full

Episode 353 - Sometimes We Need a Witch Hunt

In this episode we discuss:

00:00:00 Introduction

00:01:07 Witch Hunts

00:10:52 Fran Bailey

00:14:00 Murdoch and Crikey

00:21:40 Long Covid

00:23:55 Labor's Climate Credentials

00:26:26 Shaq

00:29:45 Stage 3 Tax Cuts

00:39:36 Student Loans

00:49:48 Electricity and Privatisation

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Transcript
Speaker:

Well, hello there.

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Dear listener, the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast.

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It's me, Trevor.

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AKA.

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Iron Fist with me, Joe, the tech guy How you going Joe?

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Evening All.

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So if you're in the chat room at any point, say hello and chat away,

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we'll try and get your comments.

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And we're just going to rattle through the events of the week

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and look at some other stuff.

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What's on the agenda.

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Witch Hunts, Murdoch and crikey long Cove.

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Stage three tax cuts, student loan, forgiveness, and

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privatization of public assets.

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So that's the sort of stuff that's on the agenda.

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I've got a few clips to show you.

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John's in a chat room.

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Hello, John, John and I are in the middle of a, Facebook messenger

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debate over small nuclear reactors.

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We had, John is still a fan and he feels that I have strong meaned that and,

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cherry picked a good name, the good DS of straw man, and cherry picked the

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good name of small nuclear reactors.

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So we're in the midst of the biting that, but, I don't think we're

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going to do that as a topic tonight.

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So, well, first topic we chance Joe.

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I mean, what's wrong with a good old fashioned we chant.

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I asked you burn the wage.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I keep thinking of the Monty Python.

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Where they've dressed up that poor woman with a fake nose and as a

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witch and they want to burn her and she took to a nude, that's it.

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I keep thinking of it.

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We chant, you know, and which hands are bad, but Joan, what if they

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really ask them, which is out there as instant, bad faithful, it's

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probably time to hump and down.

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I would have thought maybe we can get them to eat 'em oh God, yes.

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Be some way of showing them well, appearing before an ICAC or

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something, is what needs to be done.

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So, so both that Trump and Morrison in particular are claiming that

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they're the victims of a witch hunt.

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And so, yeah, I'm working on a hypothesis that the problem in our society is

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that we haven't had enough, we chance.

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And so there's the conflicting arguments with both of these characters.

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On the one hand, we've got their supporters who are saying, oh, why pick

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on these guys it's over and done with this is just unnecessary, vindictive legal

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action against people because you don't like them and they're not of your tribe.

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And the other competing narrative is people saying there are serious problems

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that went on here in the USA, the capital rights, and in Australia, you know,

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signing up to five ministries in secret.

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And these things just can't be swept under the carpet and should be examined.

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And, you know, if he could just declare, oh, it's a witch

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hunt, you would never go back.

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And re-examine poor behavior, Joe.

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And I think one of our problems in our society of light is that there

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hasn't been enough shaming of people for poor behavior and poor decisions.

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Well, certainly there's not been enough shame, agreed to by the people.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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So, I, in the park, in the past, if he got caught doing something, most

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politicians had the, good grace to, to look ashamed about being caught, doing the

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wrong thing and fell on their own sword.

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Whereas recently it's just been, oh, well, no, no, it never happened.

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I'm pretending it didn't happen.

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And plus the way through.

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Yeah.

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Or I haven't broken the black letter of the law.

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It wasn't strictly speaking illegal.

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It was just a convention and therefore it doesn't matter.

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Leave me alone, nothing.

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It doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong to these people.

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It's just, you know, am I legally liable?

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And if not, let's move on.

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So.

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So, yeah, it's a, it's the confliction, the conflicting thing they're saying,

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incidentally, Joe, I thought about it.

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Look it up.

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Witch hunt.

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metaphorically means an investigation that is usually conducted with matchy

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publicity, supposedly to uncover subversive activity, disloyalty and

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so on, but with the real purpose of intimidating political opponents.

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So Morrison, for example, would say, well, this is all about intimidating political

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opponents, but, I'd like to think that it's about uncovering subversive activity.

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That's where the emphasis is.

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I would agree.

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I mean, I don't see holding a minister holding a prime minister to account

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for their actions they did in secret.

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Yeah.

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Or even holding a former president to account for stealing documents and

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then keeping them in unsafe locations.

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And from what I hear.

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The classified documents were hidden inside unclassified documents.

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Right.

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They had been taken from their original folders and mixed in

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with papers of other sorts.

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So it looks like there was a deliberate attempt to hide classified documents.

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Yeah.

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I think the inspiration expression was they'd been unfolded.

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I think it was possibly a word that was kind of a hurdle and

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someone was saying, oh yeah.

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it was his blackmail, trope.

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Yes.

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These, these were all things that he was hoping to threaten to, to disgrace people

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by saying, look, look, you did this.

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I'm going to make this public.

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If you don't do whatever I tell you to.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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And certainly that there was a Macron file.

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Certainly reeks of him getting some ammunition of some sort, but he might

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to have some payback by being toes.

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Yeah.

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So anyway, Trump on the confidential documents, he says it's a.

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Conservatives on the Morrison ministries.

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They say that's a witch hunt conservatives on the robo debt inquiry.

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They say that's a witch hunt.

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And they started with pink bats.

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Didn't they?

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Yes, that's right.

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But you know, when it comes to the robot, did quite possibly Joe it's

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a witch hunt of a witch hunt because that, Alan targe, who was the, the, one

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of the ministers involved said at one point, we'll find you we'll track you

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down and you will have to repay those debts and you may end up in prison.

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So perhaps he was conducting a witch hunt and now there's a

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witch hunt of his witch hunt.

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It's all getting very meta.

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so.

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it's conflicting.

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There's all sorts of different people, in the chat room, by the

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way, everyone's going off already.

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Good on you.

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Alison Bronwyn ITTO and, and, and, and Tanya, I think T

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Watkins would be Tanya probably.

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Yeah.

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Keep talking in there.

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We'll try and get to you if you can.

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And, what I was going to say, Walid, Allie, are you a fan?

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Joe, so somebody posted a link to him and Christopher Hitchens

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on Q and a many years ago.

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Oh, what happened?

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Oh, Walid was being his usual evasive self about what Islam believed.

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Right.

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Cause Christopher was saying, so does this law firm say that homosexuality is

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fine and he's going, oh, well, you know, most Muslims and he's saying, no, no,

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no, it's not what most Muslims believe.

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What does Islam say?

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Yes, because he was calling his Lamar and I think of Christianity as being.

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and, and we're saying basically you just, you're not answering the question.

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I was trying to hold Willy to account.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I could imagine Hitchins nailing him.

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So, well, Allie, in a quarterly essay in 2010 road established institutions

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are to be cherished and preserved, but, in the last week or so, after Morrison

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announced, after it was announced about what Morrison was doing with the

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ministries, Waleed Ali is saying, why is it labor kicking him while he's down?

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And so when else would you kick him?

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Yeah, so, yeah.

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Well at Allie he's, off as a conservative and questioning,

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why are they doing this attack?

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So from a guy who previously wrote established institutions that will

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be cherished and preserved and who claimed to be a conservative.

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So it sounds like, he's revealing his tribalism there.

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So isn't important.

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Well, there was a guy RAF Epstein, and now I'm just wondering the Dali's wife

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was a member of parliament for labor, or is that somebody else over in potent?

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I don't know.

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I don't know who his wife is, but RAF Epstein.

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I think he's an ABC reporter of some sort.

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And I think of all the commentary I've heard, he probably said it best.

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So I'll apply a bit of this clip from him and, we'll see what he says.

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can I, can I say something about whether or not the inquiry is justified?

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Yeah, because a lot I want to get, there's a lot of debate about whether it's, which,

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you know, it was going to change anything, but we got to ensure one way or another.

