full

Episode 352 - Howard and Joyce are Shameless

In this episode we discuss:

  • Crikey Defamation Threat
  • Morrison Ministries Follow Up
  • Porter – Cash
  • John Howard
  • Barnaby Joyce
  • Will anything save the Governor General?
  • Meanwhile Everyone Loves Albo
  • Solar briefly overtakes coal in Australia as number one source of power nationally
  • Want to watch the National Energy Market?
  • Nuclear Update – It’s not reliable
  • Anglican Schism
  • Japanese Day Care Nappies
  • Property Investors

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Transcript
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We need to talk about ideas, good ones and bad ones.

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We need to learn stuff about the world.

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We need an honest, intelligent thought provoking and in obtaining review of

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what the hell happened on this planet in the last seven days, we need to sit

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back and listen to the iron fist and the

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velvet glove.

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Yes, dear listener.

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This is a podcast iron fist velvet glove episode 3 52.

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I'm Trevor over there on the screen beside me is Paul from Canberra.

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How are you going Paul

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greetings from N of all

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country.

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Yes.

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Thank you.

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And Paul has joined at the last minute because Joe is

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our last minute cancellation.

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He's got a client who needed stuff done.

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And so he's working and I thought.

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Well, he wouldn't be busy tonight

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and could provide what place, you know, and

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could provide great input for us.

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So thanks Paul, for, for joining.

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So be gentle with Paul dear listener, because he hasn't

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had a chance to read the notes.

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And I sent him only three hours ago, probably about 35 pages of notes.

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So

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I did, did skim them

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so you got a rough idea of where we're rough idea of where we're heading.

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So, so I'm not even sure where we're heading half the time, this

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podcast, we get sent down little rabbit holes and things like that.

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So if you're in the chat room, say hello, and hello to Ross, who's already in the

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chat room and make plenty of comments.

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We'll try and get to him.

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I think it'll be a little bit better in recent times about reading the chat

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and trying to get you guys involved.

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So, I'll try and do it and I can, it's not always easy, but yeah.

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So what are we gonna talk about tonight?

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Well, at the end, I'm really hoping that we'll get to talking about this,

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this phenomena of cultural Marxism.

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So I've heard it, Bandi about a lot in different discussions and Hey, this

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is a podcast where we study society.

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And if we don't really have a grip on what cultural Marxism is, probably

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can't really call ourselves amateur students of society, really Paul.

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So I figured it's time to look at it and try and nut out just the basics

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of what it is, where it came from and what we should think when we hear it.

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So are you a chance, some sort of expert on cultural Marxism that will be hopeful

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Wouldn't that be nice?

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No, but I feel like it's gonna be a really interesting, like, I, I

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did sort of catch that discussion.

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Like in the email very quickly.

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And I, one thing I suppose I extracted from that was that Marxism

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actually encompasses a lot of things and a lot of parts, and it's been

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sort of really criticized for the bits that capitalism really hates.

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And there's a lot more to it than just, you know, tearing down the

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factories or kind that sort of stuff.

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Yeah.

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I think it's being used by figures on the right as just a general slander of

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a leftish idea that they don't like, and people are conditioned in our society

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to be very fearful of anything to do with marks, because that means Stalin.

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And that means Google a and so of course it must be

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bad.

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Yeah.

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I had a guy I'd proposed at one of the events for the Woodcraft Guild down

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a part of that, you know, because we occasionally sell stuff and it's nice

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for the Guild to have stuff to sell.

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And why don't we have like a day where we work together and make things

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individually that, that we can then give to the Guild to sell mm-hmm the

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guy in the charge of the sales seek says, oh, that sounds like communism.

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do you want us to raise money for the Guild or not?

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Man.

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And did you say, yeah.

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Alright, well, we'll get onto that at some point.

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Yeah.

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So anyway before in the chat room, Ross says, yes, Jordan Peterson's

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favorite reference for reasons and what Lee the wizard says,

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bye Trevor, enjoy the podcast.

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What's going on?

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What Lee you're sort of you're in and you're out.

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Aren't you saying.

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I don't understand that comment.

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Yeah.

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Just Harray another Paul, so, yeah.

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And it seems, I hope you're staying what way?

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Staying with us ly stay with us.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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But before we get to that, because, you know, we wanna fill up a good

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two hours here, so let's do a little bit of a preamble on a few things

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that are happening in Australia, a bit of current affair type stuff.

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So rattle through a few things.

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First of all, happy birthday, Shay.

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If you're out there listening Shay's birthday.

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Yeah.

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Happy birthday.

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Secondly, as you know, dear listener, I'm a big fan of the John UE blog hall.

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Do you read the John UE blog?

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No,

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not as often as I would like you're relying

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on me to curator it for you.

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Are you?

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I do.

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occasionally I check in, but I've got so many other, like, you know,

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everything from independent Australia and crikey and guardian, you know?

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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That's fine.

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You can remind, I'm glad that's keeping up, keeping me up to date.

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Yeah.

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So I think it's great block now.

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There's I just stumbled across an interview on, on YouTube where

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friendly Jordy interviewed him.

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And I think it's an old interview from a couple years ago, but

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anyway, I hadn't seen it before and it was very interesting.

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And he spoke about his time when he was basically Goff's right hand man sort of

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head of the prime ministers department.

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He sort of worked with Goff when he was in opposition and then

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worked when he was in government.

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And then he was also a an editor and higher editor of the

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Australian or an extremely high up in a number of Murdoch papers.

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And he also had an overseas posting.

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I think it was Japan might have been China, but as an ambassador,

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like his experience is amazing.

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And so he just had interesting things to say.

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So if you're interested in those topics and what Rubik Murdoch was

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like, and the control that he, that he had over his staff and how people.

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Eventually figured out they didn't have to be told they just knew what

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Rupert wanted and they just did it the way Rupert would want it.

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So Google that on YouTube, John men and friendly Jordy's, there'll be a link in

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the show notes, highly recommended that.

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And the other thing that I read a lot is crikey.

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And if you are a reader of it as well, Paul, you would know that

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they are being threatened with defamation by Lockland Murdoch.

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Mm

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yes.

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Yes.

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I really wanted to point bring that to everyone's attention because I think

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it really shows firstly like you as a lawyer or an next lawyer, Trevor would

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have some feeling for how legal arguments that are advanced and people put forward,

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you know, legal letters saying we will, you know, we will serve if these

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conditions aren't met kind of thing.

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Mm-hmm and you read the lawyers' letters from Murdoch and they're almost,

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it's hard to believe that they exist in the same reality as the rest of us.

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Right.

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They're just setting things up for potential actions.

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So no doubt the relevant law requires you to go through a process and

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to state what you want and state in quite specific detail, your

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allegation and the remedy you want.

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And then if they don't do it, you're off to court.

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So they just sort of, if it sounded that way, it's probably because it's

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being framed to match a legislative requirement in terms of detail.

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But.

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Any event it's to do with the, what was your

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sense of it then?

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Well, I didn't read those in detail.

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I just skim them because crikey has basically published the legal

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letters that have been toing and F throwing between their lawyers and,

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and Lockland Murdoch lawyers and it's to do with the capital ride January

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6th and crikey wrote something which more or less said something along

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the lines that the Murdochs were like co-conspirators with Donald Trump

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and it Murdoch is his unnamed co-conspirator I think was

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the last line in the article.

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Yes.

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And, and somehow Mer Lockland Murdoch assumed that that was him

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as part of the Murdoch.

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Family's saying he's defined and it's all gotta be read in context cetera.

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But the main thing I think I read from Ronnie's salt in Twitter made the

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point that if this goes to court, then crikey would be able to say, show us

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all documents and all communication you have relating to the January 6th Rio in

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particular, what communication you had with Donald Trump as part of discovery.

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And there's no way the Murdoch family is going to want to

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produce any of that communication.

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So she was suggesting that there's crikey is kind of aware that there's

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no way Lockland Murdoch will pursue this because there's no way he would

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risk being forced under discovery, you know, legal case of having to

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produce all of those documents, cuz it could obviously be quite embarrassing

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depending what various members of the Fox and Murdoch empire said.

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So I think she might be right.

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I think.

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I think he'd probably shy away from it because he wouldn't, you know, we've seen

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a few cases, Paul, where people have sued for defamation and it's backfired on them,

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hopefully Christian Porter and Robert Smith and a few others where they kicked

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things off and probably wish they didn't

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well also that cause I, I happen to be listening to a really fantastic big

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ideas podcast an interview with Anita, if I remember rightly an Aboriginal

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author and she was one of the people that took Andrew bolt to court and

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won mm-hmm over his defamation.

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And the, the, so the thing that sort of like, I get this real sort of resonance

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there in that both bolt and I feel in Locklin Murdoch's lawyers letter

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make these incredibly like incredibly exaggerated claims and basically kind

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of know that you there it's on the other side to then prove them wrong by

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being reasonable mm-hmm and it really can't remember who said it, but it's

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like, it's just the bullshit factor of, you know, it's, it's an order of

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magnitude, harder to disprove bullshit than it is to say it mm-hmm and so.

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Yeah,

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when it, there is a bit of haggling in this, it's okay.

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We're gonna be, we're threatening you.

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So we'll, we will reach for every possible thing we can find and

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exaggerate it and put it out there and then wait for your response.

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So, you know, that is, yeah.

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Part of, part of the thing is, well, you may as well reach for the stars and

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then , and then settle for something less.

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So it looks like you're

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settling well.

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Yeah.

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And, but vice versa, I think, you know, like if I, I think you're probably

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right, that it is going to be very difficult for it's gonna be very

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difficult for Murdoch to prove that his specific, those specific claims that

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his lawyer made all 10 of them were

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true, but you know what, there's no penalty for having

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three of them struck out.

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So for example, if you think that if,

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as long as they get like it's a shotgun kind of

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approach, correct?

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There's no, there's no.

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Okay.

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No penalty for listing 10 things of which three of them are a little bit dubious.

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It's like, I might as well throw 'em in.

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If I get struck down the other seven, still stand, it's not like you you

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lose anything by having those three.

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So you might as well throw it in there.

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That's the stage that they're at.

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So that's quite normal, I think.

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Yeah.

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I have to admit, I feel like it's even, it it's even hard for them to prove one

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of those conclusively in that, you know, because there was that recent law case

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finally west Australian court decided in the defamation suit between premier

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of wa oh, yes.

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Is goon and.

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Yeah, mark MC and CLS Palmer parer

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and where he awarded mark MCOW $20,000 in Clive power of Palmer $5,000.

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And basically said that their, yes, technically what they, what both of them

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said could be deemed defamatory, but the award was minimal because basically Clive

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Palmer had already trashed his reputation.

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Right.

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And mark McGowan's, hadn't actually suffered mm-hmm as a result because

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he won an increased majority.

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So, very hard to see either of those people making the claim that

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they couldn't show a lot of damage cuz they're already yeah, yeah.

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That

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like it, it's hard to believe that Locklin Murdoch has been so trashed in

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reputation by the article on crikey, by that one sentence, as opposed to

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any of the other coverage that he's done, that, that, that he's suffered.

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And he still seems to be perfectly happy in, you know, the top job is not

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being hounded out of that or anything is not hasn't lost anything by it.

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It will be very hard to show that in fact, Locklin Murdoch has suffered

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any material loss by that coverage.

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And that seems to me to be the, the point, not that the things that they said were,

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In theory not nice to their reputation, but the practical

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effect was water off Duck's back.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I agree.

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Yeah.

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I have to say actually do anything

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and therefore it didn't, it wasn't actually defamatory probably.

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And

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if you, well, it was defamatory, but it was worth, it was just so negligible.

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So, look, it might be one of those cases where we have to say, maybe America's

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actually got better laws because they tend to have laws where I think if you

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are a public identity, then it's almost anything's possible for public identities.

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So public figures, I think that's a sort of a difference in the us law, but

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certainly ours is due for a bit of an overhaul because rich and powerful people

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are using it as a means of, of controlling media that might be against them.

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So, yeah, I think it's, yeah, something we can look at the, the

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landscape of media and personality and defamation in the, and damages in

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the us is I feel like it's a, it's a very different, it's almost an alien

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landscape compared to what we sort of see

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there, but they don't have nearly the sort of defamation cases we have.

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This doesn't happen.

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No, but there are and I haven't done any legal reading up on legal cases,

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but there are still plenty of like the, the free speech argument gets used in

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a very one sided direction in the us from the powerful to the less powerful.

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Yeah.

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But I think in defamation law, it might be a case where it's the

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free speech aspect is working to.

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Downplay the ability of the rich to silence the poor.

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So I think it might be a case where it's actually working to

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some extent, so better than now.

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It's one of the rare occasions

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we've certainly had as, as you know, we've seen with you know, Dutton winning

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the lawsuit against the guy, I think Queensland who defamed him on Twitter and,

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you know, a bunch of things like that, you know, people just suing for defamation in

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Australia because it means that I'm going to drag you through the court and shake

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you out for lo you know, for lawyers fees.

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Mm.

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So

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fortunately we haven't had a defamation action on this podcast

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so far our fingers crossed well, I'll try to keep it that way.

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Good.

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All right.

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So, just following up from the Morrison fiasco with his ministries, and I

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think since we last talked, he, yeah, he had his press conference and, you

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know, the overwhelming thought I had at the end of that was, thank God.

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We don't have to listen to this guy anymore.

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It's it's so good.

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Not to have to listen to him the way we used to have to.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But a few characters came out and provided comments and one of them was John Howard.

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So I'm gonna play a John Howard clip for everybody.

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Now see how we go.

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I break my off.

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Yeah.

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I think most people and allow me an expression of this opinion.

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Most people are going to say, well, that deepest thing, but let's get

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on with the present and the future.

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I think there's a number of people in your own party who are calling on Scott

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Morrison to resign from parliament.

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Should you at least do that?

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No, I don't think you should do that apart from anything else.

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It's not in the interest of the liberal party to have a byelection at the moment

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in a very safe seat, particularly.

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As in the state of new south Wales, we will face a state election

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in the early part of next year.

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So if anybody cares about my party, the liberal party, then the last thing I'll

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do is be requesting unwanted by elections.

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That sounds like an Anan answer based in expediency.

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When this is a matter of principle, you say it's a matter of principle.

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And so you don't think it is no, I don't think it's something that is so

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wreaking with principle as to

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require an unwanted expensive unnecessary byelection.

