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Episode 405 - More Ridiculous and Embarrassing Ideas.

In this episode we discuss:

  • 5 Days of Grief leave
  • Comparisons to the Republic vote
  • Frank Brennan
  • Remember Liam
  • Alasdair Macintyre
  • Cam Bagged Me
  • Quick counterpoints
  • Pitiful
  • Guy Rundle on The Voice
  • Treaty
  • Boarding School Options
  • Essential Poll on Gaza

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Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcript
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Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,

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evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.

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But today, we observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that

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gather together atop a small mound to watch, question, and discuss the

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current events of their city, their country, and their world at large.

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Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

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Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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Welcome back, dear listener.

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Episode 405, the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast.

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I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist, coming in loud and clear, hopefully, from

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the leafy western suburbs of Brisbane, upper middle class electorate of Ryan.

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In the tropics, we have Scott in Mackay.

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How are you, Scott?

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Oops.

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Good thanks, Trevor.

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G'day, Joe.

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G'day, listeners.

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How are you all?

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Scott is sporting a suntan from a recent trip to Airlie Beach and

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scuba diving, living the dream.

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And freezing his ass off in Devon is Joe the Tech Guy.

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And morning all.

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Yes.

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So we're here, all corners of the globe, for another episode of the

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Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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We will talk about news and politics and sex and religion

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and other things that come up.

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If you're in the chat room, say hello, there's already five people there

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watching, so, make your comments, we'll try and incorporate them if we

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can Watley's there, and Don is there.

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There's must be one other person there.

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Say hello, whoever you are.

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Anyway.

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Right, what's on the agenda?

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You know, a lot had happened, I thought.

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Since the last episode, I was sort of scratching around for material, but

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we'll talk again, a bit of a debrief about The Voice and a bit more about

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Israel and Gaza, and that's kind of the topics we're going to be covering.

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We'll get to My friend Cam Riley bagged me on his podcast, The Bullshit Filter, so,

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he said my arguments were ridiculous and embarrassing and shame on me and everybody

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else who voted no, so we'll get to that, but ah, we'll work our way up to that.

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I actually think I actually, for the first time forever, I think

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I actually agree with Cam Riley.

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So anyway, we will come to that one and yeah, so.

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Gentlemen, things have happened.

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Queensland Government announced for people who are feeling the grief

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from the referendum result in the public service of Queensland, they

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can apply for five days grief leave.

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What do you think of that?

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That's just going to get abused.

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Yeah, exactly.

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That was my immediate thought was, what checking are they doing?

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Cause that sounds like a good excuse for five days off.

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Five days off, exactly.

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You know, you just got to go and say, I'm feeling very grieved about this.

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You know, I cannot believe my brethren, Indigenous brothers and sisters have

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been denied this once in a lifetime opportunity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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I feel embarrassed that it, you know, because Queensland had a 63 percent

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of the vote, sorry, the where was it, Queensland was 62 percent of the

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vote was no and that type of thing.

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I'm very embarrassed.

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I'm, I'm ashamed to be a Queenslander and they'll be able to, you know,

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bung it on like that and get their, get their five days off.

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The hell?

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It's a joke.

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Actually, Queensland was higher than that.

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You're looking at the referendum result in my notes for the Republic.

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Scott, I think.

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Oh, okay, gotcha.

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Which we'll get to.

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Which is one of the sort of things that has come up as a topic is that

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the result from this referendum, to a large extent, copied the result

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from the referendum for the Republic.

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So, in the notes I've got here overall, the vote for the Republic was defeated.

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54 percent 54.

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87 said no.

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In terms of states, Queensland was the highest in that case in

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saying no to a republic at 62%.

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No states actually are past it.

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Victoria was the closest, again.

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The Australian Capital Territory actually was in favour of the

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republic quite strongly, which again matched our recent referendum.

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And interestingly, according to Wikipedia the highest yes votes for

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the Republic referendum came from inner metropolitan areas, again, similar to...

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That doesn't surprise me.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So, votes in opposition to the proposed Republican vote...

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Came predominantly from rural and remote divisions, as well

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as many outer suburban areas.

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So, on those statistics, it kind of, the results matched up.

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And...

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And that's 30 years ago, isn't it?

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Yeah, it's...

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When was that?

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25 years ago or something, or was it 1999, wasn't it?

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Not sure when that was.

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Ah, okay.

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Hmm.

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So...

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Father Frank Brennan.

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Who we've talked about over the years on various things.

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He's the Jesuit priest who gets involved in a lot of stuff.

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And he was...

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Leading art socialist.

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Yeah.

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Also, just for context, he's the one who also said that if they

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brought in a rule that if you hear about child abuse in the Confession,

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you must alert the authorities.

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And he said that he wouldn't.

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Sorry.

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Despite that, okay.

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He still gets a run on all sorts of government bodies.

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He's definitely been one in favor of the Yes vote.

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And he was on the Karma Langton panel that was behind the report that was done.

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And he's been an advocate for indigenous rights for many years, and definitely

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a man on the side of the Yes vote, and not only Jesuit priest, but.

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Lawyer as well.

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So, he, he was basically saying that any referendum that does not get

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bipartisan support is doomed to fail.

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And I'm just going to play, let me just find this clip now that

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I've said that I think he's right.

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Yeah bipartisan support.

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Let's Let's see what he had to say about needing bipartisan support.

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We can all understand that Aboriginal leaders, with the publication of this

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letter, are very angry and upset.

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But I think we have to accept that it's simply a given.

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Doesn't matter what the topic of the referendum.

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If you do not have bipartisanship, there's just no point.

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draw all sorts of other conclusions might not all be altogether warranted.

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We are, and I think that what's happened is they've played

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roulette with the country's soul.

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We're way back, look at that letter that's come out from

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the Aboriginal leaders today.

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The anger, the disappointment, the despair.

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These are the people we've got to be able to work with well and constructively and

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in trust in order to close those gaps.

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And so, so much of what Noel Pearson detected as love in the air during

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the last week or two of the campaign.

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I'm just pausing there.

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I noted a little bit of anti Noel Pearson in that sentiment there.

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But I'll just finish it off.

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Australians have voted as they've always voted in referendums.

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They've basically said that we need to be sure that either there is a crisis

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or that there is consensus among our politicians and the great tragedy of

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this Kieran is that in the end All you've got to do is listen to people

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at the family barbecue nowadays.