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This never happens again.

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Do we need to do this?

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I think people have overlooked the significance of the

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solicitor General's opinion.

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Steven here, QC is the black letter of Blackwell.

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He's one of the very few people in this country that actually practiced

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it practices constitutional law.

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He has to get up in front of the high court and prosecute this stuff, getting

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them to use an adjective or an adverb is like getting blood from a stone.

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He says he fundamentally undermine fundamentally undermines the

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principles of responsible government, the functioning of responsible

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government and the relationship between the ministry and the public.

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The point that this is a very gendered government was surprised.

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The government was surprised that it was that it's huge.

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It's a huge compulsion to do something and to say for people

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who are, who tap themselves as conservatives to say that, I mean,

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by the Volvo, it's just a convention.

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If you went back to the constitutional convention before Federation

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and said, oh no, it's fine.

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This future prime minister, he didn't break the law.

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He just trashed all of the convention that you all rely on.

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Yeah, I think it put it pretty well.

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That's a little bit low.

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Sorry about the volume on that, but, It's important.

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And I think it's entirely justified.

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Insure label would be rubbing their hands together with a bit of glee with a bit

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of payback, but it is an important thing that needs to be done, particularly as

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we're looking at potentially some sort of Republican debate down the track,

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so issues to do with our constitution and the role of the governor general.

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I think it's a worthwhile exercise, even if it does work in nicely

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with labor's desire to, to keep him to kick him while his day on.

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So, so there was that.

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Okay.

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So that's we chance, now it came out, Fran Bailey has come out in the news.

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So she was the former tourism minister and she's the one who I sickly, ordered that

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Morrison be sacked from his tourism job.

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And for years, people were asking.

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Why do you do that?

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What actually went on and there was this silence about, about what had happened,

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what his misdemeanors were in that role.

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And it was all very secretive.

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And, so she has declined, since 2006, the many requests to explain on

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the record what happened until now.

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So she, so infuriated with the recent disclosures about Morrison,

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secretly appointed himself to multiple ministries that she has agreed to speak.

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and she's made a profound point according to this article from John fine, and the

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age, Morrison was removed from tourism Australia for the same type of conduct he

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displayed in the multi minister scandal.

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Quote, what has changed my mind is that all of those characteristics that make up

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Scott Morrison the secrecy, the Supreme belief that only he can do a job, the

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lack of consultation with those closest.

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Those characteristics were evident 16 years ago.

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Perhaps we're seeing the end result of those now end quote.

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Well, why didn't you come out until everybody back then?

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What I'm going to know.

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She thought he wasn't going to go anywhere.

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She criticized she's criticizing his secrecy and that are

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which she kept secret herself.

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Just, you know, for people who want to come out and say good on you.

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Fran Bailey for revealing.

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I just say they'll add on new friend Bailey, keeping it secret.

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I don't know that anything would have been done, but at least you could

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have done the honorable thing and say, this guy is a secretive narcissist,

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Dinah pointing to any position of power, least of all prime minister.

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So.

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well, it was God who did it.

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Yes, that's right.

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I mean, a few people have made the same sort of criticism that I have just

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made and that we've been admonished by some on the left saying, oh, it

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was a woman who got him sacked and why as a woman being blind for Morrison

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getting through all this, and it says nothing to do with her gender.

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It's just in you.

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He was a secret of character and you kept it secret from us that he was

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secretive site and try and climb too much.

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Kudos for it is all I'm saying, John in the chat room says too little too late.

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She should pull her head back in again.

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I think she did it.

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Political expediency.

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Didn't she?

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Yeah.

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She wasn't going to upset her party.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Well, he was powerful.

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Let him go.

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And now that he's got no friends, everyone can kick him while he's down.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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I mentioned was it last year?

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About crikey and Murdoch.

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I don't know if I actually said it, but, how, how strongly I said it, but

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it seemed unlikely that Murdoch would actually Sue crikey because it makes no

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sense it will be unleashing, exposure of communication by the Murdoch family

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as to what they did and did not do.

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And so it just seemed to be obvious that this was going to

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potentially open a Pandora's box.

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And surely after all of these defamation cases in recent times where the

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plaintiff has ended up regretting starting the action, you would have

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thought that he would just let it go.

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But no, he actually did convince the action against crikey.

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So, We'll see where that one goes.

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It's going to be very interesting stories that pans out Joe, like.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I would like, I, I think, whatever discovery is granted is going,

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gonna be very interesting.

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Hm.

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well, I mean, it's relevant to produce all material that indeed, that might

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lead to the conclusion that there was some agreement, some conspiracy, or just

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mere assistance for Trump in what he was doing or covering up what he was doing.

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It was just, it seems madness, but, he's doing it.

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So we'll, we'll see how that one pans out.

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That's going to be, with many stories over the times it goes

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through, and January 6th inquiry.

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yeah, just going back to Morrison with the secrecy stuff.

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What Lee, hello.

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What Lee says?

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I don't think any of the commentary is taking his religious fanaticism

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into account as his actions go and Bronwyn says agree wildly.

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When you believe you've been chosen by God, anything is justifiable.

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There are certainly a Messiah complex operating in the Scott Morrison mind.

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Did I mention there have been allegations that the only ministries he hadn't

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appointed himself to were the ones that were occupied by evangelicals?

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is that true?

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I don't know.

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I've not looked yet.

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Somebody had said it would be interesting if it was, yeah, I don't know.

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So it seemed to me at first blush, it was ones where the minister had a fair

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amount of personal decision-making responsibility under what the relevant act

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more so than some of the other ministry.

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Whether to approve a development, whether to approve a immigration visa

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for a Sri Lankan family, those sorts of decision-making powers that may be some

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of the other ministries didn't have.

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So it seemed to me ones where there were a high degree of

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personal power for the minister.

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And I just think Morrison didn't like the idea of anyone having more power than him.

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So, yeah.

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Okay.

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Back to, crikey and, this lawsuit.

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So they're doing crowd funding.

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I think they revealed, they've got something like 12 journalists work

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for crikey and he came out the figures for their income seemed fairly modest.

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It's quite a small organization.

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So if you haven't already and you like the idea of supporting them, then just

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get a subscription and private media.

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Hmm.

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What's that private media is the holding company.

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Okay.

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For crikey, crikey, right?

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Yup.

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sorry, you might, support them cause they will need assistance.

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And also what we had here was comments by Malcolm Turnbull about the Murdochs.

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So if, well actually before I get into that, Joe Biden says Rupert Murdoch is

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the most dangerous man in the world.

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I mean, if you want to start suing somebody for defamation, maybe Rupert

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Murdoch could have started with Joe Biden.

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because he's propaganda network is one of the most destructive

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forces in the United States.

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So that's what J Biden had decided that Rupert Murdoch, I don't think

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you can Sue a sitting president any, no, I don't think he can eat well.

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Of course, it's going to be difficult.

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Yeah.

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That's why Trump wants to get reelected.

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okay.

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What did Malcolm Turnbull say?

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Let's find out what he said about this whole thing.

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The role of, Fox news, which of course belongs to Rupert Murdoch,

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in the whole January six, attempted coup by Donald Trump is a matter

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of enormous public interest.

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The reality is the big lie that fueled that coup namely, that Trump had won

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the 20, 20 election and Biden had stolen it that big lie was propagated

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and amplified and promoted by Fox news.

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January six could not have happened without the toxic influence of Fox news.

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I mean, Rupert Marie.

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Has done more damage to American democracy than any other individual alive today.

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And he's done it through Fox news.

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And I can kind of tell you that may sound a bit controversial on the

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radio this morning, go to Washington.

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You would struggle.

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Oh, just the us, UK and Australia as well, I'd say.

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Mm Hmm.

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The problem is Laughlin is, is crazier than reap it.

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He's not as smart, but he's crazier.