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So he's first and best reason why Morrison shouldn't resign was because it wouldn't

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be in the interest of the liberal party.

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What happened to the interest of Australia, Paul?

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Well, no, no.

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What's puzzling me here is if it's a safe, liberal seat, why is it a bad

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thing to have a byelection when you could just get another liberal candidate?

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If it's

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safe, I guess it's saying it's not,

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that's true.

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And it's not safe.

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Good point.

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He knows it's not safe.

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There's no way that with, with this on top of everything that Morrison,

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like, all it's gonna take is a teal candidate to get up in, in cook and

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votes will flood in, I would say.

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Mm.

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Yeah.

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So, but I just it's the shamelessness that you could say, well, of course

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he shouldn't resign that wouldn't be in the interest of the liberal party.

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It just, it just boggles my mind, the shamelessness of these things.

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So yeah.

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I'm just gonna grab another one here when we are talking about shamelessness

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and this one's Barnaby Joyce, and, and again, see if bucket, see if you can see a

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theme happening here in the reasons here.

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I initially assumed and to be

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quite Frank, if I gone into bat,

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I had negotiated an extra minister and I thought, well,

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I've asked myself three questions.

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Is it legal?

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Yeah.

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It is legal under section 64.

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He can do that.

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Is there anything I can do to change back?

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No.

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Has he got the capacity to renegotiate my extra minister that I just dealt that I

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just dealt into the national party hand?

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Yeah.

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You could just say, yeah, I'll fix

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your problem, mate.

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I'll just take the ministry back off you.

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It's gone now.

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Problem fixed for you.

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Problem fixed for me bad

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outcome for the national party.

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So he starts off well, it's legal.

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And then as to whether he should do anything about it.

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Well, no, because it's not in the interest of the national party.

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Don't worry about the interest of Australia, the parliament.

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Yeah.

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Just good form again, I'm just flabbergasted by the

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shamelessness of these guys.

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Continue.

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I dunno.

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I shouldn't be, I shouldn't be so surprised.

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Yeah.

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I'm not surprised.

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They think that way.

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I'm just surprised that they can say it.

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So open, openly.

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I wonder here, if, what their, that if, if they have got used to the, you know,

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the right wing media, cheer squad and the you know, the sort of left bashing

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and all that sort of stuff, they're so used to that, that they, they can now say

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the inside thoughts, you know, that they used to have to find a nice way to wrap.

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They, you know, they just don't actually feel like, being

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accountable because, you know,

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He's listening anyway.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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I don't matter.

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Accountable.

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All I have to do is get some, you know, have some beat up about, you

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know, boats arriving in, you know, Australia on the day of the election

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and the people will flock to us.

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Mm yeah.

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You, yeah.

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And, and I would say the hard, the hard lesson they're unfortunately

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not learning is that they, they are now really struggling.

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Like there are so many people, I it's just the whole thing.

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This whole topic has been a continued amusement over several

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days at work from people I would've expected to be liberal voters.

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Yep.

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But they're pissed off.

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Yep.

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Because they can see that if you've got a minister, who's actually, you know,

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especially in the case of something like home affairs whose powers to deport and

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allow and authorize and not authorize and keep secret a vast, you know, they,

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they know very well how, how much, you know, of the, the rest of the workings

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of that government department rely on knowing what the minister wants to do

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and, you know, taking action on it.

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And if you then got, oh, wait, someone else is minister, you know?

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Yeah.

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They they've been, they've been wild about it.

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Yeah.

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And I think also, you know, the Murdoch and Castello press has

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not been supportive of Morrison.

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They've pretty much Being negative about it, you know, they're throwing in

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bits like common, Albanese stop talking about it and get on with the job.

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But to a large extent, they're, they're also negative about it because

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Morrison can't give them any favors.

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They're not needing the, the scoop to be handed to them.

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He can't offer them anything anymore, so they don't need to yeah.

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Be nice to him anymore.

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Do him any favors?

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So I think he's quite friendless now as he should be.

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you know?

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Yeah, yeah.

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In terms of the press, in terms of his own party, possibly his own family who knows,

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but he's quite friendless as he should be.

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It seems so.

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Yeah, but I, I was disappointed as well.

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On Monday I found out that Scott Morrison had been sworn in to do my job.

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Right.

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that, that like the worst part about it was that he didn't actually do anything.

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He just like, you know, spa himself in.

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And, but like, he didn't actually contradict any of the things that

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I was, you know, that the decisions I made or the code that I wrote.

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So, you know, like he must have approved about that.

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Yeah.

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yeah.

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It's, it's a crazy situation.

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So, so we'll see how that pans out.

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It's we'll see how that pans out, but meanwhile, elbow is he's going.

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Okay.

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I think.

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And did you see the scene with him at the Enmore theater in Sydney?

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No.

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Oh, Hmm.

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Well, you're about to see it.

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So he's in the theater people spotting there and, and this is almost a bit of a

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Bob Hawk type of moment happening here.

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He basically skulls a beer for the crowd type of thing.

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Right.

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Because the crowd was hanging him on and then they giving him a big cheer.

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Like it was a pretty big positive response.

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Yeah.

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Big Hawk vibe there.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's a theater, it's a lefty crowd for sure.

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But and of course, you know, had Morrison in his heyday showed up there.

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There was no way he would get that sort of sport, but it was still quite

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an impressive just show of genuine support from a theater crowd, I think.

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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I don't know if I think that theater goers are all sort of lefties otherwise,

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other than just, you know, if they're not,

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they should be

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like, we all think they all should be well, well,

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given, given the way that the coalition abandoned the arts sure, sure.

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For nine years completely abandoned them.

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And, and that's not like just a new policy, the arts funding for all

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of, you know, from the coalition has always been dropped, has, you

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know, is been considered unnecessary.

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So, and you know why.

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Yeah.

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I see it as, I don't have any, like, I don't know, but I guess I see it

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as the arts also criticizes and.

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The one thing I think that characterizes conservative conservatives is that they

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do not like to be criticized mm-hmm

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my theory is it's like universities, they don't think

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there's any votes for them there.

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So why waste money on that sector?

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Keep it for the people you'll vote for you.

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I think that's yeah.

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Yeah.

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I also agree with that.

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Mm-hmm

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so, yeah,

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I, I, I also, I suppose I also think that there, you know, there's an element

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of a sort of culture wars in there are, you know, the, those elites, you know,

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going to their opera and their, their dance performances and, you know, yes.

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Like we should be concerned about the ordinary Australians who have

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a beer and, you know, consider watching Katherine Kim to be the

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height of entertainment, you know?

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Yes.

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This is the problem.

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They almost thought of the ordinary Australian as, as a trady, as a blue

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collar, it was never a, a nurse or a school teacher or a a sound person

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at a stage in the Enmore theater or a, an actor or somebody like that.

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I never considered working Australians.

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So they very different view of that.

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Mm.

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The other little thing that I, the vibe that I kind of pick up out of that is

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that it really reminds me of I think one of the things thatI said when he opened

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parliament was, which was that, you know, he want, he wants to have a parliament

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that the Australian people respect.

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And when.

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We see the Australian parliament being respectable, getting stuff, done,

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solving these problems, working together.

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We can go.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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I can respect that guy.

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He's he's he's doing the right

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thing.

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It's a symbiotic relationship between the people on the parliament.

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Yeah.

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So, mm mm.

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Yeah.

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Now contrast this, so everybody's, well, you hadn't seen it, but the general

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response to that is well good on your for being at the theater and having a beer and

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enjoying yourself and contrast that Paul, did you see the funeral over the finish

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prime minister, a female prime minister,

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all reports of it, but I didn't pick up what she'd actually done wrong.

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Well, had she a drug test

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or something like that?

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She had the toity to dance in front of a camera with some friends

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at a private party and was just gyrating around as people do to

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the camera and having a good time.

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And, and this just shocked too many people that a prime minister could be.

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She's quite youthful and it shocked

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too many fins fin fi I, I, I think did it from, well, I think from talking to a

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finished friend of mine and following the general line of finished jokes the thing

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that they might have been most outraged about was that they're actually more than

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one person in the same room there, right?

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Fins are not communicative and they're not like the trophies

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that they, they are grumpy.

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Herberts you, you, you are, you are 30 meters away and that's close enough.

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Thank you very much.

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but it's the happiest country in the world, Paul.

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It is, it is

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every time that survey came out just a week or two ago, again, they're

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always at the top by other happiest.

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And I don't think there's a lot of general, like, I think it's a, you

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know, it's playing up a stereotype yeah.

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In the way that all Australians drink too much beer kind of thing.

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But yeah.

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It's

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anyway, I think there was, there was a bit of a thing where they said they

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could vaguely hear in the background, a reference to flower, and there was

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an allegation that flower was code for some sort of powdery illegal drug.

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And she then went and had a drug test to prove that she

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had not taken an illegal drug.

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Just to say to people here you go done a blood test, but that's what it reached.

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That's the stage.

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It got to that.

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So just a contrasting situation where just relatively young woman, just having

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a good time as you're allowed to, you're not expected to work all the time as a PM.

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And

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in a different response prime minister, like the finished people are very

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progressive and they have neglected a young, progressive prime minister.

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So

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yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So, so anyway, dance on, I say, yeah.

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So contrast that I can remember AOC was criticized for a, a a video.

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She did dancing on a rooftop at some point, and she just got these

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hard line conservatives going.

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She's just not a serious person cuz she's dancing.

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And but so

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how much of that do you think is just the regular outrage machine?

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You know of?

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It's just like it it's the attack that I see on.

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Anyone that they don't like, just find anything that we can even

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make up that will be objection about objectionable, about them.

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They're they're not serious.

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They're too serious.

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They're they're not well educated.

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They're too well educated, anything just as long as we can criticize

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it and, and, you know, cross our arms and look all upright.

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Yeah.

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And

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you can't, please, some people, people have a stick up their bum,

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but you know, there's definitely some people you just can't please.

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Anyway, I thought it was an interesting contrast between interesting contrast.

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Yeah.

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Australian PM and the finished PM.

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So it can swap notes when they're at some sort of conference in the future.

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Mm-hmm

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mm-hmm maybe we could get her and Jain Arden, and there

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may to have like a dance off.

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Yeah.

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There may.

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So

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she didn't, she do that stage.

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So like she was walking under the stage and yeah.

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A little, they had some sort of number and she was dancing around a bit.

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It's like, yeah.

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So, anyway.

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Yep.

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Okay.

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Now next topic moving away from politicians is so governor generals I

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was gonna skip the governor general.

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We'll go back to the governor general.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Look, it's tricky.

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One, the governor general, I haven't quite got my head around.

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It sort of gave my view the other day.

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It seems like with the early appointments, the governor general wasn't involved

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at all, and it seemed that with when Christian Porter was there, that they

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did it as an administrative thing without even the governor general and the later

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appointments involve the governor general.

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And he's saying, well, it's not his job to monitor the Gazette and make

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sure things are printed and he's just there to do what he's told.

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So.

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He obviously knew though that it was being kept secret because any governor general

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just should be watching the general news and should have been aware of that.

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This was not being talked about.

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I mean, it just it doesn't really fly with me that the governor general

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had hadn't even thought about it not being publicized, so, Hmm.

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You've got any thoughts.

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It is also very hard because like the governor general doesn't write his diary.

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This is the job for secretaries and you know, people and yes, it

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becomes part of the, the record.

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The fact that it didn't make it onto the record really makes me feel that there's

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actually some like, so a, you know, just to pick an arbitrary example, Scott

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Morrison has deliberately gone to them saying, you cannot tell anyone about this.

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You can't publish it on the Gazette, keep it quiet.

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Looks like, yeah, given that all sorts of things, like, you know, he hands out first

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prize to a dog at a dog show or something.

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And that appears in the Gazette.

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Like there's a lot of detailed stuff in there.

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That's quite in a, and the fact that a major thing like appointing

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a minister doesn't make it.

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It all seems like something intentional has happened, but we won't know

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until further things come out, which they probably will at some stage.

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It also makes me, I think it, it makes a good argument then to say, well, if

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the governor General's sole function.

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Is just to go out and have, you know, give medals to dogs and, you know, have open

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public buildings and things like that.

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It is not actually to question the mess, the mechanisms and the

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processes of government when they happen, then we don't actually need

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a governor general with that power.

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You know, we could just elect the, you know, the building opener in chief

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and, you know, that's their function.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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You know, I think I heard an argument that governments have been

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keen to a point X military people.

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And one of the reasons is that military people are, yes, men essentially.

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Like they just do what they're told.

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That's a culture that when somebody advance this argument is superior

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to you in rank or whatever, you just do what you're told and that's it.

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Whereas if you were appointing, you know, X, high court judges or

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people like that, they would be more likely to say, hang on a minute.

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What's going on here?

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What?

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Yeah.

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so, it's a, it's a good argument as to why the military should not

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be involved in these appointments.

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I, I'm not a good cultural fit mixed

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on that in that I actually don't.

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I don't see.

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I don't actually, I feel any, if anyone's selecting the.

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Governor general because we better choose one that make, you know, that takes

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orders so that when we have to appoint myself as a secret minister, it for

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everything they'll do what they say is a pretty long draw to bow a bow to draw.

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No, it's not because it would be let's point a yes man.

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In case we need a yes man, for someone unforeseen event where we're like,

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they may not have had specifically in mind this thing, but it would

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be, are you gonna be compliant?

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Are you gonna go and do the things I say?

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And are you gonna shut up if I tell you to shut up, you know, in

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the back of maybe not overt, just

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maybe like, I wonder how much the liberal party feels, the fear of

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the governor general in the same way that the labor party remembers occur.

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I think they all remember it and they all think, I don't want

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one of those, a contrarian Gigi.

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Yeah, but I, my hypothesis here is that the liberal party were well

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served by a governor general that, that I don't know who chose Kerr.

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But they were well suited by a governor general who was part of the establishment.

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And I, I wonder if the liberal party feels the same fear that a rogue

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governor general could, you know, dissolve parliament If, you know, a

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couple of liberal party mates went over and have a, had a beer with

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him in the Saturday afternoon, they,

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they would have that fear if they appointed one from academia.

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So that's why they appoint one from the military, you know, so, and you

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know, if there was a leftover labor appointee as governor general, who

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was of that ilk, then they would be worried if they took power.

