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Episode 393 - Affirmative Action Vs Adversity Scores
In this episode we discuss:
(00:00) 398
(00:43) Intro
(10:31) Global Warming
(14:13) Newscorp and AI
(16:38) Sinead O'Connor
(20:00) Australia USA Relations
(34:34) Trump Polls
(36:46) Indigenous Education
(48:53) Proposition 209
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Transcript
Suburban Eastern Australia.
Speaker:An environment that has over time evolved some extraordinarily
Speaker:unique groups of homo sapiens.
Speaker:But today we observe a small tribe akin to a group of Meca that gather together
Speaker:atop a small mound to watch question and discuss the current events of their city,
Speaker:their country, and their world at large.
Speaker:Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the
Speaker:Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:We are back episode 393, the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove Podcast
Speaker:where we talk about news and politics and sex and religion.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:I'm Trevor, a k a, the Iron Fist with me as always, Scott, the Velvet.
Speaker:Glove.
Speaker:Good day, Trevor.
Speaker:Good day, Joe.
Speaker:Good day listeners.
Speaker:I hope everyone's
Speaker:well.
Speaker:We're all well and Joe the tech guy.
Speaker:Evening.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So yes, another episode.
Speaker:What are we gonna talk about tonight?
Speaker:What's been going on in Australia and around the world?
Speaker:Let me see.
Speaker:We're gonna be talking about, just a quick mention about global warming,
Speaker:a little bit about AI News Corp.
Speaker:Richard Miles defense minister.
Speaker:A bit about, indigenous education and a little bit about
Speaker:California and Proposition 2 0 9, I think it was, what was it?
Speaker:California was Proposition 2 0 9, which was when they removed affirmative
Speaker:action and replaced it with.
Speaker:He's sort of a diversity score, so, or no, an adversity score.
Speaker:So we talk about that.
Speaker:Alright, if you are listening on your podcast app, you'll see chapters
Speaker:don't like any of those topics.
Speaker:You can skip over 'em and you'll see pictures occasionally with the chapters.
Speaker:'cause sometimes there's some graphs or some charts.
Speaker:So you'll see those Thanks to Nick at Izzy.
Speaker:Hello Nick who listens occasionally before we get onto stuff, got contacted.
Speaker:Remember I said that Liam, one of our listeners, gets
Speaker:frustrated with Scott because he.
Speaker:Who poos the greens that in reality probably should be voting for them.
Speaker:And, and it's quite dismissive of them.
Speaker:Shouldn't be voting for them.
Speaker:It's quite dismissive of them without good reason.
Speaker:It was felt by Liam and others probably no doubt.
Speaker:So, I suggested Liam should have a debate with you and he, he got in contact
Speaker:and said, yeah, that's a good idea.
Speaker:So Scott, he's emailed you with some topics and thoughts and hopefully next
Speaker:week he'll come on and you'll have to justify this obstinate position you have
Speaker:for no good reason against the greens.
Speaker:I've got some very good reasons.
Speaker:We'll see how good they are.
Speaker:That'll be fine.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:exactly.
Speaker:And you know, it's, it's like in his email and all that sort of stuff, I
Speaker:don't disagree with a hell of a lot.
Speaker:He is written there, but yes, there's just one overriding
Speaker:reason why I can't trust them.
Speaker:So anyway, I'll leave that till next week.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:Well what's the one, what's the one overriding reason?
Speaker:Just remind us.
Speaker:Don't have to give a secret.
Speaker:It's all open.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Alright, that's fine.
Speaker:We wanna a full and frank
Speaker:discussion here.
Speaker:Alright, well what's the one, what's the
Speaker:one overriding reason?
Speaker:They are the party of protest and you know, you have only have to look at
Speaker:the way they're two elder statesmen, Bob Brown and what's her name?
Speaker:They're woman that took over after he left Christine Mill.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You know, the way the two of them hold up protestors, like they're some
Speaker:sort of sacrosanct person that can't be ever criticized or anything else.
Speaker:And you know, I tend to agree with them over their opposition
Speaker:to the state governments that are trying to crack down on protesters.
Speaker:But surely protest is something that's only temporary and.
Speaker:While I agreed with, a lot of the climate change protests that were
Speaker:actually going on, you know, the sort of infantile manner in which they blocked
Speaker:traffic and did that type of thing.
Speaker:I honestly believe that that sort of protest, it's just
Speaker:designed to piss people off.
Speaker:It's really sticks in people's throat and it doesn't do anything.
Speaker:So that sort of protest, I can understand why the state government
Speaker:wants to crack down on that.
Speaker:You know, the Adani coal mine disaster was an absolute fucking joke, and that was
Speaker:Bob Brown that was actually pushing that.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, now that was an absolute disaster for the
Speaker:Labor Party because the greens.
Speaker:Were asked not to do it.
Speaker:They went around, gave the middle finger back to them and said,
Speaker:no, we're gonna do it anyway.
Speaker:So they drove their electric vehicles up through, set up
Speaker:through Central Queensland.
Speaker:And
Speaker:so their main reason is you feel I have an infantile style of
Speaker:protesting, which is counterproductive.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:They do.
Speaker:Does that it in a nutshell, that's it in a
Speaker:nutshell, and part of it is already starting to creep into Parliament with
Speaker:Max Chandler, whatever his name is.
Speaker:You know, it's What did he do?
Speaker:Infantile in Parliament.
Speaker:Well, okay.
Speaker:It's just the whole process that they're saying that we've got to, you know,
Speaker:they, they've, they've blocking, they're blocking Labor's policy on housing.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:They're blocking it because the, the Labor Party will not let them have a
Speaker:rent freeze and that type of thing.
Speaker:They're refusing to listen to anything.
Speaker:They're just demanding
Speaker:rent freezes.
Speaker:Blocking it once, got 'em an extra $2 billion.
Speaker:Well, no.
Speaker:Got him an extra $2 billion, but that's nothing, you know,
Speaker:it's one of those things.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:They blocked it once, but now it's blocked and they, they're
Speaker:now gonna block it again.
Speaker:And what's the point, you know, all it's done is given the, is given the
Speaker:government, the double dissolution trigger, which they probably
Speaker:won't pull because they've bet everything on the, voice referendum.
Speaker:So I don't think that they'd be stupid enough to go in for, I don't think
Speaker:they'd be stupid enough to also go in for a double dissolution while that
Speaker:was on the, on the table, because they're probably gonna lose that.
Speaker:So I don't think they're gonna actually do that.
Speaker:But would it really matter if they did actually take
Speaker:them apart on housing policy?
Speaker:No, I don't think it
Speaker:would.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:If that's the, that's your main complaint against the greens
Speaker:is the, the style of infantile?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Productive protest.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Well that'll give Liam something to work with.
Speaker:Yeah, no, you,
Speaker:you, you setting me up for failure, which is fine.
Speaker:No, I'm just saying he's got, giving him something to work with.
Speaker:That's now he knows your position more clearly.
Speaker:He can try and convince you despite you.
Speaker:Well, he can try, but he's going to fail because I'm not interested.
Speaker:Oh,
Speaker:was it, was it with you the other day?
