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Episode 420 - Footballers and Racism
Topics:
00:45 Introducing the Hosts and a Missing Member
01:27 Diving into Today's Hot Topics: Footballers and Controversies
05:55 Exploring the Complexities of Racism and Power Dynamics
12:11 The Legal Landscape of Racism and Public Perception
15:28 Analyzing Specific Cases and the Definition of Racism
19:09 The Debate Continues: Institutional Power and Racism
22:50 Reflecting on Behavior, Privilege, and the Essence of Racism
26:52 Exploring the Complexities of Racism and Privilege
28:04 The Condescension in Discourse on Racism
28:58 Redefining Racism: Beyond Skin Color and Gender
29:23 The Trivialization of Racism and Its Legal Implications
31:55 The Misunderstood Nature of Racism in Society
34:50 The Debate Over Racism Definitions and Its Impact
36:57 Summation: A Call for a Fair Understanding of Racism
41:21 The Nuclear Power Debate: A Futile Pursuit?
49:24 Closing Remarks and Miscellaneous Discussions
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Transcript
Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,
Speaker:evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.
Speaker:But today, we observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that
Speaker:gather together atop a small mound to watch, question, and discuss
Speaker:the current events of their city.
Speaker:Their country and their world at large.
Speaker:Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the
Speaker:Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:Well, we're back.
Speaker:Episode 420, Iron Fist Velvet Glove podcast, streaming to you live
Speaker:on a Monday night from Brisbane.
Speaker:I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist.
Speaker:With me for the moment, Joe, the tech guy.
Speaker:How are you, Joe?
Speaker:Evening all.
Speaker:And somewhere out there, might be Scott, but he just hasn't arrived.
Speaker:So, don't know what the story is with Scott.
Speaker:Hopefully, he'll join in at some stage.
Speaker:So, so yeah, hopefully Scott will be there.
Speaker:We've had a few technical issues in the lead up.
Speaker:That's why we're a couple of minutes late.
Speaker:If you're in the chat room, say hello.
Speaker:There are two people there, apparently.
Speaker:Unless that's just you and I that are counted in that too, Joe.
Speaker:The tech.
Speaker:Okay, good.
Speaker:Say hello if you're there.
Speaker:topics.
Speaker:What are we going to talk about?
Speaker:Well, you've got to hand it to footballers for presenting this podcast
Speaker:with plenty of material over the years.
Speaker:Israel Folau was fantastic for providing hours of arguments.
Speaker:A lot of it involving the 12th man as well.
Speaker:a lot of that time I was actually on the same wavelength as the 12th man, I think.
Speaker:So anyway, we've got a couple of footballers in the last week.
Speaker:Samantha Kerr, soccer player, and we've also got Ezra Mamm,
Speaker:who was racially insulted, while playing in America on the NRL game.
Speaker:Or was he racially insulted?
Speaker:It's all getting quite confusing, Joe.
Speaker:Have you been keeping up with the to ing and fro ing about how different
Speaker:people have labelled these events?
Speaker:I merely saw the Sam Kerr stuff, I didn't see the other one.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, so yeah, dear listener, there's quite a lot of discussion about what these,
Speaker:are you, you know, the true meaning of these events, whether they were racist
Speaker:and a lot of people getting very upset online about, how they label these events.
Speaker:So, so we're going to spend a bit of time on that and what
Speaker:else are we going to talk about?
Speaker:what else is on my list here?
Speaker:We've got, a little China update and, About the Reserve Bank and, oh,
Speaker:remember we spoke just a week or two ago about, our obligations in relation
Speaker:to supplying arms to Israel and whether we were in breach of, of, laws
Speaker:regarding the supply of arms and how, The Netherlands had stopped supplying.
Speaker:Well, in the meantime, Anthony Albanese has been referred to an
Speaker:international, yes, an international court for his actions and
Speaker:inactions in relation to Israel.
Speaker:So kind of along the same lines, a bit about that and, maybe we'll talk a
Speaker:little bit about nuclear power as well because that's come up on the radar.
Speaker:Because that's the one and only policy that Dutton and the Liberal
Speaker:Party, Joe, have come up with.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It's it's Clean Coal 2.
Speaker:0, isn't it?
Speaker:It's what?
Speaker:Clean Coal 2.
Speaker:0.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's another excuse not to, stop burning coal for the next 20 years,
Speaker:whilst we faff around thinking about possibly maybe doing nuclear.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:It, it just shows how abysmal this group is, that that's the best
Speaker:thing that they could come up with.
Speaker:And it's a complete dud of a decision.
Speaker:Nobody is, is going to be up for this except Joe, their existing
Speaker:voters who might like the idea.
Speaker:But, but when, in terms of the crowd they've got to win over to win an
Speaker:election, this is not going to fly.
Speaker:And as people learn more about it.
Speaker:they'll, they'll be even more against it, I think, once,
Speaker:once they understand the facts.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Anyway, we'll get to that.
Speaker:So, ah, oh, before we start, Joe, what we're grateful for, let me just say I'm
Speaker:grateful again for Anesthetic, because I'm going to have some more of it tomorrow.
Speaker:Because I've got, ah, the listener, I've got really bad
Speaker:varicose veins on my right leg.
Speaker:I've had them for years and I decided to do something about it.
Speaker:And while I'm getting these maintenance issues done on my
Speaker:body, I thought, what the heck?
Speaker:I'm 59.
Speaker:I'll get these things done before my warranty expires.
Speaker:So I'll be under the knife again tomorrow and enjoying some anaesthetic.