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I mean, those who blame Albanese are those who are the Tory voters.

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Those who blame Dutton are those who are the Labor voters.

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And that sort of partisanship should never come into a referendum.

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Once it does, the referendum is lost completely.

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So he's kind of making the argument that it doesn't matter what the topic,

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if there's not bipartisan support, then you kind of go and get the result.

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That you got on the Republican vote and on the voice vote.

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And so maybe people who are reading the voice vote as a racist response

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are wrong, maybe, because maybe this is just what happens when you

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don't get a bipartisan support.

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What do you think of that, guys?

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Why would you want a nuanced answer?

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Where you can just blame racism?

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What do you reckon of that, Scott?

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I think he's, I think he's right.

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You know, it's It's one of those things, I blame them both for the failure of

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the referendum because Albanese I think would have been quite at liberty to sit

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down with the Indigenous leadership and say to them, it's going to be defeated.

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There's no point us throwing good money after bad.

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It's going to be defeated.

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So I just think that they should walk away from it.

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Then on top of all that, then.

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God, what's his name, Dutton was, he was very quick off the marks to say no.

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And everything he was asking for was asking for design of the voice and

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all that sort of stuff that was going to be up to Parliament to decide.

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Now, if that was where, if that was where it was going, then he, then

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Albanese, he could have actually said to the Indigenous leadership, okay,

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you want it to go ahead, but I think we've got to hold off for six months.

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And we've got to, we've got to have this hashed out with the opposition

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and that sort of stuff so that we can get them on board for what

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the design's going to look like.

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And then you've got something that you could take to the public and say,

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if you vote yes, this is what, this is the legislation we're going to put

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before parliament to get it approved.

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Then you would have had something that would have been a little

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less wishy washy than what we had.

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Because it was very much opening up the air and that sort of stuff where

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you said, well, Parliament will design it, which I had no problem with.

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But, a lot of people out there did have a problem with it.

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They didn't trust the politicians to get it right.

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So, as a result, I think that the smartest thing for them to do would

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have been actually turn around and say, Okay, this is what we're going to put to

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Parliament, this is what we'll get voted on, and this is what we're going to do.

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But, you know, it's just one of those things, like the National Party was

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first off the ranks and that sort of stuff when they actually opposed it,

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before anything had been decided on it, before there'd been even, there'd

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even been some talk about the question.

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Well, let me play a little bit from Frank Brennan again about the process,

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because he makes the argument that the wording had been determined before

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the Parliamentary Committee and the Opposition had a chance to be involved.

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And he was also critical that there wasn't a constitutional

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commission looking at this.

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And so let me play him on the fluid process and let me play that now.

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So here we go about the process.

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Was that the foundational problem here that some of the recommendations, some of

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the leadership went too far to get that agreement across the political divide?

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It's been the problem all along, Kieran, because what we've had is the Liberal

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and National parties have been clear that they're on the table in relation

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to minimal symbolic change, as the Aboriginal leaders would call it.

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The Aboriginal leaders said they wanted something substantive.

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Where things started to go wrong in terms of process was in 2012 when

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Julia Gillard set up her expert panel where they recommended a

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racial non discrimination clause.

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Now that was something substantive, but it could never fly.

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It was never subjected to the open, transparent scrutiny where

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you get all the lawyers and all the politicians at the table.

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The same thing happened with this where it was said That yes, Aboriginal

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people gathered at Uluru and they called it a Constitutional Convention.

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But there'd never been anything like a Constitutional Convention which was open

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to the other 97 percent of Australians.

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There's been nothing in place since 2017.

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And so the process was defective from the beginning.

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And what we then had was after the Garma Festival, as you know, that

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there was no move made by the Prime Minister to set up a process And by

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the time there was a parliamentary committee where the coalition could

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come to the table, it was over.

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Game set and match.

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The words were set in concrete.

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So sadly, bipartisanship by means of process was never there,

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and so it was always doomed.

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That was an interesting explanation, I think, that there should have

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been a process that involved a constitutional commission involving

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everybody, not only the 3%, but the 97%.

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And that, yeah, I agreed with, I agreed with him because, you know, it's one

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of those things that every, you know, we had a constitutional convention over

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the republic, it failed, but we had it.

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You know, we've had constitutional conventions whenever there's been

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talk of changing the constitution.

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Now, only seven of them got up, didn't they?

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Something like that, of the referendums that we've had?

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Not sure.

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Seven of them, there's only seven or eight of them are passed or something like that.

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But the one thing they all had in common was there was a, there

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was a constitutional convention.

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There wasn't in this case.

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And you know, he was right there.

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He was saying that, you know, you've got 3 percent of the

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population got together at Uluru.

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The other 97 percent weren't involved.

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And Albanese did come to it and that sort of stuff and say, well,

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you know, this is, you know, how he said, well, this is, this is the

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proposed wording that I put forward.

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Bounced around the cabinet table and that sort of stuff.

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Then he said, well, this is the question, you know, and without but

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also sorry, go ahead the Uluru thing.

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So there was the freedom of information document that contains the statement

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from the heart and that's showing one side of the negotiation table, isn't it?

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It's showing the position of the indigenous people.

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This, this was a wish list.

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And, and I don't think that they honestly expected they were gonna

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get all of those concessions.

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But it's been held up as this is what is gonna happen if you

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get the Constitution through.

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Mm-hmm.

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, I, I think that was, that was the scare tactic anyway.

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And we never had the, what's the other side want, you know, and as was

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said, the sitting around the table hashing it out and the yes, this is

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something that we can all get behind.

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So, Frank Brennan makes this, Frank Brennan's making the argument that

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it's crucial to get bipartisan support, you're doomed without it.

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And what they essentially did was take the Uluru Statement, where 3 percent

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of people considered it, and quickly wrapped up a question and, and put it

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forward to the opposition without any you know, the question was done and dusted

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without any negotiation at that point.

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And so really the chances of bipartisan support were cruelled

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by an inadequate process.

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And that then cruelled the whole thing, the way it was done.

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So it's sort of quite scathing in that sense of the inadequate

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process that was done.

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But the Uluru Statement also contained a treaty.

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So it was only part of that, so it wasn't...

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It would have satisfied nobody, I think.

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Hmm.