Speaker:I can't remember where this happened, where I, I had to admit
Speaker:that I don't think I've ever changed anybody's mind on anything.
Speaker:Was it, were we doing that live on this podcast or was that in
Speaker:private at a pizza function?
Speaker:I can't remember, but,
Speaker:well, that was probably at the, pub when we were there on Saturday, weren't they?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just like, I really can't remember changing somebody's mind.
Speaker:So, Liam, in all the years I've been doing this podcast and all the arguments
Speaker:I've made and the 50,000 downloads or whatever it is, I really don't know
Speaker:that I've changed anybody's mind.
Speaker:On anything, if they were had a firm opinion, if they were a bit 50 50
Speaker:and were ready to be swayed, okay.
Speaker:I might have tipped somebody one way or another, but I don't know that
Speaker:I've actually turned somebody around.
Speaker:So in a significant way, Trevor, what's your best
Speaker:evidence for that?
Speaker:Because,
Speaker:' cause nobody's ever told me, nobody's
Speaker:Maybe they've surely they would if they had, here's your chance in the chat room.
Speaker:Have I changed?
Speaker:Have I ever changed your mind on anything?
Speaker:Mind ranting John.
Speaker:He agrees with, he agrees that the Velvet
Speaker:Glove on that one, so that's fine.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:Shay's there.
Speaker:Good day, Shay.
Speaker:How are you?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Shay's there as well.
Speaker:Shay.
Speaker:Shay felt that a lot of my arguments, while logically correct,
Speaker:fail to take into account the passion and the emotion of people.
Speaker:And because you're soulless.
Speaker:Well, I was thinking, I was thinking of it, Shane.
Speaker:Just, just call me Mr.
Speaker:Spock.
Speaker:Is that, is that, is that the argument, Shane?
Speaker:That it's a,
Speaker:it's a Mr.
Speaker:Spock.
Speaker:I don't think Mr.
Speaker:Spock would actually be opposed to Ukraine actually fighting back, you know?
Speaker:Oh, well that's another one we can argue about.
Speaker:Dan, Dan in the chat room says, have you ever turned anyone?
Speaker:Well, that's a very leading question.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Not that, not in that way, Don.
Speaker:not in that way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So look,
Speaker:that's enough chitchat.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:We're quite confronting, Shay, you know, I, I'm gonna deal with
Speaker:that, that accusation over time.
Speaker:You've cut me deep with that one.
Speaker:Hang on.
Speaker:You're saying you feel that Yeah, I do.
Speaker:I do feel it, and Mr.
Speaker:Spock wouldn't feel it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So there you go.
Speaker:No, Mr.
Speaker:Spock is actually half human, half Vulcan, so he still has some part
Speaker:of him with his human Yeah.
Speaker:He understands human emotion.
Speaker:He just presses them.
Speaker:He understands and just works with it.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:He says, well, of course you're gonna charge off over that hill
Speaker:madly without even thinking about it.
Speaker:Off you going, I, I know you're gonna do that.
Speaker:Maybe I, maybe he'll occasionally apply one of those Vulcan grips to sort of knock
Speaker:Kirk out to stop him from hurting himself.
Speaker:But otherwise he, he's sort of fully aware of human nature
Speaker:and just takes it into account.
Speaker:Anyway.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeahing out anybody out there if I've changed your mind on
Speaker:anything of significance anyway,
Speaker:you have changed my mind over China, but I'm still disagreeing with you over
Speaker:Taiwan because the Republic of China is an independent country and should be left
Speaker:alone.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Okay, let's talk about, oh, I had these in the wrong order, but let's talk
Speaker:quickly about what's been in the news lately and I reckon, global warming.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In the news lately was no, doesn't know exist.
Speaker:No, no, it doesn't exist.
Speaker:So there's a chart showing, the temperature in a red line for 2023,
Speaker:which is way past what the last, and, and all those gray lines are basically
Speaker:temperatures since the 1940s every year.
Speaker:And the colored lines are recent years.
Speaker:The red one is the current 2023.
Speaker:Clearly we are, a couple of degrees higher than we were 80 years ago
Speaker:and or, yeah, about eight years ago.
Speaker:And, you know, stories coming out of Europe with incredibly hot summer and.
Speaker:Hi.
Speaker:Many events happening, it's all just gonna get worse, and I can't see anything being
Speaker:done of any significance to change it.
Speaker:And, you know, at 59 years of age, I turn later this month,
Speaker:give me another 20 on this planet.
Speaker:I'll probably not see the worst of it, I'd say.
Speaker:But, it's the younger people who are going to be paying the
Speaker:price and it's gonna get ugly.
Speaker:And I, I'm
Speaker:curious as to how they calculate the global temperature.
Speaker:I think they've got a, a statistical bias of, weather stations
Speaker:in the Northern Hemisphere.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Because of course, in the southern hemisphere it's winter and therefore
Speaker:you'd think that the warmer day would be assuming the same number of stations
Speaker:north and south of the, the equator, that you'd get kind of a, a, a permanent
Speaker:balance.
Speaker:Wouldn't it just be an average of all of the surface temperatures over the globe?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What I'm saying is on average, they're two, two degrees higher.
Speaker:Oh, no, no.
Speaker:But if you look at it, it's 17 degrees.
Speaker:Oh, I see what you're saying.
Speaker:Of the, well, our global surface air temperature, I guess on the oceans.
Speaker:I, I'm just thinking that, you know, maybe we've got half a million stations
Speaker:north of the equator and, a quarter of a million south of the equator
Speaker:just because there's less land mass.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I don't know, Joe, I,
Speaker:I would've expected the average to be lower, is what I'm saying.
Speaker:Oh, I see.
Speaker:Lower than 17 degrees.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:I assume the statistic, the guardian grew up because Yeah.
Speaker:If
Speaker:you look 1st of January, average temperature 13 degrees, 31st of
Speaker:December, 13 degrees, middle of June.
Speaker:Or middle of July 17 degrees.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:So it's obviously fo following a northern hemisphere heat cycle.
Speaker:Hmm, good point.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just curious.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Well, that's, yeah, that's
Speaker:clearly, it's clearly something that they've taken from the
Speaker:northern hemisphere, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:But it does say global.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Good point, Joe.
Speaker:We'll look into that statistic.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:See what the story is.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Well, it'd be interesting to see what the,
Speaker:what the, data was from the Southern hemisphere.
Speaker:Wouldn't it?
Speaker:You'd assume that it'd be higher in December and January, but lower in July.
Speaker:We'll see what the explanation is for that one, but yeah.
Speaker:May.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Point.
Speaker:Jane, you're right.
Speaker:North and south, equaled out.
Speaker:Should be.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Hello?
Speaker:Somebody sent us some, spam.
Speaker:Spam and he's really going for it.
Speaker:Glorious.
Speaker:Spam.
Speaker:Spam.
Speaker:Spam.
Speaker:Alright, onto the first topic.
Speaker:well that was global warming.
Speaker:AI is in the news a lot.
Speaker:Scott, are you using any AI in your day-to-day work?
