with the call.

:

01:01:42,984 --> 01:01:43,464

Uh, Mr.

:

01:01:43,464 --> 01:01:45,934

Trump had come to realise that the

relationship between the United

:

01:01:45,934 --> 01:01:48,614

States and Canada was governed

by a slew of agreements and

:

01:01:48,614 --> 01:01:50,244

treaties that were easy to abandon.

:

01:01:50,879 --> 01:01:54,809

And that Trump was interested in

doing just that and he wanted to

:

01:01:55,009 --> 01:01:59,119

eject Canada out of an intelligence

sharing group known as the Five Eyes.

:

01:01:59,729 --> 01:02:03,979

He wanted to tear up the Great Lakes

Agreement and conventions about how they

:

01:02:03,979 --> 01:02:09,639

share and manage the various lakes up

there and that he's reviewing military

:

01:02:09,639 --> 01:02:12,659

cooperation and blah, blah, blah.

:

01:02:12,769 --> 01:02:15,279

So, well, you can't blame Trump.

:

01:02:15,459 --> 01:02:18,019

I mean, those Canadians are always

causing trouble, aren't they?

:

01:02:18,959 --> 01:02:24,119

It's just, you know, they are the most

polite people in the face of the earth.

:

01:02:26,319 --> 01:02:31,109

You know, they just don't ever

cause any offence to anyone else.

:

01:02:31,109 --> 01:02:36,129

But like that, um, new Canadian prime

minister said, yes, we are overtly polite.

:

01:02:36,913 --> 01:02:39,124

But if you push us, we

will push back, you know?

:

01:02:40,784 --> 01:02:41,264

Trevor: Yeah.

:

01:02:41,514 --> 01:02:46,264

So, I mean, this is just a friendly

ally who's done nothing wrong.

:

01:02:46,384 --> 01:02:51,904

And, um, possibly because

Trudeau laughed about Trump in

:

01:02:51,904 --> 01:02:53,804

previous international meetings.

:

01:02:53,894 --> 01:02:58,904

Um, could be a reason why he's got a

personal grudge against the Canadians.

:

01:02:58,924 --> 01:03:03,784

But, uh So anyway, it's quite, quite

serious, the threats that are being

:

01:03:03,784 --> 01:03:10,944

made to the Canadians and of course,

Australia says nothing, um, you know,

:

01:03:11,004 --> 01:03:13,714

no words of support, nothing, um,

:

01:03:16,054 --> 01:03:17,844

so, um.

:

01:03:18,304 --> 01:03:21,744

Joe: Well, maybe the Britain should

just say, well, you know, the

:

01:03:22,144 --> 01:03:26,284

ceasefire at the end of the American

War of Independence was not valid.

:

01:03:26,554 --> 01:03:27,224

Trevor (3): Yes.

:

01:03:27,394 --> 01:03:31,194

Joe: And that actually America is

just, um, uh, British territory again.

:

01:03:31,564 --> 01:03:32,034

Yeah,

:

01:03:33,734 --> 01:03:35,154

Trevor: and just to see what happens.

:

01:03:35,163 --> 01:03:37,554

I mean, it wasn't only a couple, you

know, it's only a few hundred years

:

01:03:37,554 --> 01:03:39,384

ago, so it's only a recent document.

:

01:03:39,384 --> 01:03:40,064

Well, exactly.

:

01:03:40,154 --> 01:03:40,544

Yeah.

:

01:03:40,964 --> 01:03:42,984

Joe: I'm sure the other

Commonwealth states would join in.

:

01:03:43,394 --> 01:03:44,524

Trevor: Yeah, yeah.

:

01:03:45,204 --> 01:03:48,084

So, um, um,

:

01:03:50,114 --> 01:03:50,444

yeah.

:

01:03:50,504 --> 01:03:53,934

Bob Carr, former New South

Wales Premier, former

:

01:03:53,954 --> 01:03:54,654

Federal

:

01:03:54,924 --> 01:03:55,264

Trevor: Foreign

:

01:03:55,484 --> 01:03:55,554

Minister.

:

01:03:55,555 --> 01:03:56,484

Foreign Affairs Minister.

:

01:03:56,724 --> 01:04:00,394

Trevor: Hmm, says, time to drop

rhetoric about shared values.

:

01:04:00,394 --> 01:04:02,714

The US does not believe

in a rules based order.

:

01:04:03,413 --> 01:04:06,144

It's committed to a ruthless

pursuit of national interests.

:

01:04:07,019 --> 01:04:11,309

And in as predatory a style as

it's bullying can get away with.

:

01:04:11,779 --> 01:04:13,619

So, um,

:

01:04:15,729 --> 01:04:16,029

yeah.

:

01:04:16,109 --> 01:04:20,919

Some people would say, Oh, we can't say

anything nasty about, um, Americans.

:

01:04:20,919 --> 01:04:22,359

We have to tiptoe around them.

:

01:04:22,829 --> 01:04:28,849

Um, but, um, let's see what Yeah,

somewhere I've got a clip here.

:

01:04:29,459 --> 01:04:30,399

Malcolm Turnbull.

:

01:04:31,489 --> 01:04:33,939

What did Malcolm Turnbull say

about This is Malcolm Turnbull

:

01:04:33,949 --> 01:04:35,549

being interviewed on the 7.

:

01:04:35,549 --> 01:04:36,099

30 report.

:

01:04:36,769 --> 01:04:43,919

And the interviewer starts off by

saying, Well, we've got to be diplomatic.

:

01:04:43,959 --> 01:04:45,859

We've got to tiptoe around these things.

:

01:04:46,009 --> 01:04:49,149

Um, and here's what,

uh, Turnbull had to say.

:

01:04:49,479 --> 01:04:51,788

Clip: There was nothing erratic

in what you said, but you're

:

01:04:51,799 --> 01:04:55,179

still making an argument publicly.

:

01:04:55,419 --> 01:04:58,909

Is it easier and better for Australia

in this acute moment, when the tariff

:

01:04:58,909 --> 01:05:02,999

decision is obviously being made, if

diplomacists are given the maximum

:

01:05:02,999 --> 01:05:08,189

opportunity to operate behind closed

doors without Your intervention.

:

01:05:08,249 --> 01:05:11,060

I never thought I'd have to

defend free speech here on the 7.

:

01:05:11,060 --> 01:05:15,329

30 report and I'm, I'm glad

you're, you're, you're, you're

:

01:05:15,329 --> 01:05:17,469

a little bit embarrassed raising

that with me, aren't you?

:

01:05:17,470 --> 01:05:18,839

No, no, no.

:

01:05:18,839 --> 01:05:19,741

The matter is we have to speak up.

:

01:05:19,741 --> 01:05:21,288

It's just a question about the

moment that we find ourselves in.

:

01:05:21,288 --> 01:05:25,139

So I'm just, I think what I'm asking is

what leads you to say it at this time?

:

01:05:25,139 --> 01:05:28,709

What, what is it that Trump is

doing that has become so egregious

:

01:05:28,709 --> 01:05:29,989

that you have to speak out?

:

01:05:30,319 --> 01:05:31,009

Look around us.

:

01:05:31,009 --> 01:05:34,779

I mean, the, the, the impact

Trump is having on the world.

:

01:05:35,354 --> 01:05:39,884

on the Western Alliance, on

markets, on our economies.

:

01:05:40,214 --> 01:05:42,364

I mean, these are matters

that we have to talk about.

:

01:05:42,374 --> 01:05:47,264

We cannot continue this bipartisan

gaslighting that is going on at

:

01:05:47,264 --> 01:05:50,774

the moment, where there are these

massive changes in Washington

:

01:05:51,124 --> 01:05:53,394

affecting us and the whole world.

:

01:05:53,604 --> 01:05:56,663

I mean, look at the extraordinary

treatment of Canada.

:

01:05:57,074 --> 01:06:01,294

Efforts to basically cripple Canada's

economy in order to bully them.

:

01:06:01,739 --> 01:06:03,659

Into becoming the 51st state.

:

01:06:04,049 --> 01:06:07,899

I mean, you know, it is, this

is, this is all unprecedented.

:

01:06:08,259 --> 01:06:10,846

But yet, if you look to our political

leaders, there's nothing wrong

:

01:06:10,846 --> 01:06:17,399

with AUKUS, everything's fine, the

relationship is fine, nothing's changed.

:

01:06:17,469 --> 01:06:17,899

Let me come back to AUKUS.

:

01:06:17,909 --> 01:06:18,929

Well, it has changed.

:

01:06:18,929 --> 01:06:22,249

Let me come back to AUKUS in a

moment, because the question, I

:

01:06:22,249 --> 01:06:26,559

suppose, goes to, if you compare

how, uh, former Prime Minister

:

01:06:28,559 --> 01:06:28,839

Trevor (3): I thought

:

01:06:28,839 --> 01:06:31,079

Trevor: that, uh, was well

said by Malcolm Turnbull.

:

01:06:32,644 --> 01:06:33,174

Absolutely.

:

01:06:34,194 --> 01:06:36,934

Trevor: What's wrong with this

current group that none of them

:

01:06:36,974 --> 01:06:39,274

can talk sensibly like that?

:

01:06:40,374 --> 01:06:41,464

I don't understand it.

:

01:06:41,464 --> 01:06:43,814

I would have thought that someone

would have actually stood up

:

01:06:43,834 --> 01:06:46,744

and said no, you know, it's um,

:

01:06:49,134 --> 01:06:53,109

anyway, he's probably one of the more

sensible ones from that side of politics.

:

01:06:54,819 --> 01:07:01,339

Trevor: Anyway, it's not just Canada, it's

not just Australia, Trump is imposing the

:

01:07:01,339 --> 01:07:05,139

25 percent tariffs on imports from the EU.

:

01:07:05,139 --> 01:07:09,049

Even though he loves the

EU, he just has to do it.

:

01:07:09,879 --> 01:07:11,349

Joe: No, he doesn't like them.

:

01:07:11,879 --> 01:07:14,759

He feels that the EU was set

up to screw over America.

:

01:07:15,079 --> 01:07:16,129

Trevor: Yeah, but he still loves them.

:

01:07:17,064 --> 01:07:18,734

Let's, let's get it straight

from the horse's mouth.

:

01:07:19,124 --> 01:07:19,494

Here we go.

:

01:07:19,804 --> 01:07:21,934

Clip: Uh, we have made a decision.

:

01:07:21,954 --> 01:07:24,054

We'll be announcing it, uh, very soon.

:

01:07:24,084 --> 01:07:30,944

And it'll be 25%, generally speaking, and

that'll be on cars and all other things.

:

01:07:30,944 --> 01:07:34,854

And European Union is a different case

than Canada, different kind of case.

:

01:07:34,854 --> 01:07:37,204

They've really taken advantage

of us in a different way.

:

01:07:37,684 --> 01:07:39,454

They don't accept our cars.

:

01:07:39,834 --> 01:07:42,104

They don't accept essentially

our farm products.

:

01:07:42,104 --> 01:07:44,104

They use all sorts of reasons why not.

:

01:07:44,954 --> 01:07:48,434

And we accept everything of them,

and we have about a 300 billion

:

01:07:48,724 --> 01:07:50,454

deficit with the European Union.

:

01:07:50,454 --> 01:07:52,444

Now, I love the countries of Europe.

:

01:07:53,044 --> 01:07:56,644

I guess I'm, uh, from there at

some point a long time ago, right?

:

01:07:57,184 --> 01:08:01,514

But, uh, indirectly, well,

pretty directly, too, I guess.

:

01:08:01,944 --> 01:08:03,544

But I love the countries of Europe.

:

01:08:03,844 --> 01:08:05,934

I love all countries,

frankly, all different.

:

01:08:05,944 --> 01:08:09,184

But the European Union's

been It was formed in order

:

01:08:09,184 --> 01:08:10,534

to screw the United States.

:

01:08:10,534 --> 01:08:11,764

I mean, look, let's be honest.

:

01:08:12,309 --> 01:08:15,739

The European Union was formed in

order to screw the United States.

:

01:08:15,739 --> 01:08:16,889

That's the purpose of it.

:

01:08:18,889 --> 01:08:22,499

Trevor (2): He's such a great man that

he loves, he loves them despite the

:

01:08:22,499 --> 01:08:23,899

fact that they're screwing him over.

:

01:08:25,448 --> 01:08:25,559

He

:

01:08:25,559 --> 01:08:27,828

Joe: admires somebody who can

screw you over quite well.

:

01:08:27,969 --> 01:08:33,859

Well, he does, but historical

revisionism will Oh, God.

:

01:08:33,859 --> 01:08:35,099

He's indirectly related.

:

01:08:35,099 --> 01:08:36,889

His mother is fucking Scottish.

:

01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:37,679

Yeah.

:

01:08:39,679 --> 01:08:42,379

Trevor: So yeah, 25%

tariffs on the EU stuff.

:

01:08:42,469 --> 01:08:45,439

Um, that's, uh, that's coming.

:

01:08:45,649 --> 01:08:52,889

Um, Walmart went to its Chinese

suppliers and said, uh, you know, there's

:

01:08:52,889 --> 01:08:56,908

10%, um mm-hmm . Uh, tariff thingo.

:

01:08:57,029 --> 01:09:00,448

Um, we really don't wanna,

you know, have to pay that.

:

01:09:00,658 --> 01:09:02,339

Well, it's gonna cause us a problem.

:

01:09:02,879 --> 01:09:06,868

So what we want you to do is

to reduce your prices by 10%.

:

01:09:07,749 --> 01:09:11,828

They said that to their suppliers, so

that we can maintain our prices here.

:

01:09:12,419 --> 01:09:20,929

And, um, the good old Chinese government

hauled in the Walmart, uh, people,

:

01:09:21,738 --> 01:09:24,969

and, um, and basically told them, stop.

:

01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:28,259

Uh, don't put pressure on

our suppliers like that.

:

01:09:28,769 --> 01:09:30,759

Um, that's not going to happen.

:

01:09:31,299 --> 01:09:38,189

And, uh, what they say here, um, A post on

Wednesday, a social media account linked

:

01:09:38,219 --> 01:09:43,618

with the state broadcaster, said the

retailer was called in the previous day.

:

01:09:44,288 --> 01:09:48,779

It said that Walmart's alleged demands

on Chinese suppliers risk disrupting

:

01:09:48,779 --> 01:09:51,499

the supply chain and harming the

interests of businesses in both

:

01:09:51,538 --> 01:09:55,689

China and the US, and thus may breach

commercial contracts and undermine

:

01:09:55,689 --> 01:09:57,579

the stability of market transactions.

:

01:09:58,214 --> 01:10:05,344

And, um, uh, if Walmart continues down

this path, it may face consequences

:

01:10:05,344 --> 01:10:07,094

beyond a government summons.

:

01:10:07,154 --> 01:10:14,144

So, that's one way of dealing

with a bully American company, um,

:

01:10:14,774 --> 01:10:17,594

is to say, not so fast, stop it.

:

01:10:18,404 --> 01:10:22,943

Joe: Yeah, the Americans who voted him

in need to suffer the consequences.

:

01:10:23,124 --> 01:10:23,504

Yeah.

:

01:10:23,505 --> 01:10:23,809

Absolutely,

:

01:10:23,809 --> 01:10:27,151

I just think to myself, the

yanks have actually got to

:

01:10:27,151 --> 01:10:28,671

actually see what he's done.

:

01:10:28,671 --> 01:10:28,975

Joe: Yeah.

:

01:10:28,975 --> 01:10:29,279

Oh,

:

01:10:29,279 --> 01:10:30,494

but it's all Biden's

:

01:10:31,234 --> 01:10:32,084

Joe: fault, you know that.

:

01:10:33,004 --> 01:10:36,574

You know, it's all Biden's fault

because he's a dickhead, you know, it's

:

01:10:39,404 --> 01:10:39,914

Trevor (2): Greenland.

:

01:10:40,994 --> 01:10:42,124

It just doesn't stop there.

:

01:10:42,584 --> 01:10:43,354

Greenland.

:

01:10:44,779 --> 01:10:46,219

How much is he gonna pay for Greenland?

:

01:10:46,599 --> 01:10:47,279

Not a rule.

:

01:10:47,299 --> 01:10:47,899

Clip: What's the price tag?

:

01:10:48,639 --> 01:10:49,149

Trevor (2): Let's see.

:

01:10:49,199 --> 01:10:50,669

Clip: Well, maybe no price tag.

:

01:10:50,689 --> 01:10:54,239

You know, look, we're gonna have to

see what happens because, uh, Denmark,

:

01:10:54,239 --> 01:10:55,829

we need this for national security.

:

01:10:55,829 --> 01:10:57,149

We need Greenland very badly.

:

01:10:57,149 --> 01:11:01,779

You look at the Russian ships, the China

ships, they're all over the place there.

:

01:11:02,109 --> 01:11:04,059

you know, surrounding now

they have for a long time.

:

01:11:04,059 --> 01:11:04,709

That's a lane.

:

01:11:05,239 --> 01:11:08,439

But we need that for national security.

:

01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:11,929

So I don't know that Denmark

has any right title and interest

:

01:11:11,929 --> 01:11:12,859

and we're going to find that.

:

01:11:12,859 --> 01:11:15,329

But I can tell you, you saw

the clips that were released.

:

01:11:15,629 --> 01:11:19,519

The people of Greenland would

love to become A state of

:

01:11:19,519 --> 01:11:20,959

the United States of America.

:

01:11:21,159 --> 01:11:21,789

Trevor (2): No, they wouldn't.

:

01:11:24,459 --> 01:11:26,309

I'll cut that one, Stuart, because

:

01:11:29,139 --> 01:11:31,809

Trevor: Chinese and Russian

ships, they're in the shipping

:

01:11:31,809 --> 01:11:32,339

Joe: lines.

:

01:11:32,419 --> 01:11:37,409

There was supposed to be a referendum

on, um, Greenland's autonomy.

:

01:11:38,669 --> 01:11:41,909

And the Greenland government

apparently have called it off.

:

01:11:42,959 --> 01:11:44,129

For the time being.

:

01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:50,529

Because they want to be part

of, um, Denmark and NATO.

:

01:11:51,039 --> 01:11:53,279

Trevor: Right, right.

:

01:11:53,919 --> 01:11:56,989

Joe: Because they're, I don't know

what it was, it's not, it's a couple

:

01:11:56,989 --> 01:11:58,309

of hundred thousand people I think.

:

01:11:58,669 --> 01:11:59,909

It's not a huge population.

:

01:12:00,149 --> 01:12:04,439

Trevor: I see, so, so they're

worried about invasion from Russia.

:

01:12:05,079 --> 01:12:06,419

And they want to be part of NATO.

:

01:12:07,549 --> 01:12:11,599

Even though it is the Americans

who are threatening to

:

01:12:11,619 --> 01:12:12,789

Trevor (2): take their land.

:

01:12:13,539 --> 01:12:14,369

Is that where we're at?

:

01:12:14,370 --> 01:12:14,379

No,

:

01:12:14,379 --> 01:12:18,749

Joe: no, but um, Article 5 says that

anybody who puts boots on the land

:

01:12:19,409 --> 01:12:22,869

Trevor (2): Like, they want to be part

of NATO in order to stop the Americans.

:

01:12:22,949 --> 01:12:23,469

Joe: Yes,

:

01:12:26,419 --> 01:12:29,279

and Canada's also part of

NATO, if I remember correctly.

:

01:12:29,349 --> 01:12:31,009

Trevor: If they really want to

stop the Americans, they should

:

01:12:31,009 --> 01:12:32,209

join an alliance with Russia.

:

01:12:33,029 --> 01:12:34,379

It might be the way to do it.

:

01:12:34,749 --> 01:12:35,049

Joe: Well,

:

01:12:35,049 --> 01:12:35,359

Trevor: maybe.

:

01:12:35,565 --> 01:12:37,114

Joe: That's

:

01:12:37,193 --> 01:12:38,774

Trevor (2): the sort of lateral

thinking they should be doing.

:

01:12:39,014 --> 01:12:41,844

Joe: I mean, the French have

offered the French nuclear umbrella.

:

01:12:43,804 --> 01:12:44,344

Trevor (2): Literally?

:

01:12:44,394 --> 01:12:45,004

An umbrella?

:

01:12:46,074 --> 01:12:46,364

Joe: Yeah.

:

01:12:46,844 --> 01:12:47,914

Trevor: What does Vance, what does J.

:

01:12:47,914 --> 01:12:48,044

D.

:

01:12:48,044 --> 01:12:49,284

Vance say about Greenland?

:

01:12:49,284 --> 01:12:52,193

I think it's a similar tune

about national security.

:

01:12:52,443 --> 01:12:53,164

Let's see what he says.

:

01:12:53,284 --> 01:12:54,193

Clip: Do you expect the U.

:

01:12:54,193 --> 01:12:54,314

S.

:

01:12:54,314 --> 01:12:55,014

to acquire Greenland?

:

01:12:55,284 --> 01:12:56,693

I think it's possible, Maria.

:

01:12:56,864 --> 01:13:00,539

So, so here's the thing that I think a lot

of Folks don't appreciate about Greenland.

:

01:13:00,739 --> 01:13:02,749

It's really important to

our national security.

:

01:13:02,969 --> 01:13:06,889

There are sea lanes there that the

Chinese use that the Russians use

:

01:13:07,089 --> 01:13:11,279

that frankly, Denmark, which controls

Greenland, it's not doing its job

:

01:13:11,279 --> 01:13:12,529

and it's not being a good ally.

:

01:13:12,530 --> 01:13:14,939

So

:

01:13:17,219 --> 01:13:18,279

Trevor (2): it's not doing its job.

:

01:13:18,309 --> 01:13:20,679

It's not being a good ally

because it's allowing Chinese

:

01:13:20,749 --> 01:13:22,679

and Russian commercial ships.

:

01:13:23,199 --> 01:13:24,679

So he does have beautiful

eyeshadow though.

:

01:13:26,699 --> 01:13:27,389

Like for good.

:

01:13:27,729 --> 01:13:28,949

Trevor: All right, Scott.

:

01:13:29,049 --> 01:13:29,899

Um, yes.

:

01:13:30,189 --> 01:13:30,989

You're gonna head off?

:

01:13:31,179 --> 01:13:31,759

Yes I am.

:

01:13:31,969 --> 01:13:32,629

No worries.

:

01:13:32,899 --> 01:13:33,929

Good night everyone.

:

01:13:33,930 --> 01:13:34,625

See you next week Scott.

:

01:13:34,625 --> 01:13:35,181

Yeah, I'll see you

:

01:13:35,181 --> 01:13:35,459

next week.

:

01:13:35,459 --> 01:13:35,679

Bye now.

:

01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:37,079

Bye.

:

01:13:37,739 --> 01:13:39,488

Trevor: Joe, you were

still with me for a while?

:

01:13:39,488 --> 01:13:39,666

Yes.

:

01:13:39,666 --> 01:13:40,201

Trevor (2): Alright, that's a

:

01:13:40,201 --> 01:13:41,092

Clip: bit more JDV than that.

:

01:13:41,092 --> 01:13:43,529

How are we going to solve that problem,

solve our own national security?