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So I think both sides of politics would, would look at the governor general

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and think what sort of we got here.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Anyway, in the chat room jungle juice, jingle jungle says being

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ex-military I can attest your statement being somewhat correct.

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That's good to know.

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Jungle juice.

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Yeah.

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Jungle juice jungle.

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Give me some more of that jungle juice.

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Yeah.

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And just previously in the chat room, some of the people had mentioned about

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friendly Jordy's and just questioning whether they like the guy or not.

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I mean, he is, he is not to everyone's taste, I get it, but he's at least

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appealing to a younger demographic and, you know, it's, you've gotta

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have all different types appealing to all different demographics.

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And I think he does what he's doing quite well, even though I

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wouldn't necessarily sit down and watch him all the time myself.

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So

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yeah, I, I have found, I, I like the points that he's trying to

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make most of the time, but I've I'm, I can't really get, you know,

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I can't agree on his delivery.

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But I do really like there's YouTube channel called swollen pickles and

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another one called Knight in shining Lama.

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And both of those are very good.

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Pickles is more kind of making funny.

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Funny videos of mashups of I think he did a mashup of

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ex premiere of new south Wales.

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GLADiS Barlin Gladys saying all the times that she said

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we're not going into lockdown.

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Oh, we're going into lockdown.

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Oh, we're not going into lockdown.

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There's no such thing as a lockdown in new south Wales.

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Yeah.

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I've seen that lockdown.

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Yeah.

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So yeah, I think you've just gotta have all different types.

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So it's a bit like in the secular community, I think we've got various

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different types running around, so yeah, just, you don't need all to be the same.

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Now I just wanna move on to energy pool.

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And so this is from ABC for about half an hour on Friday now.

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I'm not sure if that was last Friday or the Friday before the national

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energy market caught a glimpse of what a renewables powered future might look

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like and solar energy eclipsed, coal as the lead source of power across

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the energy market, which includes all states except wa and territory.

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It's not the first time it happened, but it's the first time it's happened

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under relatively normal conditions.

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So there was no shortage of coal-fired power and it wasn't

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the sont time of the year.

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So it was a significant sort of business as usual kind of

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day and solar de throne coal.

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So that was good.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Like a lot of things, it, you know, these, you know, gradual, these gradual

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incremental changes, help people get used to the idea that actually, you know,

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Solar thing isn't that bad after all.

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So when your electric bike is finished yeah.

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Is it gonna be powered from a solar rooftop system you have?

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Is that what?

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So I

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do have solar panels on the roof.

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Mm-hmm

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do they get sunny in Canberra?

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Sufficient.

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Occasionally, not this, not this winter.

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I can tell you.

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Right.

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But so this is where I don't want to have people hate me too much, but so

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Canberra in 2007, introduce in order to sort of bootstrap, the solar industry

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here introduced a gross feed in tariff.

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And so, I, and we were lucky enough for a variety of complicated reasons,

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cuz I was out of work for six months.

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We were lucky enough to be able to afford to afford and to fit into the program.

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And we get 52 50.

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Yeah.

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52 cents a kilowatt.

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Yep.

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Kilowatt hour for every kilowatt hour we generate.

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Wow.

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Whether or not the house is using any power, any of that power or not

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whether you are using it or not.

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Yes.

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Hang on a minute.

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So you could be generating it and using it and you'll be paid.

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Yes.

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What that I, I

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told you you'd hate me.

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you're kidding.

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How long's that

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gonna go for 25 years.

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Wow.

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That's amazing.

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And believe me, it's it bootstrapped the the, the solar industry in camber.

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Wow.

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There's, there's a friend of mine very famous or famous in the open source world.

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guy called Andrew Riall.

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He, he happened to have a house which was alar very, a very

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large area of north facing roof.

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And he worked out that he could install 30 kilowatts of solar panels on his house.

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He drew down for his superannuation because being the guy, he is he'd

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done the math worked out that it would pay a better rate of return

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than his superannuation was.

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Yep.

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So that is part of his superannuation.

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And if you know where to look in Canberra, you can see the bright splash

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on the satellite picture, where his house has reflected the sun back to

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the satellite and is completely wipes out that section of the, the street,

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my, my mate Noel, he was the same.

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He figured it out and loaded up his house in Brisbane and very, very early

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adopter, one of the very earliest.

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And he was driving in his car and he got a phone call from from the electricity

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company that he was dealing with.

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And they said look just calling to talk to you about your bill.

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You owe us 5,000, $200 and just wanna know what arrangements

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you're gonna make to pay it.

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And he said, right, are you looking at the screen right now?

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And the guy said, yeah.

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And he said, you see where it's got 5,000, $200.

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Is there a kind of like a minus sign in front of the dollar sign?

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And the guy goes, yeah, yeah, there is, that's weird.

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And I'll said, yeah, that's because you own me.

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$5,600.

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and I'd like to know what arrangements you are gonna make to pay me.

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They'd never written a check before they had no, like this

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was foreign territory for him

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probably didn't even have the mechanism to do it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So he had figured out he could buy old cottages in rural areas

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in Northern new south Wales and he wouldn't have to rent them out.

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He could just wax solar on them and that would pay for these

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properties and pay them off.

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And he was actually getting contracts organized when the

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new south Wales scheme changed.

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And so he didn't proceed with it, but he had done that same

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math and had figured out.

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Yeah.

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So there we go.

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That's that's my two solar stories.

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So yeah.

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So, okay, so you are gonna be feeding electricity into your electric motorbike

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and you're actually gonna be paid for the electricity that goes into it

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for the, for the, for the privilege.

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Wow.

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I mean, you know, the disadvantage is that we still, we still pay, you know,

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I think what, what's our top, right?

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20 something, 21, 20 2 cents a kilowatt at peak times.

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Right.

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So, when I had the, the mark one I would have it, have that on a timer.

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So it would charge up on the sort of off peak cycle.

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Not that we actually, yeah, not that it was actually like, paid like that.

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But just sort of just shift the power.

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Mm.

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But yeah, the, the, the solar thing I also think is a, also a statement of.

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A lot.

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It shows that a lot of the bigger solar projects are now starting to come,

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come in and get traction where before, especially with the previous government,

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it was previous federal government.

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It was very difficult for those companies to get sort of basically to be allowed

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to generate mm-hmm because the, you know, if, if a new project came in,

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they would be curtailed in favor of the existing generator, which was always cold.

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So, and you know, that's just like, that's the opposite of what

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should, what we should be doing.

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We should be turning off coaled power stations and keeping

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solar power, but, you know,

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actually I've got one other electricity, sand of power killing birds, Chris, I've

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got one other what you're talking about.

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Yeah.

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I've got one of the electricity anecdote for you.

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So my son worked for a company that was involved in supplying electricity

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into the market, and they had entered into some forward contracts to supply

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at a certain price over the next year, two years and three years.

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Uh mm-hmm , which would satisfy their finances, that their finances

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knew they had this money coming in.

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So, so it wasn't their entire production that they were committing,

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but just to sort of hedge, I guess.

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And so they had put it in at a certain price.

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Now I can't remember the exact figures, but let's just assume it was say

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$80 a what or whatever it's called.

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Yeah.

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And so that was their commitment to supply that to the energy

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market over the next three years.

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Now, when the price goes up for electricity There's two things.

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First of all, you think to yourself, damn wish I hadn't agreed to sell it at 80

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because now I could sell it at 200, if I wasn't committed to this cheap price.

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Mm.

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But the other thing is say the price has moved to 200.

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Then the, the national energy market regulator says, you know what?

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There's a risk that you might go bust.

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And we've got this great deal with you where you are

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committed to supplying it at 80.

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Whereas a moment we have to buy it at 200 from everyone else.

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So you have to pay us a bond of 120 so that we know that we are not going to

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miss out on a deal with you going bust.

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And that's part of the deal that's done when people hedge with the national

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electricity market, that if you agree at a price and the price increases, they say to

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you cough up some money, because in case you go bust and we have to buy it from

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somebody else, we're not gonna be happy.

Speaker:

Oh,

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I think I heard something about that.

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Yeah.

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And so it's this extraordinary situation where the price is going up

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and these people have to scramble and find money to give to the national

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energy market to cover the difference.

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They'll eventually get it back.

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But but yeah, they have to come up with this, in this, in

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the, as a cash flow problem.

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And it also makes me think of all of there are so many companies, I mean,

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not only the aluminum melters and but you know, big shopping centers

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and even the state of the, a C T has done a power purchasing agreement.

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So they basically say, okay, You know, external company, we agree to par purchase

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power at say, say $80 a megawatt hour.

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Mm.

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And when, if the, if the pay price goes up, then you profit off that.

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Sorry.

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If the price goes down, then you profit because we could have bought it at

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60, but you we're, we are paying 80.

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And if the price goes up, then we win.

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And I think the I think the a C T last I heard was around $65 a mega

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hour, but basically all of the large power consumers are doing these deals

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because they want to lock in that, you know, if, if there's a generator

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that can supply them for 80 then yeah.

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Okay.

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We'll, we'll, we'll take our chance on how yeah.

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How the market looks.

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Yeah.

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And, and the irony in a way for the, a C T, which is, you know, very you

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know, very committed to going green producing greenhouse gas emissions

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and things like that is that if they had all solar, solar would be free.

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Right.

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And therefore they would be loo they would be paying money to, to use that

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free power mm-hmm . But so far it hasn't

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happened yet.

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Now there's a website called renew economy dot comu, and it had an interesting

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article about nuclear power, which I'm gonna talk about in a minute.

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But in the meantime, while I was there, it had this interesting

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Little link that you can go to.

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And at any point in time, during the day or night, you can look at the national

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energy market and see which states are using how much electricity and what

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type of electricity that they're using.

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So, so yeah, if you're into electricity markets and wondering what's going on,

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then renew economy.com AU interesting link that you can just see what's going

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on with electricity during the day.

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I thought that was an interesting one.

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And

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yeah, I just wanted to pick Chris in the chat has said,

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hypothetically, can I store power?

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And when they need it, I can then choose to sell it.

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And the answer is unfortunately for retail customers, not yet.

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Right, but there's two parts to this, firstly, I mean, that is what, say a

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hi a pumped storage hydro project does or like, you know, the the horns style,

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big battery that south Australia put in.

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They do exactly that.

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So if you're a big company, Chris, you can for us regular people

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you can't get like a, a power

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at the, in the mid part of the day and then put it back, you

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know, sorry, the late at night, put it back in the middle of the

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day or the, the it'll detect peak period.

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It'll detect that.

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That's what you're doing.

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It'll it'll well, somehow it's gotta come from the direct from the solar panel,

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not via a battery is what you're saying.

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Well, the

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problem is that you don't actually so firstly, as far as I know.

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I don't think there are any batteries out there that allow you to do that.

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And you are probably not allow allowed to jigger around with the firmware on

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the batteries to make them do that.

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Right.

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But even then, you're probably only going to get whatever you

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are feeding tariff is anyway.

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So, you know, you might buy like, you know, for most of us we're buying power at

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20 cents, you know, 21 cents a kilowatt.

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And even at off peak we might be paying 12 cents a kilowatt and our feed in

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rate is more like 7 cents a kilowatt.

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Right.

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Gotcha.

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But

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the other thing

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that's coming is, hang on.

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The feeding rate is seven, but you said you were selling it back to the, okay.

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So if you are really, really lucky and you happen to be on it.

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Oh,

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that's you, right?

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Yeah.

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okay.

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That's you

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for the rest of, for the rest of the people?

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You're pretty much, you know.

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Yeah.

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But the thing that is coming for Chris is vehicle to grid.

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So what that allows you to do, and we, we've sort of seen some of that

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coming with things like the Ford F-150 lightning and other vehicles we're

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basically, you can power an ordinary two 40 volt device off your car.

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Vehicle grid says vehicle to grid allows you to not only power

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your house using the same plug.

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So you plug it in, in the same way that you normally do to charge it.

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And then the vehicle system and the house system say, oh, I need some power now.

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So I'll supply the house instead, but they are allowing They're they're

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looking, there's a trial project at the moment, looking at how this works.

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It's run by the Australian, Australian national university.

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And it's looking at how this had actually been implemented in practice.

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Does, do you get to do power arbitrage on a day to day basis or do, is

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that, you know, is that pointless?

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What, what would the, you know, what, what should the software look like?

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What controls should we have all that sort of stuff.

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So I

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gotta do something it's a work models on how that will affect the market.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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E even just sort of to the, the point of the, because the other part of

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that process is the ability basically to, for the grid to say it's peak

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period time, and I really don't want you sucking 22 kilowatt hours

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out of the grid right now, please,

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right?

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Okay.

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There's lots of clever things are gonna be worked out and

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even the car technology will go.

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I know your diary and I know you're not driving anywhere tomorrow, so I

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know I can use the battery in a certain way with that information, or I know

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you aren't gonna need the battery full tomorrow and therefore yeah.

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There's lots of interesting things will happen that way.

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Mm-hmm you,

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do you know, Saul Griffith?

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Have you heard of the name Saul Griffith?

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I think I have heard of the name, but I don't know.

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Yeah.

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He he wrote a book called electrify everything.

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Right.

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And so he talks about all that sort of last, like the

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last 10% of all of the uses.

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But he also has, I think, three.

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Car conversion projects on the go and he's he's selling

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them to his wife as good news.

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We get a, a big battery for our house and I also get to drive it around,

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right?

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Yes.

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Yeah, no, it's gonna be a significant player.

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These, these car batteries in 20 or 30 years when there's more of 'em around.

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So now some people think nuclear is the answer to perceived electricity shortages.

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And I know in the past John listen to John is keen on it.

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And my brother was also into these sort of small modular reactors for nuclear.

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And there's an article from this renew economy website, which I stumbled across.

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And I'll read a bit about it.

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Before Peter Dutton's coalition charge off into yet another inquiry into the merits

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of nuclear power, of course, coalition is spooking nuclear power as is sky news.

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Funny how they didn't do anything about it in the nine years

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that they were in power indeed.

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And suddenly now it's yes, they really should just shut up for 12 months cuz

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that's just the standard response.

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You just can't come up with broad ideas now just, just go away for 12 months

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and read and we'll hear from you later.

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Anyway, this article says they might wanna take a class.

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Look at what's happening in Europe, where the failure of France's huge

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nuclear power plant fleet is causing bigger problems for EU power supplies.