Speaker:No, I'm not.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Joe, are you sorry, using ai?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I get the feeling, people are using it to construct initial emails,
Speaker:which they then massage or maybe reports or things they have to do.
Speaker:They want something to start, give them a head start on something
Speaker:that's typical use of ai.
Speaker:using it to clean up things.
Speaker:Maybe they've prepared a report or an email that they want sort of the
Speaker:grammar checked or just tightened up.
Speaker:So, anyway, from the shovel, they've, they've done some investigative work and
Speaker:News Corp Australia revealed this week they're using artificial intelligence
Speaker:to generate 3000 articles a week.
Speaker:That's actually true.
Speaker:So they admitted that they're doing that and they're saying that it's
Speaker:sort of overseen by real people, but a lot of stuff is generated.
Speaker:3000 articles a week.
Speaker:The News Corp generated by AI and, the shovel claims they were leaked.
Speaker:A chat G p t screenshot showing the prompts used to write one of the articles.
Speaker:This is the real skill I think, Joe, with, AI and Chat G P T is the prompts
Speaker:that you ask for the little recipe that you use to get what you want.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And, this is apparently what people are using in News Corp.
Speaker:For example, write an article about how wokeness is causing
Speaker:inflation in Australia.
Speaker:Must include the words.
Speaker:African gangs cancel culture, Anzac spirit, young people
Speaker:just don't wanna work anymore.
Speaker:And it's not racist because Muslim is not a race.
Speaker:The article must also link rising inflation to the increase in the
Speaker:number of gender neutral toilets.
Speaker:Demonize a prominent Australian woman for speaking her mind
Speaker:without asking permission.
Speaker:Include three entire paragraphs on the A, B, C.
Speaker:Use the word elitist unironically when referring to people who criticize
Speaker:mining and media billionaires and include a wildly inaccurate pie chart.
Speaker:I think they also left out, must somehow criticize Credit Thunberg along the way.
Speaker:So I think that, I think that's actually how they probably
Speaker:are producing them in there.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Scott Ade O'Connor, were you a fan?
Speaker:She passed away.
Speaker:Well, I knew she died and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker:I couldn't work out how she died.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:because she apparently became a Muslim and all that sort of stuff later in life.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, Assume she was not a well woman.
Speaker:I assume that,
Speaker:sorry.
Speaker:Said she was not a well woman.
Speaker:Yeah, I
Speaker:know.
Speaker:And I knew she had been institutionalized and all that sort of stuff throughout
Speaker:her life, so I thought to myself, maybe she might've topped herself
Speaker:with drugs or something like that.
Speaker:But they, the family has, has not given a cause of death.
Speaker:So it's purely just speculation
Speaker:as to how she actually died.
Speaker:Seems to be when that's not revealed that the assumption
Speaker:is it's something like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So on the plus side in 1992, she ripped up a picture of John Paul, a Pope John
Speaker:Paul II on US television in protest against the pedophile church officials.
Speaker:A week later, she was booed off the stage at Madison Square Garden during
Speaker:an all-star tribute to Bob Dylan.
Speaker:The crowd didn't like her, ripping up a picture of the Pope.
Speaker:So
Speaker:that was before, spotlight.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You've seen the movie?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Probably at the time people thought, what are you talking about?
Speaker:It couldn't possibly be pedophilia in the Catholic church.
Speaker:What terrible thing to suggest.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:You know, what, if it pop started today, probably still protest
Speaker:and get booed off the stage.
Speaker:Why accept the truth?
Speaker:Don't
Speaker:know.
Speaker:Actually,
Speaker:I think
Speaker:there'd be a very different sort of behavior now because we've,
Speaker:you know, everyone's accepted it that it is a fact of life
Speaker:that,
Speaker:the priesthood is fi full of kitty fiddlers.
Speaker:So as a result, I, I think to myself that they, they don't have any, any leg to
Speaker:stand on Really.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But in America, Trump is still leading the polls.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:With all that's going on.
Speaker:So it doesn't matter that Yes, the, the Catholic church is guilty of pedophilia.
Speaker:There would still be, people will be going.
Speaker:Well, we're still to vote for him.
Speaker:You can't do that.
Speaker:You can't abuse our, our religion even.
Speaker:That's, that's the, to do with the primaries, isn't it?
Speaker:This is where he is got the
Speaker:Gallup leading, isn't it?
Speaker:Well, he is leading the Republican primaries.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But if there was a vote today on the current polls, he would win.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Well, that's a concern.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So who knows what would happen if, if a pop star abused the Catholic church
Speaker:in the anything's possible in that country, but on the, sort of, on the
Speaker:minor side, in 2018, she converted to Islam, calling it the natural conclusion
Speaker:of any intelligent theologian's journey.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:God knows how.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You trouble we
Speaker:saw, we never saw her wearing a hijab or anything like that, did
Speaker:we?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:There are photos of her wearing hijab.
Speaker:Oh, there are other, okay.
Speaker:Is, and she changed her name as
Speaker:well.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And this is kind of the point that somebody made, is that in Western media,
Speaker:the photos that have come out of her are all, all ignore that aspect of her life.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And perhaps a sign of just a western, bias, if you like.
Speaker:Fair point.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:closer to home Australia, u s a relations.
Speaker:So it was announced that U Ss a spies are now gonna be embedded
Speaker:in our defense force to help us.
Speaker:that was how it was originally reported by the A, B, C.
Speaker:And then they changed the headline shortly afterwards to call it u
Speaker:s A analysts rather than spies.
Speaker:But hey.
Speaker:Spies embedded in our defense force.
Speaker:'cause heaven forbid, analysts Yes, heaven forbid we couldn't possibly do it ourself.
Speaker:And we,
Speaker:and I thought it was a s d they were being embedded in
Speaker:mm-hmm.
Speaker:A s d Australian
Speaker:Signals Directorate.
Speaker:It's the same as the N Ss a.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Is that part of defense?
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:So they monitor
Speaker:enemy communications.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So let's just have another country's, you know, well, we've already got
Speaker:patriotic citizens within our own.
Speaker:We've already got
Speaker:what's said, haven't we?
Speaker:What's the huge N s A
Speaker:gap?
Speaker:Post pine gap.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:At least, at least with that, it's theirs and they run it.
Speaker:And we don't even pretend, but Well, but having them wandering
Speaker:around our own corridors, snooping around on our behalf sake.
Speaker:Five.
Speaker:Five Fires was all about spying on your own citizens, which
Speaker:of course is against the law.
Speaker:So you get another country to do it on your behalf and pass you the information
Speaker:they've found and you do it for them.
Speaker:Ah, I see.
Speaker:I can hear.
Speaker:And that's exactly
Speaker:what they do.
Speaker:They've got the British, that spy on the Americans and the Canadian
Speaker:Spy on the Americans, you know, over here probably the ki we spy on us.
Speaker:We spy on them.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Anyway, it's just ludicrous to have U Ss a spies embedded within our own apparatus.
Speaker:It's insane.
Speaker:we're gonna make some missiles to sell to them apparently.