:

01:13:43,659 --> 01:13:47,099

If that means that we need to take

more territorial interest in Greenland,

:

01:13:47,099 --> 01:13:50,104

then That is what President Trump is

going to do because he doesn't care

:

01:13:50,284 --> 01:13:52,124

about what the Europeans scream at us.

:

01:13:52,304 --> 01:13:55,044

He cares about putting the interests

of America's citizens first.

:

01:13:55,304 --> 01:13:57,614

There's another angle to this

whole Greenland thing, Maria,

:

01:13:57,614 --> 01:13:58,594

that people don't realize.

:

01:13:58,834 --> 01:14:02,454

You've got probably 55, 000 people

living on Greenland who are not

:

01:14:02,454 --> 01:14:04,644

actually happy with Danish government.

:

01:14:04,824 --> 01:14:06,824

They've got great natural resources there.

:

01:14:06,984 --> 01:14:10,764

They've got an incredibly bountiful

country that the Danes aren't

:

01:14:10,774 --> 01:14:12,854

letting them develop and explore.

:

01:14:12,974 --> 01:14:15,614

Of course, Donald Trump would

take a different approach if

:

01:14:15,614 --> 01:14:16,544

he was the leader of Greenland.

:

01:14:18,544 --> 01:14:21,754

Trevor: Why do I get the feeling

that, you know, in the not too

:

01:14:21,754 --> 01:14:26,804

distant future there's going to be

a colour revolution in Greenland?

:

01:14:27,144 --> 01:14:29,943

There's going to be

protesters in the street.

:

01:14:30,014 --> 01:14:31,524

Joe: Why would there

be a colour revolution?

:

01:14:31,524 --> 01:14:32,354

They don't work.

:

01:14:34,354 --> 01:14:35,754

Trevor: They do for regime change.

:

01:14:35,974 --> 01:14:36,954

Joe: Well no, they don't.

:

01:14:37,384 --> 01:14:38,184

Trevor: Work in Ukraine.

:

01:14:38,974 --> 01:14:42,004

Joe: Well it didn't, because Putin

tried a colour revolution for the

:

01:14:42,004 --> 01:14:43,735

last 10 years, it didn't work.

:

01:14:43,735 --> 01:14:44,774

No, no, it's not

:

01:14:44,774 --> 01:14:44,974

Trevor (2): Putin

:

01:14:45,024 --> 01:14:47,274

Trevor: who does the colour

revolutions, it's the Americans.

:

01:14:47,274 --> 01:14:47,484

No, no, but he

:

01:14:47,504 --> 01:14:50,834

Joe: followed the American plan,

exactly as it was written in the book.

:

01:14:51,264 --> 01:14:52,994

Trevor: We'll get on

to Ukraine in a second.

:

01:14:54,864 --> 01:14:56,024

Ah, what else have we got?

:

01:14:56,054 --> 01:15:00,544

Oh, actually, and just Trump on,

what did we do, we done Panama?

:

01:15:01,064 --> 01:15:01,774

Trump on Japan.

:

01:15:01,775 --> 01:15:03,774

That's a quick one, 20 seconds.

:

01:15:04,454 --> 01:15:06,284

Clip: But we have an

interesting deal with Japan.

:

01:15:06,714 --> 01:15:10,374

That we have to protect them, but

they don't have to protect us.

:

01:15:10,394 --> 01:15:11,154

You know that?

:

01:15:11,264 --> 01:15:12,384

That's the way the deal reads.

:

01:15:12,844 --> 01:15:14,474

We have to protect Japan.

:

01:15:15,704 --> 01:15:18,244

And by the way, they make a

fortune with us economically.

:

01:15:18,244 --> 01:15:21,294

There's another case, but

we have to protect Japan.

:

01:15:21,994 --> 01:15:25,104

But under no circumstances

do they have to protect us.

:

01:15:27,104 --> 01:15:30,274

Trevor: Yeah, he actually asks, who

made, who would make that deal, Joe?

:

01:15:30,704 --> 01:15:35,204

Joe: Strange that it's, it's almost

like Germany's not allowed to build

:

01:15:35,204 --> 01:15:37,134

up a large army for some reason.

:

01:15:37,134 --> 01:15:39,154

They, they're just not

pulling their weight in NATO.

:

01:15:39,844 --> 01:15:41,294

I can't figure out why.

:

01:15:42,184 --> 01:15:42,424

Yeah.

:

01:15:45,074 --> 01:15:48,544

It's not like they were conquered

in the:

:

01:15:48,544 --> 01:15:51,724

weren't allowed to have a standing

army and the rest of the world would

:

01:15:51,724 --> 01:15:53,474

provide their security on their behalf.

:

01:15:53,544 --> 01:15:58,464

Trevor: Yeah, it wasn't like Article 9

of the Constitution of Japan is a clause.

:

01:15:58,974 --> 01:16:02,414

Um, outlawing war as a means to settle

international disputes involving the

:

01:16:02,544 --> 01:16:09,604

state and, uh, drafted following the

surrender of Japan and, um, and basically

:

01:16:10,244 --> 01:16:16,924

drafted by the allies who imposed it on

Japan and, um, and basically renounces

:

01:16:16,954 --> 01:16:19,075

their right to sort of have an army.

:

01:16:19,184 --> 01:16:21,634

I mean, this was imposed by the.

:

01:16:22,129 --> 01:16:25,429

Victoria's allies on the Japanese.

:

01:16:25,430 --> 01:16:26,684

x: Yeah.

:

01:16:26,684 --> 01:16:27,939

Trevor: So,

:

01:16:29,939 --> 01:16:30,289

so yeah.

:

01:16:30,289 --> 01:16:33,439

There's a trip around the world

and I missed out the Panama Canal.

:

01:16:34,559 --> 01:16:36,109

There's similar stuff.

:

01:16:36,349 --> 01:16:39,219

Basically he says, we're just

reclaiming the Panama Canal.

:

01:16:39,519 --> 01:16:40,109

And, uh.

:

01:16:40,539 --> 01:16:41,369

Well it worked.

:

01:16:42,059 --> 01:16:43,729

Um, what worked?

:

01:16:44,599 --> 01:16:49,659

Joe: Well, um, the Chinese company

that owned the Panamanian port has

:

01:16:49,659 --> 01:16:51,449

sold it to some American company.

:

01:16:51,539 --> 01:16:52,099

Trevor: Right.

:

01:16:53,279 --> 01:16:54,689

Probably thought this is all too hard.

:

01:16:55,824 --> 01:16:56,574

Getting out of here.

:

01:16:56,943 --> 01:16:57,424

Probably.

:

01:16:57,434 --> 01:16:59,314

Do I have that one on?

:

01:16:59,344 --> 01:17:00,254

Let me just see if it is here.

:

01:17:00,384 --> 01:17:01,324

Actually, I do have this one.

:

01:17:01,334 --> 01:17:02,084

Seven seconds.

:

01:17:02,154 --> 01:17:02,914

Trump on Panama.

:

01:17:02,964 --> 01:17:07,104

Clip: My administration will

be reclaiming the Panama Canal.

:

01:17:09,104 --> 01:17:09,474

Trevor: Yeah.

:

01:17:09,794 --> 01:17:10,184

There we go.

:

01:17:11,414 --> 01:17:12,504

In case you doubted me.

:

01:17:13,994 --> 01:17:14,924

Free speech, Joe.

:

01:17:14,925 --> 01:17:15,739

Mm

:

01:17:15,739 --> 01:17:16,554

Joe: hmm.

:

01:17:16,734 --> 01:17:22,854

Trevor: So, starting with

America, Mahmood Khalil, um.

:

01:17:23,264 --> 01:17:23,764

Joe: Oh, yeah.

:

01:17:25,014 --> 01:17:34,943

Trevor: Um, so, he's a chap who was

involved in, um, sort of negotiating

:

01:17:34,954 --> 01:17:38,504

on behalf of protesters and other

people in one of these university

:

01:17:38,504 --> 01:17:46,023

protests, and he seems to have a

pretty scrupulous record, um, no

:

01:17:46,234 --> 01:17:48,523

substantial dirt has been dug up on him.

:

01:17:49,068 --> 01:17:50,898

He was just a negotiator.

:

01:17:51,379 --> 01:17:54,389

Hasn't said anything too bad.

:

01:17:54,398 --> 01:18:01,809

He's a permanent resident, married

to an American, and um, basically

:

01:18:01,809 --> 01:18:05,499

got picked up by the sort of, is it

Homeland Security or whatever they're

:

01:18:05,499 --> 01:18:08,699

called there, and um, dragged off.

:

01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:12,329

Um, and they're going to deport him.

:

01:18:13,179 --> 01:18:20,289

Um, his lawyers have not been able to

speak with him, but he knew that he was

:

01:18:20,289 --> 01:18:27,029

sort of in at risk and already had a team

of lawyers ready and they immediately

:

01:18:27,039 --> 01:18:32,009

lodged documents at like four o'clock

in the morning after he was taken away.

:

01:18:32,329 --> 01:18:38,799

So, um, so basically he's

just been calling for an end

:

01:18:38,799 --> 01:18:40,829

to the genocide in Palestine.

:

01:18:40,889 --> 01:18:48,539

And, um, And he's been arrested and

carted away and, you know, some people

:

01:18:48,539 --> 01:18:52,169

will say he's a terrorist and we're just

going to get rid of people like that.

:

01:18:52,219 --> 01:18:56,318

But he's done nothing remotely like

being a terrorist and has done nothing

:

01:18:56,749 --> 01:19:03,898

remotely supporting terrorism and,

um, and basically what this will come

:

01:19:03,898 --> 01:19:10,614

down to is an obscure provision in

the American law where Marco Rubio.

:

01:19:12,744 --> 01:19:19,824

If he comes to the opinion that an

individual is a risk to national

:

01:19:19,834 --> 01:19:24,344

security, then there's an ability for

:

01:19:24,344 --> 01:19:24,664

Joe: him

:

01:19:25,264 --> 01:19:25,874

Trevor: to deport.

:

01:19:28,193 --> 01:19:31,634

We might have, and there might

be circumstances where somebody

:

01:19:32,044 --> 01:19:33,914

is a risk to national security.

:

01:19:34,174 --> 01:19:36,943

Like you might know that they're

a spy or something like that.

:

01:19:36,984 --> 01:19:37,454

I don't know.

:

01:19:39,549 --> 01:19:46,189

But just a guy organizing a university

protest, um, protesting the genocide in

:

01:19:46,189 --> 01:19:50,629

Gaza, is being deported, you know, an

attempt to deport him out of the country.

:

01:19:50,629 --> 01:19:51,939

Joe: Supposing a terrorist organization.

:

01:19:52,209 --> 01:19:53,409

Trevor: So, that's what they're saying.

:

01:19:53,439 --> 01:20:03,779

But he is simply protesting the genocide

of Palestinians, so, oh boy, um, that will

:

01:20:03,779 --> 01:20:05,329

be interesting to see what happens there.

:

01:20:06,294 --> 01:20:09,693

And, um, um,

:

01:20:11,884 --> 01:20:13,094

you keep looking at the chat.

:

01:20:13,193 --> 01:20:15,894

By the way, in the chat, good

on you, Alex is busy in there,

:

01:20:15,904 --> 01:20:17,624

Essential Lord Don as well.

:

01:20:18,104 --> 01:20:20,954

Um, Leonard Hartbottom is in there.

:

01:20:21,424 --> 01:20:24,374

And, uh, a few others, keep chatting away.

:

01:20:24,434 --> 01:20:25,434

Alison was there earlier.

:

01:20:26,314 --> 01:20:30,064

Um, so, that's going to be a

test for the American system.

:

01:20:30,084 --> 01:20:35,514

I mean, when people talk about the

battle between democratic, liberal,

:

01:20:35,834 --> 01:20:40,674

freedom loving, civilization countries.

:

01:20:41,859 --> 01:20:46,009

As opposed to those authoritarian regimes

where they lock you up for nothing.

:

01:20:46,309 --> 01:20:50,568

Like, you gotta remember these

sorts of incidents where a

:

01:20:50,619 --> 01:20:56,109

permanent resident, legally in the

country, married to an American.

:

01:20:56,889 --> 01:21:03,689

She's eight months pregnant with

their baby, whisked away, and

:

01:21:03,898 --> 01:21:08,068

unable to talk to the lawyers, and

probably taken to a different state.

:

01:21:08,559 --> 01:21:11,579

Um, you know, mad rush.

:

01:21:11,648 --> 01:21:13,679

Like, these are the sorts

of things happening.

:

01:21:14,564 --> 01:21:15,074

Um,

:

01:21:17,204 --> 01:21:22,514

Joe: I would say that, um, he's

no different from Erdogan or

:

01:21:24,744 --> 01:21:27,594

who's the Hungarian, all that.

:

01:21:27,844 --> 01:21:30,334

Trevor: Yeah, yeah.

:

01:21:31,884 --> 01:21:38,374

Um, so yeah, it's free speech in the

free world until you say free Palestine.

:

01:21:40,064 --> 01:21:45,494

Um, and they really cracked down on

Columbia University and basically

:

01:21:45,504 --> 01:21:46,974

threatening that university.

:

01:21:47,939 --> 01:21:53,089

Uh, by cancelling grants that the

university relies on unless they adopt

:

01:21:53,089 --> 01:21:56,529

a hard line against protesting students.

:

01:21:56,589 --> 01:22:04,729

So, um, so, bully boy tactics

again against a university, um,

:

01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:10,919

basically threatening the entire

collapse of the Columbia University.

:

01:22:11,954 --> 01:22:12,624

If it doesn't,

:

01:22:14,773 --> 01:22:20,714

bend the knee, kiss the ring, and, and

do what the government wants in terms

:

01:22:20,714 --> 01:22:23,193

of dealing with protesting students.

:

01:22:24,354 --> 01:22:25,834

That's authoritarianism.

:

01:22:26,454 --> 01:22:30,464

Um, that's UK, that's US.

:

01:22:30,664 --> 01:22:37,004

In the UK, here's a clip where a

British policeman tells protesters

:

01:22:38,224 --> 01:22:43,354

That they're not allowed to protest,

unless they're supporting Israel.

:

01:22:43,374 --> 01:22:43,384

I

:

01:22:44,704 --> 01:22:48,294

Trevor (2): don't know if you got a chance

to see this one, Joe, um, beforehand,

:

01:22:48,334 --> 01:22:52,704

Trevor: let me, I hope it's here now,

I've said that, UK police, here we go.

:

01:22:52,984 --> 01:22:55,764

Clip: If you don't do that, you

are in breach of those conditions,

:

01:22:56,124 --> 01:22:57,184

and you could be arrested.

:

01:22:57,234 --> 01:22:58,402

What if we support Israel?

:

01:22:58,402 --> 01:23:00,832

Are we okay to stay or not?

:

01:23:00,832 --> 01:23:05,344

I think I made it quite clear

at which site it was about.

:

01:23:05,934 --> 01:23:12,004

If you are in support of Palestine,

then you are breaching your conditions.

:

01:23:12,023 --> 01:23:14,754

And if you are in support

of Israel, we can stay?

:

01:23:14,755 --> 01:23:18,180

If you are in support of

Palestine, absolutely.

:

01:23:18,180 --> 01:23:19,036

Congo, Sudan?

:

01:23:19,036 --> 01:23:21,177

So what is this about?

:

01:23:21,177 --> 01:23:22,890

What is it about?

:

01:23:22,890 --> 01:23:28,272

I understand if we can't protest

at all, but like If we protest for

:

01:23:28,272 --> 01:23:30,839

Palestine, Sudan, Congo, we can stay.

:

01:23:30,849 --> 01:23:33,849

If we protest for Israel, we can stay.

:

01:23:33,949 --> 01:23:35,109

Just to make this clear.

:

01:23:35,110 --> 01:23:38,129

x: What do

:

01:23:40,809 --> 01:23:41,398

Trevor: you think of that one, Joe?

:

01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:43,789

Joe: Ah, it's free speech.

:

01:23:44,429 --> 01:23:47,529

Admittedly, there is no free

speech, I think, in the UK.

:

01:23:48,799 --> 01:23:49,219

Oh.

:

01:23:51,219 --> 01:23:51,659

Yeah.

:

01:23:52,568 --> 01:23:55,009

No, it's elective enforcement of the law.

:

01:23:55,129 --> 01:23:55,709

I agree.

:

01:23:57,719 --> 01:23:57,859

Trevor: Ah.

:

01:23:59,259 --> 01:24:06,689

And then, here in Australia, burgatory

restaurant chain owner, Hash Tayeh,

:

01:24:07,299 --> 01:24:13,059

has been charged with using insulting

words in public for a chant at a pro

:

01:24:13,119 --> 01:24:15,849

Palestinian rally in the CBD last year.

:

01:24:15,929 --> 01:24:17,519

So this is in Australia.

:

01:24:18,144 --> 01:24:26,964

His chant was that all Zionists

are terrorists and basically there

:

01:24:26,964 --> 01:24:31,824

is a law, um, which is typically

:

01:24:31,824 --> 01:24:32,364

Joe: unjust.

:

01:24:32,364 --> 01:24:34,674

I'm sure there are some

Zionists who aren't, but,

:

01:24:35,724 --> 01:24:38,224

Trevor: uh, yes, you know,

:

01:24:40,574 --> 01:24:43,773

uh, an inaccurate chant Joe, for sure.

:

01:24:45,794 --> 01:24:52,864

But, um, nothing about Jews, just

Zionists, people who are in favour

:

01:24:52,864 --> 01:24:55,834

of the, um, Zionist project.

:

01:24:57,814 --> 01:25:05,234

Um, so there's a law which says,

which typically is used when somebody

:

01:25:05,234 --> 01:25:06,914

is insulting a police officer.

:

01:25:07,943 --> 01:25:08,494

Joe: Yes.

:

01:25:08,624 --> 01:25:13,314

Trevor: And it's, it's making an offence

when someone behaves in a riotous,

:

01:25:13,334 --> 01:25:16,144

indecent, offensive or insulting manner.

:

01:25:18,144 --> 01:25:25,023

is the, um, particular offence that

they're trying to nail this guy with

:

01:25:25,804 --> 01:25:33,574

for essentially political speech

because he's talking about Zionists,

:

01:25:33,644 --> 01:25:40,773

not Jews, not race, not ethnicity or

religion, the political ideology of

:

01:25:40,784 --> 01:25:45,174

Zionism and, um, and he's being charged.

:

01:25:45,779 --> 01:25:49,889

Um, with that, so, it's believed it's

the first time that a potential political

:

01:25:49,889 --> 01:25:53,239

speech has been deemed a criminal

offence that breached the insulting

:

01:25:53,249 --> 01:25:57,499

law, and, uh, the charges are normally

levied for using abusive or obscene

:

01:25:57,499 --> 01:25:58,949

language against police officers.

:

01:25:59,809 --> 01:26:04,529

Joe, we've often been quite pedantic

on this podcast distinguishing,

:

01:26:05,499 --> 01:26:08,251

uh, Jews and Zionists.

:

01:26:08,251 --> 01:26:08,806

Our

:

01:26:08,806 --> 01:26:09,916

Joe: Federal Attorney

:

01:26:09,916 --> 01:26:11,584

Trevor: General, Mark Dreyfus.

:

01:26:13,943 --> 01:26:21,724

Who is Jewish said the label

Zionist is used not in any way

:

01:26:21,734 --> 01:26:25,744

accurately when critics use that

word, they actually mean Jew.

:

01:26:26,304 --> 01:26:28,064

They're not really saying Zionist.

:

01:26:28,094 --> 01:26:30,964

They're saying Jew because

they know they cannot say Jew.

:

01:26:31,264 --> 01:26:36,324

So they say Zionist or

words such as Zio or Zio.

:

01:26:38,523 --> 01:26:39,523

How do you feel about that Joe?

:

01:26:41,484 --> 01:26:47,204

Joe: Um, I suspect that he has a vested

interest given that, is Dreyfus not a Jew?

:

01:26:49,273 --> 01:26:53,974

I, I would suggest that he's

deliberately conflating the two

:

01:26:54,714 --> 01:27:03,674

to, um, uh, quell dissent against

Israel's particular, uh, policies.

:

01:27:04,139 --> 01:27:04,619

Trevor (3): Yep.

:

01:27:05,279 --> 01:27:08,568

Joe: I mean, hopefully the

magistrate will see through it,

:

01:27:08,679 --> 01:27:10,189

presuming it's a magistrate.

:

01:27:10,549 --> 01:27:13,589

Trevor: Now Attorney General Mark

Dreyfus, the label Zionist is

:

01:27:13,589 --> 01:27:15,059

used not in any way accurately.

:

01:27:15,059 --> 01:27:17,129

When critics use that word,

they actually mean Jew.

:

01:27:18,318 --> 01:27:21,068

How can you say that

blanketly about everyone?

:

01:27:22,679 --> 01:27:23,129

Yeah.

:

01:27:23,779 --> 01:27:29,629

And um, Zeddy Lawrence, Executive

Director of Zionism Victoria said,

:

01:27:30,109 --> 01:27:33,179

given the overwhelming majority of

Jews in Victoria, Australia, and indeed

:

01:27:33,179 --> 01:27:35,318

the world, would identify as Zionist.

:

01:27:36,109 --> 01:27:39,529

Besmirching the latter is akin to

painting a target on the former.

:

01:27:39,639 --> 01:27:41,769

Joe: I don't know that that's true.

:

01:27:42,089 --> 01:27:42,799

Trevor: I don't either.

:

01:27:43,729 --> 01:27:44,449

I know it's not.

:

01:27:44,869 --> 01:27:45,249

Okay.

:

01:27:45,549 --> 01:27:45,979

Yeah.

:

01:27:46,949 --> 01:27:49,818

So, um, yeah.

:

01:27:50,009 --> 01:27:56,919

Joe: And again, uh, it's kind of,

do you believe in Zionism in that

:

01:27:56,939 --> 01:27:58,959

the Jews should have a state?

:

01:27:59,419 --> 01:28:03,099

Or do you believe in Zionism as in

the Jews should be on the East Bank?

:

01:28:03,100 --> 01:28:04,439

Trevor: Hmm.

:

01:28:05,099 --> 01:28:05,119

Joe: Yeah.

:

01:28:05,489 --> 01:28:06,309

I think they

:

01:28:06,539 --> 01:28:07,849

Trevor: Different forms

of Zionism out there.

:

01:28:07,869 --> 01:28:08,679

Joe: Absolutely.

:

01:28:08,749 --> 01:28:09,109

Trevor: Hmm.

:

01:28:10,074 --> 01:28:14,144

Joe: So you could be fully in support

of a Jewish homeland in a place that

:

01:28:14,144 --> 01:28:21,874

was negotiated and bought from willing

participants as compared to an invasion

:

01:28:21,874 --> 01:28:25,064

in:

:

01:28:25,934 --> 01:28:27,624

Trevor: But, you know, Joe,

the point on all this is that.

:

01:28:30,214 --> 01:28:33,074

Zionism is a political idea.

:

01:28:33,394 --> 01:28:34,564

It's an ideology.

:

01:28:34,754 --> 01:28:35,854

It's an idea.

:

01:28:36,094 --> 01:28:36,434

Joe: Correct.

