full

Episode 394 - Race and Religion

In this episode we discuss:

(00:00) 394b

(00:43) Intro

(05:31) Secular Agenda Podcast

(06:31) Global Temperatures

(08:54) Census Question

(15:26) Trump

(25:35) The Voice - Another Poll

(29:22) Episode 99

(37:49) I Recommend Episode 213 plus The Voice issues

(01:04:02) Farewell Till Next Week

Chapters, images & show notes powered by vizzy.fm.

The Census Question

https://consult.abs.gov.au/census/2026-census-topic-consultation-phase-two/consultation/subpage.2023-07-04.3570989610/


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Transcript
Trevor:

Suburban Eastern Australia.

Trevor:

An environment that has over time evolved some extraordinarily

Trevor:

unique groups of homo sapiens.

Trevor:

But today we observe a small tribe akin to a group of mere cats that gather together

Trevor:

atop a small mound to watch question and discuss the current events of their city,

Trevor:

their country, and their world at large.

Trevor:

Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

Trevor:

Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

Trevor:

We are back episode 394, Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

Trevor:

I'm Trevor a K A, the Iron Fist, not with me because of internet issues.

Trevor:

It's got the Velvet Glove.

Trevor:

He's disappointed with.

Trevor:

Optus in his writing, angry emails, which given he's got internet

Trevor:

problems, is possibly a waste of time.

Trevor:

Jay, the tech guy, as a tech guy, was there a point in writing nasty

Trevor:

emails if your internet is failing?

Trevor:

I

Joe:

think he's using his mobile phone to bind to his laptop

Joe:

to, so he's got some internet?

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Just not streaming quality.

Trevor:

No, it's not.

Trevor:

So welcome aboard to you, Joe, the tech guy.

Trevor:

So I'm not here on a solo show.

Trevor:

Thank you for that.

Trevor:

It's a pleasure.

Trevor:

You were saying before we were rudely interrupted by the seven 30

Trevor:

start of this podcast, you might be moving to Fiber to the premises.

Trevor:

Yeah, I'll kidding.

Trevor:

Are they?

Joe:

They I, I got an email, well, in fact I got a card through the

Joe:

letterbox from em, un going, Hey, five is available in your area.

Joe:

And then I get an email from Telstra who said, ring us.

Joe:

So I did, got put on hold and then an hour later the call dropped

Joe:

whilst I was still on hold.

Joe:

Course, and I got another email today.

Joe:

So I texted them and said, call me instead.

Joe:

And they did and went, yeah, if you upgrades to the a hundred meg service,

Joe:

you can have the upgrade for free.

Joe:

And the guy's coming around next week to do the first step.

Trevor:

So what will be the change in speed?

Joe:

I mean, in theory, I'm on the a hundred meg plan now,

Joe:

although I'm getting 50 odd megs.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

and this is a hundred meg plan again.

Joe:

Oh, that's all.

Joe:

yeah.

Joe:

I think they do a two 50 meg.

Joe:

If I move to another provider, there's some that do a gigabit,

Joe:

ah, I thought you were gonna

Trevor:

tell me a story of amazing, you know, 2000 something.

Trevor:

No,

Joe:

no.

Joe:

It's, it's much more about reliability.

Joe:

Oh, okay.

Joe:

Fiber doesn't suffer from lightning strikes.

Joe:

Fiber doesn't suffer from water in the pit.

Joe:

Okay.

Joe:

Fi fiber is just a better technology.

Joe:

I.

Joe:

Okay.

Trevor:

Alright.

Trevor:

Enough of tech, no tech stuff.

Trevor:

this is a podcast where we talk about news and politics and sex and religion tonight.

Trevor:

Mostly religion and race actually.

Trevor:

So Alison's in the chat room.

Trevor:

Hello Alison.

Trevor:

Hello to your mom, Bev, who's no doubt watching beside you.

Trevor:

Alison, I'm gonna be quoting from your Facebook page.

Trevor:

I hope that's okay about the, the census question.

Trevor:

So I'm gonna be quoting a quickly message if that's not appropriate.

Trevor:

But yeah, maybe I should just give everyone, tell anyone to join your

Trevor:

Facebook page and I could cut 20 minutes off my regular podcast

Trevor:

if people were to read Allison's become friends with Allison.

Trevor:

So yeah, if you make a friend request, just tell her the trailer sent you.

Trevor:

yeah.

Trevor:

What are we gonna talk about?

Trevor:

we're gonna be talking about the secular Agenda podcast, global land temperatures.

Trevor:

Little follow up, the census question.

Trevor:

Trump facing a few more criminal court charges, yet another poll on the voice

Trevor:

and we're gonna talk about the voice in the remaining time after that, where

Trevor:

I think I'm going to just pick through some statements that people have made.

Trevor:

Pretty much the ones where people have said, if you vote no, you're a

Trevor:

racist, and, and probably just address where those statements have been

Trevor:

made and offer an alternative view.

Trevor:

That's my plan at the moment.

Trevor:

So, Anne's in the chat room.

Trevor:

Hello Anne and Don as well.

Trevor:

So, and we just, let me just change a few things with this screen before

Trevor:

I go too much further, Joe, so I can actually read my notes and look

Trevor:

at the camera at the same time.

Trevor:

So, oh, just one other thing.

Trevor:

Dear listener, I've started a second podcast.

Trevor:

This is a really niche topic as you know.

Trevor:

I still are supplies.

Trevor:

I've started a podcast called the Art Supplies Experts.

Trevor:

So if you want to hear more of me talking about, definitely not news

Trevor:

and politics and the section of religion, but instead art supplies.

Trevor:

Look that one up.

Trevor:

And I did one on the color ultramarine blue.

Trevor:

If you're interested in the history and the ins and outs of the color, ultramarine

Trevor:

blue, then check out the art supplies.

Trevor:

Experts subscribe to that and instantly, I, I'm guessing it's not a panel show.

Trevor:

No, it's just me, but occasional, I say I had a guest on, on one

Trevor:

episode, expert from Royal Talons, and I'm getting other art supply

Trevor:

experts to interview and talk to.

Trevor:

So sometimes just me, sometimes with other people.

Trevor:

Yep.

Trevor:

So there you go.

Trevor:

If you don't get enough of my voice, you can listen to me

Trevor:

waxing on about ultramarine blue.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

so that was that one.

Trevor:

And now Joe, do you subscribe to the Secular Agenda podcast?

Trevor:

No, the Rationalist Society.

Trevor:

Anyway, they put out another episode of their podcast.

Trevor:

S is the host of that one.

Trevor:

It's sort of an irregular podcast when they've got something to say.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

And on it is our very own Mel and our very own Allison talking about

Trevor:

religious instruction in Queensland.

Trevor:

So well done Mel and Allison on that one.

Trevor:

Mel was talking about the process of getting the religious instruction motion

Trevor:

up at the recent Labor Conference.

Trevor:

So, so yeah, that's called the Secular Agenda Podcast.

Trevor:

Look that one up.

Trevor:

And you can hear our very own, I've adopted them, our

Trevor:

very own Mel and Allison.

Trevor:

So yeah, Shay says, gosh, that is niche.

Trevor:

Yes, it is.

Trevor:

It's very niche.

Trevor:

in Landon.

Trevor:

Oh, I can't wait for the history of colors.

Trevor:

Good.

Trevor:

Joe, last week we were talking about global temperatures, average

Trevor:

temperature increasing by 2%.

Trevor:

You looked at the graph and you said, hang on a minute, if it's

Trevor:

a global temperature mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Why is it increasing during July and decreasing in December, January?