Speaker:I dunno how we're gonna suddenly acquire the skills to make missiles,
Speaker:but we're gonna make missiles to sell to the US and well, I thought
Speaker:that was what, URA was all about.
Speaker:It was a missile test range down in, south Australia.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:Yeah, but that where we making
Speaker:that, we tested the, that's where we tested the British A bomb,
Speaker:wasn't it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, next door to that was a missile test range, and I thought that was for testing
Speaker:Australian missiles that we'd built.
Speaker:Okay, well we're gonna be building some for the Yanks and Okay.
Speaker:that's, you know, supposed to be happy about that and excited because there's
Speaker:a shortage of ammunition now as the war in Ukraine has apparently shown.
Speaker:And, despite all that, when we ask the US, Hey, what about Julian Assange over
Speaker:there rotting way in Bel Marsh Prison?
Speaker:You reckon you could let him go?
Speaker:Where they say, oh, there's a risk to security and, you know, we have our own
Speaker:interests there, and, you'll just have to understand there's nothing we can do and
Speaker:our authentic Australian government just
Speaker:rolls over.
Speaker:He's, he's rotting in a British
Speaker:prison, isn't he?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Bel Ma is British.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:' cause he hasn't been extradited yet.
Speaker:Okay, so the, the Britts are arguing about his extradition in the courts, are they?
Speaker:Well, it's an appeal appeal process at the moment.
Speaker:So
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:They'd agreed that he could be extradited and then yes,
Speaker:obviously this is the appeals.
Speaker:He has to exhaust his appeals because he said effectively, he's committed no crime.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Well, what's more, it was supposedly a US crime and he wasn't in US territory.
Speaker:Well, supposedly
Speaker:he was arrested for a
Speaker:Swedish crime.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But the reason why the Yanks want him extradited is for a US crime.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Which he supposedly committed, even though he wasn't in US territory
Speaker:and, and wasn't a US citizen.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:When you talk about the, the long reach of the Chinese police state,
Speaker:and here we've got the Yanks.
Speaker:Grabbing an Australian citizen outta Britain was supposedly
Speaker:committing a breach of a law.
Speaker:And he was never in the u s a.
Speaker:It's extraordinary.
Speaker:I, I was listening to a podcast about a Russian citizen getting picked
Speaker:up 'cause he was wanted for hacking and he eventually got, oh, I can't
Speaker:remember what country he was in, but basically he got arrested there
Speaker:and they were going to expel him.
Speaker:And effectively, as soon as they expelled him, the F b I were
Speaker:waiting in the country to grab him and extradite him to the US Right.
Speaker:Or, sorry, not extradite him.
Speaker:'cause they had no extradition treaty to grab him, put him on a
Speaker:private jet, fly him back to the US
Speaker:and, and get details out of him or, oh, this was credit
Speaker:card fraud.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So he was, he was wanted for, selling.
Speaker:Millions of credit card.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:On the black market.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So Bernard Keen in Crike wrote an article about Richard Miles and, and linked with
Speaker:this whole sort of Julian Assange and, and our relationship with the U s A.
Speaker:So, so we had a recent visit from Anthony Blinken, US Secretary of State.
Speaker:And according to Bernard Keen and Crikey, Anthony Blinken is a liar to be specific.
Speaker:His statement at the weekend that Julian Assange's actions in leaking
Speaker:the US cables, quote, risked very serious harm to our national security.
Speaker:So that is what the allegation is from Blinken, that what Assange did risked very
Speaker:serious harm to our national security.
Speaker:It it did, it made them look like idiots.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's the only harm it did was just embarrass them.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So, So what we've got is Bernard Keen lists some of the evidence that
Speaker:there was actually no genuine harm to US security, just embarrassment.
Speaker:And he's got four points to make that sort of along that argument.
Speaker:He says, this was a Barack Obama's defense secretary at the time, Robert M.
Speaker:Gates said, I've heard the impact of these releases on our foreign
Speaker:policy described as a meltdown, as a game changer, and so on.
Speaker:I think, I think those descriptions are fairly significantly overwrought.
Speaker:The fact is governments deal with the United States because it's in
Speaker:their interest, not because they like us, not because they trust
Speaker:us, and not because they believe.
Speaker:We can keep secrets.
Speaker:Other nations will continue to deal with us.
Speaker:They'll continue to work with us.
Speaker:We will continue to share sensitive information with one another.
Speaker:Is this embarrassing?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Is it awkward?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Consequences for US foreign policy, I think fairly modest.
Speaker:That was the defense secretary.
Speaker:Then the Department of Defense in a secret report obtained by Buzzfeed in
Speaker:2017 said there was no significant impact.
Speaker:disclosure of the Iraq data set will have no direct personal impact on current and
Speaker:former leadership, US leadership in Iraq.
Speaker:The third proof was, officials of Lincoln's Department of Briefing Congress
Speaker:in 2010 and said, we were told the impact of the WikiLeaks revelations
Speaker:was embarrassing but not damaging.
Speaker:And at the trial of Chelsea Manning, the US military officials said,
Speaker:I don't have a specific example.
Speaker:When asked to confirm the much of wanted claim that the releases had placed
Speaker:the lives of US sources in danger.
Speaker:So, and of course it's been pardoned.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:So the US government itself, on multiple occasions has said
Speaker:it's embarrassing, but no.
Speaker:Significant damage has been done.
Speaker:He's a journalist releasing information.
Speaker:and now this week, labor government, albanese and Miles
Speaker:just don't see the greens.
Speaker:Wouldn't stand for
Speaker:it.
Speaker:The
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Liam, jot that down.
Speaker:Or probably Scott maybe doesn't care that much.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Do you, you care about, you have a strong opinion about Bil Assange?
Speaker:No, I, his predicament, Scott didn't
Speaker:say strong, but I, I think he's been in prison long enough.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, it's, it, it's one of those things.
Speaker:And, and you're not outraged.
Speaker:yes and no.
Speaker:I, I just think to myself that he did something bloody stupid.
Speaker:He poked the bear or he poked the eagle and you know, now he's complaining
Speaker:'cause the eagle's bitten his
Speaker:stupid or brave.
Speaker:Definitely valuable.
Speaker:Well, of course it was valuable
Speaker:because you know, that that, that footage that was released in the us over
Speaker:the us you know, collateral damage or whatever it was
Speaker:called when they shot up, when they shot up those three guys in, in, in that Iraqi
Speaker:place, multiple, multiple war crimes have been exposed.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I've got no problem with that.
Speaker:And I also think to myself that, he's been awarded a international
Speaker:prize for journalism, hasn't he?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Various one.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So that means that, the Yanks can't prosecute him because he's a journalist.
Speaker:Well, yank can do whatever they like, don't they?
Speaker:Yeah, I know
Speaker:that.
Speaker:I know that's what
Speaker:they
Speaker:try to do.
Speaker:I'm just, I'm just, I'm just interested.
Speaker:Joe, are you outraged?
Speaker:You're not saying I'm outraged you.
Speaker:Ah, I'm just appalled by it.
Speaker:I am appalled by it.
Speaker:And, come on.
Speaker:Even barnyard joke is appalled by it.
Speaker:Barnyard joke.