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Anyway, let's get on with his final comments about the way forward.

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I think there's goodwill and there's general agreement in the community, and

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on both sides of the political aisle in Canberra, that something more has to

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be done to close the gap, particularly on those ghastly health statistics.

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Well, guess what?

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We've got a coalition of Peaks, and there was an agreement which was

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negotiated with the Morrison government with that Coalition of Peaks, about

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which we've heard next to nothing while the referendum's been playing out.

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So let's get that Coalition of Peaks working properly.

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And in terms of health issues, you've got an enormous operation there with

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NACCHO, which represents all the community based Aboriginal health organisations.

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all 145 of them.

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They've got splendid officers there in Constitution Avenue in Canberra.

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They're headed up by a very competent Aboriginal civil

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servant there in Patricia Turner.

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And why isn't it that they're not being listened to more closely?

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I mean, during the referendum campaign, we had the Minister of Health out

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there even writing an article saying he needs to listen to a voice.

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But there was no mention of NACCHO or the Coalition of Peaks.

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So, now that the referendum is behind us, I think there's a need for the real

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work to be done so that NACCHO can be assured that they are right there at the

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table with the parliamentary processes and with the Minister and that the

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Coalition of Peaks is now taken seriously.

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Even though it was a creation at the time of the Morrison government, let's

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get past the party politics and let's start doing something constructive

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in order to close those gaps.

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Sounds very sensible to me.

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There was a question about the treaty and what it actually is.

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My understanding is it's a formal document between the government of

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Australia and the indigenous people recognizing that the land was stolen.

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And formalizing any form of reparation.

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So, it's basically, we understand that this land wasn't historically

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peopled by white people, and here is some form of compensation.

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for what was done in the past.

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And it sets a, it resets a a starting point, I think.

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It says that, yeah, we didn't come and buy this land properly in the first place.

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Here's our post hoc purchase of property.

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Hmm.

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Is that possible?

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Is it possible to find an appropriate Vendor 250 years later?

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Well, that's a question.

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And who are they going to negotiate with?

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Because they don't have a central tribal chief, do they?

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Well, that was the point of the voice.

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Yeah, I know, exactly.

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And you know, they don't have anyone that they can negotiate with.

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And...

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I think the voice would have given them something that they could have

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left behind that the government could have negotiated with.

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But as a result of not having that, you still can have a voice, you still

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can have a government appointed body, it's just not in the constitution.

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Yeah, you could do that.

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It's one of those things, like Albanese has already said that he's not going

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to, he's not going to legislate it.

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So, you know, Atsik for all its faults and all that sort of stuff, it was

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a representative body of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

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Now, you know, you can certainly have a look at the leadership

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of Atsik and that sort of stuff.

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You can throw a hell of a lot of stones at them, because Jesus, did they

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deserve to have stones thrown at them?

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But the actual body itself.

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Didn't work, didn't work too badly.

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Didn't do a bad job of looking after them.

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So, you know, at least it would have, at least that would be something that

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the government could negotiate with.

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Because the, the whole idea of a treaty is that you, you've got two warring, got

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two warring sides that are sit down at a table and they negotiate with each other.

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And you know, you, you, each of you gives up something so that you end up

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with some sort of negotiated settlement.

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But, you know, there's no one, there's no one left for us to negotiate with, so,

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you know, 3 percent of the population?

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Yeah, okay, so 3 percent of the population around the table talking to each of them?

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I don't think you're going to get anything sensible out of that.

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No, exactly, so we do need somebody who is elected by them

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to represent them in negotiations.

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For sure, which is something the voice would have given them.

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You know, it would have given them some, they would have been, they would

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have had someone that they would have elected and that sort of stuff, out

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of their own 3 percent that they could have put up and said, these are the

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lot we want you to negotiate with.

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But, you know, that's now dead and buried, so I don't know what

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the hell they're going to do now.

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But again, it doesn't have to be dead and buried, it's dead

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and buried in the Constitution.

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Yeah, for sure, so Albanese could go and legislate it, if he really wanted to,

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but he's already said he's not going to.

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Are both of you guys kind of in favour of a treaty?

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Is that what I'm getting at?

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Not really.

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It's one of those things, I just think to myself, I'm trying to, I'm trying

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to be a little more sympathetic towards them, because living up here in Mackay,

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I've actually seen a, okay, you know, Bronwyn if you're listening and that

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sort of stuff, you can throw rocks at me and call me a racist if you want

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to, but I've seen a nicer side to the Indigenous people up here in Mackay

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than what I saw down in Rockhampton and you know, they are a hell of a nicer

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than what I saw down in Rockhampton.

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You know, I don't know if it's because they're mostly Torres what

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the story is, but they are not as abrasive and that type of thing as

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what they are down in Rockhampton.

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Anyway, that is, that's What I will say.

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So as a result that has opened my eyes a hell of a lot, and I have seen a different

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side of the argument living up here.

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So I am trying to open my mind to it.

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I'm not really in 100 percent in favor of it, but it is something that I am prepared

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to entertain with my mind and that type of thing, and then I'll think about it later.

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But you know my mate down the road who's Torres Strait Islander and that sort

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of stuff, he reckons that he reckons a treaty will be an absolute disaster,

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because it would be so divisive and that sort of stuff that could end up,

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you know, that with 97 percent of the population having to bow down to 3

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percent of the population and that's just never going to sit well with anyone.

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In the chat room, John asks, would a treaty be as divisive as a voice?

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What he says, it would be just as divisive.

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I think it might be a little bit more.

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I think it would be even worse.

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I think certainly the negotiation of a treaty would be.

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Because you've got the vast majority of people going, the past is

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the past, nothing to do with me.

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And 3 percent of people feeling wronged, historically.

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But I think at the end of the day, Nothing substantive is going to happen.

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Not, not talking about, we can do things about The Gap, absolutely, without having

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a treaty, but I think politically we will never advance until we have some

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form of treaty that recognises the past.

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Yeah, but see, you know, New Zealand, New Zealand only had to

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negotiate with one tribal group.

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You know, there was just that one tribal group that was the Maoris.

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So that was a hell of a lot simpler for them to negotiate

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with and that type of thing.

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That's why they got the Treaty of Waitangi.

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You know, it's, I don't know who the hell they're going to negotiate with over here.