:

01:28:36,443 --> 01:28:40,064

Trevor: And we should be

able to criticize ideas.

:

01:28:40,184 --> 01:28:40,504

Joe: Yep.

:

01:28:40,674 --> 01:28:44,684

Trevor: And we should be able to

criticize people for holding ideas.

:

01:28:44,884 --> 01:28:45,184

Joe: Yep.

:

01:28:45,273 --> 01:28:47,654

Trevor: If we think

that they're bad ideas.

:

01:28:48,234 --> 01:28:55,714

And that is completely different to people

having an attribute which is involuntary.

:

01:28:55,724 --> 01:29:01,314

You know, your race, your,

your gender, your sexuality.

:

01:29:01,314 --> 01:29:08,544

When people are subjected to criticism,

uh, for these things, um, you can

:

01:29:08,544 --> 01:29:10,804

understand that as a protected attribute.

:

01:29:10,904 --> 01:29:18,394

But when it comes to ideas, um, It

should be possible to insult ideas

:

01:29:18,434 --> 01:29:24,294

and people holding ideas without being

worried about them breaching any law.

:

01:29:24,664 --> 01:29:28,844

Because, um, ideas

should be up for debate.

:

01:29:28,984 --> 01:29:31,124

Joe: But this was always

the case with Islamophobia.

:

01:29:31,454 --> 01:29:31,943

Trevor: Yes.

:

01:29:32,299 --> 01:29:36,169

Joe: Where criticism of the religion was

taken as being a fear of brown people.

:

01:29:36,419 --> 01:29:37,119

Trevor: Correct.

:

01:29:37,309 --> 01:29:41,999

And this is where, from day one on

this podcast, I've tried to say to

:

01:29:41,999 --> 01:29:46,279

people, when it comes to the anti

discrimination laws and hate laws,

:

01:29:48,839 --> 01:29:54,439

Religion, at the behest of Christian

groups usually, has been lumped in to

:

01:29:54,439 --> 01:30:01,609

these anti discrimination laws as if it

is a gender, as if it is a skin colour.

:

01:30:03,359 --> 01:30:03,879

It's not.

:

01:30:03,898 --> 01:30:05,939

It is just another ideology.

:

01:30:06,284 --> 01:30:10,834

And some of the ideologies, religious

ideologies, are particularly

:

01:30:10,834 --> 01:30:16,834

distasteful and we should be able

to insult them and the stupid people

:

01:30:16,834 --> 01:30:22,189

who hold those, uh, some of the more

unsavoury religious Ideological views,

:

01:30:22,839 --> 01:30:28,959

without fear of being, um, trotted

off to court, breaching some rules.

:

01:30:28,969 --> 01:30:37,759

So, there's a distinction between

ideas that people hold and physical

:

01:30:37,839 --> 01:30:42,799

attributes that people have, uh,

through no fault of their own, and

:

01:30:42,799 --> 01:30:47,898

we, and we don't want people to be

discriminated against or subjected

:

01:30:47,898 --> 01:30:53,519

to insult because of, of attributes

over which they have no control.

:

01:30:53,864 --> 01:30:54,104

.

Joe: Mm.

:

01:30:54,773 --> 01:30:57,474

Trevor: But if people have

control over their ideas.

:

01:30:57,934 --> 01:31:01,884

Uh, and their stupid, harmful ideas, we

should be able to pipe up and say so,

:

01:31:02,784 --> 01:31:04,674

and it's becoming increasingly difficult.

:

01:31:05,714 --> 01:31:07,674

Joe: But if you're brainwashed

into your ideas, how much

:

01:31:07,674 --> 01:31:08,884

control do you have over them?

:

01:31:09,023 --> 01:31:09,734

Trevor: Well, that's true.

:

01:31:10,184 --> 01:31:15,184

And of course, a number of the laws that

have been drafted do include religion.

:

01:31:15,754 --> 01:31:17,644

They don't include Zionism.

:

01:31:17,954 --> 01:31:17,984

Joe: And

:

01:31:19,004 --> 01:31:24,934

Trevor: so there's an attempt here

where, um, to quell and to suppress

:

01:31:24,943 --> 01:31:27,214

debate about what Israel's up to.

:

01:31:27,764 --> 01:31:35,254

That people are trying to say sort

of commentary about Zionism is also

:

01:31:35,264 --> 01:31:43,574

a commentary about Jews is therefore

a religious Commentary and subject

:

01:31:43,644 --> 01:31:48,193

to all of those discrimination and

hate laws that have been created and

:

01:31:48,193 --> 01:31:54,164

are getting beefed up As we speak so

that's where we're at in a sort of a

:

01:31:55,804 --> 01:31:56,254

Joe: Yes.

:

01:31:56,344 --> 01:31:56,884

Trevor: Over here?

:

01:31:57,344 --> 01:31:57,894

Roughly?

:

01:31:58,234 --> 01:31:58,634

Hmm.

:

01:32:01,414 --> 01:32:06,384

Mary Kostakidis, former SBS

presenter, currently before court

:

01:32:06,394 --> 01:32:10,224

on the stuff she said on Twitter.

:

01:32:11,434 --> 01:32:15,224

Um, if you criticize an ideology

in public, you can now be

:

01:32:15,224 --> 01:32:16,693

charged with a crime by police.

:

01:32:17,443 --> 01:32:19,864

But only if that ideology is Zionism.

:

01:32:21,244 --> 01:32:22,114

Communism?

:

01:32:22,214 --> 01:32:23,054

Or Marxism?

:

01:32:23,134 --> 01:32:24,004

Or Feminism?

:

01:32:24,014 --> 01:32:24,943

Or Liberalism?

:

01:32:25,023 --> 01:32:26,554

No worries, just go for it.

:

01:32:26,610 --> 01:32:29,469

Just don't dare criticise Zionism.

:

01:32:30,219 --> 01:32:32,309

They will put all stops

out to put you in jail.

:

01:32:32,869 --> 01:32:36,898

At this point we might ask, just

who are the police working for?

:

01:32:38,019 --> 01:32:40,398

Apropos the argument most use of Zionists.

:

01:32:40,799 --> 01:32:43,669

Arguably, most Australian

women are feminists.

:

01:32:44,544 --> 01:32:50,064

But most of us aren't crazy enough to want

people who criticize feminism in jail.

:

01:32:50,984 --> 01:32:51,464

Good point.

:

01:32:53,464 --> 01:32:53,693

Ah.

:

01:32:54,704 --> 01:33:00,234

So she was talking about the

Ashteya case there, so um, ah.

:

01:33:00,773 --> 01:33:02,084

And meanwhile,

:

01:33:04,314 --> 01:33:11,514

six Melbourne Jews labelled anti Semites

by prominent lawyer Mark Leibler.

:

01:33:12,454 --> 01:33:16,244

Famous Jewish lawyer, have made a

formal complaint against him to the

:

01:33:16,254 --> 01:33:17,693

Australian Human Rights Commission.

:

01:33:17,914 --> 01:33:22,624

So six Jews, labelled by

another Jew as anti semitic.

:

01:33:23,004 --> 01:33:23,544

Yes.

:

01:33:23,764 --> 01:33:26,094

Have taken him to the

Human Rights Commission.

:

01:33:26,693 --> 01:33:31,664

Um, and what did he say

that caused them to do that?

:

01:33:31,754 --> 01:33:36,394

He said, Nothing but nothing is worse than

those Jews who level totally unfounded

:

01:33:36,394 --> 01:33:39,744

allegations of genocide and ethnic

cleansing against the state of Israel.

:

01:33:40,104 --> 01:33:42,334

They are repulsive and

revolting human beings.

:

01:33:42,384 --> 01:33:46,254

Their relatives, who were murdered by

the Nazis, the role models for Hamas will

:

01:33:46,254 --> 01:33:47,844

undoubtedly be turning in their graves.

:

01:33:48,224 --> 01:33:51,904

Their avowed anti Zionism is clearly

no more than a cover for the reality

:

01:33:52,273 --> 01:33:54,124

that they are vicious anti Semites.

:

01:33:55,394 --> 01:33:58,684

And the group that he was talking

about said, hang on a minute,

:

01:34:00,454 --> 01:34:01,374

Joe: we're Jewish.

:

01:34:03,604 --> 01:34:05,224

That sounds like hate speech to me.

:

01:34:06,634 --> 01:34:10,484

Trevor: Well, allegedly, Joe,

we'll, we'll, we'll, that's

:

01:34:10,484 --> 01:34:11,574

what these people are alleging.

:

01:34:11,624 --> 01:34:13,384

We'll see how that all pans out.

:

01:34:15,384 --> 01:34:16,514

Finally on this topic.

:

01:34:17,154 --> 01:34:17,744

Um,

:

01:34:18,904 --> 01:34:24,724

Joe: I think they did manage to roll

out some, um, concentration camp

:

01:34:24,724 --> 01:34:29,574

survivors who denounced the Israeli

government for their behavior,

:

01:34:31,574 --> 01:34:35,773

going, we've seen this behavior, probably

:

01:34:38,014 --> 01:34:41,193

going, we've seen this behavior

before and we're shocked that

:

01:34:41,193 --> 01:34:42,984

it's happening by Israeli people.

:

01:34:43,309 --> 01:34:43,898

Trevor: Yes.

:

01:34:45,299 --> 01:34:48,969

Careful, Mark Dreyfuss would say,

well, that sort of anti Zionist

:

01:34:48,969 --> 01:34:52,349

talk is actually anti Jewish

talk and you're an anti Semite.

:

01:34:53,659 --> 01:34:56,489

Because all, you know,

people are purposefully using

:

01:34:56,489 --> 01:34:58,509

Zionism as code for Jews.

:

01:34:58,510 --> 01:34:59,639

Joe: It's the

:

01:35:01,519 --> 01:35:02,419

Trevor: word that we need to use.

:

01:35:02,568 --> 01:35:03,339

Joe: Well, because I'm a Jew.

:

01:35:05,339 --> 01:35:08,849

Trevor: Joe, we spend all this

time arguing over words rather

:

01:35:08,849 --> 01:35:10,519

than denouncing genocide.

:

01:35:10,809 --> 01:35:11,568

Well, exactly.

:

01:35:12,909 --> 01:35:19,239

11 days before the Hamas attack on the

:

:

01:35:19,259 --> 01:35:24,759

Kurd published an essay entitled,

Jewish settlers stole my house,

:

01:35:24,759 --> 01:35:26,318

it's not my fault they're Jewish.

:

01:35:26,789 --> 01:35:30,869

In it he addressed the very distinction

which Mark Dreyfus insists critics

:

01:35:30,869 --> 01:35:34,859

of Israel and Israeli policy in

Australia are not genuinely making.

:

01:35:36,019 --> 01:35:42,689

So this um, Palestinian writer said, we

were instructed to distinguish Jews from

:

01:35:42,689 --> 01:35:45,259

Zionists with surgical precision, L.

:

01:35:45,259 --> 01:35:45,879

Kurd wrote.

:

01:35:46,464 --> 01:35:49,344

It didn't matter that their boots

were on our necks and that their

:

01:35:49,344 --> 01:35:51,014

bullets and batons bruised us.

:

01:35:51,494 --> 01:35:54,193

Our statelessness and

homelessness were trivial.

:

01:35:54,684 --> 01:35:58,364

What mattered was how we

spoke about our keepers.

:

01:35:58,943 --> 01:36:02,954

Not the conditions they kept us

under, blockaded, surrounded by

:

01:36:02,954 --> 01:36:06,273

colonies and military outposts, or

the fact that they kept us at all.

:

01:36:07,164 --> 01:36:11,054

Palestinians living and increasingly

being murdered under Israeli occupation.

:

01:36:11,469 --> 01:36:17,299

I'm surely entitled to wonder how the

semantic violence we practice with our

:

01:36:17,299 --> 01:36:22,909

words dwarfs the decades of systemic

and material violence enacted against

:

01:36:22,909 --> 01:36:26,029

us by the self proclaimed Jewish state.

:

01:36:27,259 --> 01:36:29,349

Worthwhile remembering

that all this talk over

:

01:36:31,603 --> 01:36:31,984

Words.

:

01:36:32,374 --> 01:36:37,004

Meanwhile, hardly any talk about

the actual genocide itself.

:

01:36:39,464 --> 01:36:39,484

Ugh.

:

01:36:40,764 --> 01:36:41,374

Ukraine, Joe.

:

01:36:42,184 --> 01:36:42,693

Joe: Mmm.

:

01:36:45,654 --> 01:36:51,464

Trevor: Um, so the Europeans are talking

about a massive rearmament program because

:

01:36:51,464 --> 01:36:53,103

they can't rely on the Americans anymore.

:

01:36:54,254 --> 01:36:58,974

And, um, this guy tweeted,

as a German, I just want to

:

01:36:58,974 --> 01:36:59,794

Trevor (2): get this straight.

:

01:36:59,964 --> 01:37:00,254

Yes.

:

01:37:00,284 --> 01:37:04,204

The entire Western world wants us to

build up a huge army, march through Poland

:

01:37:04,634 --> 01:37:06,234

and fight the Russians if necessary.

:

01:37:06,304 --> 01:37:06,624

Yep.

:

01:37:06,894 --> 01:37:10,304

Just writing this down so

there's no mistakes in future.

:

01:37:11,054 --> 01:37:11,624

Yes.

:

01:37:13,624 --> 01:37:14,264

Trevor (3): That was a good tweet.

:

01:37:14,734 --> 01:37:15,124

Mm hmm.

:

01:37:17,454 --> 01:37:18,193

Trevor: Um,

:

01:37:20,193 --> 01:37:26,603

the whole point is that Europe doesn't

have a, the necessary defense equipment,

:

01:37:26,634 --> 01:37:28,853

weapons, personnel, to sort of.

:

01:37:29,974 --> 01:37:30,704

To do anything.

:

01:37:30,714 --> 01:37:35,224

I mean, with, with the Americans not

offering, if the Americans pull out,

:

01:37:35,554 --> 01:37:37,594

there's nothing that Europeans can do.

:

01:37:37,794 --> 01:37:38,514

They don't have enough.

:

01:37:39,054 --> 01:37:42,144

Joe: No, my understanding is,

um, the Europeans don't have

:

01:37:42,144 --> 01:37:47,254

the heavy lift capability and,

uh, NATO was always US led.

:

01:37:48,034 --> 01:37:51,654

So the command and control

structure until recently was

:

01:37:51,654 --> 01:37:54,914

always headed up by a US general.

:

01:37:56,914 --> 01:38:00,904

Trevor: So, um, so even though they

might plan to rearm Europe, it's

:

01:38:00,904 --> 01:38:02,974

going to take a long time to do it.

:

01:38:04,494 --> 01:38:07,314

Um, uh,

:

01:38:10,264 --> 01:38:14,294

you know, as Farrah Farkas wrote something

about that, but I'll just let that one go.

:

01:38:14,353 --> 01:38:18,964

Um, Oh, regime change, Joe.

:

01:38:18,964 --> 01:38:19,334

Hmm.

:

01:38:20,494 --> 01:38:21,364

Should we talk about that?

:

01:38:22,704 --> 01:38:23,084

Joe: Yeah.

:

01:38:23,584 --> 01:38:23,943

Trevor: Literally.

:

01:38:25,664 --> 01:38:26,904

Uh, yeah.

:

01:38:27,424 --> 01:38:27,954

Okay.

:

01:38:28,334 --> 01:38:31,424

Senator Chris Murphy, American guy.

:

01:38:31,478 --> 01:38:32,239

Joe: Mm hmm.

:

01:38:32,389 --> 01:38:34,989

Trevor: Speaking in:

:

01:38:35,379 --> 01:38:35,818

Mm hmm.

:

01:38:35,829 --> 01:38:40,679

So let me see if I can

find the right one on him.

:

01:38:43,318 --> 01:38:43,809

Here he is.

:

01:38:45,454 --> 01:38:50,434

Um, I might pause it a few times during

this, so, um, So this guy's talking

:

01:38:50,434 --> 01:38:55,914

:

European committee, blah, blah, blah.

:

01:38:55,914 --> 01:38:56,023

So,

:

01:38:57,514 --> 01:38:57,844

Clip: here we go.

:

01:38:57,864 --> 01:39:02,344

I think it was our role, including

sanctions and threats of sanctions, that

:

01:39:02,344 --> 01:39:05,114

forced, in part, Yanukovych from office.

:

01:39:05,144 --> 01:39:09,004

Now, uh, the question is, what can

we do to support this new government?

:

01:39:09,004 --> 01:39:11,574

There's going to be a lot of

talk about an assistance package.

:

01:39:11,674 --> 01:39:14,264

With respect to Ukraine, we

have not sat on the sidelines.

:

01:39:14,284 --> 01:39:15,094

We have been.

:

01:39:15,459 --> 01:39:18,898

Um, very much involved, uh, you know,

members of the Senate who have been

:

01:39:18,898 --> 01:39:22,449

there, members of the State Department

who have been on the square, the

:

01:39:22,499 --> 01:39:27,089

administration, the Obama administration

passed sanctions, uh, the Senate, uh,

:

01:39:27,129 --> 01:39:30,199

was prepared to pass its own set of

sanctions, and as I said, I really think

:

01:39:30,199 --> 01:39:34,648

that the, uh, clear position of the

United States has in part been what has

:

01:39:34,648 --> 01:39:37,999

helped lead to this change in, uh, regime.

:

01:39:37,999 --> 01:39:42,898

So, um, I know that there is merit

in the claim that, um, the United

:

01:39:42,898 --> 01:39:46,318

States, sort of has these principles,

and then we selectively apply them.

:

01:39:46,318 --> 01:39:48,059

We get involved in certain

places, and then we don't

:

01:39:48,059 --> 01:39:49,839

get involved in other places.

:

01:39:49,849 --> 01:39:54,699

But, um, I think if ultimately this

is a peaceful transition to a new

:

01:39:54,709 --> 01:39:58,898

government in Ukraine, it'll be the

United States on the streets of Ukraine

:

01:39:58,909 --> 01:40:02,249

who will be seen as a great friend in

helping make that transition happen.

:

01:40:02,339 --> 01:40:07,464

This is really about Supporting one of the

biggest, most important countries in the

:

01:40:07,474 --> 01:40:12,634

Eurasian region, um, be able to determine

for themselves what their future is.

:

01:40:13,224 --> 01:40:17,804

And it looks to people like this is the

United States and Russia once again,

:

01:40:18,084 --> 01:40:23,054

uh, fighting, maybe not in military

terms, but on economic terms, in, uh,

:

01:40:23,144 --> 01:40:24,704

a country that we both care about.

:

01:40:24,714 --> 01:40:29,134

But really, ultimately, I think this is

about us supporting the wishes of Ukraine.

:

01:40:29,648 --> 01:40:32,589

Um, you know, the, the, there is a U.

:

01:40:32,589 --> 01:40:32,709

S.

:

01:40:32,709 --> 01:40:33,949

interest, uh, here.

:

01:40:33,969 --> 01:40:38,159

We are in the middle of negotiating

a new trade agreement with Europe.

:

01:40:38,179 --> 01:40:40,259

Um, to my state, it's

enormously important.

:

01:40:40,269 --> 01:40:43,739

We do 40 percent of our trade

in Connecticut with Europe.

:

01:40:43,779 --> 01:40:49,159

Um, if Ukraine is part of the European

Union, um, and thus is part of this new

:

01:40:49,159 --> 01:40:50,949

trade agreement with the United States.

:

01:40:51,174 --> 01:40:56,954

That could result in billions of dollars

in new economic opportunities for the U.

:

01:40:56,954 --> 01:40:57,134

S.

:

01:40:57,144 --> 01:41:00,853

So, we do have an economic interest

in the Ukraine being part of the

:

01:41:00,853 --> 01:41:04,984

European Union, and we shouldn't be shy

about, um, making clear that interest.

:

01:41:05,114 --> 01:41:09,794

that Yanukovych was elected, uh, for the

first time in:

:

01:41:10,134 --> 01:41:12,824

elections were scheduled for:

:

01:41:13,624 --> 01:41:17,764

Uh, the second point is Uh, why is it

okay for foreign ministers from other

:

01:41:17,764 --> 01:41:21,603

countries to show up during protest

movements, uh, let's say in Ukraine, like

:

01:41:21,603 --> 01:41:25,684

the foreign ministers of Poland and, and

then Germany, and support the protesters

:

01:41:25,714 --> 01:41:27,184

against the current government there?

:

01:41:27,184 --> 01:41:30,554

Wouldn't it be something similar to,

um, the foreign ministers of, let's

:

01:41:30,554 --> 01:41:33,924

say, Mexico and Canada showing up,

uh, during the Occupy Wall Street

:

01:41:33,924 --> 01:41:36,324

movement and saying, yes, we agree

that your government is corrupt?

:

01:41:36,844 --> 01:41:40,534

And the third point is, why isn't the

West and America talking about the fact

:

01:41:40,534 --> 01:41:44,209

that, um, A large or significant portion

of the Ukrainian opposition right now is

:

01:41:44,259 --> 01:41:50,449

made up of, uh, far right, um, politicians

including from the, uh, the party Svoboda,

:

01:41:50,478 --> 01:41:54,159

which openly is fascist and xenophobic

and they said that they don't want to

:

01:41:54,159 --> 01:41:58,049

join the EU because they consider the

EU to be a bunch of gays and Jews, just

:

01:41:58,049 --> 01:42:01,239

as well as they say that they don't want

to join the imperialist Moscow regime.

:

01:42:02,639 --> 01:42:07,519

Um, let me, let me take, take all

those, uh, very quickly, one at a time.

:

01:42:07,549 --> 01:42:10,599

Um, you're right, America, which was

elected, and I mentioned this before,

:

01:42:10,929 --> 01:42:14,709

Um, I, I understand the difficult

position here, which is that, uh,

:

01:42:14,749 --> 01:42:20,329

Yanukovych was elected and we are not

in the business of encouraging, uh,

:

01:42:20,359 --> 01:42:23,989

rebellions and revolutions, uh, on the

streets against elected leaders because

:

01:42:23,989 --> 01:42:26,909

we ultimately think that elections, as

you mentioned, are the place in which

:

01:42:27,209 --> 01:42:28,579

you should settle your differences.

:

01:42:28,579 --> 01:42:32,609

The, the issue here is that, um,

Yanukovych lost his legitimacy to

:

01:42:32,609 --> 01:42:37,189

govern when he used force to try

to break up these protests and the

:

01:42:37,189 --> 01:42:42,889

United States, Um, didn't go on to

that square in any meaningful way,

:

01:42:42,929 --> 01:42:48,339

uh, until, uh, the president tried

to break up the peaceful protests.

:

01:42:48,339 --> 01:42:50,249

That's why Senator McCain and I went.

:

01:42:50,249 --> 01:42:53,379

And we certainly got a lot of

grief from people asking why two U.

:

01:42:53,379 --> 01:42:53,439

S.

:

01:42:53,449 --> 01:42:56,139

Senators are going to the square

to support a protest movement

:

01:42:56,139 --> 01:42:57,379

against an elected government.

:

01:42:57,629 --> 01:43:00,068

We did that because we think that

there were human rights and civil

:

01:43:00,068 --> 01:43:02,459

rights that were violated there,

and we've always stood up for that.