Speaker:Barnaby Choice.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Oh, Barnaby Joyce, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's, it's one, one
Speaker:of the most outspoken politicians.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Apparently one of the WikiLeaks early on was about Richard Miles.
Speaker:So the US diplomats had meetings with him and there was a cable that
Speaker:was released by, WikiLeaks from 2009 that, revealed that in the opinion
Speaker:of the us he was a non-entity.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And that he was overwhelmed and was an under informed parliamentary secretary.
Speaker:And, at the time, miles said he wanted Australia to depend
Speaker:less on commodity exports.
Speaker:When asked what other areas he'd like to see exports grow, he
Speaker:couldn't think of any, said he had to keep reading the material.
Speaker:so according to Bernard, keen Miles has hated WikiLeaks ever since.
Speaker:'cause it exposed this terrible opinion that the US had of Richard Miles.
Speaker:So, it's not that fault.
Speaker:Might be something to that.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:what else would the other thing in that, it's just still on Richard Miles, in
Speaker:that, in that release from WikiLeaks somewhere, I've got too much time.
Speaker:My hands, 'cause I saw the link in Bernard Keen's article and I
Speaker:thought, huh, have a quick link look.
Speaker:So I was looking at the, at the, leaked report.
Speaker:And one of the interesting things in there was, well, I found this interesting.
Speaker:Was that, in talking with the Consul General, Richard Miles said that, he has a
Speaker:very close relationship with Joe De Bruin, the shop distributor and Allied Employees
Speaker:Association, national Secretary, i e the Shoppes, who we all know are this crazy
Speaker:religious union that has been the, a major problem for everybody because they've
Speaker:been very socially conservative and, yeah,
Speaker:but they're communists.
Speaker:Come on.
Speaker:They,
Speaker:they're, they're unions.
Speaker:Well, a very, Christian, conservative union, Shoppes, who
Speaker:by the way don't represent their members very well at all, and.
Speaker:are powerful because they have so many members.
Speaker:Like there's lots of people working for Coles and Woolies, but they actually
Speaker:get really poor results for them.
Speaker:If sha
Speaker:I'm sure the Red Union will stand up for them.
Speaker:The bread union, I'll tell you what one the red unions, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:So, nurses and teachers in particular, this is a former member of the L N
Speaker:P who set up these private unions that aren't registered as unions.
Speaker:There's some weird loophole, I don't know.
Speaker:and they're taking membership fees that are half what the existing unions are and
Speaker:they go on about how they're wonderful.
Speaker:But people have said they're more likely to, bend over to employees.
Speaker:It was, it was mostly the anti-vaxxers.
Speaker:It was very much freedom of a choice about
Speaker:vaccines.
Speaker:So the setup unions, which won't actually collectively bargain, but will.
Speaker:Because of discounted union due will take people away from a real
Speaker:union that will act for them.
Speaker:That's what the
Speaker:allegations have been.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Have, have a look at red
Speaker:unions.
Speaker:It's quite interesting.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:anyway, the Shopee, notoriously poor performers for their people
Speaker:are supposed to represent.
Speaker:if Shay was in charge, I'm sure they'd get a much better deal anyway.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:Richard Miles doing nothing for, Julian Assange, possibly angry
Speaker:because Wiki leaks exposed that the Americans had a low opinion of him.
Speaker:And just add to your little kitbag of knowledge about Richard Miles that
Speaker:he's in sweep with the Shoppy Union.
Speaker:And that's not a good sign.
Speaker:I don't think.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:More I learned about the current labor mob, the, less hope I have.
Speaker:yeah, John's in the chat room.
Speaker:He's a labor man.
Speaker:He says the shop union is not a union as far as I'm concerned, and Allison says,
Speaker:I'm outraged at the treatment of Julian.
Speaker:Good on you, Allison.
Speaker:And, Shay says, can't prosecute can persecute.
Speaker:And, and Allison says, I highly recommend Nils Mills's book
Speaker:The Trial of Julian Assange.
Speaker:Nils was the United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture.
Speaker:And there we go.
Speaker:That's the main ones.
Speaker:See?
Speaker:and Robin's there, D and Whatley, there's a host of the usual suspects.
Speaker:Are there probably Allison's mom and Bev's listening as well.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:Almost.
Speaker:Yeah, almost certainly.
Speaker:Trump, polls I mentioned previously about Trump and how well he's going.
Speaker:And here's one just on Trump and why he's so hard to beat.
Speaker:And essentially there is amongst Republicans, a 37% mugger base
Speaker:that just cannot be shifted.
Speaker:There's a 37 persuadable component of which, 17% lean Trump, 12%
Speaker:lean, others 17% favor DeSantis.
Speaker:And out of these sort of Republican, people, there's really only 25%
Speaker:that are just not open to Trump.
Speaker:So 37% base, 37% persuadable, and only 25% never Trumpers.
Speaker:That's a, that's a really worryingly low figure.
Speaker:The scary thing is the allegations that.
Speaker:If Trump gets in for a second term, he has, people have been saying, and they're
Speaker:going because they've said it, they're gonna claim that's a mandate if he gets
Speaker:elected, that he intends to use executive orders to dismantle all of the safeguards
Speaker:that are in place to stop the president.
Speaker:assuming power.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You know, it's one arm of the three arms of government.
Speaker:and he intends to supersede all the other, go the arms and make it effectively
Speaker:a dictatorship.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And fairly important people in this camp have been openly
Speaker:admitting that this is their plan.
Speaker:Wouldn't doubt it.
Speaker:The guy's such a loose cannon with nothing to lose, everything to gain.
Speaker:Of course.
Speaker:He's just, what's, of course he will.
Speaker:I, I think
Speaker:worry to have an accident.
Speaker:It would be in the benefit of most of the world.
Speaker:Not just the don't go driving, don't go driving past any
Speaker:grassy knolls, is that exactly.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Allison's, I, I actually
Speaker:wonder if there really is a deep state how he hasn't had an accident.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Allison was at the Grassy Knolls.
Speaker:He's been there.
Speaker:Seemed recall.
Speaker:I've
Speaker:been there too.
Speaker:Have you?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Indigenous education.
Speaker:I spoke last week about culture and I've got this article that I was gonna do last
Speaker:week and we sort of ran outta time, so just gonna read this one and, there's a
Speaker:fair bit to it, but see what you think.
Speaker:Did you guys get a chance to read this one or not?
Speaker:Yeah, I read it whenever you first sent it through.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Did you find it concerning at all, Joe?
Speaker:I, I think I'll let you read it first,
Speaker:but yes.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:First Nations educators are clear.
Speaker:They want their own system of education.
Speaker:That's the main message to come out of a landmark report released today
Speaker:by more than 51st Nations educators at RA ppa, an annual black only education
Speaker:conference just east of Alice Springs.
Speaker:The MK Turner report offers guiding principles, structures, and
Speaker:recommendations on what makes a First Nations system of education and what
Speaker:is required to roll it out nationwide.
Speaker:Here's what it looks like in practice.
Speaker:Understanding the difference in a standard school day.