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You know, because you've got several hundred tribes in Australia, don't you?

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Ah, let's talk about treaty in depth another time.

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There's so much involved.

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No, there is a shitload of stuff that is negotiated.

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Let's not get too sidetracked on that one, because that

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deserves six episodes on its own.

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The pros and cons of that.

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And the difficulties.

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So let's just move on a little bit from Treaty and let's talk about how

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do we think about moral dilemmas?

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Because this is a lead up to Cam Riley's bagging of me on his podcast.

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You telling Cam that he's wrong.

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Yes.

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That's it.

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So do we remember our discussion with Liam who came on and we

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were talking about the voice.

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It was a very civilized.

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Well conducted debate, I thought, where everybody got to have their say.

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We all walked away friends.

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So, if you recall, his priority was to take urgent, helpful action, as he

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perceived it, for Indigenous people, and I explained that my priority

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was sort of non racist, equal human rights, so that we were approaching

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it With different priorities, or a different premise, if you like.

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A different emphasis of a particular right that we were more concerned

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with because we just happened to.

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And that was a result of our life experience and cultural

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experiences and whatnot.

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So, in the field of rights, it is often the case that rights conflict,

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and you have to weigh up and decide Which right is more important at

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this particular point in time?

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I, I think the point is that you're both coming at it from a place of well

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meaning and not trying to harm somebody.

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Correct.

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We both had a, a moral position that was defensible and it was just weighing it up.

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And, you know, what I was doing was saying, well, bearing in mind all of

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these different facts, perhaps this voice isn't as helpful as you think it is or

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isn't as necessary as you think it is.

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And he would argue other things.

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So, sort of, being able to understand the moral premise that the other person

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was operating under was important.

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So, so we did that with Liam, and he did that with me, and we could

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compartmentalise our arguments and have a debate, each recognising

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the premise of the other.

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So I've got a book in front of me, Alasdair MacIntyre, After

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Virtue, and I want to sort of just give some different scenarios to

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demonstrate how this plays out.

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So, on the topic of war, for example, one position might be...

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A just war is one in which the good to be achieved outweighs the evils

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involved in waging the war, and in which a clear distinction can be made

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between combatants, whose lives are at stake, and innocent non combatants.

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But in a modern war, calculation of future escalation is never reliable, and no

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practically applicable distinction between combatants and non combatants can be made.

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Think in Gaza here.

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Therefore no modern war can be a just war.

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And we all now ought to be pacifists.

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That's one view of war.

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Another one might be, wars between the great powers are purely destructive,

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but wars waged to liberate oppressed groups, especially in the third

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world, are a necessary and therefore justified means for destroying

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the exploitative Domination, which stands between mankind and happiness.

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So, what you've got there in the first case is the principle

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of protecting innocent lives.

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That's the premise that is being highlighted.

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And in the second one, it's the principle of self determination, is the

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principle that the person is relying on.

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So two different ways of looking at war.

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Another example would be abortion.

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One way of looking at it would be, everyone has certain rights

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over his or her own person, including his or her own body.

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It follows from the nature of these rights that at the embryo is essentially

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part of the mother's body, the mother has a right to make her own uncoerced

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decision, uncoerced decision on whether she will have an abortion or not.

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Therefore abortion is morally permissible and ought to be allowed by law.

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That's one view.

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An alternative would be...

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Murder is wrong.

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Murder is taking of an innocent life.

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An embryo is an identifiable individual differing from a newborn infant

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only in being at an earlier stage on the long road to adult capacities.

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And if any life is innocent, that of an embryo is.

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If infanticide is murder, as it is, then abortion is murder.

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So abortion is not only morally wrong, but ought to be legally prohibited.

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So again...

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You've got the right to a bodily autonomy, first premise, versus

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universal right to life, second premise.

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Final example Justice demands that every citizen should enjoy, so far

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as is possible, an equal opportunity to develop his or her talents

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and his or her other potentials.

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But prerequisites for the provision of such equal opportunity include

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the provision of equal access to healthcare and to education.

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Therefore, justice requires the governmental provision of

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health and educational services, financed out of taxation.

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It also requires that no citizen should be able to buy an

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unfair share of such services.

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This in turn requires the abolition of private schools

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and private medical practice.

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That's one view of health and education.

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Another one would be, everyone has a right to incur such and only such obligations.

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As he or she wishes.

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To be free to make such and only such contracts as he or she desires.

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And to determine his or her own free choices.

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Physicians must therefore be free to practice on such terms as they desire.

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And patients must be free to choose among physicians.

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Teachers must be free to teach on such terms as they choose.

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And pupils and parents to go where they wish for education.

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It goes on.

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So the first one is a premise of equality in terms of education, health.

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The second is the premise of liberty.

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So when we're looking at moral questions, as we did with Liam on the voice, it

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was, what's the moral premise that you're really holding onto close here?

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And let's recognise that.

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So, so let me just go on a little bit here.

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Anybody want to argue with any of that at this point, or just, I'll

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just keep going, it's all good, or, say if I, no, keep going, yep, okay.

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So, every one of the arguments is logically valid, or can be easily

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expanded so as to be made so.

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The conclusions do indeed follow from their premises.

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But the rival premises are such that we possess no rational way of weighing

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the claims of one against the other.

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So, so what's that saying is, When it boils down to it, your main

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premise is equality, my main premise is liberty, and it's very difficult

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or impossible for us to say, well, liberty always outweighs equality or

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equality always outweighs liberty.

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We don't have, in our society, an overarching anchor that

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determines which of those wins.

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So, it goes on.

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For each premise employs some quite different normative or evaluative concept

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from the others, so that the claims made upon us are quite different kinds.

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It is precisely because there is in our society no established way of deciding

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between these claims, that moral argument appears to be necessarily interminable.

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From our rival conclusions we can argue back to our rival premises.

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But when we do arrive at our premises, argument ceases and the invocation of

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one premise against another becomes a matter of pure assertion and counter

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assertion, hence perhaps the slightly shrill tone of so much moral debate.

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I think that's right in that on the voice, people had different

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premises that they were relying on, and when people couldn't agree...

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Because nobody was prepared to say their premise is less important

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than the other person's premise.

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We're just left with people shouting at each other, shrilly, about the matter.

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I think that's where we got to with the debate.

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Jonathan Haidt explores that in The Righteous Mind.