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So at one point I was holding out hope that when Rupert would eventually, if

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he's not a vampire and will actually die at some point, maybe Laughlin

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so crazy that the whole rock shower will just fall into the ground fairly

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swiftly because of these mistakes come.

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Only one is possibly doing.

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just an evil malignant force in our community, responsible for a lot of stuff.

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And this is the part I, you know, this is one of my big arguments with, pull

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12 million over the years was Paul did not accept the propaganda effectiveness

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of the Murdoch empire and did not accept that journalists were cowed into

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complying with whatever the Murdoch doctorate was, editorial direction.

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Yeah.

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And actually sort of got into a, I didn't enter into an argument.

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I just, a friend of mine played squash with his sister was a sports

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journalist for, for Murdoch papers.

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And I think I was at a wedding of some sort where she was, and I started

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entering into this discussion and she was trying to say that there was no.

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Direction on her, in her activities.

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And I said, well, first of all, you're a sports journalist.

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And secondly, you know, you don't have to be told what to do, people figure it out.

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So, and I say, you only hire journalists to align to your views.

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Correct.

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It's all that, it, it, you know, do you accept the Noam Chomsky

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theory of manufacturing consent?

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And I think it's a pretty compelling argument and yeah, so it used to frustrate

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me with Paul 12 million that he, he would rarely accept that argument.

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I think also just the whole science done.

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I love fogs, but other murder rags, which is, you know, buying into the, find the

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one dissenting voice and amplify it.

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Yes.

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Provided that voice is one that somehow is in line with your own.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Needs of some sort.

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okay.

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I got my fourth COVID shot this morning.

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Creamies three have been Pfizer, went from the Dern of this

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time just to mix it up feeling.

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Okay.

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No real effects on COVID fourth.

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No, no.

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I only have my third.

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I was, I got nagged by my gastroenterologist to get my

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fourth and then the kids got COVID.

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So I get the feeling given that I was in the house with the two of them and

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they were both sick for a week each.

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that I've only certainly had an exposure, probably had it hardly.

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Yup.

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Yup.

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so I've got that, but, long COVID Joe that, I think this treasury, I think

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has estimated 31,000 Australian workers are calling in sick every day because of

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the debilitating symptoms of long-term.

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Treasury data.

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Given the news Corp papers shows 12% of the labor force is staying

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home sick because of the long-term after effects of the virus.

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So we should slash wages, make them more keen to get back to work

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because of the, just the poorer they are, the more they want to work.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Sorry.

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And this is, I thought, you know, news gore they'd be advocating for such things.

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my daughter's friend who's 17 and she was all gung ho let's let's get COVID,

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let's get it over and done with, and she was sick for a week or whatever she

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had to give up a gym membership really cannot do any form of cardio exercise.

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And this is presumably right?

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Yeah.

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You do hear these stories.

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Yeah, I know.

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It's not uncommon.

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Mm mm.

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Just, just, yeah.

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Being out of breath.

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after walking a couple of hundred meters, well people saying that

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their thinking is really fuzzy.

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They're not as alert for as long as they used to be.

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Yeah.

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So, it's, it's actually been pointed out that it's not uncommon after any virus.

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It's just, it seems to be because almost all of them, or rather large

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numbers of people have had COVID we're seeing post COVID, viral fatigue,

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which are around and other viruses.

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We just don't usually recognize it.

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yeah.

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So, long COVID, we'll see how that pans out over time.

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let's talk about our new labor government who, have come in and with a lot of

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Goodwill around the place, I think from the front, the media, at least, and

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from their own supporters and, you know, the sort of conservative supporters.

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I think accepted that the Morrison government was so bad, it just had to go.

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So they're sort of standing back and giving these guys half a chance.

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I, climate credentials out, looking real flesh so far for this new government.

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They, they told the world that the climate wars were either climbed.

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They will take climate change seriously, and they just approved 10 new ocean

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sites for oil and gas exploration.

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Just doesn't line up with what people might have been hoping and expecting.

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And the grains will be rubbing their hands together.

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I reckon with this, it doesn't surprise me.

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I thought labor were as bad.

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I mean, Palo Shay has been very much on board with Adani.

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I really don't see much of a difference between labor might be slightly better

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in terms of pushing for renewables.

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But yeah, they're still very keen to, I think there's far too much

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sponsorship, far too much money in Canberra from the oil and coal lobby.

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Yeah.

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And they've only had to show themselves just a little bit more progressive

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with, as opposed to the conservatives and that's not hard to do so.

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Yeah.

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You know, approving 10 new ocean sites and you're talking about being

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serious about this stuff and the more you just read in the paper about,

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but they weren't off of Morrison's electric and that's the important point.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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you know, the, the Greenland ice shelf, the droughts in England at the moment,

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you know, canals or Eastern rivers that used to run and try France dry.

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one of my English friends was actually saying they're finding

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more and more bodies as the reservoir levels are dropping.

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I'm sure.

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Why could you seem to, the Northern hemisphere is really facing some

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catastrophic stuff and we seem to be heading for another wet summer.

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It's, it's going to kind of catch up with us and it just

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looks like Morrison government.

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Isn't serious.

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It'll be interesting to see how the public takes it.

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Or the greens have just picked up another couple of notches in approval writing,

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I reckon as a result of that decision.

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Yeah.

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So, Joe, if you were trying to, encourage people to pass a future

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referendum about the voice, would you be importing a large American basketball

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player as part of your media camp?

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I don't know whether he was imported or whether he was

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over here for something else.

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And is it because he is revered by the Aboriginal community?

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I don't know.

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It did seem a bit left field.

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I think the argument from, Albanese was look we're at the point where we're

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just trying to raise awareness and we're trying to reach people who may not

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necessarily read the newspapers or read political sections or whatever, but who

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would, if they saw it, Shaq decide to pay attention to whatever he is here for.

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So I think that was the rationale was we've got to message this past the

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community we can't reach and a big American African-American basketball

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player will reach that demographic.

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Could you not have reached it some other way, other than

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importing a large American?

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Was it nobody in Australia?

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It was it now Australian indigenous.

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I, and you're not going to point out the point that he's a flat earth.

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Is it a flat earth cook?

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Yes.

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He claims that the plane that flew him here, didn't clue in a straight

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line because the earth is flat.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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I'm surprised he didn't say that.

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we're all paid actors because you know, the other flat earth

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conspiracies Australia is made up within the world actors.

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Yeah.

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I think he might've been here for other reasons and it's sort of, I

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don't think they paid him a thing he did for free, but I just, if I was

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the Australian prime minister, I would just not be using American culture

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on such a vital Australian issue.

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It just to me.

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Rankles with me.

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And I, you know, there are, there's some successful indigenous basketball

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players like Patty mills or others who, I mean, the guy held the flag in

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the Olympics or whatever, like this there's all sorts of other people.

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He surely could reach that demographic with add, a big American who was

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admittedly a great federal opportunity.

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Just the size of the guy compared to Morrison was, was Banting

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get photographs, I guess.

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But, yeah, I just think relying on American culture for such

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an Australian problem issue

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and you know, how, how relevant to the day as, sports people toward

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the average Australian, as opposed to an indigenous rugby player.

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Mm mm.

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Anyway, that was that.

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Kevin says, well, there goes any respect I had for shack, and Brahman, why do

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we need the endorsement of a foreigner?

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We need to work these things out for ourselves.

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I know it's such an Australian issue to bring in a foreigner with no

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particular expertise, honestly, that move, I wouldn't have done if I was

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him anyway, stage three tax cuts.

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So while the conservatives were in power, they proposed some tax cuts and library

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grade to them at the time as part of the small target strategy and the tax cuts,

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not, were not to take effect immediately.

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They were to take effect at some time in the future, which will be

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during, this term of the parliament.

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So people are saying.

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Yeah, well, budget situation.

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Isn't looking that flash and you're supposed to be alive a government.