Speaker:And, yeah, I'll be fixing out my varicose veins.
Speaker:So, so once again, I'm grateful for anaesthetic.
Speaker:You grateful for anything, Joe?
Speaker:Are you?
Speaker:Well, my sister in law bought me a bottle of rum whilst I was in
Speaker:France, which I wasn't thankful for at the time because I had to get it
Speaker:back through customs and in luggage.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:but it does turn out to be a very nice bottle of rum, so I'm thankful for that.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:That's a simple one.
Speaker:That's good.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Dear listener, just a, a, a reminder, this podcast has chapters, you should be able
Speaker:to look on your app and find the chapters and scoot around topics if you don't want
Speaker:to hear us fluff about with our personal anecdotes at the beginning, if you want
Speaker:to jump straight into the meaty topics.
Speaker:Check out the chapters and do that.
Speaker:So, well, Samantha Kerr, another footballer presenting an ethical
Speaker:conundrum, if you've been living in a cave and haven't heard, so there
Speaker:was an allegation that the Matildas captain, Samantha Kerr, was in a
Speaker:taxi cab and threw up and there was an altercation with the taxi driver
Speaker:about the fare and the police became involved and that she called a British
Speaker:police officer, a stupid white bastard.
Speaker:And that she has denied.
Speaker:She said she called him a stupid white cop, I think, is the latest version.
Speaker:But certainly the use of the word white is not disputed.
Speaker:And as Crikey said, this has seen a flood of takes.
Speaker:conservative commentator Calla Bond, writing for the Herald Sun, said the
Speaker:decision to charge her with hurting a policeman's feelings was madness.
Speaker:Adding it would be one of the least offensive things he'd been called.
Speaker:Writing for Crikey, lawyer Michael Bradley said there was a legal precedent
Speaker:that being called white isn't a term of abuse, nor a descriptor of any
Speaker:ethnic, national or racial group.
Speaker:And he based that on a case where a woman called a prison officer.
Speaker:Oh, by the way, dear listener, language warning in this episode, unfortunately.
Speaker:Keep the kiddies away.
Speaker:So yeah, a woman called a prison officer.
Speaker:A fucking white piece of shit, some years ago, and apparently got off.
Speaker:That was in Australia, wasn't it?
Speaker:Yes, it was.
Speaker:Indeed.
Speaker:And this is in the UK.
Speaker:Indeed.
Speaker:And no doubt the laws are written quite differently.
Speaker:They are, yes.
Speaker:former socceroo, Craig Foster, urged Football Australia to
Speaker:strip Kerr of her captaincy.
Speaker:If the allegation is proven, saying all racism should be dealt with equally.
Speaker:But later on, he recount, he, he went back on that, and he said, quote,
Speaker:Sam Kerr's case has created immensely important conversations and exposed gaps
Speaker:in Australia's knowledge, including mine.
Speaker:I am not at all surprised to have got this wrong.
Speaker:Apologise to Sam for reaching the wrong conclusion, and am very pleased
Speaker:to be able to improve my advocacy.
Speaker:So, that was him going back on what he'd originally said, and, we've
Speaker:got, an academic told the Sydney Morning Herald, racism is prejudice
Speaker:plus institutional power, and Kerr's alleged slur didn't fit the bill.
Speaker:so, oh look, dear listener, what it's going to come down
Speaker:to is people's understanding, Lyman's understanding of racism.
Speaker:Compared with legal and sort of NGO government use and
Speaker:understanding of the term racism.
Speaker:So, we'll get to that.
Speaker:Um, here's another take.
Speaker:This is from a Twitter account of AYEDFY who's posted Lots of people on the
Speaker:left, suddenly okay with a highly paid coloniser denigrating a working class
Speaker:Indigenous person with racial slurs.
Speaker:Good on the local police for resisting Kerr's imperialist violence.
Speaker:Joe, I like that one just as an example of, you know, every, one man's freedom
Speaker:fighter is another man's terrorist.
Speaker:Just another way of looking at things.
Speaker:I like that one.
Speaker:Appreciated that different take on that one.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, the UK is well known for being the police chasing
Speaker:down people for Twitter comments and charging them with offence.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:so that it's happening in all directions doesn't surprise me.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Here's some more comments just to give you some flavour of the arguments.
Speaker:I don't get it.
Speaker:How is it possible to give racist offence to a white person?
Speaker:It's hurt feelings against The exercise of racial power through language.
Speaker:Conservatives think they win by turning everything on its head.
Speaker:And another person writes, A lot of people don't actually understand the
Speaker:true definition of racism is based on systems of power and oppression.
Speaker:not just insults in a bar.
Speaker:And Joe, the Human Rights Commission said, Racism is the process by which systems
Speaker:and policies, actions and attitudes create inequitable opportunities and
Speaker:outcomes for people based on race.
Speaker:Racism is more than just prejudice in thought or action.
Speaker:It occurs when this prejudice, whether individual or institutional,
Speaker:So Joe, I would have thought that if you just think that a certain racial group
Speaker:is, is less worthy, is somehow lower in status, is to be denigrated in some way,
Speaker:you've got a negative attitude to a racial group, that that was kind of racism, is
Speaker:how I would have thought of as race, kind of the dictionary definition of racism.
Speaker:But what a lot of these commentators are saying is that, nope, it's got to
Speaker:be accompanied by the person making the insult or, or sort of the racial,
Speaker:racist act, has to have some sort of power over the other person, that will
Speaker:allow them to discriminate, potentially, and also handy if there's some sort
Speaker:of institution involved in it as well that they represent, if there's
Speaker:some sort of institutional power.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:This is special pleading, isn't it?