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Talking about the mindsets, the differences in thought process behind...

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Conservatives and progressives.

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Mm-hmm.

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And saying it, it's very much which moral values we hold most closely.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, and what we associate with disgust.

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And so conservatives tend to be more think, whereas progressives

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tend to be more individualistic.

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Libertarians tend, probably conservatives, libertarians are more in the conservative

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camp now, which are the big individuals.

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Yeah.

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But it was more the, the left-leaning are much more about personal rights.

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So the, the right to bond the autonomy Yes.

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And the right to sexual freedom.

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Mm-hmm.

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, whereas the conservatives are much more, society says that's a bad

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thing, therefore it's a bad thing.

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But I'm saying that yeah left wingers have moral disgust around food

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hygiene, so they're much more picky about what they eat, for want of a

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better term whereas the conservatives are much more around sexual hygiene.

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Right.

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Yep.

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So, so, it's, it's taking, effectively...

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, there was a series of questions which were not politically aligned.

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And depending on how people answered these questions, you could

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tell their political alignment.

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Yes, I'm sure you could.

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Yeah.

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Some questions that seemed divorced from politics, but were indicative Yes.

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Of a political viewpoint.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So it would help if we had an overarching premise back in the

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good old days of religious belief.

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We did, you know, God's Law.

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That was it.

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That was the overarching moral, you know, what did God, what does God want?

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Okay, that's moral.

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That's the winning moral premise.

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No, no, no, what does my priest say that God wants?

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Yeah, exactly.

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But Alistair McIntyre

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says in After Virtue that the post enlightenment, we don't have the

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benefit of the religious sort of moral anchor to, to determine which

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of these moral premises wins out.

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And MacIntyre blames enlightenment for lack of morals.

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He says the enlightenment rejected the idea of a virtuous life through

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fulfilling your telos or purpose in life.

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Enlightenment imagined humans as agents of their own free will, guided only

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by their inner reasons or desires.

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So Aristotle could distinguish between what we are and what we ought to be,

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and this provided a moral anchor.

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But post Enlightenment philosophers have no moral anchor, no point

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of reference against which to adjudicate competing moral claims.

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And without such a reference point, moral arguments become interminable

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and pointless, as we've seen.

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And there's still the Golden Rule, I think.

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Do unto others is...

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Don't do to others?

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Well, the inverse of that.

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Don't do to others what you wouldn't have done to you.

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Yeah, how does that help in the voice debate?

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I, I think in the voice debate, you say, do these people have a voice?

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Do they have an equal voice to everybody else?

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Do they have the same right to be heard that I have?

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Oh, sorry, the same ability to be heard.

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And I would argue that corporations have a bigger ability to be heard

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than either I or the Aboriginals.

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I don't know that the Golden Rule helps in all situations, I don't

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know, but that's gonna get us there.

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But here's my anchor for you.

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I think we're social, cooperative creatures.

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We need a cooperative, communal society that works together to advance

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our little beehive here on Earth.

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Judge competing moral claims against this imperative.

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That's what I say.

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A little bit of Aristotelian, Aristotelian Telus type thing happening there.

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And I say that splintering off into identity groups is anathema

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to that project and constitutional approval of racial profiling will

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do serious damage to our beehive.

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So, that's a little lead in to...

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Cam Riley bagging me on his podcast.

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Let me find the the clip on that and I'll play it for you

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and we'll get into that one.

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Here we go.

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This is Cam on his podcast, The Bullshit Filter.

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Here we go.

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People just made a horrendous decision and, you know, as I said,

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I'm just extremely embarrassed and ashamed and appalled.

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By my fellow Countrymen and women this week.

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I'm disgusted and quite frankly, I can't wait for AI to take over.

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As I said, I think the human race is done it on.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Stick a fork in us.

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We're done.

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This is as good as we can do that.

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Australians listening who voted no.

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You probably don't if you listen to this show, although I know you know.

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My friend Trevor, who hosts the Iron Fist podcast, who's been a guest host

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on this many times, told me that he was voting no for reasons that made

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absolutely no sense, and he's usually very progressive, and I went out to lunch

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with him, listened to his arguments, they made completely no sense to me, and

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you know, I'm embarrassed for Trevor.

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I'm embarrassed for Trevor, I'm embarrassed for anyone who

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voted no so there you have it.

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There you go.

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He's embarrassed for me.

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Same.

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What do we take away from that?

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Well, maybe he's right.

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Maybe my arguments are ridiculous and make no sense whatsoever.

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But I've received enough unsolicited positive feedback to feel confident

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that my arguments have some merit.

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Scott, even though you started the episode by saying, I think I'm going to

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agree with Ken Reilly on this would you agree with him that they were ridiculous?

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No, I don't.

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Right.

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It's...

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I don't agree with that.

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Right.

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You know, I still don't agree with your arguments, but I was talking to Anne Reid

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about you when she was at one of my drink sessions and all that sort of stuff.

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We were talking about China and Russia and that type of thing, and she said

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that listening to Trevor, you can't help but agree with his arguments, but

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at the end of the, at the end of the, at the end of the argument and that

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sort of stuff, you've still got to turn around and disagree with him polis polis.

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So anyway, it's just...

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And I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

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I really don't have a problem with that.

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Yeah, I understand that.

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It's one of those things, I don't agree that your arguments were ridiculous.

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I didn't, I didn't agree with any of them, but you had some very

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logical, valid reasons for them.

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So.

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And I think what happens is.

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Where's your humanity, Trevor?

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Yep.

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So what I think this comes down to is a recognition of, of the premise.

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And Cam's inability to recognise that.

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I'll get on to that, but so, So yeah, look, I think Cam's

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one of the great thinkers.

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Like, he's been very influential, in my thinking, on various things.

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So, and often he will say, on a particular matter, you know, he's got no dog in

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the fight, you know, often he's talking about historical matters or whatever or

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the USA or whatever and he'll say, he just goes where the evidence leads him.

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And, that's how I feel in this debate, like, a yes vote would not have made

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the slightest difference to my life.

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Like, I don't look at it and go, this has any personal effect on me.

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It's really just, where does the evidence and the ideas and the morals lead me.

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And believe me, dear listener, it would have been much easier.

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A long time ago, to just agree with the left wing zeitgeist

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and go, Yeah, it's a good idea.