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Kind of in line with the northern hemisphere, if in fact it's

Trevor:

a global average temperature.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

I don't know how long I wasted on this job.

Trevor:

Trying to find the answer to it.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Could not find the answer, but I'm, I'm surmising something.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Try this one.

Trevor:

That maybe it's to do with land mass.

Trevor:

So, Land has smaller heat capacity than water.

Trevor:

There is more land in the northern hemisphere.

Trevor:

About 68% of the land, mass of earth is in the Northern Hemisphere, and

Trevor:

this leaves about 32% of the land mass for the southern hemisphere.

Trevor:

So the heat capacity of land is smaller than water.

Trevor:

So maybe that explains why the average temperature in say, July is

Trevor:

higher because the greater landmass in the northern hemisphere is

Trevor:

heating up compared to the smaller landmass in the southern hemisphere.

Trevor:

What do you think is that is a theory.

Trevor:

We've got

Joe:

two hypotheses now.

Trevor:

What's the second one?

Joe:

Well, the fact is that there's more landmass in the northern hemisphere,

Joe:

therefore there's more weather stations.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Surely they adjusted for that though.

Trevor:

Who knows?

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Anyway,

Joe:

so, so yeah, I'm, look, both are hypothetically plausible.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

whether it's one the other, a combination of both, there's another

Joe:

factor that we haven't considered.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

But certainly, it's very plausible.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Thank you Joe.

Trevor:

That's what I'm going with at the moment.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

If anyone can enlighten us as to why the daily global surface air

Trevor:

temperature seems to increase in July compared to January and December,

Trevor:

and therefore follows a northern hemisphere pattern for a global average.

Trevor:

Other than the reason I've just given, let me know.

Trevor:

Dunno any

Joe:

meteorologists or climatologists.

Joe:

So, yeah.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

Census question.

Trevor:

This has been an ongoing issue on this podcast for, I don't know how

Trevor:

long now is the census question.

Trevor:

Because in other countries like New Zealand when asking people about

Trevor:

their religion, the census is framed as you know, do you have a religion?

Trevor:

Are you religious?

Trevor:

And if so, what?

Trevor:

Religion?

Trevor:

Whereas in Australia, the question is what is your religion?

Trevor:

And only recently has no religion sort of made its way to the top of the list.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

It was previously down the bottom.

Trevor:

But it does pre presume a religion.

Trevor:

It's sort of a, a framing of a question if you say to somebody that, I mean, if,

Joe:

if you were to phrase the question, are you deluded?

Joe:

If yes, what is your religion?

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

I I'm sure you'd get a very different outcome.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

You believe in that stupid mumbo bun mumbo jumbo shit.

Trevor:

Exactly.

Joe:

If,

Trevor:

if so, which,

Joe:

which ex, which type of shit is that Exactly.

Joe:

Which flavor of mumbo

Trevor:

jumbo do you like?

Trevor:

It's all about framing.

Trevor:

That's right.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

And other surveys, you know, suggest a much higher proportion of the population

Trevor:

is in fact, are in fact non-believers.

Trevor:

The census seems to understate compared to other surveys and those

Trevor:

other surveys, you know, might use the sort of, are you religious initial

Trevor:

question and then which religion?

Joe:

And, and then there's the other question about

Joe:

the whole spiritual, but not

Trevor:

religious.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

And then atheism being in the religion column as well.

Trevor:

Well, exactly.

Trevor:

You know, which religion and atheism is a choice Under which religion, which, which

Joe:

color do you prefer No color.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

So, dear listener, the Australian Bureau of Statistics is according

Trevor:

to Allison's Facebook page.

Trevor:

and it is, I did, I did click on the link.

Trevor:

They're looking for feedback.

Trevor:

so, as according to Alison, as a result of lots of lobbying, the Australian

Trevor:

Bureau of Statistics is reviewing the design of the census religious

Trevor:

affiliation question and the response categories and wants feedback.

Trevor:

One option being considered includes introducing a filter question to

Trevor:

understand whether someone has a religion before asking which

Trevor:

religion they are affiliated with.

Trevor:

However, this would mean that data may not be comparable with

Trevor:

data from previous censuses.

Trevor:

So the Australian group of statistics likes to be able to compare like

Trevor:

data with, like data and track the movement of opinion over time.

Trevor:

So they're arguing, eh, not sure we want to change the question because

Trevor:

our comparison of data will be different, might not be as valid.

Trevor:

The comparison.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

So anyway, they're looking for feedback.

Trevor:

There will be a link in the show notes, hopefully, if not just

Trevor:

Google and you should get there.

Trevor:

But hopefully I'll remember to put, definitely the patrons will get it

Trevor:

because it'll be in the printed one.

Trevor:

I'll try and remember to put it in.

Joe:

Can, can they do a, a dual survey?

Joe:

Maybe not in the actual census, but ask people the two questions.

Joe:

So, so pick two groups of a thousand people and at random give them

Joe:

either the original question or give them the new pair of questions

Joe:

and see what statistical bias you

Trevor:

get that's been done.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

So the National Secular lobby paid, I think it was essential pole to do that.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

And that was part of what had been previously presented to the

Trevor:

Australian Bureau of Statistics.

Joe:

But then if we know what the statistical biases

Joe:

with the questions mm-hmm.

Joe:

They can factor that into future results.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

And say that prior to this date we were asking this question, which

Joe:

has a round a, whatever it is, 10% statistical difference with this

Trevor:

question.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Allison says, you can, and you can, you sort of go in there and provide feedback.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

So you're encouraged to do that.

Trevor:

Dear listener, if this is important to you, if you're listening to

Trevor:

this podcast, it probably is.

Trevor:

And, she's given a suggestion of what she said, which was essentially

Trevor:

getting an accurate answer is more important than having, than continuity.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

A bad, bad data reproduced.

Trevor:

Just so you can compare bad data is essentially what she was saying.

Trevor:

Good argument.

Trevor:

Allison, maybe dear listener, if you go in, you can put something

Trevor:

similar that ultimately having the correct most accurate data is more

Trevor:

important than, than being able to compare bad data with bad data.

Trevor:

Anyway.

Trevor:

I, I've already done that.

Trevor:

Have you?

Trevor:

Hmm?

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

You're on the ball.

Trevor:

And what did you say?

Joe:

roughly the same.

Joe:

That effectively, we were getting inaccurate results and that, E it

Joe:

led to, religious groups that were minorities being able to claim more

Joe:

influence than they actually have.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

and therefore it was not an accurate reflection of the demographics,

Joe:

and led to unequal outcomes of in terms of funding and, attention paid

Joe:

by politicians and other groups.

Joe:

And I've said that, it's to be expected that those who are most

Joe:

privileged by the, skewing of this data will complain heavily.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

and that they should stand firm against it and worry about the

Joe:

integrity of the data rather than making certain demographics happy.

Trevor:

Very good, Joe.

Trevor:

Wow, you really launched into a spiel there.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Good.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

In the chat room, Alison says there's no point in comparing

Trevor:

data if the data is skewed.

Trevor:

Don says, I don't need religion as I read comics and already

Trevor:

have plenty of imaginary friends.

Trevor:

And, Jack h says, that's where my mind went.

Trevor:

Trevor landmass, but also the type or amount of Laura in the area.

Trevor:

Joel says, is it just me or does Trevor look like Goliath from the chase tonight?

Trevor:

I've never watched it, so I don't know.

Trevor:

I don't know.

Trevor:

I have no idea.

Trevor:

and don't ask whether we'll be discussing model kit base.

Trevor:

No.