Speaker:A typical school day for a child in the Western education system might
Speaker:be a car drop off, roll call, class one, recess, class two and three,
Speaker:lunch, class four, pick up, home give, we'll take a bit of sport and music.
Speaker:It's heavy on numbers, big on literacy, and all done in English.
Speaker:A First Nations model looks very different every day begins with
Speaker:first language in one community.
Speaker:The school day might start with a bus pickup for both children and parents.
Speaker:Kids greeted in the language of their country and they travel to
Speaker:school with family and community.
Speaker:They don't have to travel 50 kilometers, to go to a brick
Speaker:building that's not welcoming.
Speaker:They get to go to a hub box or a space that they know, can.
Speaker:Gary Woman, Stacey Campton, director of First Nations Education
Speaker:Organization, children's Ground tells Crikey, rewriting how important
Speaker:it's for a child to be immediately understand that they are welcome.
Speaker:A shared meal might come next alongside a lesson on nutrition and health,
Speaker:or it could be an hour of singing, dancing, and another cultural ceremony.
Speaker:All done in first language and first language only kids could
Speaker:help teachers pack the bus for a trip out on country where they're
Speaker:taught to Hunt, dig and identify bush foods they can and can't eat.
Speaker:It's a morning of experiential learning and play.
Speaker:Classroom style teaching might feature later in the day, but first Nations
Speaker:education consultant, Gabriel Lare woman, auntie Julie Armstrong, explains that
Speaker:this is all done through the First Nations lens of language, culture, and country.
Speaker:The most important thing she says is for indigenous kids to know
Speaker:that they come from the land.
Speaker:As this provides context for everything connection to people,
Speaker:elders, identity, and aboriginal law.
Speaker:You take the time to open your eyes and see what's around you.
Speaker:You would take the time to smell.
Speaker:You could then join in song with what's around, and it would be sung in language.
Speaker:Armstrong says, To really have a purposeful life, you
Speaker:need to have energy, she says.
Speaker:And to get that energy is about putting your feet and stomping on the ground.
Speaker:The full sensory experience, sight, smell, sound, taste, and touch is
Speaker:critical for indigenous peoples to understand the spirit and soul of
Speaker:language, country, people and self.
Speaker:Quote, why we haven't reached our potential is because we've been
Speaker:trapped within these four walls and a roof and a curriculum which can only
Speaker:work between four walls and a roof.
Speaker:She says The founding chair of children's ground, a rane man, William
Speaker:Till mouth calls it a simulation.
Speaker:He says, learning without family, community, country, language
Speaker:and identity is a recipe to lose yourself because you don't know
Speaker:who you are and where you're from.
Speaker:there's a lady Armstrong, I'm gonna try and skip a little bit here
Speaker:'cause I feel it's going on too long.
Speaker:why do you need a classroom?
Speaker:People have to love our children.
Speaker:Now you listen to educators, I don't hear that word often within
Speaker:this space or within that space.
Speaker:Armstrong says, reiterating that the message that rises above the
Speaker:rest is all of our kids are failing.
Speaker:That's what we as a nation are told.
Speaker:Our kids are behind.
Speaker:They're behind the benchmarks, they're behind this.
Speaker:I wouldn't have any of that language.
Speaker:It's a similar story for Gamma Roy Woman.
Speaker:and she says, apart from still having to adhere to learning
Speaker:metrics such as no plan, the curriculum is set by mob for mob.
Speaker:And she says, her school stands apart from the academic heavy curriculum
Speaker:that dominates Western education by privileging culture that is inherently
Speaker:humble, caring, and nurturing.
Speaker:And which allows for support of the whole child.
Speaker:Our kids, they know we love them and we are looking out for them,
Speaker:she says, and that in itself just makes a huge difference to the
Speaker:teaching and learning of our school.
Speaker:And the last bit here is why a teacher doesn't equal a piece of paper in
Speaker:the Western system of education.
Speaker:No child, adult, or elder qualifies as a teacher unless they possess
Speaker:a certificate of accreditation.
Speaker:Mout says that metric overlooks the 60,000 plus years of knowledge, expertise, and
Speaker:lived experience that makes an aboriginal teacher because you're fluent in language,
Speaker:because you're fluent in culture and identity and country, but you don't have
Speaker:a certificate, you're not considered to be worthy of being called a teacher.
Speaker:He says they do six years of university, but aboriginal people, our old people
Speaker:have done 70, 80 years of living under oppression and in extreme circumstances,
Speaker:And if they haven't learned something, then you know, I'll go, ah, well,
Speaker:I don't see any of them, any of them ever graduating on to go onto
Speaker:university to become a, a doctor.
Speaker:I, I, I think if you're trying to teach people how to live as hunter-gatherers,
Speaker:then learning to live off the land and your 60,000 years of culture might be
Speaker:useful if you want them to succeed in a western culture, in a western, well,
Speaker:not even western, but the rest of the world if you want to them to succeed
Speaker:The 21st century trading Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Trading with Asia, then they have to be fluent in arithmetic.
Speaker:I, I, I fully understand and empathize.
Speaker:I, I think kids should spend more time outside.
Speaker:I don't see why you can't have, lessons out in the bush.
Speaker:You can certainly have science.
Speaker:You can have mathematics out in the bush.
Speaker:You can be doing useful things, not stuck in a classroom whilst, whilst
Speaker:learning real measurable things.
Speaker:but yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But I honestly believe that, you know, the whole criticism of NAPLAN and
Speaker:all that sort of stuff now, you know, it's been years since I've been in
Speaker:a classroom, obviously, but I don't even fully understand what NAPLAN is.
Speaker:But I gather it's some type of, test that kids are required to do.
Speaker:Okay, that's fine.
Speaker:But you know, if you're going to have an indigenous school set up exactly
Speaker:the way they're talking about, then those kids are just gonna keep failing.
Speaker:NAP plan.
Speaker:You know, it's,
Speaker:I don't, I totally, the reading that does not give me hope that
Speaker:those kids are gonna be prepared for the wider modern day society.
Speaker:No, they're not.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:And
Speaker:you know, the, the, the elders in that sort of stuff are just
Speaker:wanting to always look backwards.
Speaker:And this is why one of the things that I really am very critical of the voice
Speaker:campaigning is that, you know, they, they talk about getting voice then after that,
Speaker:going onto the truth and reconciliation, which honestly doesn't worry me, but
Speaker:there's gotta be truth from both sides.
Speaker:And that is that they are going to have to accept that their
Speaker:society wasn't all peaceful.
Speaker:You know, that it wasn't all, it wasn't all, light and love.
Speaker:You know, it's just one of those things that I honestly believe that we've
Speaker:gotta get the truth from both sides.
Speaker:Well, John I think said this would be after school activities and certainly,
Speaker:I have colleagues at work whose children are half Chinese and they
Speaker:go to Chinese school on the weekend.
Speaker:My daughter went to French school on the weekend, which was all about
Speaker:learning the language, learning the culture, and this was all after school.
Speaker:and in fact, Queensland Education provides, languages
Speaker:other than English syllabus.
Speaker:They provide the syllabus written in English, and then the schools
Speaker:translated into whatever language.