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Let's do it.

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That's just not how I, that's not the conclusion I came to.

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Although it would have been incredibly easier for me, because

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I knew that these sorts of conflicts with people would arise.

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Like, it's just inevitable.

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So, I think that Cam's adopted a premise of helping the downtrodden,

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and he didn't see or value my premise of colourblind equality.

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That was the purpose of all of that other stuff that we've just led up to.

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Also on this particular topic, I don't think Cam read deeply

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enough, and what he did was he trusted the prevailing left wing.

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You, and he said as much because he basically he said that his heuristic

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is that on many issues where you just don't have time to examine all of the

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detail and look at all of the issues in depth and read all of the papers,

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you have to find the people and the institutions that you trust and what do

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they say and then follow their advice.

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So for example, climate change.

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Who amongst us has the time to read all of the scientific papers and figure

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out the nuts and bolts of climate change, but when we've told repeatedly

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that 97 percent of scientists agree on climate change, then we go, okay.

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That'll do me.

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And I don't have to read all that stuff.

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Like, that's not a bad heuristic in that sort of situation.

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But they would argue that 90 percent of Aboriginals wanted the voice.

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Yes.

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And whilst 90 percent of Aboriginals may be an expert in being Aboriginal,

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I don't know that they're an expert in what is best for the nation as a whole.

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Correct.

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Correct.

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Or even for themselves.

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Because...

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Cam basically had you know, when I do meet with Cam, I am going to have one complete,

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you know, I don't, anyone can disagree with me, that's not a problem I will have

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an issue and say, you know, you call my arguments ridiculous, you could have at

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least said what they are, like, and then said they were ridiculous, like, anybody

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listening to that podcast just doesn't know what my argument was, it's just

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only that it's ridiculous, so it would be nice if he could have at least He just

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paraphrased what they were and then stated that he thought they were ridiculous.

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But in any event, he gave two reasons for voting yes.

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And they were that Indigenous people asked for it.

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That was his first reason.

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Now, the ironic part of this is, it his comments about my, my thoughts were at the

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close to the end of a two hour podcast.

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The first 90 minutes were talking about the creation of the state

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of Israel and the history of it.

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Which was basically Jews wanted a state of Israel and we gave it to them.

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And that was a mistake.

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Like, that was essentially what the first 90 minutes of the podcast was.

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That an oppressed people wanted something, and giving them what they

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wanted proved to be an enormous mistake.

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Yet in arguing for the yes vote, Cam says, an oppressed group of people want

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something and that's good enough for me.

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And I just like, can't you see a little bit of a problem here?

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I don't think giving the Jews a A nation was the mistake.

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The mistake was giving it to them on land that was already owned by somebody else.

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And that's what they wanted.

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They wanted the land in Palestine.

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So they wanted that block of land over there.

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That's what they wanted.

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And that ultimately wasn't a good idea for anybody.

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So, it just strikes me as ironic that that his first argument in favour of the yes

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vote was that Indigenous people want this.

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The end.

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Just because an oppressed people want something, isn't always a good idea.

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Primary example, Israel, and the state of Israel, which you've just been

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talking about for an hour and a half.

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The second thing he said was that Okay, if you don't have time to

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examine these topics, and he's a busy man, he's got other things to do,

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and he didn't get into the nuts and bolts of this argument like we have.

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Was, you know, trust people with longstanding that you've learnt over

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time to trust and what's their position.

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And he said, you know, this is a sort of a, a social issue, human rights issue.

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Who are the groups who know that shit?

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And he said, well, the Human Rights Commission and Amnesty.

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So in groups like that Come out in favour of a yes vote, then

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for somebody with limited time to examine all of the details, then

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that's what he's going to go with.

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And just for fun, I thought, I'll just look up what the Human

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Rights Commission actually said.

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You guys know that the Human Rights Commissioner, Lorraine Finlay,

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said, quote, The draft wording.

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Inserts race into the Australian Constitution in a way that undermines

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the foundational human rights principles of equality and non discrimination.

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And creates constitutional uncertainty in terms of its interpretation and operation.

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That's what the head of the Human Rights Commission actually said.

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Now guess what?

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The Human Rights Commission itself came out with a completely different statement.

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So the Commissioner and the Commission are at odds.

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Loggerheads and Poles Apart.

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And guess what?

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Lorraine Finlay was a conservative government appointment and former

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Human Rights Commissioners have come out and said they disagree with

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her and the Commission itself does.

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But my point is the actual Commissioner came out with an argument that's

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pretty much my argument Okay, she was in a conservative government.

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Appointment that doesn't necessarily reflect the Human

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Rights Commission's position.

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But maybe that all demonstrates that maybe the Human Rights Commission isn't as solid

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on this issue as you might think they are.

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But no group is going to be the expert on the voice.

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Because the voice is not just about human rights.

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It's about, how do we organise a society?

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How do we, how do we deal with...

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The best way of creating a cooperative, harmonious community

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where, you know, is equality an important factor in that or not?

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And you know, I don't think there is a group that was an expert on the voice.

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You had to shop around a number of different areas.

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Anyway so, so yeah, that was, you know.

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A wrap up of, of that, and, you know, these are the sorts of discussions and

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conflicts and things that we knew was going to happen with this whole voice

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argument, and Joe, months ago you and I, at one point, I think Scott was around, we

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were like, okay, we're going to talk about the voice now, let's go ahead and do it.

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And, and somebody wrote in to say...

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Our hand wringing over potentially being called racist was pitiful, but

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it's precisely this sort of shit that you and I were worried about as just

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opening this sort of can of worms and, I

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have a dream where everyone is treated based on their...

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Content of their character, not the colour of their skin.

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Now, if you said that in the current age, that would be deemed racist.

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Yes.

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And that, to me, just seems bizarre.

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You'd be told, if you were using that argument for a no vote,

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that you've somehow abused the memory of Martin Luther King.

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We're in some Orwellian doublespeak when it comes to these things.

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And there'll be a good piece by Guy Rundle on this.

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But you know, the other thing was I got an email from a listener who's listened to...

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Probably hundreds of hours of me talking on this podcast, who said, you know, I

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don't know you very well, I'm not sure if you're a racist, blah, blah, blah.

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And I'm like, man, after all this time, if you think I'm a

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racist, you know, thanks a lot.