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Then rushes, withheld gas supply France has been delivering just a fraction

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of its energy production potential in recent months and overnight the

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situation got worse when French power producer EDF announced another three

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power plants would curtail output because of rising temperatures.

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Rivers have become too hot in the latest heat wave to be used to cool the reactors.

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So the majority of France's 56 nuclear reactors are currently throttled down

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or taken offline due to a combination of scheduled maintenance, erosion damage.

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That's a worry yes, and cooling water shortages due to recurring heat waves.

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And this problem has caused wholesale electricity prices to soar and

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costing the French government a Mo because they subsidize power bills.

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So the cost of making up the difference is now gonna be 24 billion.

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Oh, Australian 40 billion this year alone.

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And so yeah, so one of the arguments for coal has been it's for a reliable and

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consistent, and we've had problem with coal fired generators, actually having

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maintenance issues and fires and whatever.

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And we could have the same with nuclear.

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It's not like you just switch these things on and they're good for the next 30 years.

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They've got issues as well.

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So this base load power that people talk about, you know, if we for start

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there, aren't small nuclear stations that are actually modular ones

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that are working they're twice the cost of a bigger nuclear situation.

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Anyway, You've still got no guarantees.

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You still have issues with them.

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So you're still going to need backups.

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And you know, we're looking at Ukraine where there's these attacks

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on the nuclear power plants.

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Who's to say that, you know, down the track, we're not

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involved in some armed conflict.

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And if you were trying to, you know, cause a problem for a

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country, it's definitely a target.

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It would make sense that with at least solar and these other renewables,

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it's a spreading of the risk.

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There's multiple generators in multiple areas.

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And just like Scott Morrison wanting multiple backups of ministries.

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This is a case though, where you are actually spreading the risk

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and you know, that is a factor that people need to take into account.

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And I dunno if you've said it before, but I think you've probably said you, like,

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you've kind of touched on that issue.

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I've certainly heard it heard it said elsewhere.

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That the problem with small modular reactors is on the one hand, if you

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are going to install them, like, you know, they're small, they're modular.

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They can go anywhere.

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Well, let's just install them in every country town.

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Oh, well now we have a thousand sites that we need to defend rather than a dozen

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and, and they're twice as expensive as normal.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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And if you then want to secure those sites, well, obviously what you do

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is you build large sites, right?

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Exactly.

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Like a coal fired power station, which concentrates all of the

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generation in one place, which means you need distribution transmission.

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So, you know, it's, it's also incredibly bad for security and I can't help, but

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notice that none of these reactors have.

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You know, we don't even have the infrastructure to generate the, like, to

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make the reactor, let alone make its fuel.

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Where are we gonna get that from?

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Oh, from overseas jolly good.

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Then like where, where, where we buy our oil from right.

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We can't use the fuel that we mine here.

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Like it's gotta be processed in a way we gotta refine it, which

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we don't the technology for.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Yeah.

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And,

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and you can absolutely bet that a you know, the com the countries that do

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do this Britain France, and the us are not going to let that kind of stuff

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walk out to places like Australia.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, I think there's a bit where this whole change in the

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electricity market is, is a threat to big players, and it allows so many

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smaller entrants and for the coalition who like to support big players,

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big multinationals, big companies.

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Yeah.

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This democratization of energy is not in the interest of the large capitalists.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it's ironic to me that by democratization there, what we're

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talking about is companies with only 20 million, rather than 2 billion

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mm-hmm , and they're still against it.

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Like, it's not, you know, they've kind of lost the battle on rooftop solar, but, you

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know, they're still essentially saying, well, you know, we want, we don't, we want

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to shut the large solar generators and the large wind farms and companies like that

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out of the electricity market as well.

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In the chat room, Chris says, Chris, you'd been chatting

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away very well there, come on.

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Someone else, some other people need to join.

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Chris.

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Chris says, when I was a medical student at uni, I visited the south Sydney

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nuclear reactor, and they said they could keep it cool with a garden hose.

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I guess the other question Chris was how many houses could they

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power from that experimental nuclear reactor that they had there?

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What what's that

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I dunno, maybe, maybe, maybe as much as a

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toaster.

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Yeah, because there is a small reactor down there in Sydney

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for sort of research purposes.

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And yeah, I guess the question maybe Chris will come in with a comment,

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but you know, just how much power was generated from that is the next question.

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Mm, briefly.

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Yeah, because Paul, we've gotta rattle through some topics to

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get to some by nine o'clock.

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So I can then get into cultural Marxism and knock that over in half an hour.

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Like let's, just quickly Anglican church in new south Wales they've split.

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And so they've got basically conservative evangelical types who just can't get

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their head around, same sex marriage and OB just object to the change

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in the the teaching of the church.

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So they've broken away and created their own little subgroup.

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And the ones in favor of same sex marriage are still part of

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the, the major Anglican church.

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But rebel group that's broken away are the sort of crazy evangelicals

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who don't like same sex marriage.

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And that will be interesting to see how the property is split

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up for the stuff that they own.

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So I was just

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wondering what they'd call themselves.

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And of course it's called the diocese of the Southern cross.

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Right.

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Because there's nothing like drawing nationalism into a church isn't there.

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Yeah.

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Good point it's it's yeah, yeah.

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Yep.

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Like it.

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The, the newer, an, the newer GLI Anglican church or the, you know, the

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brothers of west Sydney or whatever.

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No, it's the Southern cross.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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I, at some point, I know you wanna rattle through things,

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so I'll, I'll just flag this.

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And at some point, Trevor, Trevor, I'd like to talk to

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you about positive nationalism,

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positive nationalism.

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Hmm.

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Where you can be proud of your country.

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Yes.

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And not also have to be a, and

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a fascist

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a yes.

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You know, defended at all costs kind of person.

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But anyway, let's table that let's move on.

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Cause no

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positive nationalist.

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You're saying it's not possible to be, or you think it's no,

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what I'm, what I'm saying is that we, there is this stigma against people

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who are proud of the flag who sing the national Anthem and things like that as

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either being too patriotic or a bit ish.

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And what it does is leaves the actual nationalism for the people that think

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that going, you know, go heading off, down with a couple of Australian flags

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and bashing some Lebanese people at Koji

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is a good sport.

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Oh.

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So they've left a gap for people who want to be nationalist in a nice way.

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Because there isn't a, a soft nationalism, people are forced to choose

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the hard nationalism if they wanna exhibit a bit of nationalism, is that

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yeah.

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You know, you, if you, if you holding up an Australian flag, then

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you must be one of those people.

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And so the people who aren't.

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Hide the flag and don't want show it, I show it.

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But,

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you know, do you have a feeling you'd like to show the flag more,

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but you are being held back?

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Is

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that

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what you're saying?

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As it, as it happens?

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I've got one right here.

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No, it just occurs to me that that the, you know, a lot of the outpourings of

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sympathy for you know, for the billow Wheeler family for, you know, the,

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the sort of indigenous voice to, or the, at least the sort of recognition

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the acknowledgement of refugees and asylum seekers tends to be pushed back

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on by a group of people who called themselves Patriots and the people who

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protested anti-vax that sort of anti mask mandates and anti vaccinations were

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going around waving Australian flags and saying how it was unas UN Australian

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to, you know, where masks or things

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like that.

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Yeah.

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So sort of national flag waving though, is, is kind of one of the

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first boxes to tick for fascism.

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Isn't it like?

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That's, that's the prob that's the problem with it?

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To some extent

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sorry, Don.

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Two of his comment just completely distracted me there.

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Don, what you do with your underwear in your own time is your own problem.

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Mm-hmm I, what, I, I agree that if we are all told to line up on, you know,

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At the side of the street and wave the flag for the prime minister as he

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drives by or something like that then.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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That's an odd approach to nationalism, but I think on the other hand that

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say flying an Australian flag in, you know, in one's front yard is not a

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you, but what's it saying, is it saying we're such a good country and I'm

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proud of us is, is that I think it can

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acknowledge the flaws of a Australia and still be proud of it at successes S

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but, you know, it's like, well, every country can be

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what, what country couldn't be.

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It's, it's kind of, there's a little bit of you know, part of our international

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relations is that we tend to not treat an, when we are a country treating another

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country, it's a different dynamic to we, as people treating other people,

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we there's a sort of a selfishness and that we can exhibit as the country of

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Australia, against other countries that we would never do as individuals with

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other individuals, like as individuals with our neighbors, we treat our

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individual neighbors far better, and with a different view than we do as

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a country, to our, to our neighbors.

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I just, it's kind of like, big deal.

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We, we, we, we happen to, through, she luck be plopped on this particular

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patch of dirt on this particular planet with this particular ideology

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running around in this particular time.

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And there's a bunch of really good people.

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On other clumps of dirt scattered around and to sort of go, Hey, we're

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here and this is our color, you know, look at, I just don't get it myself.

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I not because of bad feelings about Australia, but just, yeah,

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I, I think I like, I absolutely celebrate your cosmopolitan approach there to say,

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we can, we can look at other countries and say they do good things too.

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You know that a and, and certainly that jingoistic kind of God's own country,

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you know, nowhere could be possibly as good as any, you know, as Australia.

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Yeah.

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That's, that's a, a, a trivial, a boring form of jingoism that tries

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to dress itself up as nationalism.

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But I think you can, but I think you are, you know, like you are celebrating

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the, the country that you live in and you admire our, you know, our, the sports

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people and our intellectuals and our playwrights and our, you know, politicians

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that go out and do good in the world.

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Is it, is it any different to having the Brisbane Broncos flag in your front yard?

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It's just saying I'm a member of this team.

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I love my team.

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Yeah.

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I just, it's,

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it's harder to do when when you are overseas to hold up, you know, an

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Australian flag and say, you know, I'm at the you Australia versus west

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Indies match in Jamaica and Kingston, and I'm gonna hold up the, the

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Australian flag, but like, you can.

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You can still be, what, what I wanna differentiate between is you can be proud.

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We can be proud of our successes without putting down anyone else.

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Mm.

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So you wanna RA make, make some room for some positive nationalism.

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Yeah.

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Where it should be viewed as, as that and nothing sinister.

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And the problem is people are shying away from it because it's

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starting to have some potential.

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Well, if connotations,

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because if we don't actively step in and say, no, this is,

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this is inviting refugees here.

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Nationalism is reaching out to our, you know, like I'm proud as an Australian

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that we are reaching out to our first nations people and, you know, going

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for reconciliation things like the, if we don't, if we don't say that

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is what our form of nationalism or patriotism mm-hmm is about, then it

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being gets taken over by the proud boys.

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Yes.

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And by the, the fascists and by

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yes, it all.

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Okay.

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I get it.

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I think it's yes.

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Unless good people start flying the flag.

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Then when you see a flag flying, you're gonna assume it's a bad person.

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Cuz the only people overtly flying the flag at the moment

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are some, some, some nutts.

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Yeah.

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Like if you saw a car driving down the freeway with some Australian

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flags all over it, you wouldn't be thinking how strong all over you'd be.

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You'd be thinking crazy Nutter.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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I get ya.

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We've

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we're allowing an Australian flag in one corner of the rear view mirror.

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Yeah.

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Then, you know?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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That's okay.

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That doesn't

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automatically label them.

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There's more flags out there then will be less likely to

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think a negative connotation.

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All right.

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Yep.

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I get that.

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That's that's sort of thing.

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Positive nationalism.

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Thank you, Paul.

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Right quickly.

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We've done the church schism.

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We've done the church.

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There's a schism and they're going to have a, a problem.

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Well, they're just gonna split and argue with each other over the next.

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Cing probably over church assets and there's been similar splits in

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Canada, us Brazil, New Zealand, often involving protracted legal disputes

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over property rights, Crimea river, Paul

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. Yeah.

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I'm absolutely with you on that.

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In that it's really hard for me to have any sympathy sympathy with you know,

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how there, you know, I don't know.

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No, that's, that's too strong.

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I, I really sympathize with, with the moderates who are, who have been trying

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to say, no, we want you to actually be nice to be people for a change and

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have the evangelicals say, no, no, no.

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We want to go out there and tell everyone that this is our message.

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And you must believe it, whether you like it or not.

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You know?

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I have I'm sympathy.

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I'm sympathetic to the moderates in that, but if it's just a schism in the

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church, then we've had lots of those.

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We could probably get lots more.

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Mm.

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Just quickly, those crazy Japanese, apparently Paul in Japan, it's quite

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common that when you pick up your kid from daycare, they give you the kid.

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Plus the dirty nappies that the kids generated during the day,

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I was kind of vaguely worried when I read this that they'd kind of

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individually like labeled them and kept them separate so that like

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we know that your child generated

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these a survey has shown a light on the common, but rarely discussed

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practice with about 40% of towns and cities in Japan saying they demand

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the guardians of the infant clientele, take their used nappies with them.

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And this woman who was interviewed says why should I take them home?

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and they're kind of scratching their heads as to why this practice has continued.

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And there seems to be maybe about 49% of them do it.

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And they think the reason is it gives the parents the opportunity to check

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their child's health by examining their stools while a, a smaller numbers said

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they don't have facilities or budget to dispose of the nappies themselves.

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So there you go.

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Dear list note, if you've got a baby in childcare and you're picking that baby

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up at some stage in the future if you were Japanese, you, you might well be

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picking up a bag of dirty nappies that you'd be half expected to examine before.

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Disposing

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off.

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Alright, Paul's coming back in a minute.

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While he's away, this will let me actually rattle through some topics.

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Mum and dad, housing investors.

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If you'd like to know the occupation of the.

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The top 10 occupations for people, mums and dads who are housing investors.

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Number one, surgeon, number two, anesthetist three internal

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medicine specialist, four psychiatrists, five dentist, six

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school principal, seven other Medi.

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So there you go.

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Six of the top seven are in some sort of medical thing.

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Eight is an engineering manager.

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Nine is a mining engineer and 10 you'll be pleased to know Chris and jungle juice.

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Jungle is an ADF officer as number 10 in terms of property, investment,

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mums, and dads in Australia.

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Paul's got his headphones on.

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I just rattled through the top 10 of people likely to have property

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investors, huge overrepresentation of medical people there.

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And, but

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technically they could be both, you know, either a mother or a father.

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And therefore, technically they, you know, would count as mom and dad, but no, it's

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absolutely not what we, it's not what the liberal party tell us or the little

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Aussie Aussie battlers, you know, with their three, you know, income properties.

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Yes.

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Yep.

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All right.

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No problem.

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Another time.