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So maybe you could think about not, you know, you could reverse this

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decision about the tax cuts so time.

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No, no.

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It's far too late in the day too many people have made financial plans based

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on this that we can't reverse it.

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When did they say that the election right.

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People have made commitments based on their tax cut.

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So we can't, eh, so I think it was either just before.

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I think it was just after the election.

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They said, no, no, we're going ahead with them because they do use kick in

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any time and people have already made.

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Because couple's on $200,000 who bought that investment property.

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we're doing this spreadsheet out into the next 10 years and had factored in more

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disposable money income because of a, of a tax break that they were going to get.

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And you know, that landlords are doing art at the moment.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's an argument.

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so what are the tax cuts anyway?

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So they're going to remove the 37 cents in the dollar tax bracket,

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and they're going to allow her the 32 and a half cent bracket.

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And they're going to rise the top tax bracket to start a 200,000

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where it used to be 190,000.

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So if you make 50,000 a year, the listener, which is kind of near the

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median income, not the average, but the median, you're going to save $2 40 per.

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But if you make 200,000 a year, you're gonna save 73 times of that.

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You're gonna save $174 a week.

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so the richest, 1% of Australians will get as much money from the stage

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three tax cuts as the poorest 65% combined and alive, the government

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looks like proceeding with this.

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so there's two arguments.

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One is you're alive.

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The government you supposed to be for the working class is supposed

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to be about trying to even out the inequality in our society.

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And the other argument is, well, you committed to this.

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And you promised people that you would pass these.

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It was all part of your small target strategy.

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If you were to go back on that promise, then nobody will

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ever trust you ever again.

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And so let's find the two arguments.

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I've got clips for the first one, which is, Rick Morton.

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I quite like Rick Morton.

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He writes for the Sunday paper and, I hear him on different things.

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And he's going to give the argument as to why live assured

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look at reversing this decision.

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So we'll play this one.

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I think this government is better than a poke in the eye with the

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burnt stick, which certainly is what the previous government offered,

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which was basically just terrible decisions after terrible decisions.

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So it's very easily.

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Let you do a competent job.

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And I think they are doing a competent job competent, solid, not spectacular.

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And in fact, quite disappointing in some areas.

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and you know, it's a really low bar that they've cleared, disappointing them.

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What areas?

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Ah, well, I think we've got a cost of living crisis and I've, I'll be banging

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on about this until the day I die.

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But, if you are particularly from the labor party or a party that cares about,

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you know, workers and people who are not the top end of town, and you've

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got a cost of living crisis and you get into power and you don't do anything

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to help the people at the very bottom of that ladder, that why do you exist?

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I really, I really wonder about that and I know what they would say, which

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is that we are trying to be a government that's here for three terms or longer,

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and you can only do good things when you're there for a long time.

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And I totally get that, but I worry that, you know, people who are

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starving now can't wait three tenths and that's, that's the problem.

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Common sort of, talk is that live has got their eye on a decade in power.

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I think that the liberals are so crushed that if they play this correctly,

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they'll be in payoff for a long time.

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I'm now arguing.

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The other way would be guy Randall from crikey.

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He wrote an article.

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So I'm gonna read some excerpts from it.

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He says label won't reverse the stage three tax cuts taxes by civilization

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only works in a social democracy.

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Now working class families, what their own life course reneging on cats would

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be a political killer, says Rundle libel would be committing political self-harm

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of the first order by canceling or even modifying the stage three cats.

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It wave them through when they were brought to parliament

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2019, which was something that Rundell was arguing in five ROV.

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In order not to get snarled on the issue politically in pursuit of a

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lighter majority, it was absolutely right to do so, had it not done.

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So its opposition to the cuts, my well of being the means by which it was held

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below a full majority, having lost in 2019, partly due to the franking credits

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stuff up, it was leaving nothing to chance the decision and its ramifications

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indicate where we are all at what libraries now and what's possible.

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Spoiler alert, not much.

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So, so far Rundle sign, they had to do it in order to get the majority that

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they got and not to repeat the franking credits disaster of the shorten election.

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he goes on, there has been an implicit and explicit called a focus tax

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policy around collective commitment and the common good, but he says,

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this is nostalgia for the Whitlam.

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When we are on the road or trying to be to a social democracy in which individual

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and family Goodwill band up with common good, but that possibility is gone.

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It's been gone for some time and it really only existed for a few decades

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after world war two and was decisively killed off by Orkin Keating initiatives.

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So there was only a brief time post world war two, according to Randall, that we had

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the chance to convert to a more European social democracy and we didn't make it.

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And now most Australians look over a social landscape in which the

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long journey to self and family life must be managed as an individual.

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it's a tough to Rhine to try and say taxes by civilization.

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And he basically says people aren't going to buy it.

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The labor party should concentrate on taxing corporations and.

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Yeah, it goes on essentially saying that Australia doesn't value community

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and paying taxes for our civilization.

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It wouldn't have one.

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It doesn't want it now where essentially moved in the American

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model rather than the European model.

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We're all about individual freedom and our family buggered the community and

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he couldn't have done the tax cuts.

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And if he was to do then people wouldn't appreciate it.

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So they're not going to do it.

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That's the sort of guy run ball theory on it, which is quite depressing.

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But I am saying the chat room.

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And if you tax corporations rather than individuals, I think most

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people would get on board with that, especially the way there.

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I think a lot of people are very upset with the offshoring of wealth.

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Yes, they'll let you go as hard as you possibly can on these

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multinationals, but it's not easy.

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Just actually designing the text to do it, having the, yeah, I mean it's possible.

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And essentially that's what God is saying is forget the tax cuts on personal income.

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Let it go and try and make up for it with corporate techs.

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So, I guess it shows in the recent royalties changes with the Caltex

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in Queensland, where they really bumped up significantly and you

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know, a bit of moaning and grounding of course, from the mining sector.

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But the average Joe on the street hasn't been, hasn't been

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crying any tears for the minors.

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So that's a good example, I guess.

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all right.

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what do we got here?

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And also it's a profits based tax.

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So if mine is to doing it hard, they don't pay any tax, correct?

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Yep.

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So if there's a super profits arising through super high commodity prices, then

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actually it's based on price per time.

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I think so.

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Not quite profit, but essentially profit though.

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Yeah.

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So, yup.

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Right.

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so we'll see how that pans out, but it's, the money at the moment seems

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to be online and not doing something, but some people think they might.

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alright.

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Did you have a student line, Joe, when you were in the, I never went to uni.

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Oh, right.

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Okay.

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Thank you.

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You did an apprenticeship wrong, right?

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You have an apprenticeship line, right?

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I got paid to study not much, but I did get paid.

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In the U S the Biden administration has decided to, write off some student

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debts and this, I think between 10 and 20,000, or the amounts that have been

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written off and it's causing a bit of a problem in the sense, not so much

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people saying we can't afford this, although there's a bit of that, but the

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main argument is I paid my debt off.

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Why these people should be paying their debt off as well.

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It's unfair.

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Yeah.

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I, it was on a Jordan Peterson who was going, I worked 60 hour weeks and the

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holidays and 40 hour weeks whilst I was studying and paid my way, I did, I had

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zero student debt at the end of uni.

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why shouldn't other people pay their way basically is yeah.

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most of the people who say this actually we're in the time when university degrees

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were either very, very cheap or free.

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Yes.

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So most of the politicians here, most of the politicians, the U S well, you

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know, not necessarily went through because it'll be a lot of winter

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Ivy league, but there were community colleges that you go to for free.

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yep.

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Yep.

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And there, isn't a massive problem in America with people who get a degree,

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can't get a decent job with it, end up with a debt and quite a lot of

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people with a debt around the $10,000 mark that they'll just never pay off.

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And it's an, a real, penalty around their neck.

Speaker:

So, so it's interesting where people who, some of the biggest critics are people.