:

01:43:02,849 --> 01:43:04,029

Uh, for that concept.

:

01:43:04,179 --> 01:43:06,939

And again, I think that answers your

second question as to why you had,

:

01:43:07,259 --> 01:43:11,059

um, foreign ministers and foreign

leaders who were on that square.

:

01:43:11,068 --> 01:43:13,269

It was because we're standing

up for the idea that people

:

01:43:13,269 --> 01:43:15,148

should be able to lodge, protest.

:

01:43:17,148 --> 01:43:18,648

Trevor: So, you know, three things.

:

01:43:19,289 --> 01:43:24,309

One is boasting about their

involvement in regime change.

:

01:43:24,449 --> 01:43:25,769

Joe: With sanctions, yes.

:

01:43:26,228 --> 01:43:29,909

Trevor: Um, and Being on

the ground in the square.

:

01:43:30,179 --> 01:43:30,829

Joe: Yes.

:

01:43:31,369 --> 01:43:35,309

Trevor: Second was, uh, less

important, which was, you know,

:

01:43:35,359 --> 01:43:38,769

my state's going to make money

out of economic stuff, who cares.

:

01:43:39,269 --> 01:43:45,478

But the third one was, oh look, you know,

why are you overthrowing democracies?

:

01:43:45,974 --> 01:43:47,884

favour of democracies?

:

01:43:48,374 --> 01:43:53,324

And his answer was, well, we had to

move in for humanitarian reasons.

:

01:43:53,434 --> 01:43:53,773

Joe: Yeah.

:

01:43:53,864 --> 01:43:54,934

Trevor: Because of the

:

01:43:55,394 --> 01:43:57,514

Joe: Because of the violent

crackdowns against protesters.

:

01:43:57,594 --> 01:43:58,484

Trevor: Of the violence.

:

01:43:59,164 --> 01:44:06,134

So, so this is the key part of all

that, I reckon, is if you want to,

:

01:44:07,754 --> 01:44:14,964

um, an excuse for regime change,

all you need is a violent protest.

:

01:44:15,834 --> 01:44:24,254

And, and the question is, It's

always hard to determine who is

:

01:44:24,254 --> 01:44:26,674

responsible for the violent protest.

:

01:44:27,414 --> 01:44:31,984

Joe: Yeah, those poor Burkitt were

forced to beat the people senseless

:

01:44:32,074 --> 01:44:33,744

in front of TV cameras, weren't they?

:

01:44:33,954 --> 01:44:40,884

Trevor: There's, and there's lots of

evidence about Um, about the violence

:

01:44:40,904 --> 01:44:45,664

not emanating, a lot of violence not

emanating from the government side.

:

01:44:45,884 --> 01:44:51,804

Like, if you, if for example, you've

spent, I don't know, 5 billion in,

:

01:44:54,744 --> 01:44:58,574

um, propaganda in the Ukraine,

which the Americans admit to.

:

01:44:59,669 --> 01:45:06,219

And if, for example, you are working,

you know, Yats is your guy, because

:

01:45:06,529 --> 01:45:08,228

you're caught on a telephone call,

:

01:45:08,728 --> 01:45:10,869

Trevor (2): um, so you're, you're trying

:

01:45:10,869 --> 01:45:15,639

Joe: to That's interesting, the

telephone call, Yanukovych approached

:

01:45:16,049 --> 01:45:22,099

the, um, the leaders of the protest

movement, and said, if you break

:

01:45:22,099 --> 01:45:26,269

up this protest, I'll have three of

you, no sorry, I'll have two of you.

:

01:45:27,129 --> 01:45:31,079

two of the leaders as

ministers in my government.

:

01:45:32,869 --> 01:45:36,349

So the three leaders of

the protests went to the U.

:

01:45:36,349 --> 01:45:36,519

S.

:

01:45:36,519 --> 01:45:39,529

embassy and said, all right,

we've been given this opportunity.

:

01:45:39,664 --> 01:45:42,404

What, what do you think of this?

:

01:45:43,064 --> 01:45:44,844

And so there was a debate inside the U.

:

01:45:44,844 --> 01:45:44,984

S.

:

01:45:44,984 --> 01:45:52,674

office that was bugged by the FSB, uh,

that they were talking about, was it a

:

01:45:52,674 --> 01:45:55,304

trap, you know, what was the downside?

:

01:45:55,693 --> 01:45:59,103

And they basically said, one of

these three guys is a neo Nazi.

:

01:46:00,144 --> 01:46:05,084

So if two of you come in as ministers,

the neo Nazi is going to be left as the

:

01:46:05,084 --> 01:46:09,704

sole leader of the protests, which doesn't

look good because then they can dismiss

:

01:46:09,704 --> 01:46:12,094

the protests as being led by a neo Nazi.

:

01:46:13,224 --> 01:46:16,124

So of the two that's remaining,

which one is going to take up the

:

01:46:16,124 --> 01:46:19,344

ministership inside this government?

:

01:46:19,784 --> 01:46:21,794

And the answer was Yatz is our guy.

:

01:46:22,294 --> 01:46:26,454

Yatz is the guy with the most

experience, he's already served, and

:

01:46:26,454 --> 01:46:30,234

what happens, he was the guy who was

the leader of the opposition party.

:

01:46:31,419 --> 01:46:35,119

And when the government fell, the leader

of the opposition party, strangely

:

01:46:35,129 --> 01:46:39,279

enough, became the interim prime

minister, or president, whatever he was.

:

01:46:39,579 --> 01:46:40,099

Right.

:

01:46:40,299 --> 01:46:41,469

And did the EU want him?

:

01:46:42,609 --> 01:46:45,679

Uh, I don't know whether

the EU wanted him.

:

01:46:45,939 --> 01:46:48,228

Trevor: Oh, it was just that

when Newland said, fuck the EU.

:

01:46:48,299 --> 01:46:49,629

No, I think that was something else.

:

01:46:51,639 --> 01:46:52,039

Joe: Anyway.

:

01:46:53,869 --> 01:46:58,469

But what he doesn't hear, because it was

in Russian, was the conversation from

:

01:46:58,478 --> 01:47:03,759

the Kremlin at the same time, talking

to their people in Donetsk and Luhansk,

:

01:47:03,759 --> 01:47:08,089

who were saying, now is the time to

revolt, we will come in and aid you.

:

01:47:09,818 --> 01:47:15,299

Trevor: So if, if for example, you're

involved in regime change multiple

:

01:47:15,299 --> 01:47:17,814

times around the world, Yeah.

:

01:47:17,814 --> 01:47:20,434

And the CIA is involved in regime change.

:

01:47:21,364 --> 01:47:21,804

Yeah.

:

01:47:21,894 --> 01:47:23,064

Joe: Apparently not very good.

:

01:47:25,064 --> 01:47:31,204

Trevor: From, from the beginning

with Mossadegh in Iran.

:

01:47:31,394 --> 01:47:31,704

Joe: Mm

:

01:47:32,174 --> 01:47:32,314

Trevor: hmm.

:

01:47:32,384 --> 01:47:36,144

There's, there's a litany of

times where the CIA goes in.

:

01:47:36,174 --> 01:47:37,924

Joe: They've been accused of a lot.

:

01:47:37,964 --> 01:47:40,378

The question is actually

how competent they are.

:

01:47:40,378 --> 01:47:45,874

And apparently that's debatable as

to exactly how competent they are.

:

01:47:46,648 --> 01:47:52,398

Trevor: Well, uh, they're pretty

competent in Guatemala, they're pretty

:

01:47:52,398 --> 01:47:58,449

competent in Chile, they're pretty

competent in Iran, like, like they've,

:

01:48:00,449 --> 01:48:01,759

they've done it on a number of occasions.

:

01:48:02,009 --> 01:48:02,299

They've

:

01:48:02,299 --> 01:48:05,289

Joe: generally supported

an already existing person.

:

01:48:05,419 --> 01:48:07,369

They've, they've helped

somebody get into power.

:

01:48:07,779 --> 01:48:07,949

Trevor: Right.

:

01:48:08,209 --> 01:48:10,409

Joe: And, and quite often they've, um.

:

01:48:10,629 --> 01:48:15,179

Trevor: So, so you don't think the

CIA has a program, an intentional

:

01:48:15,179 --> 01:48:23,023

program, Of going into countries that

they want to convert to a pro Western

:

01:48:23,023 --> 01:48:29,344

viewpoint, of providing propaganda

and of supporting opposition elements.

:

01:48:30,494 --> 01:48:34,824

In those countries, you don't

think they're into that?

:

01:48:35,344 --> 01:48:35,494

I

:

01:48:35,504 --> 01:48:40,174

Joe: do, but, uh, I don't know

how successful they've been.

:

01:48:40,174 --> 01:48:45,534

Trevor: If, if for example, you

get to the point where you've spent

:

01:48:45,544 --> 01:48:48,564

5 billion, which they admit to.

:

01:48:49,094 --> 01:48:49,534

Yeah.

:

01:48:50,853 --> 01:48:51,924

In Ukraine.

:

01:48:52,074 --> 01:48:52,634

Mm hmm.

:

01:48:52,634 --> 01:48:54,173

To, for propaganda purposes.

:

01:48:54,173 --> 01:48:56,866

Did they poison an

opposition leader, possibly?

:

01:48:56,866 --> 01:48:59,174

Joe: Did they poison an opposition leader?

:

01:49:00,234 --> 01:49:01,304

Dodgy shellfish,

:

01:49:01,344 --> 01:49:02,984

Trevor: you know, strange,

:

01:49:03,704 --> 01:49:04,174

Joe: disfiguring.

:

01:49:04,193 --> 01:49:04,353

I'm

:

01:49:04,353 --> 01:49:06,214

Trevor: not saying the

Russians are innocent.

:

01:49:06,314 --> 01:49:06,943

Oh, no.

:

01:49:07,844 --> 01:49:11,114

I'm not saying for a minute

that the Russians did nothing.

:

01:49:12,114 --> 01:49:15,674

Joe: So maybe the Americans did

it because they saw the Russians

:

01:49:15,734 --> 01:49:20,244

stepping in and they went, well, maybe

we should be doing our own bit of.

:

01:49:20,304 --> 01:49:21,094

Who

:

01:49:21,273 --> 01:49:21,984

Trevor: cares who's first?

:

01:49:22,124 --> 01:49:22,603

Joe: Right.

:

01:49:23,744 --> 01:49:25,264

Trevor: You could argue for, you

:

01:49:25,724 --> 01:49:26,074

Joe: know,

:

01:49:26,414 --> 01:49:26,764

Trevor: who started.

:

01:49:26,784 --> 01:49:27,454

Who knows?

:

01:49:27,523 --> 01:49:28,624

We'd never know, would we?

:

01:49:29,634 --> 01:49:34,864

If you accept the proposition the

CIA is in the business of regime

:

01:49:34,864 --> 01:49:39,584

change and installs US friendly

:

01:49:40,164 --> 01:49:41,844

Joe: But that would suggest that the U.

:

01:49:41,844 --> 01:49:42,054

S.

:

01:49:42,074 --> 01:49:52,304

was interested in Ukraine and by all, so

Bush was, but by all accounts, um, uh,

:

01:49:52,314 --> 01:49:54,484

Obama didn't give a fuck about Ukraine.

:

01:49:54,484 --> 01:49:59,879

Trevor: But we know they spent 5

billion on propaganda in Ukraine.

:

01:50:00,259 --> 01:50:01,409

That's on the record.

:

01:50:01,889 --> 01:50:06,139

Joe: And is it propaganda or

is it just, um, the usual,

:

01:50:06,949 --> 01:50:09,279

uh, investigative reporting?

:

01:50:10,419 --> 01:50:16,499

Trevor: No, it was on, it was on

journalists and, and news outlets

:

01:50:17,109 --> 01:50:22,318

that they funded that provided

a pro Western viewpoint and

:

01:50:22,318 --> 01:50:24,039

they provided money for people.

:

01:50:24,039 --> 01:50:25,019

Because my understanding

:

01:50:25,019 --> 01:50:31,264

Joe: is they've provided money

for independent journalists.

:

01:50:31,324 --> 01:50:35,884

I don't know how much of that is

pro Western journalists, but a lot

:

01:50:35,884 --> 01:50:37,523

of it was just exposing corruption.

:

01:50:38,384 --> 01:50:40,434

And Ukraine was a very corrupt state.

:

01:50:41,074 --> 01:50:41,924

Five billion

:

01:50:41,924 --> 01:50:42,853

Trevor: dollars worth?

:

01:50:43,344 --> 01:50:45,103

Joe: Over what period of time?

:

01:50:45,504 --> 01:50:49,273

Trevor: I'm not going to convince you, but

here's the theory that I'll put forward.

:

01:50:49,814 --> 01:50:56,023

Is if you have spent five billion dollars

on propaganda in the Ukraine, Yeah.

:

01:50:56,124 --> 01:50:56,554

And.

:

01:50:57,294 --> 01:50:59,844

Um, uh,

:

01:51:02,054 --> 01:51:08,504

you've got a democratically elected

government that you don't like, then

:

01:51:09,124 --> 01:51:17,014

according to that American, if there

is sufficient violence, then that

:

01:51:17,184 --> 01:51:23,644

is a green light to then dismiss the

legitimacy of the democratically elected

:

01:51:25,974 --> 01:51:27,124

and to back.

:

01:51:27,809 --> 01:51:32,679

A, a, a rebel uprising or a, a,

:

01:51:32,679 --> 01:51:32,759

Joe: an

:

01:51:33,769 --> 01:51:36,269

Trevor: unelected group who

comes in and takes power.

:

01:51:36,359 --> 01:51:42,259

So essentially what he was saying

was, we don't overthrow democracies

:

01:51:42,309 --> 01:51:45,349

until there's a human rights

issue is what he was saying.

:

01:51:45,898 --> 01:51:50,879

And if you were cynical, you could

think to yourself, well, let's

:

01:51:50,879 --> 01:51:55,459

create a human rights issue and

nobody will know who's responsible.

:

01:51:55,784 --> 01:51:57,064

And that gives us the green line.

:

01:51:57,834 --> 01:52:01,054

That's, that's where, you know,

you can disagree with me as

:

01:52:01,054 --> 01:52:02,654

you obviously do, but that's a

:

01:52:02,654 --> 01:52:06,384

Joe: theory that, that But if you've

spent five billion and the Russians have

:

01:52:06,384 --> 01:52:12,804

spent 50 billion, um, you know, how, how

effective is the American propaganda?

:

01:52:13,164 --> 01:52:14,124

It's a drop in the ocean.

:

01:52:15,454 --> 01:52:20,644

So don't forget half of Ukraine is

within range of Russia's TV transmitters.

:

01:52:20,804 --> 01:52:21,304

Trevor (3): Yes.

:

01:52:21,424 --> 01:52:25,594

Joe: And we know that the Russian

TV transmitters are not unbiased.

:

01:52:25,724 --> 01:52:26,054

Trevor (3): Yes.

:

01:52:26,644 --> 01:52:32,004

Joe: So, at least half of Ukraine

is getting biased propaganda from

:

01:52:32,004 --> 01:52:33,844

the Russian Ministry of Propaganda.

:

01:52:34,884 --> 01:52:35,414

Trevor: I'm not

:

01:52:35,443 --> 01:52:38,534

Joe: So, so maybe the Americans

were funding just purely

:

01:52:38,534 --> 01:52:39,603

independent journalism.

:

01:52:40,193 --> 01:52:42,304

Trevor: Uh, maybe, Joe.

:

01:52:44,023 --> 01:52:46,644

Joe: Oh, and this, this

is the problem with this.

:

01:52:47,289 --> 01:52:51,049

Trevor: Well, the problem is you put

up both theories and then people saying

:

01:52:51,159 --> 01:52:57,779

which one sounds more plausible to them,

so, because we can never prove beyond.

:

01:52:57,978 --> 01:53:00,969

Joe: No, and, and, and this

is the whole point of FSB

:

01:53:00,989 --> 01:53:03,139

disinformation is to muddy the water.

:

01:53:03,739 --> 01:53:04,909

So you're never quite sure.

:

01:53:05,209 --> 01:53:06,519

Trevor: But any disinformation,

:

01:53:06,978 --> 01:53:07,859

Joe: on both sides.

:

01:53:08,059 --> 01:53:11,489

Trevor: So one, that's one side

I've put forward, and thank you.

:

01:53:11,829 --> 01:53:13,639

You put forward the other side that says,

:

01:53:13,648 --> 01:53:15,879

Trevor (2): actually, no, it's

the, you know, the other side.

:

01:53:16,249 --> 01:53:21,029

Joe: Because, because the FSB we know is

great at running disinformation programs.

:

01:53:21,789 --> 01:53:24,978

And unlike the Americans, they're

not looking for an instant payoff.

:

01:53:24,989 --> 01:53:25,824

They will.

:

01:53:25,824 --> 01:53:28,174

do things that take a long time to mature.

:

01:53:28,184 --> 01:53:34,794

This has always been the KGB back in the

cold war would train up people who were

:

01:53:35,134 --> 01:53:40,044

raw recruits in the hopes that in 20

years time they would be in a position

:

01:53:40,044 --> 01:53:42,714

of power and would be of use to the KGB.

:

01:53:44,034 --> 01:53:47,054

Trevor: Uh, I think the track

record of the Americans on this

:

01:53:47,054 --> 01:53:48,164

sort of thing is pretty good.

:

01:53:48,394 --> 01:53:53,574

So I wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't

put them as the underdogs when

:

01:53:53,574 --> 01:53:55,103

it comes down to a propaganda

:

01:53:55,324 --> 01:53:55,353

Joe: war.

:

01:53:55,624 --> 01:53:57,924

But again, the whole

colour revolution thing.

:

01:53:58,244 --> 01:54:03,904

Uh, there is a known playbook that was

written by some pacifist who was saying

:

01:54:03,904 --> 01:54:08,853

how great color revolutions were and why

America shouldn't be doing, uh, getting

:

01:54:08,853 --> 01:54:13,374

involved in wars that in fact they

should be doing these color revolutions.

:

01:54:13,484 --> 01:54:18,084

And Putin followed the playbook

and it didn't work, which is

:

01:54:18,094 --> 01:54:20,124

why he had to invade in:

:

01:54:21,929 --> 01:54:27,978

Trevor: So, let me, um, Jeffrey Sachs,

because I've talked about him a lot,

:

01:54:29,279 --> 01:54:32,509

and you're going to give some contrary

stuff on him, which will be good.

:

01:54:32,919 --> 01:54:39,259

So he was invited to speak to the

European Parliament, um, recently.

:

01:54:39,389 --> 01:54:43,549

So I've got a transcript

of what he had to say.

:

01:54:43,739 --> 01:54:49,449

So I'll just start with the first

part of some of his qualifications.

:

01:54:51,129 --> 01:54:55,318

Uh, in it he says, I've watched the events

very close up in Eastern Europe, the

:

01:54:55,318 --> 01:54:59,478

former Soviet Union, Russia and Ukraine

very closely for the last 36 years.

:

01:55:00,068 --> 01:55:05,339

I was an advisor to the Polish government

in:

:

01:55:05,339 --> 01:55:11,169

team in:

Yeltsin's economic team in 91 to 93.

:

01:55:11,559 --> 01:55:16,318

and President Kuchma's economic

team in Ukraine, 93 to 94.

:

01:55:16,969 --> 01:55:19,139

I helped introduce the Estonian currency.

:

01:55:19,179 --> 01:55:22,529

I helped several countries in former

Yugoslavia, especially Slovenia.

:

01:55:23,129 --> 01:55:26,929

After the Madan, I was asked by the

new government in Ukraine to come to

:

01:55:26,929 --> 01:55:32,169

Kiev, and I was taken around the Madan

and learned a lot of things firsthand.

:

01:55:32,879 --> 01:55:35,599

I've been in touch with Russian

leaders for more than 30 years.

:

01:55:35,599 --> 01:55:38,099

I also know the American

political leadership close up.

:

01:55:38,614 --> 01:55:43,254

Our previous Secretary of Treasury,

Janet Yellen, was my wonderful

:

01:55:43,284 --> 01:55:48,234

microeconomics teacher 52 years ago, and

we've been friends for a half century.

:

01:55:48,764 --> 01:55:53,374

I know these people, I say this because

I want to explain, in my point of view,

:

01:55:53,404 --> 01:55:57,704

it's not second hand, it's not ideology,

it's what I've seen with my own eyes

:

01:55:57,734 --> 01:55:59,824

and experienced during this period.

:

01:56:00,773 --> 01:56:01,384

So, Jo.

:

01:56:03,004 --> 01:56:05,414

Any reflections on So

:

01:56:05,704 --> 01:56:08,734

Joe: he fucked over the Russians

by helping them screw up their

:

01:56:08,734 --> 01:56:10,804

economy and introduce an oligarchy.

:

01:56:11,603 --> 01:56:13,094

Uh, the same Is that what he

:

01:56:13,094 --> 01:56:13,804

Trevor: recommended?

:

01:56:14,539 --> 01:56:17,879

Joe: I don't know, but

he was going on about how

:

01:56:17,879 --> 01:56:18,869

Trevor: he advised them.

:

01:56:19,009 --> 01:56:21,779

Yeah, but you don't know what he, you

don't know what, you don't know Joe what

:

01:56:21,779 --> 01:56:23,469

his advice was and whether it was taken.

:

01:56:23,978 --> 01:56:27,109

Joe: Well then what's his use

if his advice wasn't taken?

:

01:56:27,148 --> 01:56:28,559

Why did they keep inviting him?

:

01:56:30,829 --> 01:56:31,259

Trevor: But Joe,

:

01:56:33,329 --> 01:56:36,529

if you don't know what his advice was,

like they might have dismissed his advice

:

01:56:36,529 --> 01:56:39,379

or they might have been able to take

his advice for other reasons, like they

:

01:56:39,379 --> 01:56:42,059

might have said Don't do these things

because you're going to get screwed.

:

01:56:42,099 --> 01:56:48,049

We don't, I haven't gone into what

his advice was, but, but he's a

:

01:56:48,049 --> 01:56:51,019

guy who's on those credentials.

:

01:56:51,398 --> 01:56:51,639

Joe: Yeah.

:

01:56:51,639 --> 01:56:54,659

So he's deep into the

economics of these countries.

:

01:56:54,689 --> 01:56:55,648

I, yeah.

:

01:56:55,779 --> 01:57:02,169

Trevor: And not just Russia, but,

um, Poland, Ukraine, Slovenia, like.

:

01:57:02,964 --> 01:57:07,464

Um, invited by the new

government in Kiev to come in.

:

01:57:07,484 --> 01:57:13,124

So, um, you were saying earlier that he

was like a Russian stooge or something.

:

01:57:13,154 --> 01:57:13,304

Well,

:

01:57:14,244 --> 01:57:18,134

Joe: yeah, I mean, he's obviously,

he's got Russian talking points.

:

01:57:18,344 --> 01:57:22,794

Trevor: Yeah, but, you know, if

the Ukrainians thought that, would

:

01:57:22,984 --> 01:57:24,739

they invite him in at that point?

:

01:57:24,739 --> 01:57:26,074

Well, maybe they didn't know at the time.