Joe:

Well, this is in your paint expert.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

If you've come in late, I need you to go to the art supply experts

Trevor:

and subscribe, boost my download numbers, and maybe listen to the one

Trevor:

on Ultra Marine as your first one.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

Donald Trump, Joe never heard of him in trouble.

Trevor:

Mm.

Trevor:

Grand jury has indicted him for multiple alleged crimes in

Trevor:

connection with his efforts.

Trevor:

A, a grand

Joe:

jury of.

Joe:

Normal citizens, not politicians, not members of the Democratic

Joe:

Party, but people off the street have chosen to indict him on

Joe:

the strength of the evidence.

Joe:

Was

Trevor:

it in New

Joe:

York?

Joe:

Grand?

Joe:

No, it's Washington DC I think.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Yep.

Joe:

Because he's complaining that Washington DC is a swamp.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

Actually it wa wasn't it Rhonda, Satan, who's complained?

Trevor:

Well, when you say they're ordinary citizens,

Trevor:

they came from Washington.

Trevor:

Does, are they, does that count still,

Joe:

Joe?

Joe:

So they're not politicians?

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

But you know Julian Assange mm-hmm.

Trevor:

And with indictments and things mm-hmm.

Trevor:

They, they do that in a district mm-hmm.

Trevor:

That is known to be full of, of government spooks and employees.

Trevor:

Like, there's a high percentage of, of home affairs department

Trevor:

employees and things, but, but also

Joe:

DC.

Joe:

Itself is a very, very poor area that is, has a high per percentage of

Joe:

black people or, Latinos and whatever.

Joe:

and actually leans very, very left wing.

Joe:

And, and this is the, the argument against it.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

So the spooks and all the rich gov, the, the cushy government jobs live

Joe:

outside of DC and commute in, and if you're actually picking people from DC

Joe:

they're generally, the cleaners, right.

Joe:

They're, they're, they're not the people in power actually.

Trevor:

Have you been to Washington?

Joe:

Baltimore,

Trevor:

but not Washington.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Not a bad place to visit in terms of American places to visit.

Trevor:

I never want to go back to America at all.

Trevor:

But, in the scheme of things, if you had to go, it is not a bad place.

Trevor:

An interesting public.

Trevor:

Where's

Joe:

the aeronautical or Space Museum?

Trevor:

I can't remember if that was in Washington or not.

Trevor:

No, it was

Joe:

Washington or Baltimore.

Joe:

I can't remember.

Joe:

'cause my grandfather used to live in Baltimore.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

so we've wanted to be

Joe:

B W A A B W I, years ago, my brother and I as unaccompanied miners and mate,

Joe:

my grandfather, met us at the gate, walked us to customs in Immigration.

Joe:

Says to the customs guy, it's all right.

Joe:

The ambassadors asked me to take these young gentlemen through and walks us

Joe:

straight through customs in immigration.

Trevor:

Was that bullshit?

Trevor:

Of course, right.

Joe:

He, he, he had an, he had a very put on English accent.

Joe:

He drove in a Rolls Royce, a secondhand Rolls RoCE.

Joe:

And he called himself Lord Bennett, and he, he just took the Americans

Joe:

for everything that he could.

Joe:

He was a shyster.

Trevor:

Fantastic story, Joe.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

I dunno, you get away with it this day and age, but back in the

Trevor:

eighties.

Trevor:

Washington's, Washington.

Trevor:

Allison says, Washington was very interesting.

Trevor:

Saw a deer in a residential street and lots of squirrels.

Trevor:

You can see deer in Brisbane streets, Allison, there's lots of, there's

Trevor:

a big deer problem over at, sort of the northwest western suburbs.

Trevor:

really around, yeah.

Trevor:

around gender.

Trevor:

Lee Jamberry Heights around there.

Trevor:

gee, I digress on this podcast, but I know a guy who was a former s a

Trevor:

s guy and one of his jobs was to occasionally shoot problem deer.

Trevor:

And there was a deer that was lurking on the tracks at Clayfield railway tracks.

Trevor:

So one day he had to go out in the middle of the morning mm-hmm.

Trevor:

And just sit there and wait and, and shoot a deer.

Trevor:

That was, a job he had.

Trevor:

He also took the Broncos out to find, sort of, on hikes out into.

Trevor:

Borough and made them live rough.

Trevor:

And it was amazed when, when the, when the front rowers cried.

Trevor:

When they had to kill the chickens.

Trevor:

They weren't looking after in order to eat them.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

I had a similar experience going out bunny hunting.

Joe:

We went ferreting.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

And this tough young Ladd, who was one of our next door neighbors, was all upset

Joe:

that we were gonna kill this poor little

Trevor:

bunny rabbit.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Being a chicken strangler.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Which is the nickname for the ss a s guys.

Trevor:

He had no problem strangling chickens.

Trevor:

It strange that it was strange.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

He just thought it was amazing that these big tough front way forwards

Trevor:

hesitated in killing chickens when they were, it was, that was all

Trevor:

they were gonna have for dinner.

Trevor:

I don't think the Broncos do that anymore.

Trevor:

That was a while ago now.

Trevor:

But, full of stories, those guys.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

Anyway, this time Trump is facing charges relating to the January 6th incident

Trevor:

and in particular, The aftermath of it and his actions in trying to have the

Trevor:

election overturned, counting, delayed, and basically objecting to the legitimate

Trevor:

counting of the electoral result.

Trevor:

It sounds like he's in a world of trouble with that one and unlikely to escape.

Joe:

yeah.

Joe:

I saw a lawyer going through it saying it's a bit how much trouble

Joe:

he'll get in is, is debatable.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

But certainly there's a lot of, there's enough evidence to think

Joe:

there's a chance of a conviction.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

It's not a groundless

Trevor:

case.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

Well, what I was reading was a pretty, pretty strong, I listened to occasionally

Trevor:

opening arguments as a podcast.

Trevor:

Is that still going guessing?

Trevor:

Yeah, it is.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Despite their big bust up.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

The, the lawyer is, still running that one, so.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

interestingly on this one, Joe, the Trump case has been assigned to US District

Trevor:

Judge Tanya Chikin and Chikin, and Obama Appointee is the only federal judge in

Trevor:

Washington who was sentenced January 6th.

Trevor:

Defendants two sentences longer than the government had requested.

Trevor:

So she's not a Trump judge at all.

Trevor:

That's what gives me real confidence that he's in real trouble this time

Trevor:

is he's got the wrong judge, only

Joe:

if he's found guilty.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

obviously the judge does a sentencing, the jury decides on guilt.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

So, as assuming you get a jury to convict, then Yes.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

he's moving.

Joe:

He's, asked for the judge to recuse themselves because he says, there's

Joe:

no way he'll get a fair trial.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

And DeSantis has said, He's moving that, any defendant has the right to move there.

Joe:

if he becomes president, he'll make a law that says you can be tried

Joe:

in your home state rather than in

Trevor:

DC Yes.

Trevor:

'cause DC is a CPO Yes.

Trevor:

Of some sort.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

In

Joe:

other words, it lead against Democrat.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

All true.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

We'll see where it ends up.

Joe:

And apparently, Trump's lawyer has been on TV a number of times and

Joe:

dropped him further in the shed by saying, well, of course he broke the law.

Joe:

But that's okay.

Joe:

He's allowed to

Trevor:

effectively Yes.

Trevor:

His immunity from everything.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

I think is the latest, the latest defense is a new concept of just

Trevor:

total immunity for former presidents.

Joe:

Well, first of all, it's his first amendment.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

So, so, and as someone was saying, I can't remember who it was he

Joe:

was interviewed, said, Well, every crime has the freedom of speech.