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Essentially had a debt themselves and pay it off and say, well, you

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can't let these people get off.

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They've got to learn somehow how to do it.

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It's a little bit mean-spirited isn't it.

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I didn't go as a university.

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I think the problem is we've made university.

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It used to be, you finished secondary school.

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Some people went to university.

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If it was relevant to a job, or we've now said, oh, you need a degree to do this.

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You need a degree to do that.

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And I don't think we do.

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I think we are, we we've devalued the vocational training apprenticeships.

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Yes.

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and we are telling everybody that they need to go to university and they need to

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borrow a large amount of money to do so.

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I think we should make university free.

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and say, we're paying for these particular skills that we

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need these particular traits.

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Right.

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If you want to do anything other than that, and you know, maybe

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some of them are arts degrees.

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but, but I think we need to cap this and say, right, it's free for

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the best students in these areas.

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so you would be happy with something that subsidized degrees that led to

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definite jobs thinking I'm thinking, teaching engineering doctor, for example,

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maybe not so much if it was a generalist humanities arts degree, which examined

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English, literature, history or something like, again, I think there's some value

Speaker:

in that, but does nursing need to be.

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Nursing historically it was a vocational trade it's optional these days.

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I think you can either do it kind of in-house working or through a degree.

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I think, I think my son has two different pathways mandatory, but I could be wrong.

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I think it's got two different pathways.

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I think the problem is we've liberalized the market.

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now, now tertiary education is a for-profit industry.

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so they're desperate to get people through their doors.

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And I think that's the biggest problem is it's gone from being, we want to

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educate these people to, we want to make as much profit by selling them

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courses that they don't necessarily fit.

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Yes.

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We've got KPIs measure money.

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Yup.

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And numbers, and don't necessarily measure.

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Well-rounded individuals.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, I, I, years ago I would have been very much of the view that, you know,

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probably should be, subsidized for degrees that were leading to a specific job.

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But as I get older and older, I just think we need, I like the idea of humanities.

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I think people just, learning stuff about history and about

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philosophy and other things.

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There's just not enough people doing that stuff.

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So I think our society is, suffering because not enough people have been

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reading and understanding that stuff and contributing at that level.

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So we've become quite illiterate, you know, in a philosophy since so, and

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this little podcast, dear listener, isn't it an attempt to redress that.

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So, Yeah.

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So anyway, that's student debt in America.

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So some of the comments I was reading on Twitter was, from a Caitlyn Bern,

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she wrote, if you have a problem with the student line cancellation, because

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you already paid off your loans, just pretend it's a tax cut for the rich that

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you also never got that mysteriously.

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Didn't complain a bit like that one.

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I saw a Maman that charred, Jesus with the loaves and fishes.

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And it said something like the people who brought their own lunch should be pissed.

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And, a headline from the shovel, Ted Cruz tells students to become a bank

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if they want their debt forgiven.

Speaker:

And, this guy, Jim banks, a Republican politician said student line forgiveness

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undermines one of our military's greatest recruitment tools at a time.

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actually said it.

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If we were, if we wipe off these lines, people won't need to join the

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military as a matter of necessity.

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Cause that's one of the things about joining the military is

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they'll pick up your student loan.

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Yeah.

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Actually said it.

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So, what are they saying?

Speaker:

The chat room?

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Alison heck started the year after I got my degree.

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Yeah.

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I think Alison, I think six months after mine, six, I make

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her have to pay six months.

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Can't remember I sort of part-time at the end, so yeah.

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And John's saying that rich people tutor their kids and

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therefore they get better grades.

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Mm.

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is there a better way of measuring merit?

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Yeah.

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And well, Joe is merit something that should be rewarded anyway

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because the meritocracy argument.

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Look back a hundred episodes or so was really making the case that marriage

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is not a good way of rewarding people.

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Cause it, relies on a whole bunch of things beyond people's control.

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Right.

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But are they the alternative to that is bringing mediocre students into courses

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that they struggle to keep up with.

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don't want to let any of that.

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None of these things are easy, but I think, I think it's crazy particularly

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in the U S because that's what I tend to read more of the, the level of debt that

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people are saddled with, is just, you cannot bankrupt yourself out of that debt.

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It's one of the few things that's right.

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Almost any other debt you could claim bankruptcy, but not the student debt.

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Yeah.

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I did read that somewhere as well, so yeah.

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Alright.

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I did have here on a list, some stuff by Caitlin Johnston

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been she's such an angry woman.

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I admire that she maintains the rage as she just continually criticizes the USI.

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And, she just cops it on Twitter from all sorts of people, calling her a simp for

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the, for the Chinese and for the Russians.

Speaker:

But she's basically says the U S empire is the biggest bunch of Boston running

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around this planet by a long shot.

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So we should be concentrating on criticizing them in while

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the other guys aren't perfect.

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They're nowhere near as bad as these guys.

Speaker:

And that's where she's going to continue to, to focus her efforts.

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So I quite like reading her stuff because she's just got a

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good turn of phrase quite often.

Speaker:

And just an example, we, Joe, apparently in the last 24 hours,

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Biden has asked Congress to approve a $1.1 billion arms sale for Taiwan.

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it's important.

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These guys really know how to market, you know, send someone over

Speaker:

Pelosi, stir up more trouble and, and get your market really riled

Speaker:

up and then sell them some weapons.

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yeah, it's Caitlin Johnson says anyone else getting deja VU and,

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and we continue to hook ourselves up with these guys and Marco Rubio.

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he had something to say about this stuff.

Speaker:

So let me play a clip from him.

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So by this one and our job, honestly, the most important job I will.

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If we get reelected.

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Well, we got to do real things here.

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Okay.

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But we need to focus the federal government on what matters.

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I don't, we don't need a military focused on the proper use of pronouns.

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We need the military focused on blowing up Chinese aircraft carriers.

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yep.

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We needed a military focused on blowing up Chinese aircraft carriers.

Speaker:

So because we're just responsible citizens in the world that everyone should love.

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What if, why don't people love us in America?

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He's probably asking.

Speaker:

So just shameless warmongering by these characters.

Speaker:

And, and the propaganda just keeps, keeps supporting them, public assets

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and the privatization of public assets.

Speaker:

I sort of thing on Twitter, Joe, about, electricity bills

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in the UK are essentially.

Speaker:

For small businesses, five times what they were being, what they were paying before.

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So you might have a bakery where your annual electricity bill was

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something like 10,000 pounds.

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And now that's 50,000 pounds with that incredible price hike in

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electricity, businesses, all over the place having to shut down.

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I've just got no capacity to pay the extra electricity charge.

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Yeah.

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I've got friends in the UK who are very concerned that come winter.

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They're not going to be able to heat to survive.

Speaker:

so apparently residential has got a cap, so it's not quite as bad as commercial.

Speaker:

Maybe they're paying two and a half, three times what they were

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paying previously, but the sort of cap doesn't apply to commercial.

Speaker:

So just a whole bunch of small business.

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faced with this enormous increase in their electricity.

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And it's not bullshit.

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Like they're producing the invoices and the letters that they're getting from

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the, from the, electricity providers.

Speaker:

And it spills it out really clearly how much extra they paying.

Speaker:

So many businesses are going to go bust in the UK.

Speaker:

If you were there, you'd want to get out Joe places hidden for ruin.

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At what point do you buy your own generator?

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Well, and apparently lots of people are buying solar, but

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solar, the UK is not exactly.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, the generator needs to go to run on diesel.

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Haven't you?

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I mean, how much is that going to cost?

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I don't know.

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Twice as much as it used to, but okay.

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But does it still work out, but you could value your business?

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Yeah.

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It's gotta be a breakeven point where it's cheaper to, to run your own

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generator than to buy off the grid.

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Quite possibly.

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What possibly.