Speaker:Well, it's extra sort of hurdles and elements of Special pleading.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think what's happening here So really what they're saying is somebody
Speaker:insulting somebody in a bar, calling somebody a bastard or something like
Speaker:that, isn't racism unless it comes with some sort of power imbalance or some
Speaker:sort of institutional power imbalance.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, unfortunately, the people wielding that argument are also doing
Speaker:it in a way that's really denigrating the other people who are using the
Speaker:more common dictionary definition.
Speaker:And the reason this is happening, Joe, I think, is it because people
Speaker:are applying a legalistic definition of racism to the circumstances.
Speaker:And in the law, look, they don't want to deal with trivial cases.
Speaker:They don't want to just deal with minor matters.
Speaker:They do in England.
Speaker:Well, okay, maybe they do, but I can see that the law would say, look, arguments
Speaker:in a bar, we don't necessarily want to hear about somebody just slagging
Speaker:off across the street at somebody.
Speaker:we want to see, a genuine potential for discrimination.
Speaker:We want to see power being used inappropriately.
Speaker:We want to see, institutions involved in order for us to apply
Speaker:extra legal penalties, because often this is like an aggravating aspect
Speaker:of an offence, like if you are.
Speaker:And so I can see how the law would say, we've got these extra bits
Speaker:and pieces that we want to see.
Speaker:before we're going to create extra penalties for racism.
Speaker:And, but then the people who are wielding that argument are really
Speaker:then saying, well, there you go.
Speaker:That's what racism means in everyday life.
Speaker:And it's not.
Speaker:It can mean more than that.
Speaker:It's, it doesn't have to jump through those hurdles in everyday life as we,
Speaker:the common people, understand racism.
Speaker:So, so that's where I'm getting to with this.
Speaker:And I'm finding it dangerous, unnecessary, risky, when people want to, to make it
Speaker:more difficult to describe something as racism, because racism is an ugly thing.
Speaker:Why would we want to be?
Speaker:Limiting the idea of it, when we don't have to.
Speaker:We should be calling it out when it's there and not finding
Speaker:excuses that it doesn't exist.
Speaker:And it's all then complicated by sympathy for, for wanting things
Speaker:tossed out when they're just trivial.
Speaker:So that's an, sort of an overlay over, over the whole thing.
Speaker:So I can see comments are starting to flood in and, oh, Scott's not joining us.
Speaker:Not sure.
Speaker:But, anyway.
Speaker:I'll get back to the comments after I've had my rant on this,
Speaker:and then see what everybody says.
Speaker:Might be easiest rather than dealing with it.
Speaker:So keep making your comments, and I'll try and get to them.
Speaker:So let me do a bit more.
Speaker:So, so where this gets tricky then is where we've had the case
Speaker:of the Broncos footballer, Ezra Mann, who was playing football, NRL
Speaker:first round, playing in Las Vegas.
Speaker:And Spencer Leniu, Leniui, who I think is of a kind of a
Speaker:Polynesian descent on the field.
Speaker:called Ezra Mamm a monkey, and he, Ezra Mamm was immediately, greatly offended,
Speaker:immediately reported it to the referee, and apparently shortly, you know, the game
Speaker:finished not long afterwards, and he was in the sheds crying and very upset by it.
Speaker:by this insult.
Speaker:So if you're going to hold that it's only racist, it's only racism if it's
Speaker:accompanied by institutional power, then you'd have to say that that
Speaker:footballer wasn't acting with any institutional power against Ezra Mamm.
Speaker:And therefore, what he said to Ezra Mamm.
Speaker:Wasn't racist.
Speaker:Because it was the lack of the institutional power and
Speaker:the ability to discriminate.
Speaker:And that's just crazy.
Speaker:But also, was he calling him a monkey because of the color of his skin, or was
Speaker:he saying, oh, you're a fucking monkey?
Speaker:Because you've got less intelligence than the average human.
Speaker:Yeah, who knows what he was Well, actually, I do have his statement here.
Speaker:So this is the statement by Spencer Lenny Yu, am I right?
Speaker:Lenny Yu?
Speaker:I've mucked up the pronunciation, but, Because he was in front of the
Speaker:NRL Commission, so he's been charged with, sort of, conduct unbecoming
Speaker:to the game, I think is more or less what he's been charged with.
Speaker:And his statement was, I'm so sorry I said that to Ezra and made him feel little.
Speaker:This game is so fast, and at the time I didn't know the meaning
Speaker:of that word, and how much it means to the Indigenous community.
Speaker:He said something to me, and I said something to him,
Speaker:and I thought it was banter.
Speaker:At the time, I thought it was one brown man saying something to another brown man.
Speaker:How we speak to each other is so common.
Speaker:At the time, I had no idea what that word meant.
Speaker:There is no room for racism in the game, and I'm glad he's brought it up.
Speaker:I love the Indigenous community and their culture.
Speaker:We wouldn't have the game without them.
Speaker:Looking back on it now, I can't believe he used that word, but I didn't mean,
Speaker:in any racial way, I'm so sorry.
Speaker:So, does that answer that, Joe, as to what he was thinking when he said it?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, it sounds like he was just Let's, let's, let's, let's just assume
Speaker:the worst, and they just didn't think it was a right, just, imagine somebody
Speaker:using it in a racial slur, like they're just like, you know, if you don't have
Speaker:institutional power attached to it.
Speaker:The definition being used by a lot of these people Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:means it's, it's not racism.
Speaker:And it clearly could be.