Joe:

It doesn't mean that you can commit fraud just because you're

Joe:

expressing your freedom of speech.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

so sure his speech was protected, but he was committing a fraud.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

and, interestingly enough, Pence, sounds like he's going to provide

Joe:

or be a witness for the prosecution.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

And there's some very damning evidence coming out of Pence's mouth.

Joe:

Yep.

Joe:

Stating, stating that Trump knew that he'd lost and still went

Joe:

on to ask, for various Yeah.

Joe:

to find more votes and to do other fraudulent

Trevor:

things.

Trevor:

I think Trump's only chance is an argument where he says, my lawyers

Trevor:

told me it was okay to say this.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

But in the indictment, they've already shown plenty of other.

Trevor:

Well-placed people told him, you cannot do this.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

It's illegal.

Trevor:

It doesn't matter what these nut cases are saying.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

It's just not legal to do what you're gonna do.

Trevor:

So that's his only chance, I think, is if he can run that argument.

Trevor:

and

Joe:

it's interesting about Pence, because obviously Trump

Joe:

set the lynch mob after pence.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

you, you know that they had a set of gallows and that they, it, it looks

Joe:

very likely that they were intent on hanging pence on January 6th.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

If they were able to get hold of him.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

'cause he hadn't done what the Furah had demanded.

Trevor:

Exactly.

Trevor:

there's a fictional workout, I'm gonna buy it about the breakup of the union

Trevor:

and the Civil War, kind of a dystopian, futuristic type of novel, and, um mm-hmm.

Trevor:

I think that'll be one of the first fiction pieces I've bought for a while.

Trevor:

right.

Trevor:

I think I'm gonna get that one.

Trevor:

The last one I bought was, Margaret Atwood with, her stuff.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Just always dystopian religious stuff.

Trevor:

Mm, right.

Trevor:

well, it just wouldn't be a podcast lately, Joe, if we didn't

Trevor:

have a poll about the voice.

Trevor:

If all wanted to talk about the voice.

Trevor:

Oh, in the chat room.

Trevor:

let me see.

Trevor:

Alison's also got foxes and Julia has heaps of deer in Pull and

Trevor:

Veil and Landon's making bad puns.

Trevor:

And so is Joel.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

Another poll on the voice this time from Essential Dear you listen to, you might

Trevor:

remember when we were first doing polls.

Trevor:

Well, when we were first doing polls, we were doing polls six years ago on this.

Trevor:

I've been t trawling through all old episodes and finding stuff.

Trevor:

We were talking about the voice back in episode three.

Trevor:

We've been talking about this a long time.

Trevor:

In more recent, it's still a bad idea.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Funnily enough, as I was listening to my arguments in episode three, they sounded

Trevor:

unerringly like what they are now.

Trevor:

where was I going with this?

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

In recent 12 months, 18 months since it was declared there was gonna

Trevor:

be a referendum, initially the Yes vote had a sort of a strong lead.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

In essential poll, it dipped a little bit, came back, but then a number

Trevor:

of the other polls, news, poll and Resolve, and other ones started to

Trevor:

show some really bad results in terms of bad results for the Yes voters.

Trevor:

And now there's another one from, the latest one from Essential.

Trevor:

So this is the poll that has previously been quite favorable for a yes vote.

Trevor:

It's now showing, not so great.

Trevor:

So in July, the yes vote was 47% and the no was 43.

Trevor:

And in the latest essential poll, that is reversed.

Trevor:

So the yes vote has dropped to 43, the no to 47.

Trevor:

That's in the overall vote in Australia.

Trevor:

And I'll just give you the no votes.

Trevor:

in the different, well, I'll give you the different states.

Trevor:

47, new South Wales.

Trevor:

47%.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

41.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Victoria is the only state that seems to be in favor of a yes vote.

Trevor:

And that's by 1% by 47 to 46 Queensland.

Trevor:

51 to 40 saying no South Australia, 48 to 45 saying no.

Trevor:

Western Australia, 48 to 39 saying, no, there we go.

Trevor:

It's really, Joe, you wouldn't want much money on a Yes vote getting up.

Trevor:

It's not looking.

Trevor:

I don't think so.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

So, so that's where that stands.

Trevor:

But we still have to talk about the, and apparently

Joe:

Albanese has said there won't be a second chance.

Joe:

If it doesn't get up, he's not going to put it up again.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

I think he made the comparison with, the Republican vote.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

He said, well, once that failed, it was off the agenda

Trevor:

for quite a while and still is.

Trevor:

And I think that's probably a, a fair call.

Trevor:

Fair enough.

Trevor:

A full fair call.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Exactly.

Trevor:

So, so I, dear listener, yeah.

Trevor:

Back in episode three, I.

Trevor:

We were talking about it because, and I think I might put the clip

Trevor:

from episode three at the end of tonight's episode when we are finished.

Trevor:

I think I'll tack it onto the audio if you wanna hear how we were talking

Trevor:

about this nearly eight years ago.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

because at that time, Noel Pearson had been on a q and a episode and had proposed

Trevor:

this idea and Scott was a bit, Hmm.

Trevor:

Dunno if that's a good idea.

Trevor:

I was a definite, I don't think it's a good idea.

Trevor:

Scott was saying this seems to be quite divisive rather than uniting us.

Trevor:

And I was going, yeah, that's right.

Trevor:

Anyway, my son came across for some reason, he was, looking at episode 99.

Trevor:

I don't know what reason why.

Trevor:

I can assure you he's got lots of better things to do than to troll

Trevor:

through old episodes of this podcast.

Trevor:

But for whatever reason, he was listening to episode 99.

Trevor:

So I'm gonna play a bit of that one now.

Trevor:

It goes for about five minutes.

Trevor:

Give my voice a rest.

Trevor:

And not only does it just give our initial impressions at that

Trevor:

time, so was that six years ago?

Trevor:

But also it then moves on to a discussion about Noel Pearson and

Trevor:

the foul mouth of Noel Pearson.

Trevor:

So, dear listener, language warning in the extreme at this point, if you've

Trevor:

got young kitties who are nearby, you do not want them listening to the next

Trevor:

five minutes and 47 seconds of this podcast, particularly the last half of it.

Trevor:

So definitely keep them away from, from some of this.

Trevor:

So here's an excerpt from episode 99 to demonstrate, it's probably been on

Trevor:

this topic a long time, and just some of the nuggets of gold that are there

Trevor:

in the back catalog for you to enjoy.

Trevor:

Here we go.

Trevor:

Uluru statement right wing Tanya.

Trevor:

I had a bit of a discussion about, constitutional changes that yeah,

Trevor:

I'll listen to that are looking for, and and I don't know where I stand

Trevor:

on that anymore, but, I do think that, asking for a representative

Trevor:

body is, is probably a step too far.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

And I think that, that won't fly in the, I don't think that'll fly with the public.

Trevor:

Well, here we go.

Trevor:

They've asked the public, according to essential report, they said last week

Trevor:

the, Willow RU statement was released calling for a number of policy measures

Trevor:

relating to indigenous Australians.

Trevor:

Do you support or oppose the following measures?

Trevor:

And they've listed four different ones there.

Trevor:

enshrining and indigenous voiced to Parliament in the Constitution,

Trevor:

negotiating a treaty, creating a treaty commission, creating

Trevor:

a Truth and Reconciliation commission on all of those things.

Trevor:

More people were in favor of it than were against, which surprised is that right?

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

It was a high level of support for people for any of the four options, which.

Trevor:

It scares the bejesus outta me, Scott.

Trevor:

It does scare me too.