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So, incidentally John in the chat room with our argument about nuclear,

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if I was in, the Northern hemisphere in Europe or somewhere, I might be a

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supporter of it because it might work out.

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But here in Australia, we have so much wind, so much solar that

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it's clearly the case that we're doing the math in Australia,

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that we should be on renewables, not considering nuclear at all.

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But if I was in a rainy, either cast small European country that couldn't

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generate solar or wind and had huge population basement compared to the

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land mass, maybe nuclear would work.

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We'd have to be the option there.

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I don't know.

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I used to live about 40 kilometers from an equally pass station.

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So from the, from the roof of my parents' house, you could

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see, Flamanville power station.

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And kept a log nuclear reprocessing plant, which I looked on Google

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maps the other day is all pixelated.

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Right?

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When you zoom in, just in case a terrorist wants to do some scouting.

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but I remember when we got the power cable laid across the bit

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of water between us and them.

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And yeah, we used to have, how are two hour long breakdowns on a regular

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basis of power and suddenly we were getting cheap French electricity.

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Yeah.

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Which was all nuclear was great.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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If you went back, you'd probably still getting outages now because of the erosion

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and the fact that they can't cool, the nuclear reactor because of the warm water.

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But yeah, we discussed the other day possibly because after, Brexit,

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the price of the Euro has changed.

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Indeed.

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Yeah.

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So, I've got an article here now.

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I'm going to read a fair bit of settling in.

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Because it's by yanas for a Farkas and regular listeners would

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know that he's the only person.

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I only, only guy I admit to having a bit of a man crush for.

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So love yanas for far, cause he's such a he's delivery.

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When you're hearing speak.

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It's got an interesting way of talking and love his ideas

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and he's a straight shooter.

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And, yeah, so he's talking about, electricity in Europe.

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So I'm gonna talk about that and then I'm gonna swing around to Australia, and make

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it all relevant to the Australian context.

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So, James says I was going to say that about, or horses for courses

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are about my, my main crush on yanas.

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Anyway, Athens.

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The CNC ferric pharmacy in project syndicate Athens, the blades of

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the wind turbines on a mountain range, opposite my window.

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A turning, especially energetically to die.

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Last night storm has abided, but high winds continue contributing extra

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kilowatts to the electricity grid at precisely zero additional cost or marginal

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cost in the language of economists.

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But the people struggling to make ends meet during a dreadful cost of living

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crisis must pay for these kilowatts as if they were produced at the most

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expensive liquefied, natural gas, transported to greases shores from Texas.

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So it's cheap wind power, but the Greeks have to pay as if it was expensive.

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Natural gas imported from Texas.

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You'll explain why, it stems from the delusion that states meaning government.

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Can simulate a competitive and efficient electricity market

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because only one electricity cable enters a home or a business.

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If you lift matters to the market, it would lead to a perfect monopoly

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and outcome that nobody wants, but governments decided they could

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simulate a competitive market to replace the public utilities that

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used to generate and distribute power.

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But our Yannis is going to argue that they can't.

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So the EU obliged its member states.

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It's a hard thing.

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Part of the hearing to privatize the power stations, to create new

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companies, which would compete with one another to provide electricity

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to a new company that owned the grid.

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And this company in turn would lease its cables to another host of companies

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that would buy the electricity house.

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And compete amongst themselves for the retail business of the homes in

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firms sound familiar, previously, government owned it and sold it.

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Now, banter, power stations, competing with each other to supply it to

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an artificially created entity who then sells it to a bunch of other

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companies who are competing at that retail level, the money by building

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infrastructure that they don't need.

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And then charging interest on that infrastructure.

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I that's not the argument he makes in this one.

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We'll get to it.

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so, yeah, so the theory was competition amongst producers would

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minimize the wholesale price while competition amongst retailers would,

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would lead to lower retail prices.

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So if you are the, competition mindset, competition fixes everything.

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This seemed to be the ticket.

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less, none of this could be mine to work.

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So part of this is that this model faced a contradiction.

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It had to ensure a minimum amount of electricity within the grid and

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it needed to promote green energy.

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So the solution proposed was fold.

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They had to create another market for permissions to emit greenhouse gases.

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so there would be penalties that you had to pay if you

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were emitting greenhouse gases.

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So that would, try to entice groups to guy for greener power.

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And the other part of this was, introduced marginal cost pricing, which meant that

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the wholesale price of every kilowatt should equal the costliest kilowatt.

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So if you've got multiple people providing money into the grid,

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you might have a wind farm.

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It's essentially able to supply $20 per megawatt, and you might have, some other

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solar farm able to provide it at 40, but you might have some guests turbine.

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That's providing it at 120, and then everybody gets paid 120.

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And, that was the way they set it up to make sure that there'll be enough,

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supply in theory, the more industry that relied on fuels like brown, coal,

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the larger, they would have to pay for their sort of emission permits, which

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would drive up their price and would encourage people to switch to renewables.

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And this marginal cross pricing was intended to ensure that, there would

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be a minimum level of electricity supply and, the low cost guys would

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not undercut the high cost guy.

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Instead that would just make a super profit on it.

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And that would encourage people to go for the low cost renewable, power supply.

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Cause they'd be making these super profits.

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So to see what the regulators had in mind consider a hydro electric

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power station and a coal-fired one.

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The fixed cost of building the hydro electric station is large,

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but the marginal cost is zero.

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Once the water turns a turbine, the next kilowatt, cost nothing in contrast,

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the coal-fired power station is cheap to build or cheaper to build, but,

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there's a marginal cost reflecting the fixed amount of coal that you need to

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burn her kilowatt by fixing the price of every kilowatt produced, in the

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hydro electric situation to be no less than the marginal cost of using brown.

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They wanted to reward the hydro electric company with a fat profit

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to encourage them to keep doing it.

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And for people to build more renewables.

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meanwhile coal-fired guys would be operating at almost zero profits.

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So they'd be wanting to sort of get out of the market, but the reality was less

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forgiving for this theory as the pandemic wrecked or wreaked havoc on global supply

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chains, the price of natural gas rose and before trebling, after Russia invaded

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Ukraine, suddenly the most polluting fuel ran coal was not the most expensive.

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So, the most expensive was natural gas in people who were burning coal

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would be getting the price from burning the expensive natural gas.

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So they were making good money, keep burning coal, Marginal cost pricing

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helped power companies extract huge rents from outrage, retail, consumers,

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who realize that we're paying much more than the average cost of electricity.

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So when the public saying now benefits from these wind farms,

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we're thinking, what the heck have we got these wind farms fall?

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So, the rising cost in natural prices exposed, problems where

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you try and simulate a market.

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We try and artificially create one.

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So, it's he says it's time to wind down simulated electricity markets.

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What we need instead are public energy networks in which electricity

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prices represent Everage costs.

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Plus I small mock-up.

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So when you look at the situation in Europe and the rising cost of

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electricity, It's not just that the price of gas went up because

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of Russia and all the rest of it.

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It's just that also these cheaper forms of energy, the hydro electric and the

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brown coal, we're actually able to charge that higher price as well because of

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the way that the market is structured.

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So it wasn't just one segment of the market, but got expensive hallmark.

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It shot out.

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Irrespective, where did the money go to large corporations who happened to own?

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Imagine Joe, if you owned a hydro electric power generator, it's cost nothing.

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Having bought it to generate electricity and you're able to recoup at the price

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of super expensive natural gas now.

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So, this is the problem with selling off public infrastructure.

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Yeah.

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And what you could do actually is take those profits and use them to pay to

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insulate houses and work basically to make your electricity use much more efficient.

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yeah.

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single government operating it.

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You could be discharging people, the average cost of the electricity.

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And meanwhile, you could be directing the market into the types of

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production that you wanted to do.

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these artificial mechanisms have failed.

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Well, I'm not the whole whinge about the carbon tax was going to make

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our electricity use more expensive.