Speaker:Well, then the special pleading is does he have more power because of the
Speaker:colour of his skin than the person?
Speaker:But they're both brown.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but one's an Aboriginal, one's an Islander.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So is an island a slightly less high on the scale?
Speaker:This is where, why would you introduce this power necessity if you don't have to?
Speaker:Because it gets really ugly then, doesn't it?
Speaker:Like, Joe It's the race to the bottom, isn't it?
Speaker:It's, I'm more oppressed than you are.
Speaker:Is, is a multi million dollar footballer With access to prime ministers and
Speaker:celebrities and the media, more powerful than an English bobby, in some respects.
Speaker:Yeah, an English bobby has the power of the law behind them.
Speaker:But how about a white guy in a pub, a tradie in a pub, who is white, who
Speaker:insults a multi million dollar footballer?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:They get into an argument and the multi million dollar footballer,
Speaker:Sam Kerr, if she'd insulted Just a working white, a white working
Speaker:class man in the pub, for example.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Who doesn't have the power of the police force behind him.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:you know, the argument would be by these people running this line is, let's
Speaker:say she insulted a white, the white taxi driver, not the white, Policeman.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The argument would be, well, he's just part of the institution of white people
Speaker:that's privileged, and therefore, whether he knows it or not, he's wielding
Speaker:institutional power that she doesn't have.
Speaker:And you know what?
Speaker:People are going to get really pissed with that sort of argument.
Speaker:When they are of the working class, they don't see any institution that
Speaker:they're part of, and Well, they're standing up for them, correct.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's, it's a, it's a hurdle that people are wanting to throw in, that I think is
Speaker:really only needed when you're looking at the legal issue, when you're looking
Speaker:at extra penalties, and you're trying to find something worthy of extra penalty.
Speaker:But for the general notion of a racist act, I think it's a mistake
Speaker:what these people are doing.
Speaker:So, um, actually I've got a clip here, Joe.
Speaker:so, Milwaukee Rites, 2016.
Speaker:Angry crowds took to the streets in Milwaukee on a Sunday night to protest
Speaker:the shooting death of an armed man by a police officer hours earlier.
Speaker:So, this was obviously a black man I think, shot by police officers, so,
Speaker:let's just play, actually, I've gotta, because I got bounced out of there,
Speaker:I've gotta put that back up, play this clip, and, here we go, play this.
Speaker:Hey, white!
Speaker:There's no white person!
Speaker:Right here!
Speaker:Hey, white, get that ass!
Speaker:Run, nigga!
Speaker:Burn that bitch up!
Speaker:Hey!
Speaker:Hey, they beatin up every white person!
Speaker:They jumpin at every white person!
Speaker:Man, no white person come down on Charmin!
Speaker:Right here!
Speaker:He white!
Speaker:BBC!
Speaker:Bitch!
Speaker:A crowd of rioters looking for white people to beat up, Joe.
Speaker:But if they don't have institutional power, it's not a racist act.
Speaker:does Bob have institutional power?
Speaker:Certainly has power.
Speaker:Yeah, well, the definition these people are using is, is institutional power.
Speaker:And if you're just going to talk about power of any sort, it gets
Speaker:very hazy as to, as to power.
Speaker:It's, it really complicates the issue.
Speaker:Anyway, just for some, some light relief in the middle of this, from
Speaker:the shovel, Matilda's captain, Sam Kerr, has been honoured for her unique
Speaker:contribution to Australian culture after she got shitfaced, chucked up in a cab,
Speaker:disputed the fair, and then called an English cop a stupid white bastard.
Speaker:Nothing exemplifies the Australian spirit better than getting munted and then
Speaker:picking a fight with law enforcement.
Speaker:It's what this country was built on, a spokesman for Australian
Speaker:of the Year Awards said.
Speaker:People do need to take a bit of a step back on this one at some point
Speaker:and go, it's pretty poor behaviour.
Speaker:To get shitfaced and throw up in a cab, and, and then start arguing with
Speaker:people, like You see a lot of comments by ex taxi drivers saying what a pain
Speaker:in the ass it is when it happens, it disrupts their income for the trip,
Speaker:it's impossible to get the smell out fully, and a multi million dollar
Speaker:soccer player should be effusively apologetic, and People are wanting to
Speaker:stand up for her in this situation.
Speaker:Kind of, just, remember, that's actually what happened.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:When you, So, so, a, a privileged person who's earning millions of
Speaker:dollars has ruined the evening's takings of a working person.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:yeah, take, take colourist skin out of it.
Speaker:Let's, let's stop being racist and talk about colours.
Speaker:Let's just talk about these people.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Really shitty behaviour.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:bear all that in mind.
Speaker:so Michael Bradley writes for, he's from Markey Lawyers, he writes a lot
Speaker:in Crikey, and um, he says that, he runs the legal argument that, It's
Speaker:not racism, let me just find the relevant part here, He says, let's get
Speaker:directly to the heart of the matter.
Speaker:It's no defence to a charge of racial vilification to point to the literal
Speaker:truth of the racist words you've said.
Speaker:Use brown or yellow as a personal descriptor, and yep, that's racist.
Speaker:So does the same apply to white?
Speaker:As one conservative commentator insisted, if you're okay with what Kerr said, you
Speaker:need to genuinely be okay with a white guy calling someone a stupid black bastard.
Speaker:And you might be, but you need to be consistent.
Speaker:So, conservative commentator says, if you're okay with what Kerr said, then you
Speaker:should be okay with somebody, a white guy calling someone a stupid black bastard.
Speaker:And, and the writer, Michael Bradley says, Well, white man, no you don't.