Speaker:So there is a full.
Speaker:Here's how to learn about culture.
Speaker:So, you know, one, one lesson is the kitchen and you have a drawing of
Speaker:objects around the kitchen and you translate it into whatever language.
Speaker:And then you say, in our culture, this is what we'd be cooking.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:but this is all after school.
Speaker:This is all out of ours.
Speaker:And this is, this is, you're learning English because that is the
Speaker:language of business in Australia.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:That's what you're learning at school.
Speaker:You're learning mathematics because you need that for business in
Speaker:Australia to fit into society.
Speaker:That's what you need.
Speaker:If you know, if you're gonna educate the kids that way then, and don't be
Speaker:surprised or complain when 20 years later the, the proportion of kids at
Speaker:university or in difficult jobs or any jobs doesn't match the wider population.
Speaker:Because you've given them an upbringing that doesn't match the wider population.
Speaker:So don't expect to give that sort of upbringing and yet, and yet tick
Speaker:off a whole bunch of metrics because you just, that's not how it works.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker:Just stop giving respect to this nonsense.
Speaker:but yeah, the, the thing about the kids having energy and it Mm,
Speaker:they're not settling down in class.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:I definitely empathize with that.
Speaker:I know that, years ago in scouts, we always had sports at the
Speaker:beginning, of the evening, just so we got all the energy out.
Speaker:'cause we were all hyped up.
Speaker:It was a Friday evening, we'd got an hour of chalk rugby or whatever, beating
Speaker:the shit out of each other basically.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And then we got down to map reading because if you tried to do that first
Speaker:up, the kids just wouldn't sit still.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And, and so maybe school has become too formalized in that
Speaker:way and maybe we need to burn off a little of the energy upfront.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I don't know what goes on in a modern school and how often
Speaker:they get outta the classroom.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:But
Speaker:well then you can always say, always hope you've got students like me that
Speaker:hated getting outta the classroom.
Speaker:'cause I thought it was boring and a waste of time.
Speaker:But anyway.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:that's education according to those indigenous educators.
Speaker:right.
Speaker:Came across, I was listening to a podcast, called Pivot, which was
Speaker:kind of interesting and, It, referred me on to this, in California.
Speaker:So in 1996, dear listener, Californian voters approved Proposition 2 0
Speaker:9, which was a ban on affirmative action at public universities.
Speaker:So up until that point, there had been some affirmative action where
Speaker:based on race, people would be getting positions or other things in preference.
Speaker:And typically, of course, if you are from a minority race, you would get a
Speaker:position that instead of white person.
Speaker:So Proposition 2 0 9 amended the state constitution in California
Speaker:to prohibit state government institutions from considering race,
Speaker:sex, or ethnicity, specifically in the areas of public employment.
Speaker:Public contracting and public education.
Speaker:So kind of anti the voice in a way because the voice is attached to this idea of a
Speaker:special, group to parliament, a group of public servants, which is a form of public
Speaker:employment, which will be race-based.
Speaker:A kind of affirmative action, I guess seems to look like
Speaker:it to me and in California.
Speaker:So people are saying, well, for the starters, won't it be
Speaker:terrible if Australia votes no.
Speaker:Will just be the or, laughingstock not lock, laughingstock or the
Speaker:pariah Pariahs Pariah, yeah.
Speaker:Whatever of the community.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But it's happened around the world, including California, where they basically
Speaker:had affirmative action, and got rid of it.
Speaker:But they
Speaker:also voted Proposition eight, was it?
Speaker:Which Banning gay marriage.
Speaker:That was the big one, right?
Speaker:California is not as left-leaning as we necessarily think.
Speaker:No,
Speaker:probably not.
Speaker:but just keep going on with this, with this, what happened in California.
Speaker:so when they put that to the public, in 2009 to get rid of affirmative
Speaker:action based on race, it was passed by the public, 55 to 45.
Speaker:And then, in 2019, so, you know, over 20 years later, there was a proposition
Speaker:16 was introduced, which was to get rid of Proposition 2 0 9 and return
Speaker:back to allowing affirmative action.
Speaker:They put it to the people and they said no.
Speaker:We wanna keep it the way that it has been.
Speaker:So Proposition 2 0 9 survived and it is still today in California, prohibited
Speaker:for state governments to, consider race, sex, or ethnicity in public employment,
Speaker:public contracting and public education.
Speaker:So, what did that do to the ethnic makeup of first year enrollment
Speaker:at the University of California?
Speaker:Let me just find the little chart here.
Speaker:I'll bring it up on the screen.
Speaker:hopefully that will show up.
Speaker:But it was 96 that the Proposition 2 0 9 was passed.
Speaker:If we look at, say, 90, 94, so a couple of years beforehand, enrollment.
Speaker:First year enrollment, university of California, 4.3% African
Speaker:American, 37% Asian, 15% LA Latin American, and 36% white.
Speaker:Now, shortly after Proposition 2 0 9, if you look at years 90, 7
Speaker:98, 99, 2000, 2001, basically the African American participation
Speaker:plummeted from 4.3 down to 2.8.
Speaker:Asian was steady.
Speaker:Latin American dropped from 15 to 11.
Speaker:White increased marginally, 36 to 37, but by the time we get to 2021, the
Speaker:African American percentage wa after.
Speaker:Compared to 1994, it was 4.3, it's now 5%.
Speaker:Asian was 37%.
Speaker:It's now 34.
Speaker:Latin American was 15%.
Speaker:It's now 37 in the white, percentage.
Speaker:First year enrollment in 1994, it was 36% and it's now 20%.
Speaker:So what did they do?
Speaker:they basically changed from using a raced based affirmative action policy
Speaker:to introducing a, an adversity score.
Speaker:So rather than looking at the color of somebody's skin, they looked
Speaker:at a range of factors, which, which basically added up the.
Speaker:Difficulties somebody had to face that weren't race related or what
Speaker:weren't directly related to, wasn't exactly the color of the skin.
Speaker:So, so for example, at the medical school, so this is the
Speaker:University of California Davis.
Speaker:they created the Socioeconomic Disadvantage Scale or the SS e d and
Speaker:basically ranked applicants from zero to 99 taking into account their life
Speaker:circumstances such as family income, a rental education, admissions decisions
Speaker:were based on that score combined with the usual test scores and.
Speaker:Obviously if you had two people who were otherwise equal, but one had overcome
Speaker:adversity to get there, then they'd get in in preference to the other one.
Speaker:So, according to this report from the New York Times, the disadvantage
Speaker:scale helped turn the US Davis or the University of California campus,
Speaker:Davis Medical School, one of the most diverse medical schools in the country.
Speaker:And so lots, you would've heard, dear listener, that the Supreme
Speaker:Court ruled against affirmative action programs in the United States.
Speaker:So a number of places are now looking around at what else has been done.
Speaker:They're looking at California and they're saying, Hmm, tell us more about this
Speaker:adversity score and how that works.
Speaker:So, let me see.
Speaker:The US university, sorry, uc, university of California Davis Scale
Speaker:has drawn attention because of its ability to bring in diverse students
Speaker:using what the school says are race neutral socioeconomic models.