:

01:57:27,523 --> 01:57:29,523

He's got a reputation of 30 years.

:

01:57:29,859 --> 01:57:35,359

Yeah, he's a, he's such a well known

operator in this field, they weren't like

:

01:57:35,359 --> 01:57:38,541

who the fuck's Jeffrey Sachs, they invited

him in because they knew who he was.

:

01:57:38,541 --> 01:57:41,389

Joe: And okay, he's, he's an expert

in money, but that doesn't mean

:

01:57:41,398 --> 01:57:42,978

he's an expert in revolution.

:

01:57:44,299 --> 01:57:44,889

Trevor: Yes,

:

01:57:45,279 --> 01:57:46,349

Joe: but, okay.

:

01:57:46,829 --> 01:57:52,079

Trevor: But, it does mean, I think,

that he's a guy with credentials that

:

01:57:52,079 --> 01:57:55,009

he has been, um, In the place, yeah.

:

01:57:55,009 --> 01:57:56,679

In the place and seen this.

:

01:57:56,839 --> 01:57:58,299

But I thought you were going to

say something about him being

:

01:57:58,299 --> 01:57:59,549

a Russian stooge or something.

:

01:57:59,969 --> 01:58:00,949

Joe: Oh no, no, no, sorry.

:

01:58:00,949 --> 01:58:04,129

I, he, other than him repeating

Russian talking points.

:

01:58:04,329 --> 01:58:04,859

Right.

:

01:58:05,089 --> 01:58:06,969

He may be just what they

call a useful idiot.

:

01:58:07,839 --> 01:58:07,898

Trevor: Right.

:

01:58:08,068 --> 01:58:08,459

Okay.

:

01:58:08,659 --> 01:58:12,089

Joe: No, no, I, I, I've got no evidence

that he's been paid off by the Russians.

:

01:58:12,159 --> 01:58:12,659

Ah, right.

:

01:58:12,699 --> 01:58:12,879

Okay.

:

01:58:13,009 --> 01:58:13,109

Then

:

01:58:13,109 --> 01:58:14,559

Trevor: nothing sort of

sinister in any sense.

:

01:58:14,579 --> 01:58:14,799

No.

:

01:58:14,889 --> 01:58:15,228

Like that.

:

01:58:15,249 --> 01:58:15,349

Right.

:

01:58:15,699 --> 01:58:15,989

All right.

:

01:58:16,329 --> 01:58:16,519

So.

:

01:58:17,244 --> 01:58:25,164

That's his, um, uh, that's what I

think are reasonable credentials

:

01:58:25,174 --> 01:58:27,044

for somebody to commentate on what's

:

01:58:27,044 --> 01:58:27,853

Trevor (2): going on here.

:

01:58:28,494 --> 01:58:32,364

I'll go on and stop me at any

point if you want to, Joe, but,

:

01:58:33,424 --> 01:58:35,544

Trevor: um, but I'll just go

on with some of the things that

:

01:58:35,544 --> 01:58:37,693

he, how he outlines things.

:

01:58:39,103 --> 01:58:44,734

Because I say all this and, um, John

says he's got a bridge to sell me.

:

01:58:45,204 --> 01:58:46,564

So, um.

:

01:58:47,728 --> 01:58:49,269

Okay, this is from his speech.

:

01:58:49,579 --> 01:58:54,349

The United States came to The View,

especially during:

:

01:58:54,349 --> 01:58:55,818

the end of the Soviet Union, that the U.

:

01:58:55,818 --> 01:58:55,969

S.

:

01:58:55,969 --> 01:58:57,509

now runs the world, and that the U.

:

01:58:57,509 --> 01:58:57,609

S.

:

01:58:57,609 --> 01:59:02,179

does not have to heed anybody's views,

red lines, concerns, security viewpoints,

:

01:59:02,659 --> 01:59:04,699

international obligations, or any U.

:

01:59:04,699 --> 01:59:04,839

N.

:

01:59:04,839 --> 01:59:05,449

framework.

:

01:59:06,919 --> 01:59:11,219

When the Soviet Union ended in 91,

The View became even more exaggerated,

:

01:59:11,329 --> 01:59:15,749

and I can name chapter and verse,

but The View was, we, the U.

:

01:59:15,749 --> 01:59:15,949

S.,

:

01:59:15,949 --> 01:59:16,559

run the show.

:

01:59:17,124 --> 01:59:20,174

Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz and many

other names you would have come to

:

01:59:20,174 --> 01:59:23,174

know literally believe this is now a U.

:

01:59:23,174 --> 01:59:23,374

S.

:

01:59:23,374 --> 01:59:25,594

world and we will do as we want.

:

01:59:27,244 --> 01:59:33,134

Incidentally, Joe, um, you mentioned he

knows economics, but, um, it should come

:

01:59:33,134 --> 01:59:38,404

through in this, but he, he deals with a

lot of military and foreign policy people

:

01:59:38,424 --> 01:59:40,894

that he has very good contacts with, so.

:

01:59:42,139 --> 01:59:47,459

It is beyond just the economics, but

anyway, what happened after 91 is that

:

01:59:47,459 --> 01:59:52,019

the United States decided that unipolarity

meant that NATO would enlarge somewhere

:

01:59:52,029 --> 01:59:54,898

from Brussels to Vladivostok step by step.

:

01:59:56,169 --> 02:00:02,139

You will recall February 7th,

:

:

02:00:02,139 --> 02:00:05,379

James Baker spoke with Gorbachev.

:

02:00:05,959 --> 02:00:09,029

Genscher gave a press conference

afterwards where he explained

:

02:00:09,029 --> 02:00:10,819

that NATO will not move eastward.

:

02:00:12,219 --> 02:00:15,929

And understanding was reached that

NATO will not move one inch eastward.

:

02:00:16,439 --> 02:00:19,979

This was an agreement,

albeit verbal, and it was ex

:

02:00:20,209 --> 02:00:23,949

Joe: But apparently it was

extended by James Baker.

:

02:00:25,349 --> 02:00:25,869

Right.

:

02:00:26,629 --> 02:00:29,589

But as soon as that, as soon

as the president heard, he

:

02:00:29,589 --> 02:00:31,219

said, no, that's not true.

:

02:00:31,739 --> 02:00:33,979

Um, basically revoke that.

:

02:00:36,379 --> 02:00:37,819

So he revoke it?

:

02:00:38,519 --> 02:00:41,489

Well, he said, you've made that

offer, take that offer back.

:

02:00:41,669 --> 02:00:44,014

It's basically, that's Not on the cards.

:

02:00:44,014 --> 02:00:44,654

Was that

:

02:00:44,654 --> 02:00:46,704

Trevor: ever communicated to the Russians?

:

02:00:47,494 --> 02:00:53,014

Joe: Uh, apparently, no, because,

hang on, Gorbachev, Gorbachev was

:

02:00:53,014 --> 02:00:54,347

under the impression that it was.

:

02:00:54,347 --> 02:00:54,504

That

:

02:00:55,984 --> 02:00:56,704

x: it was revoked.

:

02:00:57,244 --> 02:00:57,974

Joe: No, no, no, no.

:

02:00:58,274 --> 02:01:02,024

Apparently Gorbachev went off

believing it was, uh, on the cards, but

:

02:01:02,384 --> 02:01:04,634

apparently they had said, no, it's not.

:

02:01:05,284 --> 02:01:05,544

Trevor: Well.

:

02:01:05,554 --> 02:01:07,204

So there was some confusion about it.

:

02:01:07,324 --> 02:01:12,664

In this article, well, in his

speech, Sachs says, it was explicit

:

02:01:12,724 --> 02:01:14,294

and is in countless documents.

:

02:01:14,729 --> 02:01:17,919

Just look up National Security Archive

of George Washington University and

:

02:01:17,919 --> 02:01:19,569

you can get dozens of documents.

:

02:01:19,879 --> 02:01:23,279

It's a website called, What

Gorbachev Heard About NATO?

:

02:01:23,569 --> 02:01:26,839

Take a look, please, because

everything you're told by the U.

:

02:01:26,839 --> 02:01:26,929

S.

:

02:01:26,929 --> 02:01:28,369

about this promise is a lie.

:

02:01:28,669 --> 02:01:30,599

But the archives are perfectly clear.

:

02:01:30,929 --> 02:01:33,149

Many of the documents are here and here.

:

02:01:33,219 --> 02:01:34,039

So he's got links for those.

:

02:01:35,744 --> 02:01:38,274

Patrons who get the show notes,

you can click on the links.

:

02:01:38,824 --> 02:01:41,054

If you're not a patron,

maybe you should become one.

:

02:01:41,284 --> 02:01:41,664

Anyway.

:

02:01:43,424 --> 02:01:47,444

So the decision was taken by Clinton in

94 to expand NATO all the way to Ukraine.

:

02:01:47,534 --> 02:01:49,444

This is a long term US project.

:

02:01:50,189 --> 02:01:53,239

It's not due to one administration

or another, this is a U.

:

02:01:53,239 --> 02:01:53,389

S.

:

02:01:53,389 --> 02:01:56,369

government project that

started more than 30 years ago.

:

02:01:58,079 --> 02:02:02,479

A 30 year project, Ukraine and

Georgia were the keys to the project.

:

02:02:02,589 --> 02:02:03,169

Why?

:

02:02:04,019 --> 02:02:07,339

You surround Russia in the Black

Sea and you deny Russia access

:

02:02:07,339 --> 02:02:08,979

to the eastern Mediterranean.

:

02:02:08,989 --> 02:02:10,109

The U.

:

02:02:10,109 --> 02:02:10,319

S.

:

02:02:10,319 --> 02:02:14,199

idea was that there would be

Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria,

:

02:02:14,199 --> 02:02:16,379

Turkey and Georgia, all in NATO.

:

02:02:17,009 --> 02:02:19,379

That would deprive Russia

of any international status.

:

02:02:19,919 --> 02:02:23,459

By blocking the Black Sea and

essentially neutralising Russia

:

02:02:23,859 --> 02:02:25,869

as little more than a local power.

:

02:02:26,529 --> 02:02:29,829

So, Joe, that would be, you know, you've

often said, well, what about Finland?

:

02:02:29,839 --> 02:02:33,059

Why aren't they, you know, and I

said, well, Finland's different.

:

02:02:33,489 --> 02:02:35,909

Joe: But all you need is

Turkey blocking the Bosphorus.

:

02:02:37,909 --> 02:02:43,749

Turkey controls the Bosphorus, and as

we found out in the First World War, if

:

02:02:43,979 --> 02:02:46,389

Turkey is against you, you're screwed.

:

02:02:47,249 --> 02:02:53,119

Trevor: Well from the Russian point of

view, losing, um, according to Sachs, it

:

02:02:53,119 --> 02:02:57,629

was the US idea that by getting Ukraine,

Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey and Georgia,

:

02:02:58,169 --> 02:02:59,869

then that would be crippling Russia.

:

02:03:01,989 --> 02:03:04,619

Anyway, um.

:

02:03:05,354 --> 02:03:09,604

Bombing Belgrade 78 days straight

in:

:

02:03:09,604 --> 02:03:12,304

We'll get on to, uh, that later.

:

02:03:13,074 --> 02:03:18,324

So, NATO enlargement started in 99 with

Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic.

:

02:03:18,524 --> 02:03:21,384

Russia was extremely unhappy

about it, but these were countries

:

02:03:21,384 --> 02:03:22,934

still far from Russia's border.

:

02:03:23,624 --> 02:03:25,664

Russia protested, but

of course to no avail.

:

02:03:27,454 --> 02:03:30,439

This is all of course still, uh,

Jeffrey Sachs speech to the EU.

:

02:03:31,139 --> 02:03:35,109

After 99, the next round of NATO

enlargement came in:

:

02:03:35,109 --> 02:03:39,309

more countries, the three Baltic states,

Romania, Bulgaria, Slovenia, and Slovakia.

:

02:03:39,789 --> 02:03:41,999

At this point, Russia was pretty upset.

:

02:03:42,579 --> 02:03:45,569

The second wave of NATO enlargement

was a complete violation of

:

02:03:45,569 --> 02:03:49,829

post war order agreed at the

time of German reunification.

:

02:03:50,779 --> 02:03:54,809

As everybody recalls, because we just

had the Munich Security Conference

:

02:03:54,829 --> 02:04:00,009

last week, Putin went to the Munich

Security Conference in:

:

02:04:00,349 --> 02:04:01,379

Enough is enough.

:

02:04:01,889 --> 02:04:02,829

Of course, the U.

:

02:04:02,829 --> 02:04:02,969

S.

:

02:04:02,969 --> 02:04:03,679

did not listen.

:

02:04:04,469 --> 02:04:07,479

By:

:

02:04:08,199 --> 02:04:13,849

Saakashvili in New York City when he

spoke at the Council on Foreign Relations.

:

02:04:14,959 --> 02:04:18,289

He told us that Georgia is in the heart

of Europe and as such would join NATO.

:

02:04:18,359 --> 02:04:21,029

I walked out and called my wife

and said, this man's crazy.

:

02:04:21,039 --> 02:04:22,229

He's going to blow up his country.

:

02:04:22,909 --> 02:04:25,209

A month later, war broke out

between Russia and Georgia,

:

02:04:25,239 --> 02:04:26,689

in which Georgia was defeated.

:

02:04:28,449 --> 02:04:32,629

In:

our former CIA director, William

:

02:04:32,629 --> 02:04:33,879

Burns, who at the time was a U.

:

02:04:33,879 --> 02:04:34,119

S.

:

02:04:34,289 --> 02:04:38,149

ambassador to Russia, sent a long

diplomatic cable back to Secretary of

:

02:04:38,149 --> 02:04:43,259

State Condoleezza Rice, which famously

entitled, was entitled, Niet means Niet.

:

02:04:44,569 --> 02:04:48,129

The message was that NATO enlargement

was opposed by the entire Russian

:

02:04:48,129 --> 02:04:50,849

political class, not just President Putin.

:

02:04:52,329 --> 02:04:54,929

We know about the cable

from Julian Assange.

:

02:04:55,959 --> 02:04:58,729

Believe me, not one word is

told to the American people.

:

02:04:59,209 --> 02:05:03,329

Um, uh, we have Julian

Assange to thank for the memo.

:

02:05:05,034 --> 02:05:08,434

As you know, Yankevich was elected

as a president in:

:

02:05:08,434 --> 02:05:10,544

platform of Ukraine's neutrality.

:

02:05:10,954 --> 02:05:15,634

Russia had no territorial interests

or designs in Ukraine at all.

:

02:05:16,024 --> 02:05:16,914

I know, I was He

:

02:05:16,914 --> 02:05:20,674

Joe: was elected on the grounds

that he was going to integrate with

:

02:05:20,674 --> 02:05:29,014

Europe because The, um, Ukrainians

had seen how successful Poland was

:

02:05:29,014 --> 02:05:30,724

in integrating with Europe mm-hmm.

:

02:05:30,724 --> 02:05:35,374

And how Poland's economy was now

much larger than Ukraine's, and they

:

02:05:35,374 --> 02:05:37,084

wanted a, a slice of that action.

:

02:05:38,504 --> 02:05:39,404

Trevor: So, okay.

:

02:05:39,494 --> 02:05:42,134

I'll get onto more of Yakovich later.

:

02:05:42,344 --> 02:05:43,569

Yakovich Yakovich.

:

02:05:43,634 --> 02:05:43,964

Thanks.

:

02:05:44,024 --> 02:05:44,234

Yeah.

:

02:05:44,474 --> 02:05:50,184

Um, um, he says, oh no, I was there

on and off during these years.

:

02:05:50,244 --> 02:05:53,574

What Russia was negotiating

in:

:

02:05:53,624 --> 02:05:58,154

to:

:

02:05:58,224 --> 02:05:58,744

That's it.

:

02:05:59,254 --> 02:06:01,804

There were no Russian demands

for Crimea or for the Donbass,

:

02:06:01,844 --> 02:06:02,854

nothing like that at all.

:

02:06:03,054 --> 02:06:03,364

But as soon as

:

02:06:03,364 --> 02:06:09,964

Joe: Sevastopol was part of, was

a Russian lease, then Ukrainian

:

02:06:09,964 --> 02:06:13,924

territory wasn't, um, a sovereign.

:

02:06:15,404 --> 02:06:17,254

So it couldn't have joined NATO.

:

02:06:19,254 --> 02:06:24,004

Trevor: Uh, NATO doesn't allow people to

join if they've leased out a naval base.

:

02:06:26,174 --> 02:06:29,514

Joe: So you have to have territorial

integrity before you can join NATO.

:

02:06:30,074 --> 02:06:31,854

Trevor: So why were they

applying to join NATO?

:

02:06:32,574 --> 02:06:35,204

Joe: Um, because, well, they wanted to

:

02:06:35,284 --> 02:06:36,684

Trevor: Were they going

to renege on the lease?

:

02:06:37,789 --> 02:06:38,179

I don't know.

:

02:06:38,899 --> 02:06:42,729

Joe: So basically Europe, no it

wasn't Europe, it was the US.

:

02:06:43,059 --> 02:06:49,109

The US gave them a plan that said in

however many years, once you've done these

:

02:06:49,119 --> 02:06:55,409

things, you could be possibly allowed to

join NATO if every member country agrees

:

02:06:55,439 --> 02:06:56,949

and votes and says you're allowed in.

:

02:06:58,039 --> 02:06:59,324

Trevor: Did they actually sign the lease?

:

02:06:59,324 --> 02:07:05,274

Joe: Yeah, Yanukovych signed the

lease, and also, uh, Parliament

:

02:07:05,274 --> 02:07:08,654

passed a law that said the President

wasn't allowed to make any form of,

:

02:07:08,714 --> 02:07:11,674

um, alliance with any other country.

:

02:07:12,024 --> 02:07:15,314

Trevor: So the Russians must have been

worried that the lease would be cancelled

:

02:07:15,374 --> 02:07:18,904

if the Ukraine was going to join the NATO.

:

02:07:19,164 --> 02:07:21,204

Joe: I don't know why.

:

02:07:22,304 --> 02:07:25,394

When they were, as far as I

know, there was no talk about

:

02:07:25,394 --> 02:07:27,654

joining NATO until after:

:

02:07:29,654 --> 02:07:30,774

Trevor: So, I'll keep going.

:

02:07:31,644 --> 02:07:34,104

There were no Russian demands

for Crimea or for the Donbass,

:

02:07:34,124 --> 02:07:34,844

nothing like that at all.

:

02:07:34,844 --> 02:07:39,684

The idea that Putin is reconstructing the

Russian Empire is childish propaganda.

:

02:07:42,454 --> 02:07:45,234

Joe: Except that, um, Putin has said.

:

02:07:46,219 --> 02:07:52,229

That Belarus and the Ukrainian people

are all one people and that historically

:

02:07:52,519 --> 02:08:00,449

Peter the Great owned a huge area of land

and Medvedev, who was prime minister,

:

02:08:00,499 --> 02:08:05,319

sorry, was president whilst Putin was

prime minister, has said that Ukrainian

:

02:08:05,319 --> 02:08:09,239

is a made up thing, made up country,

it doesn't really exist, they're all

:

02:08:09,239 --> 02:08:13,619

one people, they're all Russians,

and you know, it's, it's all a farce.

:

02:08:14,089 --> 02:08:18,214

Trevor: Yeah, he also said Khrushchev

should never have given, um,

:

02:08:18,904 --> 02:08:20,794

Joe: Ukraine away in the way it

:

02:08:20,804 --> 02:08:21,144

Trevor: did.

:

02:08:22,294 --> 02:08:26,024

That didn't mean he was, but he was

also saying what's done is done.

:

02:08:26,024 --> 02:08:26,544

Who,

:

02:08:27,124 --> 02:08:27,914

Joe: Medvedev?

:

02:08:28,174 --> 02:08:28,974

Trevor: No, Putin.

:

02:08:29,364 --> 02:08:35,193

Joe: Yeah, yeah, but Medvedev, who's

also, uh, Putin's right hand man.

:

02:08:35,443 --> 02:08:39,704

Trevor: So in the same way that you could,

so they're talking historically, it should

:

02:08:39,704 --> 02:08:43,264

never have happened, but there was also an

acknowledgement of water under the bridge.

:

02:08:43,714 --> 02:08:44,818

That's what's done is done.

:

02:08:44,818 --> 02:08:44,980

But, but

:

02:08:44,985 --> 02:08:47,764

Joe: apparently Medvedev is

saying that Ukraine doesn't exist.

:

02:08:47,764 --> 02:08:48,844

It's, it's a non-entity.

:

02:08:48,844 --> 02:08:53,354

It's, and, and Ukrainian is

a bastard version of Russian.

:

02:08:53,354 --> 02:08:54,224

It's not real.

:

02:08:55,514 --> 02:08:58,574

So he's, he's basically

just denying them as a race.

:

02:08:59,134 --> 02:08:59,434

Trevor: Well,

:

02:08:59,464 --> 02:09:00,604

Joe: denying them as a people.

:

02:09:02,604 --> 02:09:06,294

It, it's not like it's, it's

fantasy to say that, but

:

02:09:06,624 --> 02:09:07,914

Trevor: that you can say that.

:

02:09:07,914 --> 02:09:12,764

But that's a, a different thing from,

from saying Putin was always going to take

:

02:09:12,764 --> 02:09:15,884

Ukraine back because he always thought

it was part of the motherland that.

:

02:09:16,459 --> 02:09:18,199

And he was determined to take it back.

:

02:09:18,769 --> 02:09:24,719

You can have those views, but still, Putin

can say, I should never have given that

:

02:09:24,719 --> 02:09:29,139

away, but it's gone and it's up water

on the bridge, and I can't get it back.

:

02:09:30,129 --> 02:09:31,159

Which is what he was saying.

:

02:09:31,699 --> 02:09:32,199

Joe: Right.

:

02:09:32,529 --> 02:09:34,959

Whilst all the people around him

were saying something different.

:

02:09:35,309 --> 02:09:38,929

Trevor: Well, what Putin says.

:

02:09:38,929 --> 02:09:40,709

We've got to deal with

what Putin's saying here.

:

02:09:41,094 --> 02:09:41,464

Right.

:

02:09:42,074 --> 02:09:42,324

So,

:

02:09:43,394 --> 02:09:43,854

Joe: um.

:

02:09:44,114 --> 02:09:46,344

I mean, Peyton has to look

respectable to the rest of the

:

02:09:46,344 --> 02:09:50,344

world, whereas his sidekicks can say

whatever for internal consumption.

:

02:09:50,344 --> 02:09:50,404

I

:

02:09:50,414 --> 02:09:51,974

Trevor: think it was pretty

realistic about that.

:

02:09:52,334 --> 02:09:57,494

So, anyway, you can have different

views on Peyton's motivation, but

:

02:09:57,494 --> 02:09:58,784

this is the Jeffrey Sachs view.

:

02:10:00,144 --> 02:10:03,914

Yet the United States decided that

Yankevich, uh, Yanukovych must be

:

02:10:03,914 --> 02:10:06,034

overthrown because he favored neutrality.

:

02:10:06,524 --> 02:10:08,184

and opposed NATO enlargement.

:

02:10:09,394 --> 02:10:11,374

Uh, it's called a regime change operation.