Speaker:There's legal precedent for why you're talking about two unrelated
Speaker:things which only reflects the simple truth that really gets your goat.
Speaker:Reverse racism is not a thing.
Speaker:and then he talks about, this case of, A Samantha Power visiting her partner
Speaker:in a prison, and when she was refused entry, allegedly expressed her unhappiness
Speaker:by calling a police officer, a prison officer, a fucking white piece of shit.
Speaker:And the officer claimed he'd been racially vilified, and that was rejected
Speaker:by the Federal Magistrates Court.
Speaker:Ian Bradley says, that's similar to the UK offence.
Speaker:It was essential to the charge that powers abuse of the officer
Speaker:had been done because of his race, colour or national or ethnic origin.
Speaker:The judge ruled that being white, per se, is not descriptive of any particular
Speaker:ethnic, national or racial group, nor is it of itself a term of abuse.
Speaker:White people are the dominant people historically and
Speaker:culturally within Australia.
Speaker:They are not in any sense an oppressed group whose political
Speaker:and civil rights are under threat.
Speaker:And, so, Radley says, I don't know historically.
Speaker:For a very, very small period.
Speaker:Yeah, we're saying that the Aboriginals have been here for 40, 000 years.
Speaker:White people have been dominant for 200 of them.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And not even.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Mm hmm.
Speaker:Um, he goes here, The law of race hate was invented to combat actual
Speaker:racism and its toxic social effects.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:White people in the UK, as in Australia, have never been
Speaker:the victims of actual racism.
Speaker:The privilege afforded by their skin remains intact.
Speaker:And he says, That Kerr's undoubted hostility towards his police officer was
Speaker:not because of his race, whatever his race may be, could be anything from French
Speaker:Canadian to lower Slobovian, is surely beneath our dignity to have to explain.
Speaker:Nevertheless, it is apparently a terribly difficult thing for many
Speaker:white people to get their heads around.
Speaker:As they melodramatically insist that all lives matter.
Speaker:Like men's rights activists, they shout at the passing clouds of progress, unwilling
Speaker:or more likely, unable to understand, that the loss of privilege that equality
Speaker:requires is not a loss to mourn or fear.
Speaker:And yet they fear.
Speaker:And we get stupidites like this.
Speaker:I hope the English court gives Constable Snowflake the justice he deserves.
Speaker:Joe, just the tone of this, where he says, Well, white man, no you don't.
Speaker:And he says Surely it's beneath our dignity to have to explain this and saying
Speaker:things like, we get stupidites like this.
Speaker:This looking down on people, Joe, because they're trying to start with
Speaker:a basic understanding of, well, things should just apply equally, and why
Speaker:wouldn't this apply equally racially?
Speaker:And the dismissive, tone of it irks me and irked a lot of commentators.
Speaker:That, that sort of.
Speaker:Let me tell you, stupid racist white man, what's really going on here.
Speaker:Really condescending, I guess is the word I'm looking for.
Speaker:So, So, I mean, so black is not a race anymore than white is not a race.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:It is not a race either.
Speaker:But, yeah.
Speaker:I mean, the fact that she needed to point out skin colour, you
Speaker:know, had she gone for gender?
Speaker:Would that be a sexist remark, you stupid man?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, it's all so trivial.
Speaker:Like, at the end of the day, it's, it doesn't deserve any extra penalty
Speaker:in my mind because it's so trivial.
Speaker:Who cares?
Speaker:But if you're just looking at definitions But in the UK it is,
Speaker:it is, worthy of special penalties.
Speaker:Right, yes.
Speaker:Because they are cracking down on any form of offence.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And, you know, if you're wanting to stamp out Racism against black
Speaker:and brown people, and yellow people, and whatever colour people.
Speaker:Then, you're doing a disservice to the cause if you start nitpicking
Speaker:when it turns out the other way.
Speaker:It's, it's, it, it reduces the cause.
Speaker:I think just saying, look, you can't comment on somebody's
Speaker:colour of their skin.
Speaker:You can't comment on, what's between their legs.
Speaker:You know, those are just off the table, as far as insults are concerned.
Speaker:You can call them other things, but And you know, what we should
Speaker:be saying is, that's really poor form, in terms of social cohesion.
Speaker:You know, in most cases, completely doesn't warrant some
Speaker:sort of penalty of any sort.
Speaker:But we should all be turning our nose up at it and going, that's really poor form.
Speaker:Like, that's, that's not good.
Speaker:And, and Aye.
Speaker:I know someone who gets upset whenever the terms idiot or moron or retard are used.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Retard is common, but idiot or moron, because they have
Speaker:historically laden prejudices.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:and she gets very offended every time.
Speaker:Well, it used to be, Joe, it was an insult to call somebody spastic at one stage.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And then, you know, people suffering from various Um, disabilities would go,
Speaker:hang on a minute, we don't want that, that's actually really offensive to use
Speaker:that term, because that's me, and so, and, and you know, we, we as a society,
Speaker:if we hear that, should be going, come on, that's not right, cut that out, we
Speaker:don't want to hear that, but actually, you know, charging somebody with some
Speaker:extra penalty as a result of it, I don't think so, but, I'll move on.
Speaker:So, in Crikey.
Speaker:By the way, dear listener, there's a special on Crikey
Speaker:subscriptions, so look into that.
Speaker:Contact me if you want to know what the code is, if you're
Speaker:interested in a Crikey subscription.
Speaker:but they have a great comments section down below.
Speaker:So this particular article had like 165 comments underneath and one of the top
Speaker:ones was, was by this guy Joe F who wrote, referring to Michael Bradley's article.