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So these are the sorts of things that we knew were going to fly.

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I think, I think we need to recognise that we can.

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Agree on an outcome and disagree on how we're going to get to that outcome.

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Yeah.

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And we can agree to be, to be labelled as anti something just because we're

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agree, we disagree on the method.

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And we've got to recognise people have different premises

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that, with different levels of importance that they attach to it.

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And if you don't understand the other person's underlying premise, then don't

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engage in the debate until you do.

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Because he's just doing a disservice to everybody.

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But any comments on that before I move on to Guy Rundle?

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Scott?

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No?

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No?

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No?

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Fair enough.

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Okay.

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Guy Rundle.

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So Guy Rundle oh, what else?

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Let me just let me just play also just the final thing from

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Final word from Cam on this one.

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This was his final bit.

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So, really, to all Australians who voted no, you should be fucking

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ashamed of yourselves, and I am ashamed for you on your behalf.

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I think that's just a failure to recognise that some people might have

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a premise that they see as important, that is a legitimate premise, and

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they see it as outweighing the premise that CAM's operating under.

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You know, the sort of implication from that is, you, Ashamed, let's

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face it, if you're just wrong on some issue, you can be stupid, but Ashamed,

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eh, it's leaning towards, Ashamed's hinting at other stuff, isn't it?

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Anyway.

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Well, you know, you could flip that script and say Cam should be

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ashamed, he was voting to entrench racism in the Constitution.

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Yes, that's right.

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Now I think that's a bad faith, it's a bad faith argument and I wouldn't

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go there, but effectively that is the equivalent of what he's doing.

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I think that's a bad faith argument.

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Yeah.

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So, but, okay.

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Now this is not uncommon with the reaction to the result of the referendum.

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And Guy Rundle, who is a lefty.

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Writing and Crikey had this to say.

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The refusal of this by the electorate has made the cultural producer elite,

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the core of the knowledge class, and its commentariat very, very angry.

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Their first move has been denial of the obvious truth.

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The yes campaign was a shambles.

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The second stage which began last week, was simple hatred and disdain directed

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at the mainstream of the country.

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I think we could include Cam as showing disdain at the mainstream

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of the country in his comment there.

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So Guy Rundle quotes Sean Kelly writing in The Age, and Sean Kelly said this, I've

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been struck by the widespread conclusion based on polling that Australians

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were persuaded by the argument that the voice would divide the country.

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Voters may well say this was what persuaded them, but it is likely that

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most were instinctively against the idea.

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Of the reasons they were able to choose between, to justify their choice,

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this one sounded most attractive.

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Guy Rundle goes on, Well, the voice would divide the country.

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That is its intent.

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This was the great blind spot of the Yes campaign.

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Run with to the end, the division between Indigenous peoples and non Indigenous

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Australians was essential to recognition.

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It was the enactment of recognition.

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We weren't creating a voice, a separate assembly for, say, the benefits

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dependent disabled, whose powerlessness, invisibility and suffering would

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match that of many Indigenous groups.

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We proposed to specifically recognise The separateness of Indigenous

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peoples by recognising no other social groups as requiring or deserving

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a voice assembly of their own.

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This was the essential mechanism of the voice.

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The yes case, that this was really a higher unity arising from the

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imposition of division was gobbledygook and sussed by the mainstream as such.

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I agree with that entirely.

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He goes on.

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That just goes to show that being educated doesn't make you smart.

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The voice wasn't a right wrong answer.

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It's not exams which progressives love and everyone else hates.

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It's not how the contents of thought differ.

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It's the form of thinking that differs, and the different moral

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systems that arise from that.

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I think that's kind of referring to what I was just talking

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about with moral premises.

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Will this utter debacle for progressives serve as some sort of wake up call

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to editors and proprietors of these publications that, for the good of

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the country in general and left and genuinely progressive and liberal

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thinking in particular, they must create centres of forthright and uncompromising

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debate so that ideas and strategies are genuinely tested against reality

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before being applied to the world?

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Well dear listener, this little podcast is your little centre of...

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Forthright and uncompromising debate I like to think.

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Yeah, it's dead right.

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This is the gobbledygook, doublespeak, Orwellian talk.

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That this was a, an inclusiveness, it was a divisiveness.

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I think Guy Rundle's put it quite accurately.

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But, you know, other people say that the shrill voice...

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of the yes vote is saying, if you voted no, it had to

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be because you were a racist.

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That's just not the case.

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Yeah, we've seen that elsewhere with the College Admissions in America, where

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Asians are now being limited to a certain percentage of the population, the campus.

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And the argument is to right historical wrongs, but historically the Asians

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were just as oppressed as the Blacks.

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But now they're succeeding, and so their numbers need to be limited.

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And it seems the exact opposite of trying to right past wrongs.

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Such dangerous territory.

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Treaty.

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Now, in Queensland it was policy of both the LNP and Labor to sort

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of negotiate forwards for a treaty.

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The Liberal LNP leader, Christopher Lee, came out and said, well, in light

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of the referendum, particularly in Queensland we're going to listen to

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the people and when it's no longer our policy to try to negotiate a treaty.

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And, Alice Shea was quite clever, I think, Scott, when she said,

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well, if we can't get bipartisan support, then we'll have to drop it.

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So sorry.

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Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with you.

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It's one of those things.

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I just thought to myself that she had no choice, because the LNP

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would have wedged her with it.

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If it came down to an election issue, which it possibly could have,

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then she would have been out there on her own and that sort of stuff,

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arguing against what was basically the will of the people up here.

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I think it was a godsend for her when the LNP withdrew, you know,

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bipartisan support, gave her an excuse to withdraw it as well.

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Apparently a lot of the left are not happy about that.

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Sorry, Joe.

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I was about to say, I think the LNP have recognised that this is

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a fault line along political lines and that they can exploit that.

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And so yes, maybe she was right to disengage, but I don't see why the

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state couldn't do something that the federal government couldn't.

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Well...

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Assuming that both sides wanted to.

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Yeah, but when both sides don't want to...

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I think she's probably right.

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I think you've hit the nail right on the head, Trevor.

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If you don't have, if you don't have the support on both sides of the aisle,

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then you've got to walk away from it.

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Yeah, I think that's a fair...