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And therefore we're going to pay more on the power bill.

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The whole point was to make us use the less electricity.

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Yes.

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The point was to make it worthwhile, to insulate your house rather than just

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turn on the air conditioner every day.

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Yeah.

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it seems to that they're just, there's this lack of, Hey, maybe

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we should use less electricity.

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How do we do that?

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If you remember the whole, the millennium drought, there was a big push by the

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Queensland government on water reduction.

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And so they said, right, we'll pay for a client, a plumber to come

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out for free and he will replace the gaskets on your leaking taps.

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And he will put a shower rows in that uses less water.

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Yup.

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Yup.

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Yup.

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and there was a thing about late install, a power meter that would measure

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your parents or over a bunch of your light bulbs for compact fluorescent.

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Yes.

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Yep.

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But we need to be looking at that more and more about consumption.

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Yeah.

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yeah.

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I cheap loans to replace.

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Shitty windows with thesis windows that actually, keep a bit of the heat out

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or to put good insulation in your roof.

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I mean, that was the pink bat scheme, but we don't know how effective that

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was, but we need to look more at how do we reduce the average energies?

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And there was also, talk about the problem with rooftop solar, which

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is getting more and more is the infrastructure is not designed to

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handle the generation of electricity in residential areas and moving it

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to, you know, during the day you're generating it and residential areas and

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shipping it to industrial areas and the infrastructure is not designed for that.

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And so there's discussion about, neighborhood level batteries where

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the rooftop solar charges it during the day and then at night, The

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local area uses the battery that they've charged during the day.

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And that means that you don't need as large cables going into or out of an area.

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And it makes sense to decentralize these things as well.

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So when there is a disaster it's limited, you don't have

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all your eggs in one basket.

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I'm still getting my head around Paul wiper in Canberra, giving 56

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cents per kilowatt or whatever, even for the electricity users that was

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systemizing to put it into the grid, even if he just used it himself.

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Incredible.

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Yeah.

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So it's not, I think if you use it, cause I had a friend who was

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on a similar score scheme up here.

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It was you, you paid 50 cents for generating it and then you bought

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it back from the power company.

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So you paid them, sorry they paid you 50 cents.

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And then you bought it back from them at whatever your standard meter rate.

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Yeah, I don't think you were getting the difference.

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I think the Canberra deal was even better than that.

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Paul was describing it.

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Yeah.

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He was literally using it.

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And then pied, even though he was the one using it is.

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Yeah.

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It made sense to, I think use electricity during the evenings

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on the, on the old scheme.

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And now it makes sense to use that electricity because basically if

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you're using the electricity, you're generating during the daytime, are

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they going to pay you less for that?

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So you're paying less per electricity.

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Yep.

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than if you're buying it from the grid in the evening.

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anyway, that was last week with Paul, now in Australia, ah, it just going

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back to that, I'm going to get to a book by a guy called Lev small.

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I think his name is.

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it'd been recommended to me, essentially.

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It's saying that we consume why too much, in terms of electricity, but

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also just things like, fertilizer that is needed for growing the crops that

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feed the world relies on, on fossil fuel to generate the fertilizer.

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I was going to say there's a, there's a world earth day or something,

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which is basically the day in the year where we've used up enough

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resources that we so a year's worth of resources for it to remain renewable.

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So we're not depleting the Earth's energy or the, what are the years

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that I think it's sometime around may or June I currently, yeah, it is.

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We've used up a year.

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A year's worth of.

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yep.

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Resources.

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Yep.

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So even if we build this infrastructure of renewables, we're still gonna be

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faced with, having to reduce consumption.

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And so things like the amount of energy that goes into producing fertilizer,

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which is producing crops, which were then feeding into animals and then eating

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the animals, it's inefficient where we should just be eating the crop rather

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than running it through an animal and having their protein and, just the amount

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of energy that's required for steel and concrete and all that sort of stuff.

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So I'll get to that book, but I think consumption is going to be a big issue.

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there's a big push towards wooden skyscrapers now.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I'm just saying, I saw something about how they're getting

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bigger and bigger skyscrapers.

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They're getting the strength out of what they call manufactured wood.

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So where they're building up laminate.

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Of, multiple layers, much like plywood and it's much, much stronger than natural

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wood because it doesn't have the defects.

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Yeah.

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The best ones is one day on near, the exhibition down there at bound Hills.

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Oh, okay.

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A mate of mine, are quite dense lives in it or lives beside it.

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It's sort of about eight stories high, I think.

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And the reason they made it of wood was because it's over the tunnel and they

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needed the white to be reduced in order to build, top of one of the tunnels that was

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sort of not that deep in that vicinity.

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So that's why they used a wooden interesting skyscraper.

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They now back to Australia and, bringing in this electricity idea eventually.

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And let's talk about Paul Keating and like.

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So many people think of privatization as a policy of

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conservative parties in Australia.

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However, it was Paul Keating's labor that initiated a gigantic

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fire sale of public assets.

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in the 1990s, Paul Keating's labor government kicked off one of the most

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aggressive waves of privatization seen in the developed world, resulting fire,

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Sal transferred a vast amount of public wealth to the private sector, Keating

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cyl of Quantis and the Commonwealth bank of the two most notorious examples.

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But the damage was deeper and wider than people realize he made sweeping

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reforms that lied the groundwork for two decades of privatization and

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outsourcing, Cornea this article, which is from Jacobin magazine.

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That'll tell you how it's a lefty.

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It's a very lefty, it's so left, but it's criticizing, for locating

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the, again, it says Keating's near liberalization of the Australian economy

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paved the way for his liberal success.

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John Howard, who went on to accelerate the transformation that Keating started.

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and we can now draw up a damning balance sheet of the whole experiment.

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So Hawk abolish tariffs, floated the dollar, introduced the prices of income

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accord that drastically undermined the ability of trade unions to organize.

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These reforms lied the basis for labor's privatization wave.

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there was a national competition policy review known as the Hilma committee and

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it inspired a national competition policy.

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And it was all about creating competitive markets in Australia

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society and in 95, 19 95, Keating's federal government endorsed every

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recommendation of that Hilmer report.

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So every state government, every state and territory, government followed

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suit and soon governments across the nation were aggressively enforcing a

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competitive market logic in crucial sectors like electricity, gas, IVI should

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finance, transport and communications, crucially it impose competitive

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neutrality on public enterprises.

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So previously publicly owned services and institutions had benefited from

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advantageous frameworks or were able to borrow money at cheaper government.

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Right.

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They are exempt from tax and they weren't required to turn up.

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So competitive neutrality changed all this.

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It insisted that governments had district public companies have these

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advantages, forcing them to function like private corporations and compete.

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John Howard took this to its logical conclusion by

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initiating the sale of Telstra.

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And then Julie Gilad sell the last of Telstra.

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Proponents of neo-liberalism have argued that competitive markets deliver services

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cheaper and more efficiently, but the public know that this to be a lie.

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And since privatizations, since privatization levels of productivity and

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efficiency in the electricity system have declined while the costs have ballooned.

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And there was a report from the Australia Institute and what it found was.

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Real output per employees in the electricity sector has fallen by 37%.

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under private ownership, the number of managers employed by electricity

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providers has doubled the number of silo.

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Staff has quadrupled, but over the same period, the number of actual electrical

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trades people as around about 21%.

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So people actually do stuff directly related to supplying

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electricity, but it's more efficient.

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So they got rid of half of them.

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I only grew by 21%, the sales staff quadrupled and, the management doubled.

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So incredibly the electricity sector now spends more on finance and banking.

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Then it does on the fuel that powers its generators.

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This is just the takeover of our economy by the.

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Finance insurance sector.

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Anyway, I had guys on, in 95, there were a couple of economists released an animal

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and an analysis showing that, Australia is publicly owned pharmaceutical company,

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the Commonwealth serum laboratories, CSL, the privatization of that cost taxpayers.