Speaker:If I ever have to explain why my fellow progressives sometimes annoy me, I might
Speaker:just provide this article as evidence.
Speaker:There's always nuance.
Speaker:My students of Indian heritage were chatting with me the other day about
Speaker:how racist their parents are towards those with darker complexions.
Speaker:They think it's funny that the dominant attitude is that you
Speaker:have to be white to be racist.
Speaker:Maybe this article was meant to be sarcasm.
Speaker:That's a good point.
Speaker:Indians, racist towards other Indians.
Speaker:Oh, the caste system is awful in India.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:but, and this just seemed to be darker complexion.
Speaker:It's not even related to caste.
Speaker:So, is it racism?
Speaker:Because they're probably of the same, you know, but race is a social construct.
Speaker:It's so annoyingly, difficult.
Speaker:Another guy wrote here.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And this sort of nauseating, smug, do as we lecture you not as we show you
Speaker:hypocrisy from society's rich, privileged, tertiary educated, white knowledge class
Speaker:is the key reason societies not rich, not privileged, not tertiary educated, white
Speaker:working and underclasses vote for the destructive impostors like Donald Trump.
Speaker:Hell, rub my face in too much of this patronising double standard junk
Speaker:and I might vote for Trump just to wipe the condescending hypocritical
Speaker:smirk off this odious overpaid little ambulance chaser's gurning dial.
Speaker:So, colourful language, Joe, but I get the point about, the smug, condescending
Speaker:It's the basket of deplorables.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:It is the basket of deplorables, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:No, further on, I think the same guy responding after
Speaker:somebody then responded to him.
Speaker:He goes, But I'm a white, mostly straight, middle aged man, and Sam is a
Speaker:female lesbian of some Indian heritage.
Speaker:So I have patriarchal institutional power and she's an oppressed minority.
Speaker:So she gets a free pass from Mike for what is, whatever way you cut it, lousy
Speaker:behaviour with a racially abusive element.
Speaker:Let's put a statue up to it.
Speaker:Can you not grasp why people like me have no faith in privileged progressives,
Speaker:people like Bradley, and the elite civic systems, which are, admirably, and
Speaker:rightly supposed to be progressive too, and are flailing around for political
Speaker:alternatives that don't rub our faces in partisan driven double standards.
Speaker:and, yeah.
Speaker:Oh, and there was another argument that went running
Speaker:through this comments section.
Speaker:people were referring to the dictionary definition, which was basically exhibiting
Speaker:prejudice against another person or group because of their Based on their skills?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Um, and these people were saying, Well, you just You know, the
Speaker:dictionary definition doesn't matter.
Speaker:It is the legal definition that matters.
Speaker:It is what groups like the Human Rights Commission use.
Speaker:You're just using an unsophisticated, amateurish understanding of
Speaker:racism, and that's not what it is.
Speaker:And this person's saying, well, a dictionary is describing what
Speaker:the understood use of a term is.
Speaker:It's not It's, it's descriptive, it's not prescriptive, it's not telling
Speaker:people what racism should mean.
Speaker:It's saying what people understand racism to be, and and these people
Speaker:are just being dismissed in these comments as just dumb hicks for
Speaker:relying on a dictionary definition.
Speaker:And it just gets back to my original point at the beginning of the spiel, which
Speaker:is, People have a simple understanding of what racism is, basic prejudice
Speaker:based on skin colour, and in those additional requirements of institutional
Speaker:power are handy if you're wanting to impose penalties on people because
Speaker:you really want something substantive if you're going to impose a penalty.
Speaker:And I think what's happening is people in the business of of arguing against racism.
Speaker:They really concentrate a lot on unintended racism that permeates through
Speaker:systemic power that we don't even see.
Speaker:And I get that, you know, you would want to emphasize that.
Speaker:You shouldn't need it.
Speaker:Actually, I've got a summation here and then once I finish
Speaker:this, I'll go on to the comments.
Speaker:So here's, here's my summation.
Speaker:Discriminating against people based on an inherent characteristic is unfair.
Speaker:Racist acts can be systemic or or can be individual.
Speaker:Doing it systemically or ad hoc, both are unfair.
Speaker:The racist may be powerful or not.
Speaker:In either case, the act is racism.
Speaker:Defining racism as needing a power component is useful when defining
Speaker:aggravating circumstances where you need to find serious conduct,
Speaker:not just trivial, in order to justify a greater legal penalty.
Speaker:It might also be useful for the Human Rights Commission, which would
Speaker:want to disregard trivial matters.
Speaker:But that is different to everyday discourse about what constitutes
Speaker:inappropriate behaviour.
Speaker:Why would you want to give a free pass to some racist behaviour if
Speaker:you are trying to discourage it?
Speaker:By all means, highlight systemic covert racism and highlight power imbalances,
Speaker:but don't insert them as necessary elements in a broader, non legal context.
Speaker:Elites are lecturing to people that Kerr's racism is not so
Speaker:bad because of technicalities.
Speaker:People might excuse it because of triviality, but they won't accept
Speaker:the technicalities that appear to a.
Speaker:breach the principle that the law should apply equally to everyone, and b.
Speaker:ascribe institutional power and privilege to working class white people
Speaker:who correctly see themselves as not enjoying any such privileges, and c.
Speaker:ignore evidence that some members of minority groups enjoy enormous
Speaker:privilege in excess of the so called majority privilege class.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:There's a rant, right?
Speaker:What's in the chat room?
Speaker:Joe let's see what lies there.
Speaker:Good evening.