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I wasn't even planning to do it in this time, but gonna talk about baby boomers

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briefly at some stage as a generation.

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That is a good argument against democracy.

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I've read this book, Paul, right?

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Have always intrigued by that.

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Your approaches to argument, these kinds of arguments.

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This book is titled a generation of sociopaths.

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How the baby boomers betrayed America.

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Good title.

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Here's the thesis.

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Yeah.

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Is that.

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Because baby boomers was such a large bump in the population and politicians

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wanted their votes, essentially, as the boomers moved through their

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life cycle, the laws were changed.

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So as to suit boomers at the expense of other generations, so yeah, right

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down to changing the voting age and and then taxation changes that were

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made when boomers were basically accumulating and earning high money,

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the tax breaks were on earning.

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And and now that they're cashing in, in terms of retirement and stuff,

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the tax rules are benefiting them.

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And it's quite an expose and essentially kind of a compelling argument that

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politicians with an eye on votes, crafting legislation to suit the most number

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of people, which is democracy, but it ended up favoring a particular cohort

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the baby boomers the expense of others.

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So that will be for another time, but on the face of it sounds reasonable

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as a theory, as a hypothesis,

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I'm glad you put it as the politicians decided to favor them, because I don't

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feel like the baby boomer boomers as a generation just up and decided that we

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are going to enact these policies because the policy politicians that, that did that

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true.

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But if you were to look at, mm, you know, a generation that say let's nationalize

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let's, let's sell off the national assets of the, you know, The railway,

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the the things that have been built up by previous generations, I will sell them.

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We'll get a, a sweetener into our economy for the next two or three years,

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but long term for future generations.

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It's, it's a bad move, essentially.

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It's a, it's a selfish move by the current generation, if you decide

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to sell off the commons and, sure.

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And not restrict it.

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So,

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so yeah, but I feel like that's applied at all times that the

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commons have been sold off.

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Yes.

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But when the commons was the real commons, going back more into the 17, 18 hundreds,

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it was more a case of, we need to protect the commons and we need to recognize

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it's there for everybody and protect it and stop people encroaching on it.

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Whereas in more recent times, we've lost the recognition of the commons

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and going, oh, what you mean?

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I can buy some cheap Telstra shares that John Howard and

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Julia Gillard are selling great.

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Don't worry that down the track, we won't have a telecommunications

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network owned by the commons.

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It'll be owned by some private enterprise.

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So that's the sort of thing where you can accuse a generation of

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being selfish by cashing in stuff that isn't there to cash in.

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I agree.

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But again, I would push back on the idea that it was just solely for the

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baby boomers in that, you know, the, I would, I guess I would argue here that

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you know, Reaganomics and Thatcherism privatize, everything philosophy are.

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Came at a time where both the unions in the us and the, and the UK were very

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strong and that was the right wing, right wing was right wing of politics,

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method of, you know, killing that dragon sell those off, privatize them, make

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them into, to, you know, take away that the power of those, those unions.

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Yeah.

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Build up a, a bunch of myths about, you know, doll, bludgers and whatever.

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But like, you know, we, we saw you know, whether it's big mining leases in the

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fifties and sixties up to, you know, privatized companies in the eighties

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and nineties and even the two thousands.

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And I guess I would argue that the, the latest one is the, the creation

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of things like a carbon market where carbon certificates can be traded as if

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they aren't just purely for the purpose of deferring a unit of CO2 emission.

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Mm-hmm, no, there something that could, you know, increase and decrease in value.

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And you know, who knows what speculators, you know, money

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speculators could get out of it.

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You know, all of these things are taking and you know, which are

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basically, which basically start in the commons and privatizing them.

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And they've been, that's suited capital very well.

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Mm-hmm

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I mean, who's, who seems to be.

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At least wanting to do something about climate change, which

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generation the older, or the younger generation, the boomers, or the

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millennials.

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Sure.

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The, the boomers at the current, you know, sort of holder of that stick.

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Yeah.

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But even then, you know, I mean, my, my mom and dad grew up in that generation

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and both of them are, you know, dad was mummies passionate environmentalists.

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So I don't, I don't

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feel like, ah, your lived experience.

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Isn't an argument for,

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it's just no sure.

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But what I'm all I'm saying is that it is not, the boomers

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are not here universally of

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one mind.

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No, I'm not saying they are, but you know, there are trends

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that are pretty clear, so sure.

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And,

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and I would add that, you know, my two people that I know who I have, let's say

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cease to associate with told me at one point I think when they, it was about

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2013 that they were quite proud that they would had voted for Tony Abbott

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because they were just about to retire.

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And that would mean that the the liberal party was going to be a

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better government to, to manage the economy and keep their superannuation.

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Yeah.

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yeah.

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Like you, what you voted labor for 40 years and now you've just changed

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your vote because you're hoping that the other side, do you a better deal.

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It doesn't sound like you are.

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It sounds like you're putting like exactly what John Howard did

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right at the start of the episode.

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Yes.

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You know, putting political expedience, you like personal interest as at.

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The forefront for Howard

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and Barnaby.

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It was, what's not, what's in the best interest of my party.

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Not what's in the best interest of my country.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Now, moving on to column cultural Marxism, Paul.

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Yes.

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And why am I gonna talk about this?

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Because I see it cropping up in different articles and different

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news items from time to time.

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So I'm gonna set the scene with some commentary about it.

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So Holly Hughes to start with, it turns out Marxist, don't like being called

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Marxist apparently, but we do know that in the education department, there is a

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very strong, left wing Ben and anyone that denies that either doesn't have kids at

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school, or aren't saying what's happening, even with the curriculum, the curriculum

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is moving so far to the left these days.

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We know that it's all John Kanes, if not Marxism, rather

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than Adam Smith, there we go.

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So Marxism John Kanes, Adam Smith, I'm

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absolutely prepared to bet that she could not define Marxism at all, or

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the theories of Adam Smith in and, and how they've been bastardized.

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And what was the other one that she mentioned there?

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Anyway I think she's a liberal Senator in Victoria, so yeah.

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That's Holly Hughes.

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Now another place where this has come up, let me just grab this clip is this is

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the new one, NA United Australia party.

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Oh, the, the single Senator.

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Yes.

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Senator bait, Baba mm-hmm bait.

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Another Victorian let's go with Mor what are you doing in Victoria?

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So, so this I'm not sure I get a feeling, this was his maiden speech, so.

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Let's have a listen to this one as well.

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We are witnessing the steady decline of our traditional institutions, such as

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family, marriage, religion, the sanctity of life, patriotism,

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borders, and education

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to name a few.

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This is not an accident, but rather by design radical Marxist ideology has been

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marching through our institutions for some time terms like white privilege

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and gender fluidity have now become commonplace.

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Marxist se world as being inherently unequal, they seek to address this

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apparent inequality by tearing down the very fabric of our civilization,

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Sanna that somebody may be rebuilt

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in their forks, utopian vision, oh vision, which would seek

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to destroy the very systems that have made us one of the greatest countries

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in the world and turn us into a shadow

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of our former selves,

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a nation, which bow of the whim of big government, where the individual is

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snuffed out in favor of collectivist ideology, where freedom of a speech

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thought and religiou oh, look, he, he just talking about the liberal party.

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He just goes, he goes on

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and on.

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Yeah.

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Thank you for saving me.

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Like, it must be wrong to laugh at a person like that, but I

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can't find it in my heart to to give him any credit for that.

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No, it, it, it went like, especially when he, you know, went for the, and tear

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through the very fabric of society, you know, it's just like, did you just get

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out that, that out of rhetoric 1 0 1, you

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know yes.

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Yeah.

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He was trying to paint a picture.

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He wasn't convincing me.

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I dunno if he's convinced others, but yeah, he said radical Marxist.

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Have taken over our institutions and will seek to turn on the

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very fabric of Australia.

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So that may be rebuilt in their, for utopian vision.

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which of course the person who wrote it wrote the French word

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photo, if a UX, French for fake.

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But I know I didn't run that past him.

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So

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yeah.

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I'm I'm with you jungle juice straight from the military playbook.

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Yeah.

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So

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they are bad and we are good.

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Yeah.

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That's all you need to know.

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And I'll just put up, this is sort of an internet meme I saw, which again, just

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Marxism thrown into climate hysteria.

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It's, it's an iceberg with the, with the outta the water tip being called

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climate hysteria and the under the water, majority of the iceberg being

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called Marxism, like just they're really throwing it in, in different areas.

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I find if you it's one of those things, you know how, if you say

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your car, you need new tires.

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All of a sudden you start seeing advertisements for car tires.

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Mm-hmm and you just, yeah.

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It's one of those things that when you're sort of attuned to it it

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seemed to pop up in a lot of places.

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So I'm seeing it in lots of places.

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And yeah, this, this throwing the word of Marx out as an insult in a

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boogie man and this group of Marxist.

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So you're better watch out.

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I, I do wonder if they think that communist just isn't doesn't have

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the same bite anymore, you know, like they used to call people socialists

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and now socialists are kind of okay.

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And so we call them communists and now communist is kind of okay.

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And so we better call them Marxists because that's even worse.

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Well, I think they know they can't get away with communist because it's

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a little bit like what I said with China that people refer to China

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now as an authoritarian regime, rather than a communist one, because

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people go, oh, hang on a minute.

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There's, there's all these billionaires in China and they've got a market economy.

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It doesn't look that communist to me.

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So, I think they're playing on the fact that it's difficult to accuse

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bill shorten of being a communist and people go, this doesn't sound right.

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But if accuse of being a Marxist, they go, oh geez.

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maybe he is not sure one is, sounds bad.

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Well, because you can't define it because, you know, I don't know,

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like Mark's was bad, you know?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I really worry with these kind, this kind of like the left does it too.

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And I browse imager occasionally for my sins.

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And there's a lot of just kind of basically name calling, like,

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you know, making jokes at Trump's expense or making jokes at Hill's

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expenses or, you know, and it.

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You know, the right has basically realized that, oh, there's these,

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there's these things called memes.

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And we can use them to get our ideas out and make people laugh and, and therefore

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they spread and they don't have to

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be true.

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Yeah.

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They don't have to be, you know, it, it doesn't have to mean anything, you

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know, like you could make the same image with the top caption being for

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CO's pendulum and the bottom being God mm-hmm , you know, it would mean as much.

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Mm-hmm

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well pronounced for co by the way, because we are gonna be talking

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about French and German philosophers.

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Oh righty.

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And I thought I've just bagged this one nation Senator for

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not pronouncing faux correctly.

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I better look up.

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I better look up the pronunciation here, so yeah.

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So

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I'm glad you, I gave you a heads up there.

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Yeah.

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So Michelle Fuko we're gonna be talking about, we're gonna be

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talking about an Italian guy.

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G R a M S C I, which I would've said Grahams ski, but I looked it up and

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it's Graham, she at Tony Graham.

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She is Italian guy then there's Fredrick, Nicha, Nicha.

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So Nicha or Nicha.

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I think it's Nicha.

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Cuz when I went on Google, how to pronounce.

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So you've you would've seen it written dear listener.

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N I E T Z S C H E.

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And I'd never bothered to sort of, I've read it lots of times, but

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never really listened to people.

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Cause I don't listen to Jordan Peterson I guess, but nature apparently.

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So pretty direct nature.

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And there's another guy Jill at the loose French one.

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So I'll do my best to mangle the French language, which I'm no expert

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in as we work our way through these French and German philosophies.

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That's Australian . So the question is we need to know a little bit about

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Marx and what he actually said to determine whether something is Marxist,

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the starters before we even a wild idea discuss whether it's good or bad.

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So there was an article here from the conversation, a guy Christopher

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Pollard teaches philosophy in sociology at deacon university.

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His research is on 20th century, European philosophy and social theory saying he

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sounds qualified enough to make a few comments and I'm just gonna paraphrase

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some of the things he says, Marx was writing where mid Victorian capitalism

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was at its Dickensian, worst analyzing how the new industrialism was causing radical

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social upheaval and severe urban poverty.

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And this is important actually, when you're thinking about marks is

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it was that Dickensian type of era that he was seeing and experiencing.

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It was a, some people were in a terrible state.

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So I'm just reading a little bit from my Kenon Mallek book, the

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quest for a moral compass page 2 34.

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So this was Engels Marx's.

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Colleague was writing about a place called little island, which was a slum

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in Manchester and he writes the cottages are old, dirty, and of the smallest sort,

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the streets uneven fall into ruts and in part without drains or pavement, masses

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of refu, awful and sickening, filth lie among standing pearls in all directions.

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The atmosphere is poisoned by the Eluvia from these and Laden and darkened by the

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smoke of a dozen tall factory chimneys, a horde of ragged women and children

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swarm about here as filthy as the SW that thrive upon the garbage heaps and

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in the puddles, the race that lives in these ruinous cottages behind broken

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windows, meed with oil skin, sprung doors and rotten door posts, or in dark wet

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sellers in measureless filth and stench in this atmosphere, pen in as if with

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a purpose, this race must really have reached the lowest stage of humanity.

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This is the impression and the line of thought, which the exterior of this

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district forces upon the beholder.

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There you go.

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This race must really have reached the lowest stage of humanity.

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Things were bad.

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Good, good words.

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Like Eluvia yes.

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In modern writing, do you?

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No, you don't not

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quality there.

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Yeah, but you know, this was a low point in human history and this was,

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you know, people in, you know, in terms of medieval, England, at least people

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were providing for themselves in as a peasant in the, in land owned by a Lord.

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You would rather be in that situation than, than in these terrible a place

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like little island in Manchester.

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So it was a dark point in human history that marks was dealing with, and

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he's looking at capitalism as quite rightly having caused this situation.

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So always bear that in mind with him going back to this article by

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this guy About marks his primary interest wasn't simply capitalism.

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It was human existence and our potential, his enduring philosophical

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contribution is an insightful, historically grounded perspective on

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human beings and industrial society.

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Marx observed capitalism.

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Wasn't only an economic system by which we produced food, clothing, and shelter.

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It was also bound up with a system of social relations, work, structured

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people's lives and opportunities in different ways, depending on their

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role in the production process.

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Most people, either part of the owning class or the working class, the interests

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of these classes were fundamentally opposed, which led inevitably to

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conflict between them on the basis of this marks predicted the inevitable

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collapse of capitalism leading to equally inevitable working class revolution.