:

02:10:11,954 --> 02:10:17,154

Um, uh, According to Sachs, there

have been about 100 regime change

:

02:10:17,154 --> 02:10:19,494

operations by the US since:

:

02:10:21,144 --> 02:10:23,314

That's what the CIA does for a living.

:

02:10:24,394 --> 02:10:26,974

Please note, it's a very

unusual kind of foreign policy.

:

02:10:27,814 --> 02:10:30,604

In the American government, if you

don't like the other side, you don't

:

02:10:30,604 --> 02:10:33,764

negotiate with them, you try to

overthrow them, preferably covertly.

:

02:10:34,234 --> 02:10:36,374

If it doesn't work

covertly, you do it overtly.

:

02:10:37,834 --> 02:10:39,254

You always say, it's not our fault.

:

02:10:39,304 --> 02:10:40,193

They're the aggressor.

:

02:10:40,314 --> 02:10:41,164

They're the other side.

:

02:10:41,854 --> 02:10:47,894

Jo, you think their, uh,

success, uh, is not so great.

:

02:10:48,264 --> 02:10:48,934

Joe: Mm hmm.

:

02:10:49,714 --> 02:10:54,274

Trevor: Um, according to SACS,

in:

:

02:10:54,274 --> 02:10:56,044

to overthrow Yanukovych.

:

02:10:56,164 --> 02:10:59,524

Everybody knows the phone call

intercepted by my Columbia University

:

02:10:59,524 --> 02:11:04,254

colleague, Victoria Newland, and

the US ambassador, Jeffrey Hyatt.

:

02:11:05,834 --> 02:11:08,054

You don't get their

evidence, according to SACS.

:

02:11:08,814 --> 02:11:11,524

Uh, the Russians intercepted her

call, they put it on the internet.

:

02:11:12,474 --> 02:11:15,224

Um, um.

:

02:11:16,684 --> 02:11:19,974

When the Maidan occurred,

I was called soon after.

:

02:11:20,504 --> 02:11:24,314

Professor Sachs, the new Ukrainian

Prime Minister would like to see you

:

02:11:24,314 --> 02:11:26,104

to talk about the economic crisis.

:

02:11:26,614 --> 02:11:30,044

So I flew to Kiev, and I was

walked around the Maidan.

:

02:11:30,494 --> 02:11:32,134

And I was told how the U.

:

02:11:32,134 --> 02:11:32,284

S.

:

02:11:32,284 --> 02:11:34,984

paid the money for all the

people around the Maidan.

:

02:11:35,484 --> 02:11:38,474

The spontaneous revolution of dignity.

:

02:11:40,869 --> 02:11:46,009

So that's Sachs saying he's told

by the new government of how the U.

:

02:11:46,009 --> 02:11:46,159

S.

:

02:11:46,159 --> 02:11:47,979

paid for the money for the

people around the Madan.

:

02:11:48,749 --> 02:11:52,179

Anyway, um, Ladies and gentlemen, please.

:

02:11:52,189 --> 02:11:56,579

How did all those Ukrainian media outlets

suddenly appear at the time of the Madan?

:

02:11:56,729 --> 02:11:58,689

Where did all this organization come from?

:

02:11:59,099 --> 02:12:00,539

Where did all these buses come from?

:

02:12:00,549 --> 02:12:01,879

Where did all these people come from?

:

02:12:01,889 --> 02:12:02,529

Are you kidding?

:

02:12:03,079 --> 02:12:04,439

This is an organized effort.

:

02:12:04,509 --> 02:12:08,199

It's not a secret, except perhaps to

citizens of Europe and the United States.

:

02:12:08,719 --> 02:12:10,889

Everyone else understands

it quite clearly.

:

02:12:13,214 --> 02:12:16,874

Then after the coup came the Minsk

agreements, especially minced

:

02:12:17,084 --> 02:12:20,584

minced two in Minsk two agreement.

:

02:12:20,674 --> 02:12:23,989

Uh, it was endorsed by United States

Security Council through resolution 2,

:

02:12:23,989 --> 02:12:29,174

2 0 2, uh, yet the United States and

Ukraine decided it would not be enforced.

:

02:12:29,594 --> 02:12:34,244

Uh, Trump won the:

expanded armed shipments to Ukraine.

:

02:12:35,759 --> 02:12:40,179

There were many thousands of deaths in

the shelling by Ukraine in the Donbass.

:

02:12:40,929 --> 02:12:44,059

There was no implementation

of the Minsk 2 agreement.

:

02:12:44,949 --> 02:12:48,669

At the end of 21, Putin put on

the table a last effort to reach a

:

02:12:48,669 --> 02:12:52,818

modus operandi with the US in two

security agreement drafts, one with

:

02:12:52,818 --> 02:12:54,449

Europe, one with the United States.

:

02:12:55,339 --> 02:12:59,799

He put the Russia US draft agreement

,:

:

02:13:01,089 --> 02:13:07,624

According to Sex, he says, Following that,

I had an hour long call with National

:

02:13:07,624 --> 02:13:13,854

Security Advisor Jake Sullivan in the

White House, begging, Jake, avoid the war.

:

02:13:13,934 --> 02:13:15,234

You can avoid this war.

:

02:13:15,514 --> 02:13:20,014

All the US has to do is say,

NATO will not enlarge to Ukraine.

:

02:13:20,674 --> 02:13:25,914

And he said to me, oh, NATO's not going to

enlarge to Ukraine, don't worry about it.

:

02:13:26,314 --> 02:13:29,414

And I said, Jake, say it publicly.

:

02:13:29,894 --> 02:13:30,724

No, no, no, no.

:

02:13:30,904 --> 02:13:32,104

We can't say it publicly.

:

02:13:32,544 --> 02:13:35,584

I said, Jake, you're not going

to have a war over something

:

02:13:35,584 --> 02:13:36,824

that isn't going to happen.

:

02:13:37,334 --> 02:13:40,274

And he said, don't worry,

Jeff, there will be no war.

:

02:13:41,684 --> 02:13:45,234

So this is Sax talking with

National Security Advisor.

:

02:13:46,574 --> 02:13:49,394

He says, they're not very

bright people, I'm telling you.

:

02:13:49,714 --> 02:13:52,554

If I can give you my honest view,

they're not very bright people.

:

02:13:52,594 --> 02:13:53,604

They talk to themselves.

:

02:13:53,604 --> 02:13:54,644

They don't talk to anyone else.

:

02:13:55,074 --> 02:13:56,264

They play game theory.

:

02:13:56,754 --> 02:13:59,414

In non cooperative game theory

you don't talk to the other side,

:

02:13:59,414 --> 02:14:00,534

you just make your strategy.

:

02:14:00,794 --> 02:14:03,994

This is the essence of non

cooperative game theory.

:

02:14:04,084 --> 02:14:09,584

It's not negotiation theory, it's

not peacemaking theory, it goes on.

:

02:14:11,274 --> 02:14:16,214

Joe: So in terms of the Maidan, I just

read a book by an American journalist

:

02:14:16,214 --> 02:14:21,174

who speaks fluent Russian, lived in

Moscow, and was also at the Maidan,

:

02:14:21,204 --> 02:14:24,894

and he was talking to the people

who were on the ground, in Russian.

:

02:14:26,174 --> 02:14:28,954

Because he said, yeah,

these people are bilingual.

:

02:14:28,974 --> 02:14:32,464

And in fact, they looked at him as an

idiot because he only spoke Russian.

:

02:14:32,464 --> 02:14:33,554

He didn't speak both.

:

02:14:33,554 --> 02:14:38,044

And he said, these people

were pissed off because they

:

02:14:38,044 --> 02:14:39,594

wanted to be closer to Europe.

:

02:14:40,314 --> 02:14:45,004

And Putin was basically pissed

off that they were getting close

:

02:14:45,004 --> 02:14:49,124

to Europe and promised to cut

off the gas and withhold money.

:

02:14:49,124 --> 02:14:52,994

So Yanukovych was between

a rock and a hard place.

:

02:14:53,344 --> 02:14:56,404

His populace wanted him

to be close to Europe

:

02:14:57,024 --> 02:14:57,864

Trevor: and the

:

02:14:57,874 --> 02:15:03,304

Joe: Russians, and the Russians didn't,

the Russians wanted him, uh, in their

:

02:15:03,304 --> 02:15:10,614

pocket and also the populace were a

bit pissed off at the corruption of the

:

02:15:10,614 --> 02:15:12,594

whole of the government, not just him.

:

02:15:13,434 --> 02:15:15,294

So it was a popular uprising.

:

02:15:15,294 --> 02:15:17,314

It was a popular pissed off people.

:

02:15:18,584 --> 02:15:22,314

It wasn't just the Americans going,

Oh, look, there's 50, 000 people here.

:

02:15:22,314 --> 02:15:24,604

Let's give them 10

bucks each because yeah.

:

02:15:25,729 --> 02:15:30,229

Because that's half a million dollars,

that's not chump change, because

:

02:15:30,229 --> 02:15:33,079

you've got to get the money into the

country and be able to hand it out.

:

02:15:34,299 --> 02:15:40,009

So to suggest that the Americans, that

the people were only there because they

:

02:15:40,009 --> 02:15:46,484

were bribed by the Americans seems a

bit strange, a bit stretching credulity.

:

02:15:46,484 --> 02:15:53,164

And he's saying that basically,

uh, it was the heavy handed

:

02:15:53,524 --> 02:15:59,654

crackdown by the Burkhardt that

caused the toppling of the regime.

:

02:16:01,564 --> 02:16:06,954

It was, uh, a very scared security.

:

02:16:07,174 --> 02:16:08,744

Oh, in fact, it was a very scared.

:

02:16:10,984 --> 02:16:14,184

government that was

facing a popular uprising.

:

02:16:14,594 --> 02:16:17,684

It wasn't even a popular, it

wasn't an uprising at the time.

:

02:16:17,984 --> 02:16:19,504

It was just people pissed off.

:

02:16:20,484 --> 02:16:27,414

And don't forget this was hot on

the heels of Putin having a, um, a

:

02:16:28,234 --> 02:16:30,564

huge protest against him in:

:

02:16:31,594 --> 02:16:38,193

So:

the Russians, uh, and there was

:

02:16:38,193 --> 02:16:40,254

also evidence of ballot stuffing.

:

02:16:41,423 --> 02:16:45,734

There was a big Russian protest

because when Putin handed over power to

:

02:16:45,754 --> 02:16:47,974

Medvedev, it was seen as a step forward.

:

02:16:48,364 --> 02:16:51,234

And for him to take power back

from Medvedev, people were

:

02:16:51,234 --> 02:16:52,754

going, what the fuck is going on?

:

02:16:54,394 --> 02:16:58,904

So Putin was very worried

that the Maidan would spread.

:

02:16:59,548 --> 02:17:02,629

that this uprising against

oligarchy would spread to Russia.

:

02:17:03,469 --> 02:17:07,318

So it was nothing about, he was

scared of NATO, he was scared of

:

02:17:07,318 --> 02:17:08,789

a popular uprising against him.

:

02:17:10,388 --> 02:17:12,759

Trevor: So nothing to do

with being scared of NATO?

:

02:17:13,589 --> 02:17:14,829

Joe: Uh, no, because And were

:

02:17:14,898 --> 02:17:17,939

Trevor: concerned about

NATO entering Ukraine,

:

02:17:19,349 --> 02:17:20,129

Joe: being part of NATO?

:

02:17:20,129 --> 02:17:24,079

NATO couldn't be part of, well

Ukraine couldn't be part of NATO.

:

02:17:24,079 --> 02:17:24,519

Because

:

02:17:25,398 --> 02:17:26,058

Trevor (3): NATO's

:

02:17:26,079 --> 02:17:32,693

Joe: rules said, that because there were,

you know, territorial disputes and also

:

02:17:32,693 --> 02:17:37,773

Ukraine's parliament had passed a law

that said they couldn't join any alliance,

:

02:17:40,214 --> 02:17:43,164

so, you know, NATO was a done deal.

:

02:17:44,154 --> 02:17:48,443

Trevor: Uh, I, I didn't know that

the Ukrainian constitution had been

:

02:17:48,443 --> 02:17:50,374

changed to say they couldn't join NATO.

:

02:17:51,853 --> 02:17:54,334

Joe: Uh, it said they couldn't

join any form of alliance.

:

02:17:54,824 --> 02:17:55,744

Trevor: Um, because.

:

02:17:56,304 --> 02:17:58,074

Part of the demand has always been

:

02:17:58,454 --> 02:17:58,574

Joe: mm-hmm

:

02:17:58,814 --> 02:18:01,154

.

Trevor: That the constitution be changed to say that.

:

02:18:01,683 --> 02:18:03,744

So I've never heard, yeah.

:

02:18:03,744 --> 02:18:07,794

And, and I, that, that, that's already in

the constitution and I'm sure I would've,

:

02:18:10,284 --> 02:18:15,574

so Putin has always said, basically

for peace agreement, I'm gonna keep

:

02:18:15,574 --> 02:18:16,959

Craig era, I'm gonna keep Don Bass.

:

02:18:17,699 --> 02:18:18,419

And you must.

:

02:18:18,459 --> 02:18:18,589

You

:

02:18:18,589 --> 02:18:20,459

Joe: can only have 5, 000 troops.

:

02:18:20,459 --> 02:18:21,009

And you must have.

:

02:18:21,079 --> 02:18:24,419

And you can't have any troops

anywhere that might possibly

:

02:18:24,818 --> 02:18:26,929

maybe fire a missile at us.

:

02:18:28,068 --> 02:18:31,599

So it was basically, you have to

demilitarize half of Ukraine that's left.

:

02:18:31,859 --> 02:18:35,728

Trevor: The basics has been, I'll

keep Crimea, I'll keep the Donbass.

:

02:18:36,314 --> 02:18:38,974

and you'll never enter NATO.

:

02:18:41,094 --> 02:18:43,853

It's never been said that there's

already an existing clause in the

:

02:18:43,853 --> 02:18:45,904

constitution saying they can't join NATO.

:

02:18:47,124 --> 02:18:47,344

Joe: No.

:

02:18:47,784 --> 02:18:53,094

So I think it was, you have to, it

was the president couldn't basically,

:

02:18:53,144 --> 02:18:56,464

uh, join an alliance without it

being ratified by the parliament.

:

02:18:56,464 --> 02:18:57,484

Parliament passed this law.

:

02:18:57,974 --> 02:18:58,344

Trevor: Okay.

:

02:18:59,964 --> 02:19:01,472

Joe: So I presume it was, you

can't do this unilaterally.

:

02:19:01,472 --> 02:19:02,023

So just the president

:

02:19:02,023 --> 02:19:03,374

Trevor: unilaterally can't do it.

:

02:19:03,443 --> 02:19:03,784

Yeah.

:

02:19:04,214 --> 02:19:04,584

Okay.

:

02:19:04,624 --> 02:19:05,114

Well, that's.

:

02:19:06,339 --> 02:19:07,779

For whatever, for what that's worth.

:

02:19:08,419 --> 02:19:09,789

Joe: But, but again, until That means the

:

02:19:10,289 --> 02:19:11,279

Trevor: Parliament could at any time.

:

02:19:11,759 --> 02:19:15,429

Joe: Yes, but until the Russians

invaded, the majority of people in

:

02:19:15,429 --> 02:19:17,359

Ukraine didn't want to be part of NATO.

:

02:19:17,388 --> 02:19:18,789

They wanted to be part of the EU.

:

02:19:18,929 --> 02:19:23,909

Trevor: But when you say they couldn't

be part of NATO anyway, well they could,

:

02:19:23,909 --> 02:19:25,339

it just required Parliament to pass it.

:

02:19:25,349 --> 02:19:27,818

Yes, and the majority of

people didn't want it.

:

02:19:27,879 --> 02:19:29,529

So, so it was a possibility.

:

02:19:30,089 --> 02:19:32,369

Joe: Well, yes, it was a possibility.

:

02:19:32,529 --> 02:19:32,829

Yeah.

:

02:19:33,349 --> 02:19:35,439

Trevor: And it wasn't, it wasn't

something they couldn't do.

:

02:19:35,509 --> 02:19:37,339

They could if they changed the past law.

:

02:19:37,679 --> 02:19:40,929

Joe: Well, yes, but it

wasn't a unilateral thing.

:

02:19:40,929 --> 02:19:46,499

It wasn't a, and again, people talk

about NATO expansion as if NATO

:

02:19:46,949 --> 02:19:50,089

is suborning these countries and

saying, you must be part of NATO.

:

02:19:50,489 --> 02:19:55,579

These are independent countries that

choose to join and they have to have a

:

02:19:55,579 --> 02:19:57,469

reason that they want to choose to join.

:

02:19:58,369 --> 02:20:01,119

Finland and Sweden were

at neutral for so long.

:

02:20:02,244 --> 02:20:05,754

And suddenly they changed their

mind and I can't think why

:

02:20:05,754 --> 02:20:07,224

they'd want to change their mind.

:

02:20:08,924 --> 02:20:13,654

Um, Poland apparently blackmailed the U.

:

02:20:13,654 --> 02:20:14,034

S.

:

02:20:14,074 --> 02:20:15,354

into allowing them because the U.

:

02:20:15,354 --> 02:20:15,484

S.

:

02:20:15,494 --> 02:20:16,754

was against Poland joining.

:

02:20:17,114 --> 02:20:17,604

Trevor: Right.

:

02:20:18,284 --> 02:20:19,404

Joe: Poland literally

:

02:20:19,434 --> 02:20:20,054

Trevor: Had their blackmail.

:

02:20:21,054 --> 02:20:24,394

Joe: So, um, apparently they, I can't

remember what the first thing was,

:

02:20:24,414 --> 02:20:29,584

but eventually they went, because it

was Clinton in power, they started

:

02:20:29,584 --> 02:20:32,274

courting the Republicans and going, Hey.

:

02:20:32,659 --> 02:20:38,109

We'll support you, we'll give you

help, we'll allow you to see more.

:

02:20:38,449 --> 02:20:40,919

Trevor: And an internal regime

change operation in the U.

:

02:20:41,069 --> 02:20:41,329

S.

:

02:20:44,219 --> 02:20:47,279

Joe: So they were supporting

the opposition in the U.

:

02:20:47,279 --> 02:20:47,759

S.

:

02:20:48,219 --> 02:20:52,919

And so the Republicans introduced

a bill into Congress, uh,

:

02:20:53,019 --> 02:20:54,529

saying that they would allow.

:

02:20:55,814 --> 02:21:00,084

Poland, basically, or I think any

Eastern European country to join NATO.

:

02:21:00,084 --> 02:21:00,484

All

:

02:21:01,564 --> 02:21:03,954

Trevor: right, I've let you have

your pushback on that bit, Joe.

:

02:21:04,314 --> 02:21:04,804

Keep going.

:

02:21:05,234 --> 02:21:09,764

Joe: Uh, give me two, well, you carry

on, but I need to go for a second.

:

02:21:10,204 --> 02:21:12,014

Trevor: Well, I have to tell

you what, I'll, I'll just, I

:

02:21:12,014 --> 02:21:13,124

need a drink of water as well.

:

02:21:13,654 --> 02:21:14,354

Dear listener,

:

02:21:15,794 --> 02:21:17,194

Trevor (2): two minutes and we'll be back,

:

02:21:17,224 --> 02:21:18,714

Trevor: because I just got

to top up my water as well.

:

02:21:19,214 --> 02:21:20,324

Everyone can get a drink.

:

02:21:22,134 --> 02:21:24,734

Uh, you still there in

the chat room, Alex?

:

02:21:24,774 --> 02:21:28,614

Um, I'll go through some comments.

:

02:21:28,654 --> 02:21:29,954

Alex, it's been busy.

:

02:21:31,354 --> 02:21:32,814

Russia likes compromising people.

:

02:21:32,824 --> 02:21:34,874

USA likes replacing with U.

:

02:21:34,874 --> 02:21:35,004

S.

:

02:21:35,004 --> 02:21:38,434

friendly leaders, um,

:

02:21:40,454 --> 02:21:46,054

uh, earlier on essential Lord Don,

I think being offended is offensive.

:

02:21:46,864 --> 02:21:53,124

Um, Alex, we should be able to criticize

anyone doing ethnic cleansing, um,

:

02:21:55,614 --> 02:21:58,324

Alex, I saw an anti

genocide protest and it was.

:

02:21:59,424 --> 02:22:04,054

20 percent police by numbers, union

protest at the same site three weeks

:

02:22:04,094 --> 02:22:09,784

earlier and 10 times as many people

and had no police presence at any time.

:

02:22:11,804 --> 02:22:12,544

Um,

:

02:22:15,324 --> 02:22:19,524

Alex says that copper is getting demoted,

that was a reference to UK copper.

:

02:22:20,949 --> 02:22:22,139

Alex is still there.

:

02:22:22,469 --> 02:22:24,969

Essential Lord Don, present.

:

02:22:25,619 --> 02:22:26,029

Good.

:

02:22:26,339 --> 02:22:31,939

Um, Alex, damn I would love to find out

in a few years he wears dresses at home.

:

02:22:32,569 --> 02:22:33,289

That's about J.

:

02:22:33,289 --> 02:22:33,429

D.

:

02:22:33,429 --> 02:22:33,989

Vance.

:

02:22:34,779 --> 02:22:34,979

Yes.

:

02:22:36,459 --> 02:22:40,259

Um, Essential Lord Don, if we do

get into a conflict with the U.

:

02:22:40,259 --> 02:22:40,449

S.

:

02:22:40,449 --> 02:22:42,849

we have emus and

kangaroos as shock troops.

:

02:22:43,509 --> 02:22:44,909

Yanks won't know what hit them.

:

02:22:45,769 --> 02:22:47,199

Don't forget the drop bears.

:

02:22:47,389 --> 02:22:48,359

Essential Lord Don.

:

02:22:48,489 --> 02:22:52,499

Um, uh, there we go.

:

02:22:53,544 --> 02:22:57,094

Greg Luigi Blackshaw was

there at one point, Landon was

:

02:22:57,094 --> 02:22:59,024

there, buy more submarines.

:

02:23:01,144 --> 02:23:04,954

Um, there we go, alright, I

was just going through those.

:

02:23:05,944 --> 02:23:12,894

Joe, right, back to, um, back to

Jeffrey Sachs speech to the EU.

:

02:23:14,944 --> 02:23:16,574

Here's one you're going

to push back on as well.

:

02:23:17,254 --> 02:23:18,774

What was Putin's intention in the war?

:

02:23:18,804 --> 02:23:20,314

I can tell you what his intention was.

:

02:23:20,324 --> 02:23:23,244

It was to force Zelensky

to negotiate neutrality.

:

02:23:23,674 --> 02:23:26,954

This happened within days of

the start of the invasion.

:

02:23:27,564 --> 02:23:30,054

You should understand this basic point,

not the propaganda that's written

:

02:23:30,054 --> 02:23:33,694

about the invasion claiming that

Russia's aim was to conquer Ukraine

:

02:23:34,134 --> 02:23:36,154

with a few tens of thousands of troops.

:

02:23:36,714 --> 02:23:39,884

Come on ladies and gentlemen,

please understand something basic.