Speaker:Whatley says, conveniently refined to suit woke ideology.
Speaker:Alison says, I presume she was affected by alcohol.
Speaker:Is, didn't she throw up in the taxi?
Speaker:So whatever she said.
Speaker:So the cop was drunk talk anyway.
Speaker:Yes, Ian Whatley says Redhead's a fair game for mockery, for some unknown reason.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:The reason is, Whatley, is because gingers have no soul.
Speaker:And therefore can't be insulted.
Speaker:Have no soul?
Speaker:Where does that come from?
Speaker:Have no soul.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Do you not know this?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Rangers have got no soul.
Speaker:Oh, there we go.
Speaker:Are you a redhead, Wattley, by any chance?
Speaker:You're often quite angry.
Speaker:You're angry enough, Wattley, to be a redhead.
Speaker:Might explain something.
Speaker:I'm a ginger.
Speaker:I'm just bald, but True.
Speaker:Yeah, you are that sort of gingery colour, yeah.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:As Tim Mitchin says, only a ginger can call another ginger ginger.
Speaker:Did he say that?
Speaker:Have you not heard his song Prejudice?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:So, he had a song comparing things that went together, and one of the lines
Speaker:he had written with an Australian view of a certain word that begins with the
Speaker:letter N, and said he hadn't realised the strength of feeling it engendered
Speaker:in America, and was called out on it.
Speaker:And so he went off and wrote this song called Prejudice.
Speaker:And I think you need to go and listen to the song.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Prejudice by Tim Tim Minchin.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:By the way, Anthony Mundine, he didn't think it was, racism when
Speaker:Ezra Mann was called a monkey.
Speaker:And he said that, I mean, it ain't racism when two brothers are brown or
Speaker:blackfellas, you can slur each other.
Speaker:You can call them a Black C or a this and a that.
Speaker:That's what they are.
Speaker:It's like African American and another African American
Speaker:calling each other the N word.
Speaker:And he says, I think they ought to toughen up.
Speaker:It's not racism.
Speaker:Ah, there we go.
Speaker:What else have we got here?
Speaker:Alright, that's the racism and our sporting stars providing
Speaker:some food for thought there.
Speaker:You 8.
Speaker:45, Joe.
Speaker:15 minutes left.
Speaker:let's do, there's been an ASEAN conference.
Speaker:The Malaysian PM talking about China.
Speaker:he despaired at the rising tide of China phobia.
Speaker:And, he said, the international community was eager to see a return to
Speaker:friendlier ties between the US and China.
Speaker:I sense that some countries just cannot accept the fact that you
Speaker:have another superpower emerging.
Speaker:I don't have that problem.
Speaker:He says force is being used by the United States in their foreign
Speaker:policy more than any other country for the right and wrong reasons.
Speaker:And most often, in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, the
Speaker:consensus is for the wrong reasons.
Speaker:And,
Speaker:that was him.
Speaker:Let me just see.
Speaker:Ah, Keating's had a go at Penny Wong again about foreign relations.
Speaker:I think, Joe, let's talk about nuclear for the last 15 minutes.
Speaker:So, ah, is Di Straits in the chat room?
Speaker:Because he's always been on about these small nuclear reactors.
Speaker:Oh, SMRs, yes.
Speaker:Yeah, that don't exist.
Speaker:And so, so Dutton was, has been criticised that in the Dunkley by
Speaker:election the Liberals had no policy, and he's basically, he and his, you know,
Speaker:shadow energy minister have announced that the Liberals are all in on, on
Speaker:nuclear power, both small and large, and in saying that, Australia could have
Speaker:nuclear power operating within ten years.
Speaker:Basically they want to build it on the same site as the coal fired plant.
Speaker:Yes, yes, and every expert put out by, by any media organisation is just
Speaker:calling BS on the idea and saying that we have zero experience when it
Speaker:comes to operating nuclear facilities.
Speaker:Even if you looked at countries that do it all the time, they couldn't get a nuclear
Speaker:reactor up and running in 10 years.
Speaker:And, and we'd be starting from scratch.
Speaker:We've got state governments who are against it.
Speaker:And so just the, we've got no regulations to deal with it.
Speaker:They would all have to be drafted up.
Speaker:And no company is going to stump up the investment for this.
Speaker:Let's just say Dutton got in at the next election because they'd be thinking, well,
Speaker:in three years time, Dutton could be gone.
Speaker:A Labor government comes in and cancels the whole project.
Speaker:So no nuclear finance group operator would enter this with any certainty.
Speaker:that the project will continue, through successive different governments.
Speaker:It's complete pie in the sky.
Speaker:Add to that, it's incredibly expensive and, it just makes no sense at any level
Speaker:whatsoever, except if you're wanting to keep fossil fuels going as long as
Speaker:possible, because you would be arguing we don't have to do anything Because
Speaker:we'll just wait until all this great nuclear comes on board in 10 years.
Speaker:And the other option would be, the sort of, the big end of town gets
Speaker:to run these nuclear facilities and presumably enjoy government subsidies
Speaker:to run them and exercise power.
Speaker:One of the things about having all this rooftop solar is it's taking power
Speaker:generation out of centralised businesses And distributing the power so that
Speaker:business has less, political power than it did previously, because, every mum
Speaker:and dad has a sort of a stake in it.
Speaker:So, Joe, any thoughts on, on the just pathetic nature of
Speaker:Peter Dutton and this proposal?
Speaker:it's, it's obvious that, he's been Advised by the fossil fuel industry.
Speaker:It's the only reason, that he could be putting this forward.