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So look marks looked at class and said, we've got an owning class

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and I work in class, the interest conflict, or in opposition.

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You can't argue with, with what mark was was saying there.

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Now he's made the prediction of he really hasn't

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sorry.

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It really hasn't fundamentally changed.

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No.

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And he's made the prediction of an inevitable collapse of capitalism.

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Well, well yet to see whether that plays out or not.

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But he's, you know, saying that eventually the working class will revolt.

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He said Mark's argued.

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Social change is driven by the tension, created with an existing

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social order through technological and organizational innovations in production.

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Technology driven changes in production, make new social forms possible, such

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that old social forms and classes become outmoded and displaced by new ones.

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Once the dominant class were the land owning Lord.

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But the new industrial system produced a new dominant class, the capitalists.

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And he said he sort of philosophically says that the conditions under which

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people live deeply shape the way they see and understand the world as

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marks, put it, then make their own history, but they do not make it under

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circumstances chosen by themselves.

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Individuals and groups are situated in social contexts, inherited from the

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past, which limit what they can do.

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So we are victims of our circumstances.

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Yeah.

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And, but I mean, keep in mind as well.

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You know, marks was writing in the time and, you know, Dickens and other

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commentators at the time there is this rising middle classes as he kind

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of talks about where that has lots of money because they are traders.

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They are factory owners and they're like whole books.

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Like the etiquette book publishing industry is a thing because their sons

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and daughters are mixing in the society own, you know, that, that formally was

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dominated like exclusively by people who had titles back to the 12th century and

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suddenly there's all these up and coming, who knows where class that came from.

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But now they're like they bought that their estate next door.

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We can't be having that.

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Mm.

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The only way that the upper class could frown on that was basically by putting

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them down by laughing at their manners.

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Mm.

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And so the lo the, the lower, the, the merchant class.

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Taught themselves manners really quickly, right?

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Yep.

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I really, I really also wanna say jungle juice here has said I've come

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to realize that capitalism is the root of all evil and the realization of

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being a foot soldier for the ruling class is, is unhappy with that.

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They're unhappy with that.

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And I, I would reassure you there, like, as marks is kind of saying, seeing this is

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not because either you had a choice on it.

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No, you are lumped with it.

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You are.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Or, or, or necessarily that doing that, you know, there

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is well, but it's a realization when you're being screwed is you could go, Ew.

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So I think maybe jungle J's jungle is going, yeah, holy shit.

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I'm being screwed.

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Certainly.

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It's certainly, maybe like, you know, I dunno if he's actually, you know, quelled

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any riots in manly or something like that, but, you know, the, I, I, I do think that

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you know, and I, I have good friends and I know a lot of military and ex-military

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people and all of them have gone into that service for the right reasons.

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They have wanted to serve their country and they've wanted to

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try and do the right thing.

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Doesn't mean you're supporting the capitalists just means you're trying

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to, you know, do the right thing.

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And part of the, the, part of the, the goal noble goal of this Trevor, this

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Trevor is to give people that broader

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perspective.

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That's what we're aiming for here.

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I'll keep going.

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So Marx's concept of ideology introduced an innovative way to critique how

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dominant beliefs and practices commonly taken to be for the good of all.

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Actually reflect the interests and reinforce the power of the

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ruling class for Mark's beliefs in philosophy, culture and economics

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often function to rationalize unfair advantages and privileges as natural.

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When in fact they are not.

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So he was not saying this is a conspiracy of the ruling class, rather it's

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because people are raised and learn how to think within a given social

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order through this, the views that seem eminently rational, rather conveniently

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tend to uphold the distribution of power and wealth as they are.

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So yeah, the people in charge who are in charge of the major institutions in our

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society naturally have those institutions reflect their beliefs and ideals,

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which it naturally in their interests.

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And that was one of the concepts that marks recognized which is

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why we should be especially wary of someone like Peter Dutton or John Howard

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telling us that they, they want to keep the negative gearing gearing rules because

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they're trying to support the, the mom and dad investors or the little people.

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So some of these ideas, like sort of this, this class battle and this idea

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of, of the ideal ideology of the ruling class naturally being maintained you

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know, we might have thought some of you might think, well, of course that's the

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case, but this was sort of new thinking.

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So marks was a a thinker in these sorts of things that people hadn't

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necessarily been thinking about before.

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So, so that was that article and A little bit more on, so

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that was Marx and now Marxism.

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So you would think that Marxism should be a reflection of Marx,

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but maybe not necessarily the case.

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This is where things get hairy, vague.

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So under Wikipedia for Marxism it's a method of socioeconomic analysis that uses

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a materialistic materialist interpretation of historical development to understand

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class relations and social conflict.

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Marxism has developed over time into various branches and schools

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of thought currently, no single definitive Marxist theory exists.

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So that's a good point to understand when Holly Hughes accuses people are

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being Marxist, or if anybody that you're talking to, you know, at a

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dinner party and the topic terms tends to Marxism, you really need to say,

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well, what do you mean by Marxism?

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What particular branch of Marxism are you referring to?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, because there are different schools that we're

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going to sort of, get into here.

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Actually that might be something for jungle juice to use when people

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call him for a a communist for a socialist for no a call of communist.

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Like for suggesting that people might actually be possible to be, you know,

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being sustainable ask them which school of communism do you mean?

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Yes.

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And see what they do.

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yeah, indeed.

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Yep.

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So Marx.

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Sex to explain social phenomena within any given society, by

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analyzing the economic activities.

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It assumes that the form of economic organization and the mode of production

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influences all other social phenomena, including political institutions

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and cultural systems and ideologies.

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So mark says, look at the economic organization, how is

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the motor production organized?

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And that will have a huge effect on the rest of society.

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He says as forces of production improve things like technology, existing

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forms of organizing become obsolete and hinder further progress, and thus

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begins an era of social revolution.

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So, you know, you, we are seeing that in America, for example.

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So production has moved in terms of manufacturing and in

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Australia as well offshore.

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So you've got that rust belt that was a force of production

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that no longer has a role.

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And, and they're beginning an era of social revolution.

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I would submit in terms of voting for Trump was a, an act of revolution.

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Okay.

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I I'm, this is I'm interested by this, this idea.

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Mm-hmm I do think there are probably a number of reasons that

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get conflated into like, you know, there are a number of reasons.

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People voted for Trump.

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Some people who have realized that those were bad some people are just

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sticking to them, but I definitely, so I definitely agree with the point that

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they, firstly, those people wanted to hold onto a, a mode of life where we

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just produced vehicles in the way that we always used to that may be doing a

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little bit just of a disservice, but, you know, I don't think that's unfair.

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And

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they needed to sell their labor and their opportunity to sell their labor was

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taken away from them with no alternative.

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Like if people had said to them, guess what?

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We're not making cars anymore.

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They'd go down the factory, down the road and make solar panels.

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They would've been fine, like provided I can sell my labor and, and support myself.

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But yeah, that was withdrawn.

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Well, and, and, you know, don't forget that Detroit also, you know, in that area

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had a, a big crisis in the seventies as well when the, you know, the, the classic

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American car was this massive gas guzzler.

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And the Japanese imports just absolutely took the, took them by, by surprise

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because people wanted cheap economical cars, because it was also the, the

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kind of the seventies fuel crisis.

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But I, so I, I, if I'm following your point there, then you know, they have.

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Seen that economic change in their in their circumstances, not necess.

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Yeah, not necessarily

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the economics of the, the capital that has moved those jobs overseas.

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So they, and therefore those people have decided to rebel and they've rebelled

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against the, both the go the, the government that they think has enacted

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those policies or allowed this to occur.

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And that was in that, that was formed into Hillary Clinton in that particular,

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that revolting against a system because that, and they saw Trump

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as being outside of the system.

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So that, that was the kind of the, the revolutionary part of their action.

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But I don't think they necessarily understood things.

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They were just angry and lashing out and said, well, this is not working for me.

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I'm, I'm voting for something revolutionary, which they

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saw Trump as being well,

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because this is where I think we overlap in motives because I think there's also

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you know, that one of the classic things that capital does it's that cartoon

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of the king sort of facing an angry mob of people holding pitchforks and

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Tor and torches, and his advisor says, oh, don't worry, Sarah, all you need

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to do is just tell that the Pitchfork people, that the torch people want

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them to take the pitch away from them.

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Yes.

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The, those people were convinced that the Mexicans, the Chinese, the anyone else had

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stolen their jobs when they hadn't stolen them, the companies had given them away.

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Yes.

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And strange, and, and this sort of follows the, the de unionizing process of the

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government in the, you know, of Reaganism in the eighties, which really worked to,

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to break up a lot of the power of the unions, which could otherwise had sort

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of organized the workers to say, hang on.

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No, it's not the, it's not the fault of some people over there.

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It's the fault of Defor company.

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And we are going to pick at its office until we get change.

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But where I think this also intersects is that that racist view also works

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for a bunch of, or, you know, a sub, a subset of those people who

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are also, and Trump is racist.

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He's quite obviously racist.

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He's quite obviously sexist.

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And he makes, you know, makes it a virtue.

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And so that appealed to a another set of people who are, who were,

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were happy that finally, they didn't have to put up with actually being

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nice to people for a change, and they could just be sexist and racist.

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Mm.

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You know, as they

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wanted to.

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Mm, yep.

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I'm just going a bit more angles who was Marx as sort of, co-writer on

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different things did not support the use of the term Marxism to describe

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either marks or his own views.

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He claimed that the term was being abusively used as a rhetorical qualifier

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by those attempting to cast themselves as the real followers of marks while

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casting others into different terms.

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In 1980 in 1882, Engels claimed that marks had criticized, that marks had criticized

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self-proclaimed Marxist Paul Lafa by arguing that if Lafa Yu's views were

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considered Marxist, then quote, one thing is certain and that is, I am not a Marxist

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. So Marx was saying, if this guy says

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So, so if somebody says, what sort of Marxist say you could say, well, I'm the

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sort of Marxist he doesn't believe in calling people Marxist cause Marxist Marx

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himself didn't believe in it.

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You could, you, you could say I'm, I'm not a Lafa and

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Marxist.

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Yes, right.

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Lemme just let, just scoot on a bit yeah, I've mentioned before that

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for Marx, it was about the basically society, all constituent features

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of society, social class, political pyramid ideologies are assumed to

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stem from the economic activity.

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So that's a big part for Marx is how is our economy structured?

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That will then determine a lot of our other factors of our society.

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And Hmm.

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And he says it is a little bit reflexive.

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So in that the base gives rises to the super structure.

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The newly formed social organizations can then act again upon the

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base and the super structure.

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So yes, the economy and the means of production creates lots

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of these other institutions.

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There is some interplay going back the other way to some.

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I'm gonna skip through a little bit of so marks believed that the

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capitalist bourgeois Z and the economists were promoting what he

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saw as the lie that the interests of the capitalist and the worker are on.

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This are one and the same.

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So he emphasizes the the conflict between the two classes and in pre capitalist

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economies, exploitation of the work was achieved by physical coercion.

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Under the capitalist mode of production.

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Those results are more subtly achieved because workers do not own the means

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of production and must voluntarily enter into an exploitive work

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relationship with a capitalist in order to earn the necessities of life.

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The workers entry into such employment is voluntary in that they choose

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which capitalist to work for.

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However, the worker must work or star thus exploitation is inevitable in

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the voluntary nature of a worker.

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Participating in a capitalist society is illusionary losery.

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I mean, in ancient times, people worked their fields and did their stuff on their

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farms and were largely self-sufficient.

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If you wanted to do stuff, wanted 'em to do stuff for you, you had to either

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convince them through force or through payment of some extra means because

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people wouldn't necessarily want to go anywhere if they didn't have to.

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But when you don't own yeah.

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Property, you don't own a self sustaining farm.

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All you have is your labor to sell.

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Then you are at the mercy of the system and you, you can't really

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say no, you have to participate.

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That's a Marxist theory.

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Can't argue with it

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all.

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I guess the one little caveat that I have there is that it is like short

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of basically kind of almost getting to just hunter, a gatherers where

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no one actually owns any property.

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No one can keep someone out of anywhere and you basically

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share the, the good and the bad.

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The it's hard to see a situation if you wanna, like, you know, look

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at it from the point of view of a, someone must labor or staff, then

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that's kind of almost true everywhere.

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You know, so it's hard to imagine short of sort of, you know, man

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are growing on trees and did our

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indigenous, our infinite quantities of tower.

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Did our indigenous brothers and sisters have to labor or star

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Paul.

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I, I would argue in some ways that they actually did in that they, that

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a person that was sent out from the tribe would almost certainly die.

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Mm.

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Because they could not hunt enough and gather enough to to make a living.

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The, the tribe could do that.

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Mm.

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And, but, you know, all, I'm kind of like, it's, what's the word I'm looking for?

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It is a situation which is impossible to disprove Until we have a society

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where there are robots to do all of the menial work and, you know,

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everything, and everyone basically has food and all of the necessa, the

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necessities of life mm-hmm provided for.

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But I you know, like, that's you it's?

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Well, one of the, one of the things that mark talks about

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is the alienation of work.

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So in previous societies, you might be just a peasant on a Lord's farm.

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You'd have your own little patch where you are producing your own food for yourself.

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And some of it goes to the Lord and occasionally you're required to do some

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certain things, but or you might be some craftsman working you know, as a Smithy

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or, you know, as a, as a craftsperson of something, but peoples were essentially

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their work or their labor was intimately connected with their, with their lives

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in a, in a relatively pleasant way.

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It was, it was work done in the area they lived and it had to be sustainable.

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And, and as opposed to the work that they perform in the capitalist wage sense,

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there's a they're disassociated from it.

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The widget comes along the production line, they whack a nail into it and

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the widget moves down the production line and they just do it endlessly.

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And it might be all sorts of things.

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Yeah.

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So this, this was part of what he was recognizing as the change that had

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taken place, because people had no ownership of what they were doing.

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They were alienated from it.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, and.

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I was gonna approach that idea from a, a different different direction, which

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would be that you know, in those times you could also say that, say a, you know, a

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Welsh crafter probably could, could grow about 80% of their stuff and maybe they

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would trade it with the Smith to get a new plow share or the, you know, wheel right.

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To make a new wagon wheel or things like that.

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But by and large, you know, both they had, they could directly control

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production of most of their, their income that fed them and kept them going.

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And there was no uncertainty about where that would come from.

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Yep.