:

02:23:40,394 --> 02:23:44,354

The idea of Russia's invasion

was to keep NATO out of Ukraine.

:

02:23:45,054 --> 02:23:46,504

And what is NATO really?

:

02:23:46,804 --> 02:23:51,444

It is the US military with its missiles,

its CIA deployments and all the rest.

:

02:23:52,284 --> 02:23:54,324

Russia's goal was to keep the U.

:

02:23:54,324 --> 02:23:54,534

S.

:

02:23:54,564 --> 02:23:55,764

away from its border.

:

02:23:56,614 --> 02:23:57,214

Keep going.

:

02:23:57,664 --> 02:23:58,384

Oh, uh.

:

02:23:58,384 --> 02:24:01,184

You think he intended to

take over the whole country.

:

02:24:01,184 --> 02:24:11,284

Joe: So Putin had been told that the

Ukrainian people were enslaved by

:

02:24:11,324 --> 02:24:16,254

Kiev and were waiting for the Russian

liberators to come and they would be

:

02:24:16,254 --> 02:24:19,324

greeted with open arms as the liberators.

:

02:24:20,194 --> 02:24:21,964

He bought into the propaganda.

:

02:24:22,634 --> 02:24:23,284

You think Putin

:

02:24:23,284 --> 02:24:23,944

Trevor: believed all that?

:

02:24:24,359 --> 02:24:24,899

Joe: Yeah.

:

02:24:25,289 --> 02:24:29,069

Um, the, the problem with the

autocratic regime, the same

:

02:24:29,159 --> 02:24:30,639

happened with the Soviet Union.

:

02:24:30,979 --> 02:24:32,969

What drove the Soviet Union bankrupt?

:

02:24:33,239 --> 02:24:35,929

The Americans couldn't believe

that the Soviet Union would go

:

02:24:35,939 --> 02:24:40,159

bankrupt because they were seeing

the internal Politburo reports that

:

02:24:40,159 --> 02:24:43,839

were saying how great the Russian,

well, the, the Soviet economy was.

:

02:24:44,504 --> 02:24:50,634

The problem was, it was such a regime

of fear that people were lying, so,

:

02:24:50,704 --> 02:24:52,434

and the lies were going to the top.

:

02:24:53,094 --> 02:24:55,164

And this is the same with Putin's Russia.

:

02:24:56,074 --> 02:24:59,954

The problem was the military had

been hollowed out, but nobody wanted

:

02:24:59,954 --> 02:25:05,544

to admit to stealing, you know,

billions, uh, out of the maintenance

:

02:25:05,584 --> 02:25:07,844

budgets for all the equipment.

:

02:25:08,874 --> 02:25:11,954

Uh, and so they reported that

everything was working beautifully.

:

02:25:12,814 --> 02:25:14,724

And that's what went up to the top.

:

02:25:14,904 --> 02:25:20,914

Putin is hiding in his, um,

uh, mansion outside of Moscow.

:

02:25:20,924 --> 02:25:22,894

He's not on the ground inspecting troops.

:

02:25:22,894 --> 02:25:24,584

He's not seeing what's really happening.

:

02:25:25,124 --> 02:25:26,744

He's believing what he's told.

:

02:25:27,164 --> 02:25:30,114

And he has such a culture

of fear around him.

:

02:25:30,579 --> 02:25:32,169

that only yes men survive.

:

02:25:32,599 --> 02:25:33,999

So he's hearing what he wants to hear.

:

02:25:34,729 --> 02:25:39,589

And so he, he was told that when

he went into Ukraine, they would be

:

02:25:39,589 --> 02:25:44,239

cheering the Russian troops and was

very shocked to find out that they

:

02:25:44,239 --> 02:25:45,739

fought him every step of the way.

:

02:25:46,499 --> 02:25:47,719

You know, they're one people.

:

02:25:48,359 --> 02:25:51,029

They're all the, you know, the Russians.

:

02:25:51,479 --> 02:25:58,319

Well, the Kiev Rus, uh, you know, it's,

it's, yeah, they're all one people.

:

02:25:58,349 --> 02:26:04,709

And, and he, again, uh, the, the

journalist I was reading said that

:

02:26:04,719 --> 02:26:12,279

historically before the war, um, the

Ukrainians said the Russians are our

:

02:26:12,279 --> 02:26:14,619

brothers, but we are not Russian.

:

02:26:15,389 --> 02:26:19,639

They saw themselves as an independent

people that had very close ties.

:

02:26:21,134 --> 02:26:26,644

Um, and I think that has changed the,

the Donbass has changed all that the

:

02:26:26,654 --> 02:26:33,034

taking of Crimea changed all that,

that the, the, the, um, Ukrainians,

:

02:26:33,734 --> 02:26:38,504

they still love the Russians, but they

don't like the regime in, in Moscow.

:

02:26:40,384 --> 02:26:41,294

And so.

:

02:26:42,099 --> 02:26:44,969

When the Russians came, they

weren't going, you're liberating

:

02:26:44,969 --> 02:26:46,399

us, you're oppressing us.

:

02:26:46,809 --> 02:26:50,659

We don't want to be part

of, um, Moscow's oligarchy.

:

02:26:52,609 --> 02:26:54,349

You know, we want to be closer to Europe.

:

02:26:54,389 --> 02:26:55,899

Europe is a much better economy.

:

02:26:55,899 --> 02:26:59,739

Europe is a much better,

uh, trading partner for us.

:

02:27:00,559 --> 02:27:03,029

Trevor: So Putin swallowed

his own propaganda.

:

02:27:03,364 --> 02:27:06,664

Joe: Yeah, which is why when they

invaded, they did want to take Ukraine.

:

02:27:06,674 --> 02:27:09,674

They thought that they

would win it in days.

:

02:27:10,254 --> 02:27:13,264

They thought that the

Ukrainian army was a rabble.

:

02:27:14,104 --> 02:27:16,134

And to be fair, the rest

of the world did as well.

:

02:27:17,084 --> 02:27:22,974

Honestly, the reason why there weren't,

um, Western weapons in Ukraine was

:

02:27:22,974 --> 02:27:26,464

because everybody thought that the

second most powerful army in the

:

02:27:26,464 --> 02:27:28,774

world would take Ukraine within days.

:

02:27:29,859 --> 02:27:32,769

Trevor: So how do we know what was

in Putin's mind to back this up?

:

02:27:32,829 --> 02:27:41,739

Joe: Well, we're guessing, but we

do know that, um, the, the, the

:

02:27:41,739 --> 02:27:46,269

populist media at the time was that

the Ukrainians were just waiting

:

02:27:46,269 --> 02:27:49,429

to be liberated from the neo Nazis.

:

02:27:51,069 --> 02:27:52,419

Trevor: Uh, next part's good.

:

02:27:52,659 --> 02:27:56,509

When Zelensky said in a few days,

when Zelensky said a few days

:

02:27:56,509 --> 02:28:00,509

after Russia's invasion, that

Ukraine was ready for neutrality,

:

02:28:00,869 --> 02:28:02,429

a peace agreement was in reach.

:

02:28:03,029 --> 02:28:06,999

I know the details of this because I

talked to key negotiators and mediators

:

02:28:07,029 --> 02:28:10,799

in detail and have learned much

from public announcements of others.

:

02:28:11,389 --> 02:28:16,869

Shortly after the start of negotiations,

in March:

:

02:28:16,869 --> 02:28:19,939

exchanged between the parties

that President Putin had approved

:

02:28:20,349 --> 02:28:22,079

and that Lavrov had presented.

:

02:28:23,589 --> 02:28:26,019

That was being managed

by the Turkish mediators.

:

02:28:26,579 --> 02:28:31,369

I flew to Ankara in the spring of

:

:

02:28:31,389 --> 02:28:32,799

what happened at that mediation.

:

02:28:33,424 --> 02:28:39,514

The bottom line is this, Ukraine walked

away unilaterally from a near agreement.

:

02:28:40,489 --> 02:28:42,259

Why did Ukraine walk away?

:

02:28:42,989 --> 02:28:46,849

Because the United States told

them to, and because the UK added

:

02:28:46,869 --> 02:28:53,209

icing to the cake by having Boris

Johnson go to Kiev in early April.

:

02:28:53,734 --> 02:28:55,594

to Ukraine to make the same point?

:

02:28:57,234 --> 02:29:02,654

Joe: Or it was because Ukraine

had managed to hold off.

:

02:29:03,074 --> 02:29:07,484

Kiev wasn't captured or Kiev

wasn't captured and they went,

:

02:29:08,264 --> 02:29:10,054

why should we negotiate now?

:

02:29:10,084 --> 02:29:14,174

You know, we were in a position

where we were trying to eke out

:

02:29:14,174 --> 02:29:17,294

the best deal we could because we

thought we were facing an army that

:

02:29:17,294 --> 02:29:20,874

we couldn't take on and we discovered

that it was a paper tiger we were

:

02:29:22,874 --> 02:29:26,744

Why would you negotiate a surrender

if you think you're going to win?

:

02:29:28,744 --> 02:29:34,159

Trevor: So the The point

of this is, that, um,

:

02:29:36,169 --> 02:29:42,199

that Sachs is saying, from talking

with the negotiators, the reason

:

02:29:42,199 --> 02:29:46,799

Ukraine walked away, was they were

told by the Americans to walk away.

:

02:29:46,800 --> 02:29:48,809

Well,

:

02:29:50,169 --> 02:29:54,699

Joe: he's talked to the negotiators and

they've said that, because apparently,

:

02:29:55,139 --> 02:29:59,099

Uh, Boris Johnson has denied it, and other

people who were there have denied it.

:

02:30:00,829 --> 02:30:04,279

Trevor: Yeah, so, there's your,

you can make your choice, dear

:

02:30:04,299 --> 02:30:08,399

listener, as to believing Jeffrey

Sachs representation of what the

:

02:30:08,399 --> 02:30:11,239

negotiators said, or Boris Johnson.

:

02:30:13,239 --> 02:30:17,579

Joe: Well, uh, he said that the

negotiators, no, the negotiators

:

02:30:17,589 --> 02:30:20,859

had agreed, uh, a proposal.

:

02:30:21,829 --> 02:30:25,579

I don't know that he's saying

that the negotiators have said

:

02:30:25,959 --> 02:30:27,579

that they were told to walk away.

:

02:30:28,429 --> 02:30:31,319

Or he's picked this up from

other places that the Ukrainians

:

02:30:31,329 --> 02:30:32,089

were told to walk away.

:

02:30:33,169 --> 02:30:39,229

Trevor: Well, what does he

say here, um, this was being

:

02:30:39,239 --> 02:30:40,999

managed by the Turkish mediators.

:

02:30:41,039 --> 02:30:47,469

I flew to Ankara in the spring of

:

:

02:30:47,689 --> 02:30:49,479

what happened in the mediation.

:

02:30:50,739 --> 02:30:54,919

The bottom line is this, Ukraine

walked away unilaterally.

:

02:30:56,439 --> 02:30:59,329

Why did they walk away

from the negotiations?

:

02:30:59,589 --> 02:31:01,599

Because the United States told them to.

:

02:31:03,489 --> 02:31:09,019

I mean, he's saying pretty much

clearly there, he's not surmising

:

02:31:09,049 --> 02:31:13,869

it, it's what the Turkish

mediators told him had happened.

:

02:31:13,989 --> 02:31:14,319

But

:

02:31:15,399 --> 02:31:20,519

Joe: again, if you've got somebody

feeding you information in negotiations,

:

02:31:20,519 --> 02:31:23,939

do you say, oh, I'm going to not bother

with that, the Americans have told me?

:

02:31:25,439 --> 02:31:28,359

Are you just going to go, no, this

isn't acceptable, we're going to walk

:

02:31:28,359 --> 02:31:29,929

away, these aren't the terms we want?

:

02:31:30,779 --> 02:31:31,479

Trevor: Well, you're not going to

:

02:31:31,489 --> 02:31:33,099

Joe: say the Americans have told me this.

:

02:31:33,989 --> 02:31:34,499

Trevor: Well,

:

02:31:36,619 --> 02:31:41,429

it's pretty clear from this that

the Turkish mediators told Sachs the

:

02:31:41,429 --> 02:31:47,459

reason it broke down was because the

Americans told the Ukrainians walk away.

:

02:31:49,159 --> 02:31:52,039

Joe: And again, maybe the Turkish

mediators are guessing this.

:

02:31:53,689 --> 02:31:56,669

I can't imagine that the

Ukrainians said we're walking

:

02:31:56,669 --> 02:31:58,144

away because we've been told to.

:

02:32:01,094 --> 02:32:04,264

You're showing your hand, and you

don't do that in negotiations.

:

02:32:04,444 --> 02:32:05,754

Trevor: Well, they were walking away.

:

02:32:06,254 --> 02:32:09,544

I can easily imagine, they said, we're

walking away, and the negotiator,

:

02:32:09,554 --> 02:32:10,904

and the Turkish said, What?

:

02:32:11,534 --> 02:32:12,074

Why?

:

02:32:12,474 --> 02:32:13,194

We're this close.

:

02:32:13,194 --> 02:32:13,804

What are you doing?

:

02:32:13,824 --> 02:32:15,374

And they said, well, the

Americans have told us to.

:

02:32:15,375 --> 02:32:18,364

I can easily imagine it.

:

02:32:19,544 --> 02:32:20,634

Joe: Or maybe they said They didn't have

:

02:32:20,634 --> 02:32:22,364

Trevor: to, they weren't

negotiating anymore.

:

02:32:22,384 --> 02:32:24,164

They didn't have a hand

to conceal anymore.

:

02:32:24,164 --> 02:32:25,514

They were just saying, we're out of here.

:

02:32:25,924 --> 02:32:27,884

Joe: Well, but why

would you even say that?

:

02:32:28,364 --> 02:32:31,474

Well, it, it became Or maybe you're

saying that as disinformation

:

02:32:31,484 --> 02:32:34,994

because they didn't want to say,

actually we've turned the tide.

:

02:32:35,424 --> 02:32:36,474

Trevor: So you could be right, Joe.

:

02:32:36,644 --> 02:32:43,924

It could be that the Turkish negotiators

either lied or misinf were mistaken as to

:

02:32:43,924 --> 02:32:48,179

what happened and passed that on to SACS?

:

02:32:48,539 --> 02:32:53,739

Well they didn't do any of that and

SACS is making it up, or it could

:

02:32:53,739 --> 02:32:55,149

all be true what SACS is saying.

:

02:32:56,699 --> 02:33:02,219

Joe: My understanding is negotiations

broke down after Ukraine started repel,

:

02:33:02,339 --> 02:33:04,489

uh, repelling the Russian attacks.

:

02:33:04,719 --> 02:33:05,649

Trevor: And not because the U.

:

02:33:05,649 --> 02:33:05,759

S.

:

02:33:05,779 --> 02:33:06,379

told them to.

:

02:33:06,719 --> 02:33:12,169

Joe: Well, maybe they did at the

same time, but the negotiations broke

:

02:33:12,169 --> 02:33:14,429

down at the time Ukraine was winning.

:

02:33:16,919 --> 02:33:17,379

Trevor: Okay.

:

02:33:17,739 --> 02:33:21,159

So that's the Jeffrey SACS EU speech.

:

02:33:23,814 --> 02:33:25,384

So now I've got an article.

:

02:33:25,444 --> 02:33:27,884

Do you want to say more about that

or I'll just go to the next article?

:

02:33:28,594 --> 02:33:34,024

Um, so Yanukovych, why Ukraine

spurned the EU and embraced Russia?

:

02:33:34,834 --> 02:33:40,414

So this is by, uh, journalist

Elizabeth Piper and this was

:

02:33:41,234 --> 02:33:45,684

in:

:

02:33:47,124 --> 02:33:49,874

So we're going back 12 years.

:

02:33:49,954 --> 02:33:50,264

Mm.

:

02:33:50,394 --> 02:33:51,694

Written at that time.

:

02:33:51,834 --> 02:33:55,444

Not sort of written now,

but written back then,:

:

02:33:56,154 --> 02:33:56,164

Mm.

:

02:33:58,529 --> 02:34:07,799

And um, here's the story, is on September

4th, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych

:

02:34:07,799 --> 02:34:10,479

called a meeting of his political party

for the first time in three years.

:

02:34:11,009 --> 02:34:14,219

For three hours Yanukovych cajoled

and bullied anyone who pushed for

:

02:34:14,219 --> 02:34:16,179

Ukraine to have closer ties to Russia.

:

02:34:17,189 --> 02:34:20,269

A handful of deputies from his

party of regents complained.

:

02:34:20,794 --> 02:34:25,364

That their businesses in Ukraine's Russian

speaking east would suffer if Yanukovych

:

02:34:25,384 --> 02:34:27,354

didn't agree to closer ties with Russia.

:

02:34:27,824 --> 02:34:28,714

That set him off.

:

02:34:29,274 --> 02:34:32,254

Forget about it forever, he

shouted at them, according to

:

02:34:32,254 --> 02:34:33,464

people who attended the meeting.

:

02:34:34,034 --> 02:34:36,934

Instead, the president argued for an

agreement to deepen trade and other

:

02:34:36,934 --> 02:34:38,594

cooperation with the European Union.

:

02:34:39,294 --> 02:34:41,874

Some deputies implored

him to change his mind.

:

02:34:42,314 --> 02:34:46,309

People who attended the meeting told

Reuters, Businessman warned that a

:

02:34:46,309 --> 02:34:50,609

deal with the EU would provoke Russia,

Ukraine's former master in Soviet

:

02:34:50,609 --> 02:34:56,559

times, into toughening an economic

blockade, blockade, on Ukrainian goods.

:

02:34:57,189 --> 02:34:58,639

Yanukovych stood firm.

:

02:34:59,259 --> 02:35:02,859

We will pursue integration with

Europe, he barked back, according to

:

02:35:02,859 --> 02:35:04,589

three people who attended the meeting.

:

02:35:04,989 --> 02:35:07,159

He seemed dead set on looking west.

:

02:35:08,279 --> 02:35:12,069

Less than three months later,

Yanukovych spurned the EU,

:

02:35:12,269 --> 02:35:15,208

embraced Putin, and struck a deal.

:

02:35:15,609 --> 02:35:20,329

for a bailout of his country,

with Russia investing 15 billion.

:

02:35:21,539 --> 02:35:23,019

What caused the U turn?

:

02:35:24,089 --> 02:35:28,119

Public and private arm twisting by

Putin, including threats to Ukraine's

:

02:35:28,119 --> 02:35:32,599

economy, and Yanukovych's political

future played a significant part.

:

02:35:32,919 --> 02:35:34,329

I don't doubt that at all.

:

02:35:34,949 --> 02:35:41,129

Trevor (2): So, so, significant

threats by the Putin to the economy.

:

02:35:42,364 --> 02:35:45,914

Trevor: But the unwillingness of the

EU and International Monetary Fund

:

02:35:45,924 --> 02:35:49,544

to be flexible in their demands of

Ukraine also had an effect, making

:

02:35:49,984 --> 02:35:51,864

them less attractive partners.

:

02:35:52,904 --> 02:35:57,274

And amid this international tug of

war, Yanukovych's personal antipathy

:

02:35:57,274 --> 02:36:04,849

to Antipathy towards his jail political

rival, Yulia Tymoshenko, was a factor.

:

02:36:05,489 --> 02:36:09,919

The EU accused Ukraine of

treating Tymoshenko unfairly

:

02:36:10,309 --> 02:36:11,739

to the annoyance of Yanukovych.

:

02:36:12,299 --> 02:36:16,789

The upshot is that Yanukovych, 63,

had split his party and his country.

:

02:36:17,458 --> 02:36:20,589

Hundreds of thousands of protesters have

taken to the streets demanding he step

:

02:36:20,589 --> 02:36:22,639

down and the country pursue justice.

:

02:36:23,164 --> 02:36:29,614

Closer links with the EU, just a

background on Yanukovych, humble roots,

:

02:36:29,954 --> 02:36:34,444

likes to be treated with respect and

as an equal, a characteristic that

:

02:36:34,444 --> 02:36:39,154

has informed much of his reluctance to

join the customs union of former Soviet

:

02:36:39,154 --> 02:36:40,884

states that Putin wants to create.

:

02:36:41,624 --> 02:36:44,934

Colleagues described the Berlian

leader as an intuitive politician

:

02:36:44,954 --> 02:36:47,134

who cannot abide being patronized.

:

02:36:47,984 --> 02:36:56,324

Um, Inna Bohoslovska, a member

of Yanukovych's party of regents,

:

02:36:57,024 --> 02:37:00,664

said Yanukovych made clear at the

cinema meeting his dislike of Russia

:

02:37:00,664 --> 02:37:05,924

treating Ukraine a second rate,

uh, some commentary about that.

:

02:37:06,064 --> 02:37:11,554

Um, Yanukovych felt he was better

treated by EU officials, um,

:

02:37:13,764 --> 02:37:15,374

one of the players in this.

:

02:37:15,844 --> 02:37:18,314

Zivania feels misled by Yanukovych.

:

02:37:18,314 --> 02:37:20,634

He tricked us all, it was

a complete, utter lie.

:

02:37:21,254 --> 02:37:22,704

This is when he said he

wanted to go to Europe.

:

02:37:23,224 --> 02:37:23,574

Joe: Mm hmm.

:

02:37:24,864 --> 02:37:27,374

Trevor: Others say Yanukovych's

desire to forge closer links with

:

02:37:27,384 --> 02:37:32,404

the EU was genuine, but he became

dismayed when he felt the EU failed

:

02:37:32,404 --> 02:37:35,944

to acknowledge the scale of the

financial difficulties he would face

:

02:37:36,374 --> 02:37:38,284

if he chose Brussels over Moscow.

:

02:37:39,944 --> 02:37:44,054

Yanukovych estimated he needed 160 billion

over three years to make up for the

:

02:37:44,054 --> 02:37:50,074

trade Ukraine would lose with Russia, and

to help cushion the pain from reforms.

:

02:37:50,414 --> 02:37:55,754

The EU was demanding, the EU refused

to give such a sum, which it said

:

02:37:55,754 --> 02:38:02,464

was exaggerated and instead offered,

um, Yeah, the EU at the time

:

02:38:03,364 --> 02:38:08,104

Joe: said they wanted justification for

it because there was huge amounts of

:

02:38:08,104 --> 02:38:13,974

corruption in Ukraine and they wanted to

prove that it basically wasn't him lining

:

02:38:14,083 --> 02:38:17,194

his own nest, feathering his own nest.

:

02:38:18,239 --> 02:38:22,519

Uh, so they wanted some detailed accounts

and apparently he didn't give it to them.

:

02:38:22,519 --> 02:38:23,639

So they didn't give him the money.

:

02:38:25,824 --> 02:38:28,874

Trevor: To Ukraine, there seemed little

prospect of getting the EU, already

:

02:38:28,874 --> 02:38:32,164

struggling to help with its indebted

members, to offer a better deal.

:

02:38:33,344 --> 02:38:37,144

Uh, while then Nick, who was

Ukraine's permanent representative

:

02:38:37,144 --> 02:38:39,274

for NATO, and others were furious.

:

02:38:39,284 --> 02:38:42,434

He told Reuters that when Ukraine

turned to Europe's officials for help.