Speaker:And in its most recent entering class of 133 students, 14% were black, 30%
Speaker:were Hispanic, whereas nationally, 10% of medical school students
Speaker:were black and 12% were Hispanic.
Speaker:So batting above average there on those things.
Speaker:And, factors include that they use family income, whether applicants come
Speaker:from a underserved area, whether they help support their nuclear families, and
Speaker:whether their parents went to college.
Speaker:let me see.
Speaker:I, Hmm.
Speaker:Oh, if you are the children of a doctor, You weren't a adversity score of zero.
Speaker:and of course a number of doctors complained because their children couldn't
Speaker:get into a California medical school and had to go to a different state.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:Because, so they were saying they performed really well on tess.
Speaker:So Yeah.
Speaker:Don't, don't forget uc is a public school, public university,
Speaker:the private universities.
Speaker:However, and they were saying something like 30% of Yale and
Speaker:Harvard students are legacies Yes.
Speaker:Who get in solely on the fact that
Speaker:their parents went there.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But I think in that decision, I think, didn't that affect
Speaker:legacy enrollments as well?
Speaker:No, it didn't.
Speaker:It didn't.
Speaker:It didn't.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:I thought so.
Speaker:So realistically, you have to get away.
Speaker:From legacy.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:If you want to do
Speaker:this sort of thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, anyway, there's some food for thought of a system where instead of
Speaker:looking at the color of your skin, they are looking at family income,
Speaker:whether your parents went to college, community involvement, other stuff,
Speaker:as an indicator of your adversity.
Speaker:And,
Speaker:I'm guessing they're thinking if your parents are doctors or one of your
Speaker:parents is a doctor, they can afford to send you to a private school.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:To a private university as opposed to the the
Speaker:public university.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, what does it say?
Speaker:It, it just said here that, It's not easy to persuade medical schools
Speaker:to upend admission standards, particularly anything that undermines
Speaker:the value of test scores and grades.
Speaker:Dr.
Speaker:Henderson said he had received pushback from his own colleagues.
Speaker:Doctors say their kids got into medical school elsewhere and they didn't get
Speaker:in here as the children of doctors.
Speaker:He said those applicants earned an SS e d score of zero.
Speaker:So I guess they couldn't, couldn't earn an income score.
Speaker:They couldn't earn a score because they were the first in their family to college.
Speaker:they probably didn't earn a score because of a poor public education.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:So there we go.
Speaker:Surely they,
Speaker:they can get in, but they have to be exceptionally academically.
Speaker:Yes, indeed.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:The other, complaint about, affirmative action.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Was that the people who got in were not necessarily, they could
Speaker:have excelled in a lesser school.
Speaker:So if, if you are certainly your top tier universities, if you're taking
Speaker:in people based on the color of their skin, not on their ability mm-hmm.
Speaker:Then you are taking in people who may not be able to cope with the pressure, and
Speaker:the expectations of a top level school.
Speaker:and I wonder how they necessarily, if you are, if you're dealing with people
Speaker:from disadvantaged backgrounds, they're gonna have the same sort of thing.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Quite possibly.
Speaker:I've heard that before.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Coleman Hughes wrote an article once about, how putting kids who
Speaker:had academically underperformed.
Speaker:Into advanced classes, they would invariably be at the bottom of the class.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Because they had got there through, race scores or whatever.
Speaker:And and that was tough on them.
Speaker:They might've had much happier and better experiences if they'd been with a cohort
Speaker:of peers who are more of their standard.
Speaker:Like if you're in a math class and everyone else is a real
Speaker:genius at math, like it'd be really depressing, wouldn't it?
Speaker:Like you just think you're helpless.
Speaker:And what would also happen would be a sort of, basically it, it engineered a
Speaker:situation where normally in the class, the poorest performers were ethnic kids or,
Speaker:you know, Spanish Latino and black kids.
Speaker:and it created a, a sense amongst the white kids that.
Speaker:The blacks and Latinos are stupid 'cause they're always in the bottom of the class.
Speaker:But that was because it was a cohort that had been kind of promoted in
Speaker:a class that they really shouldn't have been in in the first place.
Speaker:So almost created a racial stereotype Yeah.
Speaker:In the lines of those.
Speaker:So there is definitely a correlation between, socioeconomic
Speaker:background and performance.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And there and there's, there's nothing to do with, race that is inherent in this.
Speaker:It is purely, yeah.
Speaker:When your, when your parents are out working all hours and you're
Speaker:not supervised at home to do your homework, you're more likely to goof
Speaker:off than if your parents are at home.
Speaker:You know, if you've got, one parent at work and one parent at home being the
Speaker:homemaker, they're gonna make bloody sure you sit down and do your homework.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Or they're more likely to.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:meanwhile, sorry.
Speaker:Well, it was
Speaker:just, how, how do you deal with that at university level?
Speaker:It's too late by then.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:These kids have been disadvantaged from the get go, and unless you give them
Speaker:the resources to catch up, you know, do you run, do you run a remedial class?
Speaker:Do you run an additional year for those people from disadvantaged
Speaker:backgrounds to bring them up to the same educational standard as
Speaker:their, their peers, their cohort?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But sometimes it might not be possible.
Speaker:Like, you know, if you're in a really M I t or some of these really top universities
Speaker:and you're in a really difficult STEM class, all the training in the world can't
Speaker:make a silk person out of a SOS either.
Speaker:Like, you just either have the ability for some of these
Speaker:things or you don't, but Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, so people who have the innate intelligence but
Speaker:don't necessarily have the.
Speaker:Training.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Who have been let down by their school or by, you know, just,
Speaker:just their background in general.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm just saying that a year's extra training can't make it
Speaker:rocket scientists out of everybody.
Speaker:No, I agree.
Speaker:There, there has to be some in innate
Speaker:ability there.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Anyway, look at us tricky conversations around race.
Speaker:Of course culture is a different thing though because culture is where
Speaker:people do it does influence things.
Speaker:So for example, in Indian culture, it's quite the thing to do medical, into
Speaker:the medical profession in some way.
Speaker:so culture has a real impact on how people perform.
Speaker:race of course, is just a construct, but.
Speaker:We talked enough about culture last week.
Speaker:Anyway, that's food for thought for you.
Speaker:Dear listener, have you enjoyed us treading on dangerous territory yet again?
Speaker:next week Scott is gonna tangle with Liam.
Speaker:That'll be fun.
Speaker:I'm really looking forward to
Speaker:that.
Speaker:as long as you're gonna be a fair moderator,
Speaker:of course, in my Mr.
Speaker:Spock fashion, I will be scrupulously fair.
Speaker:I won't be swayed by emotion.
Speaker:That's good.
Speaker:Yeah, it'll be good.
Speaker:I alright.
Speaker:I all right.
Speaker:Until next time.
Speaker:Thanks.
Speaker:In the chat room.
Speaker:You've been good.
Speaker:Talk to you next time.
Speaker:Bye for now.
Speaker:And it's a good night from me and it's a
Speaker:good night from him.
Speaker:Good night.