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And who owned the land or things like that.

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Whereas certainly for the, the, you know, in the 17th and 18th centuries,

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as the commons becomes increasingly sold off in the UK and other places,

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and, you know, people are like the, the Highland clearances in Scotland

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and the, you know, potato feminine, things like that in Ireland.

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People are both unable to support themselves on their land

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because it's not their land.

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Like the potato famine happened because potatoes were really popular.

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They were cash crop.

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Normally farmers would grow a range of stuff that would

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keep their FA families alive.

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And they were told, no, you can't grow that.

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You have to grow potatoes so we can sell them to England and we'll pay you.

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And then you can buy food.

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Mm.

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And when the, yeah, I think there's also a problem where the lots

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got increasingly smaller as well.

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And potato was a, was a crop that you could produce lots of on a small plot.

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And if you're trying to generate calories to feed yourself off a

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small lot, it was, it was probably the best bang for your buck,

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I think.

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Yeah.

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Hard to get a, a small lot to feed you, but yeah.

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So, you know, I, and, and certainly for the people that were moving to

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the cities, you know, many of them for the first time, you know, basically in

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the, the history of their family and they're looking for work and they're

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like, you know, well, we can get work in factories or we can get we're at work,

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running errands or being a, you know, a domestic servant or things like that.

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Those people have no control over where, you know, their, their

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labor or their, their labor.

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And they, and I guess you could also say that for a lot of those people,

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you know, you're producing, I mean, I'm sensitive to this because I produce

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software that is so completely esoteric in relation to where I get my food from.

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It's, it's hard to feel like there's a further distance between those two points.

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So, I don't

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the, the point that I want to meet on is that I feel like there's,

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so I've seen it put this way.

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There's, there are some people that believe that workers hate

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their jobs and they will do everything possible to avoid them.

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Unless you.

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Pay them money and watch them like a Hawk mm-hmm and the, and there is no

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inva innovation or creativity from them.

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The, the only thing they're interested in doing is avoiding work.

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And therefore you have to, as the manager have to pro provide the

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creativity and tell them what to do, then there's the view that workers

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actually want to contribute, want to work, want to do good things.

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But the at, you know, usually there are just a bunch of roadblocks in their path.

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And if you, you, as a manager can clear them out, then you get great, great

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value and great performance out of them.

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Mm.

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And there's definitely that feeling in in, you know, the Dickensian time

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that, you know, that you talk about marks starting out in that some of

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these people are producing silverware that, or, you know, linen cloth that

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they could never, ever afford to own.

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Mm-hmm that it is that they are, or, you know, they are servants in an upper

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class manner where they are never, ever allowed to have anything like that.

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And so class exists to, so to tell those people, no, you don't get to have that.

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You get to be down there or at this level.

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And as long as you can Snee on down on the people that are

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below you, that you're you're.

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And that's, and that's a point at which it's really hard to feel like the work

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you are doing, you know, polishing, endless knife blades, To go on the

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silverware of the rich and famous is a worthwhile life, you know, mm.

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Kind of thing.

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Yeah.

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So marks would say in your circumstance because of globalization that it's

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the capitalist owner of whoever you word for is going to hire cheaper.

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It professionals from China or India or Philippines, or somewhere

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like that, wherever they can.

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And that technology's going to improve and wipe out roles that normally

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perhaps creativeness or, or other human element to to sort of dumb down

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even more the work that people do.

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And that there's this tension that capitalism has.

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And even if you, current employer is a really good group and don't wanna

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do that, then some venture capitalist is gonna come along and sweep up this

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company or, you know, and run it along.

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Those lines though,

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is, is going

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to undercut us.

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So he's, he's big on the, the class tension.

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He's big on technology taking jobs away people losing high caliber jobs

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for lower paying ones as a result.

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And the capitalist always choosing the cheaper option at the expense

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of the worker, if possible.

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So that's a Marx is

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you that's, that's a Marxist queue.

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And I,

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which where I think, and, and I guess cycling back to our very

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beginning in that Dickensian image, he'd seen it happening where people

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were incredibly cruel to people and said that this is how it happens.

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And look.

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I would absolutely argue that we, you know, some of the horror stories of,

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you know, the gig economy that some of the horror stories of people being

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fired, you know, by a text message.

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You know, none of, none of those things have really changed.

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Mm-hmm I guess where I, I guess, where I'm wondering here is it's always

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felt to me that marks is picking on a particular behavior and exaggerating

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that out to explain every part of it.

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And that's kind of the, that those two theories of that's where I'm

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thinking of those two theories of how people want to work.

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And I would generally say most people are somewhere in the

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middle of those two extremes.

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Mm-hmm, , I'd my I'd quite happily browse, you know, imager all day, if

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no one, you know, if I, if I still got paid but on the other hand, I really

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love my job and I'm really glad that I can contribute my knowledge and skill

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to, to make, you know, what I hope is the it industry a better place.

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Mark's, wouldn't doubt somewhere in between those Mark Marks, wouldn't

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doubt your willingness to contribute.

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He's not critical of, of, of the labor willing to, to contribute.

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He's critical of the capitalist taking advantage of them.

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But I guess he is critical in the sense critical of the proletariat in that he.

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It seems to me, he's saying that basically that they they're, they're

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reduced to selling their labor power it's as if that is somehow

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well, he says yes.

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In, in meaningless alienated jobs, so, right.

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And I guess I would, I would wonder there whether say a Smith was

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a me meaningless alienated job.

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No, he, he would've seen trades people as having a, a meaningful job.

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Sure.

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A factory worker on a production line at all.

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What's that a Smith does not produce any food at all.

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No, he doesn't have to produce food.

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He has

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prayed for food, right?

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Yes.

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That's not, but he doesn't produce, he doesn't have the means of production,

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of food, of his, of sustenance.

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He has to bargain with it and thus he's, but you know, that's

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where I'm critical of that.

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Yeah.

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Overall view.

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But he talks about I'm mean visiting J Smith who owns his own workshop, if you

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like, and he's making stuff and selling it, that, that marks describes that as

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a valid endeavor and that that person under capitalism, that the workshops

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disappear, it, it becomes a factory.

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And that person who was in a community making stuff for the community ends

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up on a production line, banging rivets into something or, or a, you

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know, the horseshoes are made in a machine now rather than by hand.

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So he sees that alienation as a, as an issue.

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They don't have to be producing food to be As he sees it doing a

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job that they would get value from, but I'll just move on a little bit.

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Let me just move on.

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So there's a few, a bit of terminology, the proletariat.

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So that's the class of the wage laborers.

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There's a Lumin proletariat, which is like London, lumping.

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Thank you.

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Vago Bond's beggars prostitutes.

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There's the OI Z who own the means of production.

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And there's the petite, petite, OI Z petite OII.

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Now this is an interesting one that he came across, that he identified

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those who work and can afford to buy little labor, power EG EG small

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business owners and trade workers.

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Marxism predicts that the continual reinvention of the means of production

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eventually would destroy the petite bushwa Z degrading them from the

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middle class to the proletariat.

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We, I think that's quite insightful.

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I mean, we all recognize it now, but maybe not so much in Mark's time that,

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that people who, who were small business trade workers the reinvention of the means

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of production would destroy that class.

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Yeah.

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And would degrade

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them the example of the the Smith yeah.

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Being replaced by a machine that can make yep.

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A thousand, you know,

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horse juice an hour.

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Well, the one I think of now is radiologists, like apparently now machine

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learning sort of, scanning of x-rays has reached the point where it's more

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accurate than the human eye, like running these things through a program now.

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Yeah.

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Is reaching the point where you get a better, more secure result than a

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trained radiologist, looking at the.

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That's this is actually well, so, okay.

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This is really interesting.

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Yeah, because on the one hand they're also studies that have shown

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that radiologists are biased, for example, to find something right.

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Whereas an AI can look at, say a healthy spine and say there's nothing there.

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Yep.

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I heard a really interesting piece of re a research.

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I can't remember where it was from where they divided people with that came in

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for complaining to doctors of back pain.

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Half of them were sent for MRIs.

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Half of them were sent for x-rays on the basis of that.

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They looked at their overall health outcomes and they were exactly,

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basically exactly the same.

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The people that had MRIs did not statistically get any better, like

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health wise, they didn't improve health versus the people who had x-rays.

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But the people who got MRIs were four times more likely to have surgery.

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Right.

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Okay.

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So getting an MRI means your radiographer, who whoever's reading that is more

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likely to recommend you get surgery for it and you get surgery and it

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still doesn't cure your back pain.

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Mm-hmm so that, so on the one hand, the you know, the, the radiographer,

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I'm not, I, I like, I'm not.

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Gonna say that all radiographer are bad, but I think that there are biases in

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human radiographers that it's possible to actually kind of remove out of the the AI

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system, but all of these things, like, you know, even for the AI assisted radiography

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you don't go in to the doctor and he just sends it away to the AI and comes

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back with a result and you go, oh, okay.

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That's, that's fine.

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Then no, the radiographer checks it.

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And so there's a, there's the possibility because there's always the possibility

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the AI has missed something that a trained radio radiographer will pick up.

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Mm.

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And so what you get is the best of both.

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Mm.

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I merely provided as an example of, of how technology can, can take a line,

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I'm sorry to have very well paying job

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, but, but you're absolutely right in that,

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example the work of translators there's, you know, there's some brilliant and

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beautiful translation of, you know, books from one language to another.

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But if you imagine, you know, translating something like the works

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of Shakespeare, just in, through pure machine translation, into a language

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like Spanish your, we could probably say that a Spaniard would read that and.

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Wait Shakespeare said this, this doesn't make sense.

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Mm.

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Because, you know, and that's something where that's probably

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putting a lot of trained translators out of a job just simply because

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we can throw machines at that now.

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Mm.

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So, yeah.

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Yep.

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So, marks anticipated that sort of stuff.

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So, so that's sort of general what marks said, obviously.

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I've probably got some of it wrong, but that that's, that's

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a general starting point.

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Now I wanna move on to, by the way, we're gonna split this episode.

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every time you invite me, cause

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I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be in Sydney week after next.

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So this, this is gonna be cropped out and put into that one.

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If you're listening in the chat room, if you're still there yeah, it's gonna

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be cut out on the podcast and, and zipped across in a couple of weeks.

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All right.

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Why do you read I'm

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just gonna go Lou again.

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Okay.

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Yeah, you do that.

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Yeah.

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You can't find good podcast host with strong bladders these days.

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Dear listener in the chat room.

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oh, I was nearly gonna do this solo, Joe.

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He just gave me a last minute call and said he was working thought,

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oh, do I wanna do that still solo.

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Hey James.

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You're in the chat room.

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The week beginning, Friday, the 5th of September James.

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So sorry, week beginning, Monday the fifth.

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So it would be Friday, the 9th of September.

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James, are you able to meet at the usual place?

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Friday night for drinks, the other with the other Sydney

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patrons or anyone who's listening.

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If you are listening and you're in Sydney, you're gonna be there Friday night.

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The 9th of September.

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Yeah.

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That's it at your club?

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Get in contact and you can meet some interesting people and meet James.

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He's got a fantastic mustache by the way.

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So he's still rocking the mustache, James I'm just chatting to the I'm

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just chatting with the chat room here.

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James is in the chat room and he's got a great mustache from memory.

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He also James, right.

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I believe has listened to every episode cuz when he eventually discovered

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the podcast, he went through the back catalog and listened to all of the old

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episodes, which on the one hand is a huge compliment, but he phenomenal, but he

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did it at like one and a half or double speed, which is quite insulting James, but

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you think he should have listened it to at the original speed

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to put in the real effort.

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That's it?

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Nine and a half out of 10 James.

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Okay.

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Cultural Marxism now.

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Believe it or not.

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I reckon the best article I got on this was from eternity news.

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Strangely curious.

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Yes, really strange.

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So, so it's an article that tries to explain cultural Marxism and it's

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gonna be my starting point and I'll read a bit of this and see how we go

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in the last decade or two cultural Marxism has become something of a

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boo hooray word in Western culture.

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That is it's a term that provokes an almost visceral reaction of either

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discussed or delight denunciation or celebration from one perspective,

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the polarized reaction is puzzling cultural Marxism also known as

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Neo Marxism, libertarian Marxism, existential, Marxism, or Western Marxism.

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Is a well established term in academic circles and has appeared in the titles

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of numerous books and articles that treat it either dispassionately or favorably.

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It seems to refer to a 20th century development in Marxist thought that

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came to view Western culture as a key source of human oppression.

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Otherwise put cultural Marxism.

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Marxism is nothing more than the application of Marxist theory to culture.

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So why the commotion, the short answer is due to its deployment

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by people like Jordan Peterson, cultural Marxism has come to function.

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Speech.

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Why you said that no cultural Marxism has come to function as

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shorthand for left wing ideology.

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I think that's true.

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If you were listening to Holly Hughes and Senator bait, Babel, whatever he

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was, it was definitely just cultural.

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Marxism was shorthand for bloody left wingers.

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For this reason, many on the left side of the contemporary culture wars, not only

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here, cultural Marxism as an accusatory snail world snail word, which it often is,

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but dismiss its validity, others insist that it explains much that is taking

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place in our current cultural moment.

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So what are we to make of all this is cultural Marxism, a misnomer.

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Is it antisemitic conspiracy theory, or is it an accurate way of describing

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a real ideology that is making a very real impact on our world?

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So to answer these questions, we begin with the Italian Marxist philosopher

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and Antonio Gramsci born in CDIA 1891 to a working class family.

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At age 22, he joined the socialist party roast prominence.

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Then in the communist party, after Maza had consolidated his power.

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Graham.

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She was arrested, charged with attempting to undermine the

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Italian state thrown in jail.

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And he was released some eight years later in a very weakened

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state and died shortly afterwards.

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But while he was in prison for those eight years, he wrote a lot and he

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had a lot of time to think, I guess.

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So the prison notebooks, as they were called have come to have a profound

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effect on subsequent generations.

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So while in prison, gramsy turned his mind to the question that haunted

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classical Marxism, why hadn't Marxist predictions worked out in practice.

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Why, for example, hadn't the Russian revolution of 1917 replicated itself

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in other Western European nations, the answer Graham, she believed lay in the

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persistence of capitalist ideas embedded in the institutions of civil society,

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PG the family, the church trade union's education system, all the consensus,

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creating elements of society that are independent of political society.

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So things like the police, the army, the legal system.