Trevor:

And I know that, some of our more left wing listeners will accuse me of, racism

Trevor:

when I say this, but I do think that we should as a nation, concentrate on what

Trevor:

unites us rather than what divides us.

Trevor:

And, I do think that if we create a, if we create a separate body

Trevor:

within the parliament, just for indigenous people, then that'll be

Trevor:

concentrating on more what, what divides us through what unites us mm-hmm.

Trevor:

As well as being racist in that certain people, depending on their it is racist.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

On their, genealogy will be entitled to certain benefits, which isn't a good idea.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

The other reason that it scares me, Scott, is that Noel Pearson

Trevor:

could be, well, one of those people who gets elected to that position.

Trevor:

And, dear listener language warning coming up.

Trevor:

'cause we are referring to, we gonna quote Noel Pearson and, and, and

Trevor:

this guy, it could get a little blue.

Trevor:

Yeah, swing is like nobody else.

Trevor:

And this article is about how much he swears.

Trevor:

So turn the volume down if there are any children in the vicinity.

Trevor:

And if you don't like s swearing, maybe fast forward about five

Trevor:

minutes to the next item.

Trevor:

So, so last year, November 25th, where there was a meeting, of constitutional,

Trevor:

you know, the usual suspects all at a meeting and at it, Noel Pearson

Trevor:

put up his proposal and basically got feedback from the Prime Minister

Trevor:

and others that it wasn't gonna fly.

Trevor:

And after the meeting, I.

Trevor:

Pearson, verbally assaults Prime Minister Turnbull, and there

Trevor:

are various witnesses to it.

Trevor:

And, liberal mp Warren Eng was not at the meeting but said he's been

Trevor:

told by witnesses of what was said.

Trevor:

And there are other people who, are also seemingly able to confirm statements.

Trevor:

But basically this, this people have the impression, oh, okay, let's

Trevor:

allow the Aboriginal voice into our parliament and it'll all be reasonable

Trevor:

and they'll do the right thing.

Trevor:

And if Noel Pearson is one of 'em, then he might well stand up at point.

Trevor:

So at some point and use language like this, he's alleged to have

Trevor:

called, let me just get this straight here in the, Malcolm Turnbull.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

He took, he called Malcolm Turnbull, a white cunt.

Trevor:

He called Indigenous Minister Ken Wyatt, a black cunt, indigenous labor senator.

Trevor:

Pat Dodson, a fucking black cunt.

Trevor:

He just, at least he was non-discriminatory in his language.

Trevor:

Like he, he went for everybody.

Trevor:

That's true.

Trevor:

He just has got the foulest language and this is the one of

Trevor:

the most eminent leaders of the Aboriginal community and Exactly.

Trevor:

And it just goes around racially abusing people.

Trevor:

Well, this is the best they've got to offer.

Trevor:

Is, this is the thing that I found absolutely disgusting was that,

Trevor:

whether you like him or love him or loathe him, he's the prime minister.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

And he deserves a lot more respect than being described as a white cunt.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

You know, it is a.

Trevor:

Ah, it's, it's not a one-off event.

Trevor:

Last year, Queensland Department of Education Director General Jim Motson

Trevor:

claimed a letter to Pearson that he'd been abused and that he had abused and

Trevor:

intimidated department staff calling some asrs, coverer, maggot and bucket of shit.

Trevor:

last year, Pearson denied he had abused Queensland Minister of Education, Kate

Trevor:

Jones, calling her a fucking white cunt.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

Ms.

Trevor:

Jones stands by the claims.

Trevor:

he talks of racism and bigotry.

Trevor:

he can't talk with a degree of pious cue yourself prepared to

Trevor:

stoop to using racist terms.

Trevor:

He's an awful man and this is one of the characters who could well be

Trevor:

lobbed into parliament as part of the,

Trevor:

the beginning blast from the past.

Trevor:

Joe, you managed to latch onto the last part of that from your phone.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Because you weren't getting the audio for some strange reason.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Ah, they'll

Joe:

be going.

Joe:

Oh, I have to say, I agree with him on Malcolm Turnwell.

Trevor:

Well, you shouldn't be on the voice either, Joe.

Trevor:

I mean,

Joe:

after all, it's not the first time a politician has I implied similar

Joe:

things about another politician.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Mind you.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

It's pretty racist language, so

Joe:

Well highlighting somebody's color.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

It's quite funny.

Joe:

I've used the term black fella in front of English friends and they've been choked.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

and yet I don't think it has a pejorative meaning over here.

Joe:

I.

Trevor:

I think it might be one of those words where if indigenous

Trevor:

people use it, then it's not racist.

Trevor:

It's okay.

Trevor:

Is it a bit like the N word?

Trevor:

We are only, we're only, I

Joe:

I, I don't know that it's ever been used as an epithet, as as an insult.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

I dunno where the current Deandre lines are on that one.

Trevor:

I don't think I'd use it.

Trevor:

I think I'd tread away from that one.

Trevor:

it, it's like

Joe:

using the term mob.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

I think mob's okay.

Joe:

But, but again, I've had English friends go, what?

Joe:

You can't call a tribe a mob.

Joe:

And it's like, that's, that's the, the pigeon English, isn't it?

Joe:

Mm.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Joe:

So, yeah, it's, it's interesting.

Joe:

I.

Joe:

People's sensibilities around language.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Dear listener, I was going to launch into a bit of a stu point

Trevor:

about can grievance be inherited?

Trevor:

also looking at, well, is everybody disadvantaged in the indigenous community

Trevor:

or is it only some, we got here first, therefore we have more rights than you.

Trevor:

rights can be transferred through ancestry, bit like Noble Englishman can.

Trevor:

his indigenous decision making, democratic, are there class

Trevor:

divisions in indigenous communities are inherited privileges fair?

Trevor:

is identity politics divisive?

Trevor:

Where does Martin Luther King fit in all of this stuff?

Trevor:

You know what, I've already done it.

Trevor:

Episode 2 1 3.

Trevor:

Just go and listen to it.

Trevor:

I did it with the 12th man.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

And Scott was missing again.

Trevor:

Scott had some sort of internet problem.

Trevor:

I don't know what he had on, but it's unreliable.

Trevor:

That guy.

Trevor:

I, I dunno.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

Just kinda getting the

Trevor:

staff.

Trevor:

It's good.

Trevor:

I think he'd gone and walk about, I I think

Joe:

you should slash his pay.

Trevor:

I think so.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

it's all there.

Trevor:

Episode two and three, just all the, the hard rational shay unemotional arguments.

Trevor:

The Mr.

Trevor:

Spock approach to this whole thing is there in episode 2 1 3.

Trevor:

Did it with the 12th man, as you know, dear listener, the 12th man

Trevor:

and I sort of fell out eventually over different things, mostly to do

Trevor:

with Covid and that was not unusual.

Trevor:

Like lots of people fell out with people over covid, didn't they?

Trevor:

And we were just, that was, you know, we were, we were in that situation,

Trevor:

but on indigenous matters, we were pretty much of the same mind

Trevor:

of on most things and still are.

Trevor:

I would think so.

Trevor:

so yeah, if you miss the 12th man's voice and you wanna hear

Trevor:

those arguments, then episode 2 1 3 is there, go and listen to it.

Trevor:

I thought what I might do is just, oh, in the chat room,

Trevor:

Broman says, read your audio clip.

Trevor:

It sounded me like you were talking about the voice as a possible

Trevor:

third chamber of parliament.

Trevor:

That's not what we are considering now, of course, I think at the

Trevor:

time we weren't quite sure.

Trevor:

Broman where it was gonna be like, that was four years

Trevor:

ago, episode 99, 6 years ago.