:

02:38:43,014 --> 02:38:43,984

They spat on us.

:

02:38:45,404 --> 02:38:49,514

Ukraine was teetering on the brink of

bankruptcy, partly because Moscow was

:

02:38:49,514 --> 02:38:54,914

blocking sales of Ukrainian produced

meat, cheese and confectionery, and

:

02:38:54,914 --> 02:38:57,214

scrapping duty free quotas on steel pipes.

:

02:38:58,894 --> 02:39:02,114

Some officials said the restrictions

showed what life would be like if

:

02:39:02,114 --> 02:39:04,344

Ukraine signed the EU agreement.

:

02:39:06,344 --> 02:39:08,774

So Yanukovych's other hope was the IMF.

:

02:39:09,344 --> 02:39:13,954

The IMF, like the EU, was unwilling to

grant the sort of loans Yanukovych wanted.

:

02:39:14,369 --> 02:39:20,739

under a new program and it told Ukraine

it would not soften conditions for a new

:

02:39:20,749 --> 02:39:22,929

loan and would only offer five billion.

:

02:39:23,979 --> 02:39:25,309

So, you know, Kovich was furious.

:

02:39:25,329 --> 02:39:29,259

Party members said he believed the IMF had

ignored what he saw as reasonable demands.

:

02:39:30,189 --> 02:39:35,789

Um, uh, and um,

:

02:39:38,639 --> 02:39:43,359

let's talk about Timoshenko, that

the EU and the IMF are wanting

:

02:39:43,359 --> 02:39:45,699

him to treat Timoshenko better.

:

02:39:46,649 --> 02:39:47,219

He'd thrown

:

02:39:47,239 --> 02:39:49,749

Joe: her in jail because

she'd exposed his corruption.

:

02:39:50,689 --> 02:39:54,219

Trevor: And um, so he didn't like that.

:

02:39:54,779 --> 02:39:57,749

Obviously Putin wasn't

making the same demands, Joe.

:

02:39:58,458 --> 02:40:00,489

Um, so,

:

02:40:02,899 --> 02:40:06,439

Yanukovych was also offended when he found

out that Kiev would not be offered a firm

:

02:40:06,779 --> 02:40:08,629

prospect of full membership of the EU.

:

02:40:09,719 --> 02:40:10,309

Um,

:

02:40:12,309 --> 02:40:14,719

so they weren't going

to get a full one, um.

:

02:40:16,079 --> 02:40:21,726

On November 21, they suspended

discussions with the EU.

:

02:40:21,726 --> 02:40:27,809

EU negotiators had no time to renegotiate

before a meeting in the Lithuanian

:

02:40:27,809 --> 02:40:32,089

capital Seven days later, where Yanukovych

had been expected to sign agreement

:

02:40:32,769 --> 02:40:34,599

With the EU, he failed to do so.

:

02:40:35,949 --> 02:40:39,149

Yanukovych knew there would be

a cost, whichever way he turned.

:

02:40:39,359 --> 02:40:42,329

Spurning Putin would likely

bring economic damage.

:

02:40:43,259 --> 02:40:46,559

Spurning the EU has

brought political damage.

:

02:40:48,839 --> 02:40:51,609

You can see, Jay, he was between a

rock and a hard place at that point.

:

02:40:53,458 --> 02:40:58,069

Um, you can, this article, at the

conclusion of it, now this is back

:

02:40:58,069 --> 02:41:03,389

in:

and there is a huge boulder there.

:

02:41:03,769 --> 02:41:05,469

We go one way to Russia, and we get hit.

:

02:41:06,333 --> 02:41:08,564

We go the other way to

Europe, and we get hit.

:

02:41:09,294 --> 02:41:11,624

We stand still, and we get hit.

:

02:41:13,119 --> 02:41:18,449

said, drawing a diagram on a notebook,

that it will hurt less this way, he

:

02:41:18,449 --> 02:41:21,289

said, pointing to the European direction.

:

02:41:22,679 --> 02:41:23,859

I think he might've got that wrong.

:

02:41:24,759 --> 02:41:31,969

I thought that was a useful picture

painting of, of what he was facing.

:

02:41:31,969 --> 02:41:32,299

Also,

:

02:41:32,429 --> 02:41:37,189

Joe: Timoshenko, Yashchenko,

and Yanukovych had all served as

:

02:41:37,208 --> 02:41:42,029

ministers in the former presidents.

:

02:41:42,110 --> 02:41:43,699

Power.

:

02:41:44,059 --> 02:41:50,609

And then when Yanukovych was kicked out

because of the trumped up elections in

:

02:41:50,619 --> 02:41:58,499

:

had Timoshenko as his prime minister for a

:

02:41:58,499 --> 02:42:01,199

while until he had a falling out with her.

:

02:42:01,199 --> 02:42:04,689

And then he took Yanukovych on as

his prime minister until he had

:

02:42:04,689 --> 02:42:07,439

a falling out with him and kicked

him out and took Timoshenko back.

:

02:42:07,849 --> 02:42:08,229

So.

:

02:42:09,264 --> 02:42:12,184

They were all in their own, yeah,

:

02:42:14,583 --> 02:42:16,104

it's not like these

are opposition parties.

:

02:42:17,889 --> 02:42:25,349

They all had worked together, they had

all been in power together, so, um,

:

02:42:25,649 --> 02:42:32,819

it's worth knowing that this isn't, uh,

complete opposite ends of the spectrum.

:

02:42:33,539 --> 02:42:35,609

These people had all

been in power together.

:

02:42:36,859 --> 02:42:39,749

This, this was minor squabbling

between them at various

:

02:42:39,749 --> 02:42:40,119

Trevor: times.

:

02:42:40,119 --> 02:42:41,249

They were friends and enemies.

:

02:42:41,979 --> 02:42:46,589

Joe: Uh, yeah, I, um, apparently

Yashenko really didn't get on with

:

02:42:46,589 --> 02:42:51,189

Timoshenko personally, but she

was somebody he could work with.

:

02:42:53,189 --> 02:42:56,819

Trevor: Anyway, good background

on that one, and interesting

:

02:42:56,889 --> 02:42:58,149

that it was written at that time.

:

02:42:58,299 --> 02:43:02,139

Uh, Joe, we've talked about the

Russian economy, I've said it's

:

02:43:02,139 --> 02:43:06,729

going gangbusters, you're saying on

the ground it's not good for people?

:

02:43:08,569 --> 02:43:13,019

Joe: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's on a war

footing, which means the government

:

02:43:13,049 --> 02:43:19,889

is borrowing heavily, uh, cost of, uh,

inflation is going up because you've

:

02:43:19,889 --> 02:43:22,749

got too few people for too many jobs.

:

02:43:24,049 --> 02:43:25,219

Trevor (2): Just a

comment in the chat room.

:

02:43:25,249 --> 02:43:28,189

Essential Lord Don, sounds like

an episode of Home and Away.

:

02:43:29,109 --> 02:43:29,249

I

:

02:43:29,249 --> 02:43:30,369

Joe: can't say I've ever seen it.

:

02:43:30,759 --> 02:43:31,699

Trevor (2): The Ukrainian Parliament.

:

02:43:31,939 --> 02:43:32,299

Yes.

:

02:43:33,434 --> 02:43:34,024

Could be.

:

02:43:34,094 --> 02:43:34,434

Yeah.

:

02:43:34,874 --> 02:43:35,964

Thanks essential Lord Don.

:

02:43:36,454 --> 02:43:39,844

The seven people watching, just,

you could all just say hello if

:

02:43:39,844 --> 02:43:40,844

you're there, even if you just

:

02:43:40,844 --> 02:43:41,404

Trevor: say hello.

:

02:43:42,814 --> 02:43:47,854

Um, so anyway, I've got this article

from the internationalbanker.

:

02:43:48,694 --> 02:43:48,934

com.

:

02:43:48,935 --> 02:43:56,043

Um, uh, on October, now this

was written November,:

:

02:43:56,043 --> 02:43:56,754

Um.

:

02:43:58,515 --> 02:44:02,164

On October 22nd, International

Monetary Fund released the latest

:

02:44:02,164 --> 02:44:05,044

edition of its World Economic

Outlook, published twice a year.

:

02:44:05,054 --> 02:44:10,064

The report, the report's October issue

confirmed that the Organization expects

:

02:44:10,064 --> 02:44:11,514

the Russian economy to grow by 3.

:

02:44:11,514 --> 02:44:13,844

6 percent this year.

:

02:44:16,224 --> 02:44:20,384

Pretty good growth rate, comfortably

ahead of the United States 2.

:

02:44:20,385 --> 02:44:23,554

8, Germany 0, France 1.

:

02:44:23,555 --> 02:44:25,684

1, and the United Kingdom 1.

:

02:44:25,685 --> 02:44:25,844

1.

:

02:44:25,844 --> 02:44:30,454

So, uh, healthy growth

rate for Russian economy.

:

02:44:31,734 --> 02:44:36,104

By June, the World Bank had confirmed

that Russia had overtaken Germany and

:

02:44:36,104 --> 02:44:40,784

Japan to become the fourth largest

economy in the world, using purchasing

:

02:44:40,784 --> 02:44:43,344

power parity method of GDP calculation.

:

02:44:44,104 --> 02:44:45,514

That's a pretty fair effort, Joe.

:

02:44:46,214 --> 02:44:48,004

Fourth largest economy in the world.

:

02:44:48,384 --> 02:44:48,644

Joe: Yeah.

:

02:44:49,404 --> 02:44:52,333

The, the, the Russian government

is spending huge amounts

:

02:44:52,333 --> 02:44:53,083

of money at the moment.

:

02:44:53,134 --> 02:44:54,744

That's going to be great for an economy.

:

02:44:55,764 --> 02:45:00,364

Trevor: Well, you just, you've

got to be selling lots of.

:

02:45:01,729 --> 02:45:06,208

Stuff, like that's the, that's

the, that's not just the,

:

02:45:06,229 --> 02:45:08,569

Joe: the Russian government

is buying lots of ammunition.

:

02:45:08,859 --> 02:45:09,109

Trevor: Yeah.

:

02:45:09,129 --> 02:45:13,439

Well, but they're also selling

lots of oil and gas and like

:

02:45:13,458 --> 02:45:13,479

Joe: the

:

02:45:13,779 --> 02:45:14,269

Trevor: economy's

:

02:45:14,629 --> 02:45:15,809

Joe: at a deflated price.

:

02:45:15,809 --> 02:45:17,349

Oil price is a shit at the moment.

:

02:45:19,349 --> 02:45:19,779

Trevor: Okay.

:

02:45:19,958 --> 02:45:24,379

I'm just saying fourth largest economy,

Russia doesn't have that many, what's

:

02:45:24,449 --> 02:45:25,579

the, what's the population of Russia?

:

02:45:25,619 --> 02:45:26,159

Can somebody.

:

02:45:26,759 --> 02:45:28,379

How's it, how's it going in terms of

:

02:45:29,549 --> 02:45:30,119

Joe: uh,

:

02:45:30,149 --> 02:45:30,479

Trevor: some good?

:

02:45:30,479 --> 02:45:30,599

It's a

:

02:45:30,599 --> 02:45:32,429

Joe: hundred million,

if I remember correctly.

:

02:45:33,239 --> 02:45:33,299

Trevor: Yeah.

:

02:45:33,299 --> 02:45:33,629

Okay.

:

02:45:33,749 --> 02:45:34,649

Um, it goes on.

:

02:45:34,649 --> 02:45:37,409

Given the painful economic

headwinds Russia has faced since

:

02:45:37,409 --> 02:45:42,389

the outbreak of war, how is this

possible according to Pet Ya?

:

02:45:42,779 --> 02:45:45,899

Eva Brooks, deputy Director of

the IMFs Research Department,

:

02:45:45,899 --> 02:45:49,759

four key factors explain the

resilience of the Russian economy.

:

02:45:49,759 --> 02:45:54,659

In the face of sanctions first oil,

export volumes have held steady.

:

02:45:56,599 --> 02:45:59,839

Second, we've seen a lot of

strength in corporate investment.

:

02:46:00,589 --> 02:46:02,369

including by state owned enterprises.

:

02:46:03,149 --> 02:46:06,219

The third, we've seen a lot of

robustness in private consumption

:

02:46:06,899 --> 02:46:08,019

that has underpinned growth.

:

02:46:08,159 --> 02:46:12,039

And last but not least, we've had

the impact from government spending.

:

02:46:12,599 --> 02:46:13,509

So four factors there.

:

02:46:14,549 --> 02:46:15,249

Well, the headline

:

02:46:15,249 --> 02:46:18,179

Joe: GDP, 145 million is the population.

:

02:46:18,249 --> 02:46:23,409

Trevor: And how does that, James, compare

to as it rank in world populations?

:

02:46:23,419 --> 02:46:25,359

Like if it's the fourth largest economy.

:

02:46:26,069 --> 02:46:30,449

But what's its population ranking,

um, compared to other countries?

:

02:46:31,549 --> 02:46:37,519

Joe: Oh, it's going to be, I mean, there's

a lot of countries in the global South.

:

02:46:38,989 --> 02:46:44,659

So yeah, China's a billion,

um, India's a billion, uh,

:

02:46:44,689 --> 02:46:47,979

Indonesia's a few hundred million.

:

02:46:48,829 --> 02:46:51,609

Trevor: This is like Brazil and the U.

:

02:46:51,609 --> 02:46:51,769

Joe: S.

:

02:46:51,770 --> 02:46:53,119

is 300 million.

:

02:46:53,289 --> 02:46:53,589

Trevor: Yep.

:

02:46:54,829 --> 02:46:56,049

Joe: So it's probably 10th.

:

02:46:56,958 --> 02:47:00,789

Trevor: So fourth is pretty

good result in terms of economy.

:

02:47:00,849 --> 02:47:07,579

Anyway, um, while headline GDP figures do

indeed impress, that's not to say Russia

:

02:47:07,609 --> 02:47:09,919

does not face distinct downside risks.

:

02:47:11,539 --> 02:47:14,069

Bank of Russia recently

confirmed the country's.

:

02:47:14,984 --> 02:47:17,614

inflation rate at 9.

:

02:47:17,615 --> 02:47:18,434

Joe: 8%.

:

02:47:18,434 --> 02:47:19,254

Um,

:

02:47:21,014 --> 02:47:26,464

Trevor: that's why interest rates are at

21%, which are things you've said, Joe.

:

02:47:27,964 --> 02:47:32,324

Um, inflation is being supported

by tightness in the Russian labour

:

02:47:32,324 --> 02:47:34,724

market with unemployment record low 2.

:

02:47:34,874 --> 02:47:40,184

4 percent and a growing labour

shortage in many industries, forcing

:

02:47:40,184 --> 02:47:45,694

wages upward at a rate that is

outpacing labour productivity growth.

:

02:47:46,924 --> 02:47:49,904

Real wages are skyrocketing, Janice Kluge.

:

02:47:49,964 --> 02:47:51,014

While they're spending money.

:

02:47:52,604 --> 02:47:57,514

Real wage, real wages are skyrocketing,

says Janice Kluge, an expert on Russia's

:

02:47:57,514 --> 02:48:01,144

economy with the German Institute

for International Security Affairs.

:

02:48:02,404 --> 02:48:06,894

You have people who hardly earned any

money before the full scale invasion,

:

02:48:07,384 --> 02:48:09,174

who suddenly have huge amounts of money.

:

02:48:09,175 --> 02:48:09,524

Mm

:

02:48:09,604 --> 02:48:09,894

Joe: hmm.

:

02:48:10,324 --> 02:48:15,974

Trevor: So Joe, I've been saying

that actually Putin's popular because

:

02:48:16,074 --> 02:48:18,624

lots of Russians are doing very well.

:

02:48:18,625 --> 02:48:18,689

Mm hmm.

:

02:48:19,769 --> 02:48:23,689

And okay, inflation is high at 10%,

:

02:48:24,019 --> 02:48:24,329

Joe: but

:

02:48:24,579 --> 02:48:27,319

Trevor: wages are outpacing inflation.

:

02:48:27,699 --> 02:48:32,439

So there are a lot of people doing

a lot better than they did before.

:

02:48:32,929 --> 02:48:33,279

Absolutely.

:

02:48:33,289 --> 02:48:33,708

Yes.

:

02:48:33,769 --> 02:48:41,269

So, um, uh, so with extra money

in their pockets, Russians are

:

02:48:41,269 --> 02:48:43,149

experiencing a healthy consumer boom.

:

02:48:43,929 --> 02:48:50,509

Um, they're consuming like crazy and

this consumption creates domestic demand.

:

02:48:51,754 --> 02:48:54,684

Um, interest rates high,

blah, blah, blah, blah.

:

02:48:54,714 --> 02:48:57,614

So, so yeah, that's the

story on the Russian economy.

:

02:48:58,054 --> 02:48:59,414

James, thank you, James.

:

02:48:59,434 --> 02:49:07,564

Uh, ninth in terms of population, fourth

in terms of GDP, um, inflation high,

:

02:49:07,734 --> 02:49:10,074

but real wages outpacing inflation.

:

02:49:10,944 --> 02:49:12,583

That's the Russian economy in a nutshell.

:

02:49:13,274 --> 02:49:17,704

They, um, they've been under sanctions

so long that they've kind of figured

:

02:49:17,704 --> 02:49:22,174

out ways to get around it so they're not

worried about American sanctions anymore.

:

02:49:24,134 --> 02:49:25,654

You mentioned Joe Ratkomladich?

:

02:49:28,144 --> 02:49:28,644

Yes.

:

02:49:29,164 --> 02:49:38,624

And he was charged with Um, genocide,

but he was cleared of genocide.

:

02:49:39,134 --> 02:49:44,624

Joe: No, he was charged with two counts

of genocide, one of which he was cleared

:

02:49:44,884 --> 02:49:46,564

and was found guilty on the other charge.

:

02:49:47,154 --> 02:49:49,784

Trevor: See, I've got, I've

just got from Wikipedia.

:

02:49:49,894 --> 02:49:50,314

Joe: Yeah.

:

02:49:51,284 --> 02:49:51,694

Trevor: Is that wrong?

:

02:49:52,624 --> 02:49:56,704

Joe: Look further down the article in

Wikipedia and it says, He was found

:

02:49:56,724 --> 02:50:01,794

guilty of genocide in Trebinica, and

is serving a life sentence for it.

:

02:50:02,484 --> 02:50:04,924

Trevor: See, uh, uh, what

did I got to, I don't know.

:

02:50:05,694 --> 02:50:10,684

Joe: Yeah, he was found not guilty

of another, um, set of war crimes.

:

02:50:13,364 --> 02:50:14,974

Trevor: See, I, okay, I

was reading this speech.

:

02:50:14,984 --> 02:50:17,414

He was sentenced, he was

sentenced to life in prison.

:

02:50:17,884 --> 02:50:23,214

After being found guilty of ten charges,

one of genocide, five of crimes against

:

02:50:23,214 --> 02:50:29,614

humanity, and four of violations of

the laws of customs of war, he was

:

02:50:29,614 --> 02:50:31,114

cleared of one count of genocide.

:

02:50:31,844 --> 02:50:33,574

Joe: Yeah, so that was

the eleventh charge.

:

02:50:33,684 --> 02:50:37,154

So he's found guilty of ten

and cleared of an eleventh.

:

02:50:37,234 --> 02:50:40,554

Trevor: Ah, I'll have to read that again.

:

02:50:40,694 --> 02:50:41,684

I'll have to go back to that one.

:

02:50:42,254 --> 02:50:43,874

Because I thought that was

just the answer to that one.

:

02:50:46,799 --> 02:50:57,819

You want to talk about genocide in, in,

um, just, um, before we do, let's just

:

02:50:57,819 --> 02:50:59,509

quickly, let's go back to that one.

:

02:50:59,529 --> 02:51:04,619

But, um, I think Kursk

has been overrun now, Joe.

:

02:51:05,369 --> 02:51:08,869

Are we like the, the Russians

:

02:51:08,869 --> 02:51:10,339

Joe: have been saying it's overrun.

:

02:51:10,339 --> 02:51:10,649

I don't know.

:

02:51:13,054 --> 02:51:18,754

Trevor: We've also got, um, Elon Musk

threatening to take out Starlink.

:

02:51:19,714 --> 02:51:24,134

That's a reason, dear listener, why,

why billionaires are dangerous, when

:

02:51:24,134 --> 02:51:25,804

they can decide the course of the world.

:

02:51:25,805 --> 02:51:28,804

Joe: Yeah, and Poland got into a big

argument with him, because Poland are

:

02:51:28,804 --> 02:51:30,074

saying, but we're paying the bill.

:

02:51:30,734 --> 02:51:32,314

It's not like they're

getting this for free.

:

02:51:32,504 --> 02:51:32,944

Trevor: Right.

:

02:51:34,344 --> 02:51:34,964

And

:

02:51:34,964 --> 02:51:38,604

Joe: lots of countries are looking

very closely at any relationships

:

02:51:38,684 --> 02:51:45,384

Starlink on the grounds that if Elon

fails, he can turn it off on a whim.

:

02:51:46,059 --> 02:51:47,559

Do they want to be

doing business with him?

:

02:51:47,859 --> 02:51:48,129

Trevor: Yeah.

:

02:51:49,059 --> 02:51:50,019

Um, you know what?

:

02:51:50,049 --> 02:51:51,809

I reckon at 10.

:

02:51:51,810 --> 02:51:59,929

24 I shouldn't have in the can of worms

on NATO and Um, all that, and Serbia.

:

02:52:00,369 --> 02:52:01,689

I'll do that for next week.

:

02:52:02,399 --> 02:52:02,769

Okay.

:

02:52:04,179 --> 02:52:05,389

Joe: Bye, do you need to be up early?

:

02:52:05,399 --> 02:52:07,259

I've actually got a hospital

appointment tomorrow morning.

:

02:52:08,569 --> 02:52:08,999

Trevor: There you go.

:

02:52:09,819 --> 02:52:10,489

Dear listener.

:

02:52:10,799 --> 02:52:11,659

Oh, James.

:

02:52:12,689 --> 02:52:15,599

India, China, United States,

Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria,

:

02:52:15,599 --> 02:52:18,219

Brazil, Bangladesh, Russia, Ethiopia.

:

02:52:20,819 --> 02:52:21,249

There we go.

:

02:52:23,479 --> 02:52:24,119

Right.

:

02:52:24,739 --> 02:52:28,458

Thanks for everyone in the chat

room who's still there, all six

:

02:52:28,458 --> 02:52:31,279

of you, that was a long episode.

:

02:52:33,208 --> 02:52:34,969

Joe: Scott'll be

heartbroken you missed out.

:

02:52:36,089 --> 02:52:36,289

Trevor: He'll

:

02:52:36,289 --> 02:52:36,419

Trevor (2): be

:

02:52:36,479 --> 02:52:37,039

Trevor: thankful.

:

02:52:39,899 --> 02:52:41,429

Trevor (2): We'll be

back next week with more.

:

02:52:42,769 --> 02:52:43,439

Trevor: Bye for now.

:

02:52:45,369 --> 02:52:47,519

Joe: Alright, goodnight everyone.

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