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You know, I mean, she, she can, she can still have it as a Labor Party policy and

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all that sort of stuff, but she should actually just say what she said, that

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is, that we're not going to pursue it.

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Because Frank Brennan, I don't know if it came out in one of those

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clips, but he accused the, the organizers of, of this, of playing...

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Roulette with people's emotions, in that they, they worked them up to an

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expectation of a victory in a situation that was doomed because it was no longer

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bipartisan, and I think Alice Shea would be doing the same if she pig headedly

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proceeded with it and ran with it when it's doomed to failure, that's, that's

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not, that would be doing a disservice to people, to get their hopes up and

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then have them sort of told that if people reject this, it's because they're

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racist, and then people reject it and they go, oh shit, everyone's a racist.

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So, yeah, so.

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I mean in theory you could start negotiations.

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You could get part of the way there.

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But yes, until the LNP are on side, then you're not going to get anywhere.

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You could have the beginnings of negotiations, but you couldn't reach

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a conclusion where you could say, we're taking this to Parliament.

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Yes.

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Yep.

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Because, you know, the Tories, before it was a win government,

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now they've just rolled out.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, anyway, thinking of things moving forward, there was a a joint media

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release on the 17th of October.

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Huh.

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Linda Burney, Jason Clare, Marion Skimgore, and Australian and Northern

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Territory Governments have directed officials to conduct an assessment

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of boarding school options and capacity in Central Australia.

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This will be conducted by the National Indigenous Australians

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Agency, the Commonwealth Department of Education and the Northern

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Territory Department of Education.

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All relevant stakeholders, including the Central Australian Aboriginal Leadership

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Group, the Central Australian Regional Controller, and local schools, which

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may be seeking to establish or expand accommodation options, will be consulted.

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So, it's looking at boarding school options in Central Australia.

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Minister Burney said, listening to the views of people in Central

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Australia is an important step and is consistent with the approach we're

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taking in our plan for a better, safer future for Central Australia.

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Minister Clare said this is about working with local schools and

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local Indigenous leaders to make sure students have the support

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they need to reach their potential.

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Similar wording from Southern Mississauga.

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That's how the system has been working and will continue to work.

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When there's a project like this that they're considering, consult

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with the stakeholders, get their opinions, formulate a policy.

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Like that's what's been going on and will go on.

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So this argument that Indigenous people have not been listened

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to, this is the sort of thing that's been going on all the time.

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Ah.

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Guys, that's over an hour already.

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I don't know.

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Sorry?

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All the time.

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Historically, I don't know if that was true, but certainly recently it's true.

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Yeah, OK.

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Not 50 years ago.

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Yep.

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You know what?

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We could talk about Gaza, but, eh, might save it for next week.

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Because I've got a feeling not a lot's going to happen between now and then.

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And, no, it appears that the Israelis are balking at their land invasion of Gaza.

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Does it, the Yanks are telling the Yeah.

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The, the Yanks are telling them to hold off and that sort of thing.

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They're doing what they're told.

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Yeah.

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Apparently the Yanks are gonna put some more equipment on the ground and that

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sort of stuff, so they're actually telling them to wait until that's all set up.

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Right.

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But

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hang on, you're still there.

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It's things, I think the, I think it could actually blow up into a full

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scale war in the region actually.

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Yeah.

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So I, and the question is whether that was the intent.

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was to provoke Israel into overreacting to lead to a fracturing of the understandings

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that Israel has come to with other Arab nations, particularly Saudi Arabia.

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Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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I mean, you know, it's one of those things, because apparently

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Saudi Arabia's pulled the pin on negotiating a normalization of

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relations with Israel, you know?

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I've got actually I will do a little bit, because in case it gets a bit

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old, I've got the Essential Report.

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I was polling people about the polling Australians about Australia's involvement

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with the Israel Palestine conflict.

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So, so I've got on the screen the question was, in terms of the current

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conflict in Israel and Palestine, what do you think Australia should do?

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And the answers were...

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Provide active assistance to Israel, or stay out of the conflict entirely, or

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provide active assistance to Palestine.

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And what did Australians say?

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Well, 23 percent said give assistance to Israel, 13 percent said give assistance to

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Palestine, and 64 percent stay out of it.

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So that was the overall response.

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What do you reckon gender would be?

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I'd say mostly women would say stay out of it.

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Hmm.

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In, yes, men slightly more positive about assistance to Israel.

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So 26 percent of men wanted to assist Israel, 21 percent of

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females wanted to assist Israel.

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And they were both sort of 13 and 14 percent when it came to

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assisting Palestine, so men a bit more inclined to assist Israel.

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Guys, what do you reckon the age Would young people be more likely to assist

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Israel or Palestine and would old people.

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Palestine.

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Okay.

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And old people, Israel.

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Okay.

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Old, old people.

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Israel.

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Okay.

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'cause it, it's down to politics.

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Here we go, Joe.

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Well done.

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So in terms of assisting Israel, if you're 55 plus 30% of Australians wanted

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to do that and only 2 percent of over 55s wanted to support Palestine, OK?

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But in the younger age group, the 18 to 34s, more people

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wanted to assist Palestine.

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So 25 percent wanted to assist Palestine.

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Only 20 percent Israel.

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So there we go.

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Our community divided by age, yet again.

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Guys?

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Voting intention?

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Which party?

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Follow age.

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Okay, so Greens voters, Palestine?

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Yep.

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Liberal Nationals?

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Let's see what the answer is.

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And let's go, yeah.

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Coalition voters, 34 percent want to support Israel and

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only 9 percent Palestine.

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Whereas in the Greens, 24 percent for Palestine.

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And 18 percent for Israel.

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Now, interesting isn't it, Joe, you were talking earlier about indicators

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that are seemingly divorced from politics, but are just a guideline

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as to political affiliation.

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Yes.

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And, and this is a classic sort of example, isn't it, that that

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we were able to pick allegiances.

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on those groups based on those figures, on those things, so, yeah there we go.

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So, interesting.

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We'll see how, see how community opinion changes over time with that one.

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So, right, well, Joe of Devon and Scott of the Tropics that's

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enough for one episode, I reckon.

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All the people in the chat room, thanks for your participation.

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That was good.

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We'll be back with something next week.

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Talk to you then.

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Bye for now.

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And it's a good night from me.

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And it's a good night from him.

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Good night.

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The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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