Speaker:as far as I know, the only reason you'd want to build nuclear reactors
Speaker:is to enrich uranium for weapons.
Speaker:in this day and age, you're, you know, it was a great technology back in the 1960s.
Speaker:we have new technologies that are better.
Speaker:They're talking about, the UK, which is nowhere near as blessed as us, are having
Speaker:problems getting nuclear on stream.
Speaker:and the long term is going to be renewables, pumped hydro, and peaking gas.
Speaker:so we will be using gas for, the foreseeable future, but only
Speaker:as a backup in the rare cases where we don't have enough.
Speaker:Wind and sun, and stored energy in terms of pumped hydro and whatever
Speaker:battery technologies come along.
Speaker:Hmm, you know, it might be a completely different scenario in other countries,
Speaker:but for Australia with our enormous landmass, our plentiful sun and wind, it
Speaker:makes absolutely no sense economically for us to go down this pathway.
Speaker:And, you know, it's again pandering to that sort of outer regional
Speaker:electorate, non university educated, culture war sort of argument.
Speaker:But the Liberals need to win back the Teal seats that, They've
Speaker:lost and they're not going to do it with a nuclear power policy.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:They're just going to be in the wilderness forever if they keep doing this.
Speaker:so I think they just You know, maybe they're hoping to get the
Speaker:coal mining seats with a dream of that they're going to set up nuclear
Speaker:power instead and these people are going to get employment and that.
Speaker:I think you'd be much better off with a what other industry can we
Speaker:build up for the miners to move into?
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:and preferably out in remote areas so that, because a lot of these towns are
Speaker:going mining is our lifeblood and if the miners move away, what do we do?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah, but, you know, there's also a lot of these towns are getting gentrified as
Speaker:well with people sort of tree huggers sort of moving out of Sydney and other areas
Speaker:into there, and, you know, how many people are actually employed in these mines
Speaker:sometimes is another question, so Well, the WA mines are more and more automated.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:You know, all the trucks are run automatically from
Speaker:a control centre in Perth.
Speaker:And where you've got camps, fly in, fly out workers, staying at
Speaker:campsites, you know, not a lot of action might happen in a lot of
Speaker:communities as a result of the mine, so.
Speaker:Yeah, insanely stupid and, that's the best they can do.
Speaker:The calibre of thinking in the Liberal Party is just appalling.
Speaker:They're really just moving, they're just trying to move into the Nationals
Speaker:territory, really, aren't they?
Speaker:They're sort of geographically, heading into that sort of territory,
Speaker:and just leaving the cities to the Labor and, and the Greens.
Speaker:I was going to say, do the farmers even want nuclear?
Speaker:No, I wouldn't think they would.
Speaker:Like, I was, when I was in Japan, my wife and I were walking down the street
Speaker:and all of a sudden there was this crowd of people and they were looking at this
Speaker:department store window and everyone was just stopped looking at it and we
Speaker:couldn't work out what was going on.
Speaker:And, and then, like the Japanese are always very still and very, well, they're
Speaker:just always polite and Undemonstrative.
Speaker:And it was kind of like everyone was kind of silent and then
Speaker:they all just disappeared.
Speaker:And we just sort of tried to grab somebody and said, what was all that about?
Speaker:And it turned out it was a minute's silence marking the, the disaster of,
Speaker:of the most recent, nuclear, you know, where that tsunami had caused the damage
Speaker:to the nuclear plant and, and all that.
Speaker:So they were sort of commemorating it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think that was it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It was happening while we were in Japan at the time, so, yeah.
Speaker:Crazy.
Speaker:But again, there's been a knee jerk response to shut down nuclear power
Speaker:stations that are effective and are running, which I think, you know,
Speaker:Germany has shut down a whole bunch of nuclear power stations and had
Speaker:to turn back on coal generation.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:So, so that's a bad thing.
Speaker:You know, shutting down existing nuclear reactors isn't
Speaker:necessarily the best outcome.
Speaker:But certainly building new ones is, is ridiculous.
Speaker:and Fukushima just goes to show that the amount of devastation, the amount
Speaker:of damage to the area and the impact that that has had If that had been a
Speaker:coal fired power station, the, the, radioactive tailings, the poisonous ash
Speaker:would've been spread across a wide area.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:So, it, it's not been great.
Speaker:But realistically, in terms of the environmental damage, the
Speaker:disaster, given the size of that accident, it's been incredibly low.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm, , so the impact has been negligible.
Speaker:they are relatively safe technology.
Speaker:So it's not nuclear is bad, nuclear is the devil, it's just we have better
Speaker:alternatives and why are we going down this antiquated technology path?
Speaker:Yeah, yep.
Speaker:Right, so we've nearly come up to an hour.
Speaker:I could go on to other things but, I think I might make this a, a briefer one.
Speaker:let me see.
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:Yes, he is a redhead, apparently.
Speaker:He is, he's a ragger.
Speaker:There we go, that explains a lot, so, yeah.
Speaker:and he also says Nationals don't listen to farmers, just the corporations.
Speaker:Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker:Right, dear listener, don't know what happened to Scott.
Speaker:Hopefully he's okay, maybe he's just come down with a bit of
Speaker:a bug or something like that.
Speaker:So, we'll see him next week, I would assume.
Speaker:wish me well as I undergo some more wonderful anesthetic tomorrow
Speaker:morning and, I'll be hobbling around with a stocking on my leg.
Speaker:But, yeah, see how that goes.
Speaker:Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker:We'll talk to you next week.
Speaker:Bye for now.
Speaker:And it's a good night for him.