Trevor:

Anyway, yeah, bear in mind there, it's sort of a bit of ancient times

Trevor:

that we were talking about it there.

Trevor:

so I thought I'd, I've been keeping a collection of things that people have

Trevor:

been saying and I, I think for the remaining 16 minutes might just run

Trevor:

through some of them and just through some thoughts that I had, and see if

Trevor:

it promotes any thinking with you.

Trevor:

Dear listener.

Trevor:

So, Joe, I got one here.

Trevor:

This is just sort of ideas that I, I wrote down mm-hmm.

Trevor:

At different times.

Trevor:

can the Yes.

Trevor:

Promoters give a single example of an idea that will be tried or raised because of

Trevor:

the voice that hasn't already Just one.

Trevor:

Positive initiative.

Trevor:

I'm genuinely can't I, I hear the argument that if we are listening to the voice,

Trevor:

then we will get more information.

Trevor:

We will get what people, what indigenous people want rather

Trevor:

than what white people impose.

Trevor:

And I'm yet to hear an example of, for example, if only there'd been the

Trevor:

voice, we would've had this program in place or that program in place.

Trevor:

Oh, we wouldn't have had, yes.

Trevor:

So if somebody could tell me that sort of thing, I would be interested to know.

Trevor:

The only thing I can think of is what that education lady was saying about

Trevor:

indigenous education last week, as the only example of what she would like

Trevor:

to institute if a voice is around I, I

Joe:

wonder whether the Northern Territory intervention would've happened.

Joe:

Had there been a voice.

Joe:

But, but again, I, I think the community was divided.

Joe:

I think there were some people that thought it needed to

Trevor:

happen.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Shaa also said that

Joe:

mm-hmm.

Joe:

The intervention.

Trevor:

here's another one, like if we had an indigenous Prime

Trevor:

minister, would we need the voice?

Trevor:

I mean, it's all about people not listening to us not being heard.

Trevor:

If actual Prime Minister was indigenous, would that satisfy that requirement?

Joe:

I was gonna say, did, did women feel heard when Julie

Joe:

Gillard was Prime Minister?

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

Just a thought out there.

Trevor:

If you, if, if the argument is that indigenous voices are not

Trevor:

heard, if for example, there was an indigenous Prime Minister, would

Trevor:

that satisfy that need to be heard?

Joe:

Joel is saying the cashless welfare card, but I think, I think that was class

Joe:

warfare rather than colored warfare.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

and the cashless card, what did indigenous people say about that?

Trevor:

I mean, it would've been a mixed review on that card.

Trevor:

Probably.

Trevor:

I dunno, it would've been hard to get an agreement on

Trevor:

that card, I would've thought.

Joe:

I think the majority of people thought it was a bad move.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

because, it, it had unforeseen consequences.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

for instance, you couldn't buy secondhand, you had to buy from a shop.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

so yeah, it, it, it had more impact than was immediately obvious.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

and, and I dunno whether having a black voice to Parliament would've been

Joe:

any more beneficial than having white people who were equally affected by it.

Trevor:

Mm.

Trevor:

just if there was an indigenous Prime minister, I mean, b Barack

Trevor:

Obama was a black president.

Trevor:

Mm dunno that he did anything for black people in America that was

Trevor:

particularly be official for them.

Trevor:

didn't he bombed the Iraq?

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

can't think of too much that he did that was actually, beneficial

Trevor:

in particular for black people in America that No, no, he wouldn't

Joe:

have happened.

Joe:

He, he was less shit than the previous president.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Wasn't pretty low bar.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Joe:

I, I've always maintained that Obama was the best Republican

Joe:

president we've had in years.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

yes.

Trevor:

Well, Tony Blair was the best conservative.

Trevor:

Yes, yes.

Trevor:

And really, wasn't it Margaret Thatcher who said something like, You know,

Trevor:

the best measure of her success was that she was succeeded by Tony Blair.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Because she had transformed the Labor Party into her own image.

Trevor:

So it didn't matter whether the Tories were in or not.

Joe:

yeah, I mean, given that Kinnick, I think was the previous labor leader.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

and was very, very different.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

I guess the point I'm making here is if you get people in who

Trevor:

represent the identity group that you are worried about mm-hmm.

Trevor:

It doesn't mean that they actually do, or the identity group what you might hope

Trevor:

they would do, which is counterproductive to the, you know, I wasn't really

Trevor:

running an argument, I was just sort of asking if there was an indigenous

Trevor:

Prime Minister, would that satisfy you?

Trevor:

These are thought experiments for you to argue about in the chat room.

Trevor:

I can see from and furiously typing and probably Shay as well.

Trevor:

I guess it might depend if the indigenous PM was the right

Trevor:

sort of indigenous man or not.

Trevor:

yeah.

Trevor:

Again, define the right sort.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

in Britain, just recently, I remember seeing an example where gender and skin

Trevor:

color, ranked beneath economic philosophy when it comes to good decision making.

Trevor:

So there was a Minister for Women and Equalities, she was female and

Trevor:

she was arguing that wanting women to be supported through menopause in

Trevor:

the workplace was a left wing idea.

Trevor:

So it was a tour, e m p female who was arguing against, menopause leave

Trevor:

and things like that for women.

Trevor:

So just because you get somebody in who is on the face of it, part of your

Trevor:

identity group, doesn't mean they'll actually do things for your identity

Joe:

group.

Joe:

Well, isn't it Javid, whatever a name is.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

Who is I believe of Indian heritage who is anti-immigration.

Trevor:

Yes, exactly.

Joe:

it's, it's, it's like hanging Your parents were immigrants.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

And now you are

Trevor:

anti-immigrant.

Trevor:

Funnily enough, if you happen to be in the billionaire class, you generally

Trevor:

do support billionaire policies.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Strange

Joe:

that.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

And of course Rishi, whose Yeah.

Joe:

Wife is the

Trevor:

daughter of India's Infosys.

Joe:

Infosys, one of the huge tech companies in India.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yep.

Trevor:

let me scroll through some things.

Trevor:

some of the people I followed on Twitter, who I would normally agree

Trevor:

with on things, emergency bushfire kits.

Trevor:

If you think the voice will be racist, please detail which inequality

Trevor:

you'll suffer, what discrimination you'll experience, and which of

Trevor:

your rights will be oppressed by.

Trevor:

first Nations people having a voice on issues that specifically

Trevor:

affect First Nations people.

Trevor:

So,

Trevor:

but they aren't

Joe:

asking for a voice that merely speaks on issues that,

Joe:

overly affects indigenous people.

Joe:

They're asking for the ability to, comment on all laws, aren't

Trevor:

they?

Trevor:

So presumably, so far as they affect in, in the way that all laws, in the

Trevor:

way they might affect indigenous people is what they're being asked to do, but.

Trevor:

Let me read a definition of racism from Wikipedia.

Trevor:

Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another.

Trevor:

It may also include prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed

Trevor:

against other people because they are of a different race or ethnicity, or the

Trevor:

belief that members of different races or ethnicities should be treated differently.

Trevor:

Modern variants of racism are often based in social perceptions of

Trevor:

biological differences between peoples.

Trevor:

These views can take the form of social actions, practices, or beliefs or

Trevor:

political systems in which different races are ranked as inherently

Trevor:

superior or inferior to each other based on presumed shared inheritable

Trevor:

traits, abilities, or qualities.

Trevor:

The essential part of all that is, the belief that members of different races or

Trevor:

ethnicities should be treated differently.

Trevor:

That's kinda racism and.

Trevor:

But racism's.

Joe:

Okay.