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This is a 90, 95, $607 million, partly because he's trying

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government now had to buy services from the newly privatized CSL.

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And partly because of loss of revenue and assets, the fiscal impact of the cyl

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is the same as if the government would have borrowed 607 million competed commit

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itself to paying interest on that Sanford.

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and simply dissipate the funds.

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So as disastrous for the public CSL is near the most valuable corporation

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listed on Australia stock exchange the market capitalization of 140 billion.

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And in 95 we sold it for 607 million.

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Ah, excellent.

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Him night.

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Would it basic, so successful?

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Had we not sold it?

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All right.

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Yes, indeed.

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Indeed.

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That's the question?

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actually it says here in 93, Katie and seldom for 299 million, roughly

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half a billion in today's money.

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So that's where the 140 and keying solid for half a billion in today's money.

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And they underestimated the true cost of it because.

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the Commonwealth government just solved a deal that involves paying CSL $1

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billion to purchase medical products.

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The company had developed when it was owned by the government, ah,

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to die the largest shareholders of Telstra, Quantas CSL, and the

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Commonwealth bank are multi-national hedge funds and investment banks.

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Have you had a black rock?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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BlackRock and the Vanguard group can be something on BlackRock in

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the weeks to come huge company.

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so what it says here is essential services like electricity or

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telecommunications were formerly provided at cost, but now consumers must

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subsidize private profit margins and the increased running costs associated

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with the bloated corporate structure.

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between 96 and 2016.

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So a 20 year period electricity prices increased by 183%, three times

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more than the right of inflation.

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That's what a competition gets.

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You.

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It's better for the consumer though.

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The few remaining, publicly owned electricity supplies have also hiked

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their prices because they have to follow the principles of competition.

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And why wasn't there objection to this privatization and any internal

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labor party review, after the loss to Howard identified that this

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privatization was one of the main reasons amongst the disillusionment

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among labor's working class voters.

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And so Keating did it, and it was one of the major reasons why

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he lost a working class voters.

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Remind deeply opposed to the south of public assets.

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And as an example, Queensland's a clear cut example.

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In 2012 Queensland ly bar dropped from 51 seats to just seven after Anna Bligh

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pushed through deeply unpopular program of privatizing major ports, roads, and rail.

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So, both parties have been pushing through the sale of

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assets, ordinary people, object.

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They're a result of all this extra competition is all paying more money.

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So these things are structural.

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The why the been designed to create artificial markets that have provided

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sweet deals for the corporations involved.

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It's not just all about Russia and a sudden shortage of gas.

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It's a case where that particular event is just amplified because of these crazy

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pricing mechanisms that are in built.

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And, so it's, it's more to it than just blind potent.

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It's actually blind Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.

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And neo-liberalism whoa, how this is accelerated of what could have

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been as much smaller problem.

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Milton, is it Milton school of an economics boys?

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Yup.

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Yup, yup.

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And architect of all that.

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So, ah, is that not a sad and depressing title and yeah, I mean, I was knocking

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around at the time, but it you're busy.

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You're raising kids.

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I didn't, I wasn't paying attention to these things.

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It's like, ah, it must be.

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You don't, you're not taught to think about the future.

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I don't know.

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Did you look at it askance at the time though?

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Or do you think I've going to get some of this I'm going to, I'm going

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to buy some of these Telstra shares.

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Cause they're too cheap.

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I was a teenager and that bought shares in British gas in my name.

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and then, you know, basically I think we sold them off the next

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day because we got on the IPO yeah.

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And made a couple of hundred quid on it.

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Some, some Palmy friends of ours came out to Australia, just like

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the UK was doing it before us.

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and they had seen these privatizations happening over there.

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And what would happen is the government would, would sell this stuff off

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cheap because I, they were convinced by the brokers and B it would look.

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That it was all sold.

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It was seen as a success if you managed to sell off all the shares.

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And, there were well over subscribed and people were making huge profits.

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Exactly.

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And everyone was profiting in the sales.

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Yes.

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So in all of our, when these Palmy friends come to Australia, as Australia started,

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doing this sort of stuff, now we're into every one of them are piling them

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up and, and subscribing to these things because it was just money for nothing.

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These things were being just sold too cheap.

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And, you know, future generations gonna look back at some of this

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stuff and just, be really angry.

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I, it was interesting because, Jersey telecom was small government owned

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and my former boss got involved with trust drafting the legislation

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when it was due to be privatized.

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and I had a long chat with him about.

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and he was talking about the fact that, the richest customers or effectively

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subsidizing the poorest customers to the tune of, I think he was saying 50

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pounds a month previously, previously.

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So, so the banks, the banks, we were making huge profits.

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There was a single bank, which was 50% of our revenue, one bank,

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because it was off shore finance and effectively it was subscribed.

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It was subsidizing every single home user 50 pounds.

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and was saying, when you deregulate people will come in and pick up

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the cream and leave the crap.

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Yep.

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And he says, there's two ways of doing it.

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Either you force the companies to.

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For every one premium customer, they have to take whatever it is, five home users.

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Yup.

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Or you tax them.

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Yep.

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And you say for every one of these, you have to pay the incumbent or

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whoever's looking after the, the average customer to, to pay the difference.

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And I think that's, what's happened with Telstra is the Bush customers.

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Telstra is subsidized by because most of the other operators only operate in

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the regional cities in sorry, in the capital cities or in the major cities.

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Yeah.

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Because infrastructure is relatively cheap and you get good profits.

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Whereas you talk out, out in the Bush, if you huge investments

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to get a phone line out there.

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Yep.

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And you, what's the phone company that starts with a V I think Birgit.

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No, the other one.

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If you get the main ones are Telstra, Optus and Vodafone, Vodafone.

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And so they can just put up a few towers and just pick and choose which

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ones they're going to lease in the, in the most profitable areas and

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leave the regions for somebody else.

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There are certain things that should just remind in public Haines and, okay.

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Interestingly enough, that's what happened in New Zealand.

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Yes.

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So they might time.

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Yep.

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Well, teleco was split into two, so there was retail and then there was

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infrastructure and infrastructure has remained a, I don't know if

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it's government owned, but certainly all they do is effectively what

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NBN co is supposed to be doing.

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Yeah.

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I'm pretty sure it's government owned.

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They retained ownership of it.

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Yeah.

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and the other, yeah.

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Even with NBN co the fact that we said it had to turn a profit,

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has just made it unfeasible.

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Yeah.

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The other part in one of these articles I skipped over as well was just, in

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this Keating thing where they'd started introducing consultants as well.

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And so the amount of money that is now spent on consultants rather than employing

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people directly is just criminal.

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So I had another friend who was involved in it in the police service and, you

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know, they just had lost all of their capacity in house to do it and had to pay

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outrageous sums for the outsiders because they'd completely lost all expertise.

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The banks are insourcing.

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Now they've discovered that outsourcing is, Hey, a false economy.

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There we go.

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Yeah, there we go.

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Well, D listener, I'm going to, we're up to an hour and a half.

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That's plenty of time.

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I hope you enjoyed that explanation of electricity markets in

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Europe, in Australia and the.

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Craziness of privatizing these public assets and we just let it happen,

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to our eternal shame and future generations will rightly criticize us.

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Hopefully we can get something right in the meantime so that

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they will forgive us a little bit.

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So there we go, or ideal listener, I've enjoyed it in the chat

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room you've been going well.

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Thanks for that.

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Talk to you.

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next week will be part B of the discussion with Paul wiper, which was about cultural

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Marxism, which then the following week I can follow up with a bit of

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postmodernism any earlier terminology.

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Correct.

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So there we go.

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All right, guys, thanks for tuning in.

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Talk to you next time.

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See you in Sydney Friday week.

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If you are going to join in your patron bye for now.

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The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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