Joe:

As long as you're helping the people.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Well this is the point, because somebody has suffered racial prejudice,

Trevor:

implementing a racist policy to overturn the outcome of prior

Trevor:

racial prejudice is a racist policy.

Trevor:

Well meaning, though it may well be, and somebody who objects to the

Trevor:

implementation of a racist policy to, you know, to overturn a previous unjust

Trevor:

result, that doesn't make them racist.

Trevor:

Not agreeing to affirmative action doesn't make you racist.

Trevor:

In fact, you are the opposite.

Trevor:

The people who are wanting the racist policy are being racist,

Trevor:

well-meaning well-intentioned with all the goodwill in the world for a,

Joe:

but race is well-meaning racism requires power.

Joe:

And the black people don't have power, therefore they can't be racist.

Trevor:

Well, it doesn't require power because the most, powerless

Trevor:

person in the world can make a racist statement to anybody or treat somebody.

Trevor:

You can be a, you don't need power to be racist.

Joe:

Well, this is not what they're arguing.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

So, so yeah, I find that, I find dear listener, I was listening to the

Trevor:

7:00 AM podcast today, Schwarz Media, where this lady got on and she was

Trevor:

talking about Peter Dutton adopting the Martin Luther King statement.

Trevor:

You know, the one judge people by the content of their character,

Trevor:

not by the color of their skin.

Trevor:

And she was saying it is ridiculous for Peter Dutton to be using that

Trevor:

argument in the context of the voice.

Trevor:

And look, Peter Dutton's a crummy guy.

Trevor:

His motivations in this are not good.

Trevor:

But even a stops clock, even a stop clock is correct twice.

Trevor:

What infuriated me was she just said, it's ridiculous to use that statement in

Trevor:

this context, and it's not ridiculous.

Trevor:

It's actually a really appropriate time to use it.

Trevor:

And she was also, she was also trying to argue that Martin

Trevor:

Luther King would've been in favor of racist affirmative action.

Trevor:

And that was not what Martin Luther King was about.

Trevor:

He was in fact about just equal rights for everybody.

Trevor:

And in fact, as we've mentioned on multiple occasions, dear listener on

Trevor:

this podcast, he was about class and he spent a lot of time talking about,

Trevor:

gathering in and drawing in the poor working class in the same fight.

Trevor:

For better conditions and, and equality, both rights and financial.

Trevor:

And this woman was just rewriting Martin Luther King history, as we

Trevor:

previously discussed in this podcast.

Trevor:

in the early days, I, I argued that Malcolm X was in fact arguing for

Trevor:

a race-based response to issues.

Trevor:

But even in his later days, he also converted to a class-based argument.

Trevor:

So really super annoyed me.

Trevor:

I'm almost tempted next week to play the 7:00 AM podcast and just, and just really

Trevor:

I'm finding that the argument for the Yes vote when criticizing the no vote

Trevor:

just says things like it's not racist.

Trevor:

It's, the no vote is ridiculous, but doesn't actually

Trevor:

examine the points that are.

Trevor:

Up for discussion, doesn't try to pass the arguments, dig into it and really

Trevor:

talk about whether it is or isn't.

Trevor:

Just saying stuff doesn't make it so you have to explain it and justify it.

Trevor:

So, ah, and

Joe:

you also found that article that was reasons why we should say Yes to a voice.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

But then proceeded to come up with a whole bunch of arguments that just didn't

Joe:

explain why we needed a voice and how a voice would've fixed any of those things.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

So,

Trevor:

did I, yeah, yeah.

Trevor:

I got so many articles.

Trevor:

I've lost track

Joe:

of them, Joe, but yeah, I'm reading it going, is this

Joe:

honestly your best argument?

Joe:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Really poor arguments.

Trevor:

I.

Trevor:

Dare I delve into the chat room here.

Trevor:

ah, no, it's there for posterity.

Trevor:

I'll let you guys argue amongst yourselves for a little bit there.

Trevor:

here's one Ipsy Dixon Tweet.

Trevor:

I'm Jewish.

Trevor:

Most of my family died in concentration camps or ghettos.

Trevor:

Jews were treated as second class citizens.

Trevor:

Now we have a voice.

Trevor:

Everyone deserves a voice.

Trevor:

I am voting.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Well, indigenous people have a voice.

Trevor:

It's called a vote a

Joe:

as much as the Jews do.

Joe:

Yes.

Trevor:

It's called a vote in Parliament.

Trevor:

There are 11 representatives that we know of in federal

Trevor:

parliament who are indigenous.

Trevor:

If the whole point of being a member of parliament is that you represent your

Trevor:

constituency, whether that be mm-hmm.

Trevor:

At a geographical district level.

Trevor:

Or whether that be at a gender level or whether that be at a sexual

Trevor:

preference level, or you bring into the parliament your experience in

Trevor:

life and and represent the people that you know from your life experience.

Trevor:

What, what are these 11 people doing if they're not in the cabinet and

Trevor:

in the shadow cabinet and expressing the views of their constituents,

Trevor:

who wouldn't include one of, one

Joe:

of them?

Joe:

Send a price so we know the

Trevor:

answer.

Trevor:

Yeah, it's, you know, you would read these comments as if indigenous

Trevor:

people didn't have a vote.

Trevor:

Honestly, if you were coming from the outside, fresh into the debate mm-hmm.

Trevor:

With no knowledge of what has gone on.

Trevor:

Say you'd grown up in Columbia or something and you popped in

Trevor:

here and you go, it's terrible.

Trevor:

I.

Trevor:

In people don't have a vote.

Trevor:

We've got to fix that.

Trevor:

That's how you would think if you were reading these comments.

Trevor:

Ah, what have we got here?

Joe:

I mean, Jewish people obviously have

Trevor:

Israel.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

How's that?

Trevor:

How's that working out with, keeping the vision there?

Joe:

Well, of course they were promised the land by God, but then the Palestinians

Joe:

believed that they were there first.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

and there seems to be a bit of tension

Trevor:

there.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

But surely if you got there first, that counts.

Trevor:

Well, apparently not special rights, special ancestral rights.

Trevor:

I mean, no, not according to America in English, nobility.

Trevor:

Own all that land and just pass it down from Duke to Duke.

Trevor:

That's all good.

Trevor:

We don't look at that and complain.

Trevor:

I, I

Joe:

watched, Imperial War Museum documentary on the troubles

Joe:

in Northern Ireland, and of course that goes back 400 years.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

and so obviously even 400 years on after a colonization, the,

Joe:

the Protestant North effectively were, Protestants from Scotland.

Joe:

Mm-hmm.

Joe:

So they, they certainly feel after 400 years they are members of the

Joe:

land, that, that is their home.

Joe:

and the unionists, sorry, the, the nationalists think that they're

Joe:

still invaders after 400 years.

Joe:

Then you go back, and Britain was an Anglo-Saxon land that was

Joe:

invaded by the Normans in 10 66.

Joe:

But prior to that, the Anglo-Saxons, well, the s and the Saxons were invaders

Joe:

from Germany and pushed the Celts out.

Trevor:

So should the Celts, are you, are you saying that we were here

Trevor:

first as not a good argument, Joe?

Trevor:

Well,

Joe:

I'm, I'm saying should the Celts be demanding reparations

Joe:

from the angles and the Saxons

Trevor:

is the point.

Trevor:

Dear listener, if your argument is that they were here first, it'd be like if

Trevor:

we said to both people, well, we don't really want you here, but you can come in.

Trevor:

By the way, there's certain representative bodies that you'll never

Trevor:

be entitled to be a part of because you, 'cause you weren't here first.

Trevor:

Now we don't do that because we are compassionate towards

Trevor:

both people when they get in.

Trevor:

Or we should be and say, well, once you're in, you're a full citizen.

Trevor:

You've got all the rights of everybody else.

Trevor:

Assimilate, we're all in this together.

Trevor:

There's no hierarchy.

Trevor:

It's not a good system of social structure to reserve special rights for people

Trevor:

who are here first, or were descended from people who are here first and in

Trevor:

places where they're attempting to at.

Trevor:

At what point do you give in and say, okay, we're all one now.

Trevor:

We've mixed, we're done.

Trevor:

It's over.

Trevor:

At what point I, I think the answer is we need a war.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

That'll bring us together.

Trevor:

It's, it's

Joe:

amazing how unifying a war is for a nation.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

I

Joe:

I do mean that kind of tongue in cheek about needing a war, but, it seems

Trevor:

after the war people just argue about the same stuff anyway.

Trevor:

Don't they?

Trevor:

Like America's been at war.

Trevor:

America's been at war.

Trevor:

Whatcha are talking about America's been at war for its entire history.

Trevor:

And they're more

Joe:

divided than they joke.

Joe:

They're, they're, they're foreign wars, though.

Joe:

They're not

Trevor:

threats to no extension.

Trevor:

You need, you, you need one in your own soil.

Trevor:

A true, absolutely existential threat to bring you together.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

And

Joe:

maybe not war I, it's more bushfire, tsunami.

Joe:

There is something about a adversity mm-hmm.

Joe:

That makes people forget about the differences and work together.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

I think, I think it has.

Trevor:

I think it wears off a,

Joe:

Andrew says those ess have it coming.

Joe:

It's like we lost the first time round.

Joe:

We're not going for a second round.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Uh uh Oh, where are we?

Trevor:

look, if you're gonna write me a nasty email, just listen to episode 2 1 3.

Trevor:

First off, a lot of sorts of things that I've just sort

Trevor:

of skimmed over have been, I.

Trevor:

Examined more in detail there more justification for the flippant

Trevor:

ranting that I've done at this point.

Trevor:

But, but it does boil down to we were here first is not a good argument.

Trevor:

Inherited ancestral rights are not good.

Trevor:

As a lefty, I'm looking at taxing inherited property rights.

Trevor:

Like they shouldn't be passed on forever and ever.

Trevor:

There's gotta be a redistribution, grievance is not inherited if

Trevor:

you didn't suffer it yourself.

Trevor:

My father was a prisoner of war against the Japanese.

Trevor:

I do not inherit his grievance against the Japanese.

Trevor:

Doesn't work that way.

Trevor:

There's, a whole range of, I.

Trevor:

Just concepts that are accepted here in this argument that are not accepted,

Trevor:

if you think about it rationally and applied in other circumstances.

Trevor:

But that's often the case.

Joe:

Special pleading always comes out, doesn't it?

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Part of it is this empathy thing.

Trevor:

I was reading a book.

Trevor:

There is a book by Paul Bloom about empathy.

Trevor:

I've got it here, which was really, they do these experiments where they

Trevor:

say to people, I think there was one where they, a girl who was a

Trevor:

terminal illness or something, cancer.

Trevor:

Put yourself in her shoes.

Trevor:

Think of her physician.

Trevor:

Think of her family.

Trevor:

Think of the final weeks she's got left.

Trevor:

Think of the sadness in the family.

Trevor:

Immerse yourself in the, in the feelings that she and her family would have now.

Trevor:

The hospital has to make a decision about waiting lists.

Trevor:

And do you put this girl at the front of the list or not?

Trevor:

And of course, people who had done that empathetic immersion mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Said of course she goes to the front.

Trevor:

Meanwhile, of course there was a whole bunch of other people who

Trevor:

therefore are then pushed back when this girl gets to the front.

Trevor:

And the control group who weren't imbued with, who weren't told, immerse yourself

Trevor:

into empathetic feeling for this girl.

Trevor:

But just think about this and what's the right thing to do would

Trevor:

come to a different conclusion.

Trevor:

And I think there is a lot of that happening where people feel that

Trevor:

there's been terrible things done, terrible suffering has happened in

Trevor:

the past that needs to be rectified and this is the only way to do it.

Trevor:

And this will asua white guilt.

Joe:

It might assuage white guilt.

Joe:

I don't think it'll fix things, and I don't think it will assuage the

Joe:

people who are feeling hard done by.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Joe:

talking about the whole empathy thing, there have been lots of cases

Joe:

with, drugs that are either incredibly expensive where there's been a

Joe:

political push to get these drugs, you know, specialist cancer drugs for

Joe:

people who are terminally ill mm-hmm.

Joe:

Funded, and they're like, yeah, a hundred thousand a year or something.

Joe:

And they're going, we could treat one person with maybe a

Joe:

20% chance, it'll help them.

Joe:

Or we can fund, you know, a hundred people with something that we know cures them.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

and with limited resources you have to prioritize.

Joe:

And the other one was, in America, they now have a right to try law.

Joe:

Where if your terminal or none of the medications have worked,

Joe:

you have the right to try,

Trevor:

something that's not f d a approved

Joe:

or whatever, which allows them to bypass all these approval

Joe:

process and sneak in the back door

Trevor:

effectively.

Trevor:

Mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

So there we go.

Trevor:

the chat room's been busy.

Trevor:

I hope it's still being quite civil in there.

Trevor:

I think it has been.

Trevor:

I think you're pretty good in there.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

That even if you disagree, then there

Joe:

might be some light-hearted teasing, but

Trevor:

yes, I think generally pretty good.

Trevor:

One of the things I'm proud of in this podcast, Joe mm-hmm.

Trevor:

Is the chat room has a good mix of male and female and is generally civil.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

In fact, I, I think we can agree

Joe:

to

Trevor:

disagree on many things.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Full marks to the chat room for your civil commentary.

Trevor:

Well, an hour and 10 of.

Trevor:

There's only so much you can do with this indigenous stuff.

Trevor:

But yeah, I do recommend episode 213.

Trevor:

It's quite well laid out, I think.

Trevor:

Have a listen to that and, we will talk again.

Trevor:

Yes, Don, you get gold stars,

Trevor:

right?

Trevor:

I think.

Trevor:

And now, next week we were, this week we're supposed to have Liam

Trevor:

and Scott arguing over the greens, but Scott had internet issues and

Trevor:

Liam coincidentally had another engagement, so fingers crossed.

Trevor:

Dear listener, next week we will have, Scott and Liam debating the greens.

Trevor:

That'll be fun.

Trevor:

Hey, you're providing boxing gloves?

Trevor:

well, Liam's in Brisbane.

Trevor:

Scott's in Rockhampton.

Trevor:

Uzbekistan somewhere.

Trevor:

Yeah, I think we'll be fine.

Trevor:

How's that counter offensive in the Ukraine going, Joe?

Joe:

Are they apparently there has been a breakthrough police snuck, right?

Trevor:

You are kidding.

Trevor:

What?

Trevor:

Seriously.

Trevor:

Yeah, seriously,

Joe:

there has been, are Ukrainian

Trevor:

break

Joe:

are Ukrainian breakthrough?

Joe:

Yeah, there's been a Ukrainian breakthrough.

Joe:

We'll talk about that next

Trevor:

week.

Trevor:

Be interesting to see how it goes.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Alright.

Trevor:

Shay says she will start being, if Scott's internet stuff's up, go on Shaney.

Trevor:

You're always welcome back.

Trevor:

Alright, we'll be back next week.

Trevor:

Thanks for tuning in.

Trevor:

Bye for an hour.

Trevor:

Alright, well it's a good night from me and it's a good night from him.

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