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So he said that this required a major rethink of Marx's philosophy.

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See Marx was working on, if you remember dear list, now that you

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gotta look at the it's the economy stupid almost what is the economy?

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How is that structured?

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That is going to determine how the society and its institutions form and grimey

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was saying, well, what we've really gotta do is changed those institutions.

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And then we'll be able to change the way of the means

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of production and the economy.

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So it was, that was the, the theory of, of.

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Graham sheet.

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And essentially people on the right are saying this guy, Graham sheet,

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and this conspiracy of taking over our institutions, our academic world, our

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political class, our, our name, other institutions turning them into left wing.

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Rabel that was this conspiracy recommended by Graham.

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She, as a means to then having got control of the levers of society

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and the society's institutions, see where you're going here, this, then

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at that point, you can then change the means of production if you like.

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So, so that's what people talk about at one level of cultural Marxism is, is

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really gram she's flipping of Marxism.

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It's kind of the opposite in a sense, cuz Marx was saying economy

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drives the institutions gram.

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She was saying, well, that didn't work.

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I've spent eight years in prison thinking about it.

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The reason it didn't work was because the rich and powerful, controlled

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the institutions and they therefore weren't gonna change anything.

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So we need to control those institutions in order to

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change the means of production.

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And I have

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to say, I would think it

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was both you'd think well maybe Paul, but that, that is cultural

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Marxism as understood by many people is an almost gramsy conspiracy

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to take over these institutions.

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Now, does this sound familiar to you at all?

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Does this, does this sound at all?

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Think of a group that wants to take over the institutions of society, maybe

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planting seeds of people who will do the right thing, maybe in seven mountains,

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at all for those listeners that aren't enjoying the video feed.

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Trevor is smiling.

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like this to

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me.

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Well, this, because this is basically the, you know, like it's just

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projection, of course, the, the right.

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Want to tell, tell people how like Holly Hughes wants to tell people how

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terrible it is that the Marxists are taking over their, our schools because

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they want to take over our schools.

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Mm-hmm, that's where you're going.

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Yeah,

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well, well, if they're Christian evangelicals, they

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wanna take over the schools.

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So I, I don't know, I'd have to look more closely, but it seems to me that

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the, the seven mountains mandate where we have to seed people and take control

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of these seven critical factors of society was almost a copy of Graham

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she's inversion of Marxist theory.

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So it was almost a Christian version of cultural Marxism where they you've

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got two different groups recognizing you've gotta control the institutions.

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If you want to control society, the means of production,

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isn't gonna change on its own.

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And for Christians, our moral sort of code, isn't gonna change on its own

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without controlling those institutions.

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Well, yes, the, and, but also the institutions won't

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change if the capital resists.

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This is why, for example, the Christian Church, like the Catholic church is a,

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you know, a vast money empire because, you know, in part they have realized that

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they, they can wield power using money.

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They do not give that away.

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Mm.

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But, but these things set culture.

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So our media and our political class, our education class, the, these

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people set the agenda and the culture.

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So, yeah, I, I think Gramsci is right.

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I think the seven mountains are right.

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It's a, it,

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I'm kind of reminded though here of, I can't remember who said it, but the

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phrase that history has a left bias that the ideas of equality and fairness to,

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you know, can't put a better word on it.

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Tend to come through in the end.

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And they are actively resisted by both the money who don't want to

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see their, their loss of money and the powerful in the institutions who

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don't want to see their loss of power.

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And cuz I'm also kind of reminded like, you know, the list you gave

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there, it's not really surprising that the the people who own media

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companies are also very rich people.

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And guess what, you know, we, we started the episode talking about How, you

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know, the Rupert Murdoch and Locklin Murdoch control a vast empire, which

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is also putting out an and ideology about who to vote for and who is right,

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and who is wrong in, in politics.

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If, if you want an proletariat revolution, you're gonna have to get

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control of these social institutions in order to inform and motivate and

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educate your proletariat to, to revolt.

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So I'll just read a bit more of this article, just so

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and get through some of it.

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So, yep.

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So gramsy believed that marks was sort of back to front.

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Otherwise put culture is not downstream from economics, but

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economics is downstream from culture.

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That's the grimy view.

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The significance of this inversion of classical Marxism is profound.

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What it means is that if you want to change the economic structure of

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society, you must first change the cultural institutions that socialize

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people into believing and behaving.

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According to the dictates of the capitalist system.

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The only way to do this is by cutting the roots of Western

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civilization in particular.

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It's.

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Now this is an article from eternity.

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Remember society in particular, it's Judeo Christian values for these supposedly

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are what provide the capitalist root system in short, unless than until

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Western culture is de Christianized.

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Western society will never be de recapitalized.

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So in the Christian world, and you do see this with different Christian

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commentators, a very big on the cultural Marxism snarly word as much

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as sky and, and and the Australian and that you it's a, it's a common

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word in Christian commentary circles because they see cultural Marxism.

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As replacing the, the Christian backbone of society.

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Yep.

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Okay.

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Yep.

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And I'll just read on a bit how might this be accomplished by an army

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of Marx intellectuals undertaking?

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What was later called the long March through the institutions of power

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that is by gradually colonizing and ultimately controlling all the key

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institutions of civil society as grams, you put it in the new order, socialism

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will triumph by first capturing the culture via infiltration of schools,

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universities, churches, and the media by transforming the consciousness of society.

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So, so the key thing I reckon out of all this so far is that when

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people talk about cultural Marxism, it's actually gramsy Marxism.

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It's actually kind of the opposite of Marx because Marx is all about

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the economy first society second.

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Okay.

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There's a little bit of interplay between the two, but really at this

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point, cultural Marxism insofar as it adopts scree is really already

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taken a long hike from where Marx was.

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I, I think they're both aiming.

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They're, they're both aiming at the, the same, cause they're, there's, they're

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saying that the rich and powerful let's just conflate those two for the moment.

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Want to keep the rest of us poor and profit off our labor and would just

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displace us in the second, if they could.

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And in Marx's terms, the correct solution to that is revolution.

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Like armed revolution.

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And in Grimey's case, in gram Grimey's view, the correct solution to that

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is change the culture so that those people do not have power anymore.

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And I think

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Graham, she, like, I would certainly say that Graham she's plan there is better

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because revolution is usually bloody

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and I'm not.

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Yeah.

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I'm not sure whether Grahams she denies a revolution.

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I'm not sure I'd have to read more.

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It's possible.

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He's saying that you control the institutions in order to

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create, allow the revolution.

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It can't happen without that.

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I'm not sure if he's denying a, still a revolution of sorts.

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I'm not sure.

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Well,

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okay.

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Then, then the, the difference we're talking about is between an armed

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revolution and a, if you'll forgive me for using the term cultural revolution.

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No, no.

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The difference is Marx is saying it's the economy and doesn't really pay attention

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to a takeover of the institutions, Graham.

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She is saying you have to take over the institutions infiltrate.

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I, well, I disagree there because I think marks specifically talks about

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the things like the, the legal system being part of the system of oppression.

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Mm.

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It is, you know, I'm really kind of reminded as well in the time

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of marks the, that parliament was pushed usually by the rich.

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In the UK to enact harsher and harsher penalties against property,

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you know, like theft of property.

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And that's why Australia became a penal colony and that's why

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America became a pen colony.

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And then they realized that actually the Americans had a bit too much and

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they decided to revolt you know, the because though the law was being used,

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enact the will of the rich, the rich happened to also control things like

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the private schooling or the public schools as the, as I'm sure Joe would

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say the, they controlled what was acceptable art and, you know, cartoonists

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like Hogarth who was published in papers were sort of considered barely

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acceptable because they mocked the rich whereas, you know, Turner and, you know,

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can't think of another, with lovely

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little landscape scenes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Something you can, you can, or, you know, portrait artists, you know,

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we're all the rage because well, everyone needs their own portrait done.

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Mm.

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So I, I feel like mark still recognizes those things as being

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driven, like as, as being used as means of oppressant oppression.

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Absolutely.

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He does.

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Where and I,

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where I guess I would agree with your summaries that Graham.

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She thinks they come from the culture in which one exists and marks thinks they

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comes, come from who owns the money.

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That gets to say how things exist.

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Yeah,

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no.

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And I would say they're

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absolutely related.

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No, I don't think they differ on that.

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I just think they say that mark says that Graham, she says marks didn't work.

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The revolution didn't happen.

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Why?

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And it's because because the control of the institutions, so they derive

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in the same way they don't deny.

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I don't think they deny how these things, I think he's

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ignoring the French revolution.

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Who is Grandhi

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where the peasants did actually revolt and managed to kill off a

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large section of the upper class.

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What year was the

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French revolution was?

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Trying to think

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17 somethings.

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Yeah.

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1780

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seems cause he was 1891.

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He was born crampon yeah.

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So, well he's looking at,

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because I, I, because I would also say that, you know, E even as, as

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the thank you, James says 1789.

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Yes.

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E even as the 1917 Russian revolution proved you can have a revolt, all you

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li all you like, and what you do is swap one set of dictators for another, because

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the whole system of Russian society accepted that there are people in power.

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That are given ultimate authority and the rest of you bow down to them.

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Mm.

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And whether, whether it's communism or Marxism Leninism, or whether it's,

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you know, bizarres same process.

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Mm.

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Was the French revolution, a revolution against capitalism or more of a, of

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a French monarchy that had, it was a,

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well, it was a revolution against the French monarchy and the upper class who

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owned all the money or owned all of the estate you know, had the, the apocryphal,

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let them eat cake, attitude and kept the peasantry poor because they, that

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basically, you know, kept them in a perpetual state of needing money, you

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know, needing to work, to produce money

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for the rich.

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What was, was France in an industrialized state at that

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point in the French revolution?

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Were we look that's for homework?

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Let's let's let's, let's put that down for homework, cuz I need to

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get through a little bit more.

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Yeah.

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But I take all your points there.

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Cause that is good point.

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Like if Granty says these revolutions don't work, unless you control the

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institutions, then you could say we, the French revolutions, so good point.

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But grant, she was not alone in thinking along these lines, which

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brings us to the Frankfurt school.

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So the origins of the Frankfurt school can be traced to 1923 Frankfurt,

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Germany, a Marxist think tank and research center modeled after the

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Marx angles Institute in Moscow.

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So the early work was classically Marxist in its direction,

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but this all changed in 1930.

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When max AER took over as director and moved it in a neo-Marxist

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direction, hopefully at this point, everybody's got an idea of

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classical Marxist and neo-Marxist

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traditional old school Marxism as we call

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it.

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Yeah.

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Like Grimsey a kinder was convinced that the major obstacle to human

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liberation was the capitalist ideology embedded in traditional Western culture.

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That fundamentally what was needed, exposing, criticizing, and changing.

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The aim was to produce a new synthesized form of Marxism that would do that job,

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that classical Marxism failed to do radically transform Western culture.

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And so help pav the way for a communist utopia.

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So again, the Frankfurt school is talking about a new synthesized form

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of Marxism that classical Marxism failed to do so, even if you are

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a follower of the Marxist of the Frankfurt school, you kind of admittedly

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deviating away from classical Marxism.

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Yep.

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So 1933 Nazis came to power members of the Frankfurt school

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hightailed it to the United States, ended up in Columbia university.

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Didn't return to Frankfurt till 1951.

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And what did they do?

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At the Frankfurt school, what was their major achievement and their

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major achievement was critical theory.

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Glad we've got to that point, a form of incisive.

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Now this is not critical race theory in any way, quite separate.

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If that's what you are, think.

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It it's it's where

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separate it's where critical race theory comes from.

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This is the thought okay.

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The chief collective enterprise of the Frankfurt schools of the development

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of critical theory, a form of incisive social critique aimed at undermining

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the status quo in the hope of changing society for the better critical

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theory is opposed to traditional theory, which traditional theory is

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all about just explaining society.

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Critical theory is a essentially negative exercise.

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Let me just try and get the best summary of it here.

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I guess I would say critical theory is asking what is the best

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thing that we are looking at?

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Not, not a, you know, so if, if we're looking at society,

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traditional theory says, okay, well, how did that all come about?

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Critical theory says, okay, what of, what of all of that is the best way?

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What, what can we put together out of all of that that makes it the best society

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be a Wikipedia summary,

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izing, the good, you know, the things in our current society or current

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system in order to get to something

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better.

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Mm-hmm . So according to Wikipedia, CRI critical theory is not to be confused with

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critical thinking or critical race theory.

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Critical theory is any approach to social philosophy that focuses on critique

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of society and culture to reveal and challenge power structures underlined

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mm-hmm it argues that social problems stem more from social structures.

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And cultural assumptions then from individuals.

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It argues that ideology is the principle obstacle to human liberation.

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So, so, let me just get back to this article of sort of, I

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feel like what I kind of compatible

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with that.

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Yep.

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Not slightly an emphasis on structures.

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Yep.

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Let me just see here.

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So assessing the work of the URT school is not simple.

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The school was neither uniform nor fixed in its but it did seem to

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have a clear and unwavering object.

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And that was to identify the economic and social structures that had been

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created by industrial capitalism and to critique the ideas that defended

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the disparities of class and race.

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Yeah.

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The general consensus of the Frankfurt school members was that

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Western civilization was effectively responsible for all the manifestations

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of aggression, oppression, racism, slavery, classism, and sexism, that

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marked post-industrial society.

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And this author of this eternity article says that was a simplistic

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and indefensible misrepresentation.

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So anyway, the Frankfurt school critical of Western civilization, Particularly

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concerned with looking at structures and that was their contribution

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to cultural Marxism, if you like.

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So still on this article so there's a bit of a conspiracy theory then there

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are numerous cultural Marxist conspiracy theories, especially surrounding the

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Frank FITT school, some superficially plausible others, patently laughable.

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So, so this is again, gets to where people of the right leaning sort of talk about

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this conspiracy of people to take over the institutions, remembering Graham.

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She was about that and remembering Frankfurt school was about institutions.

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And I think the Frankfurt school had a few European Jews in there as well.

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And yeah, the idea of the Jews controlling the world and that being a bad thing and

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doing it secretly and wanting to oppose that that's all very much sort of right.

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Wing conspiracy, slightly antisemitic sort of stuff.

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That's quite appealing to some fairly ugly elements in society.

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So, so some of this blow back against cultural Marxism will also be held

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in circles of sort of fascist right wing flag, waving people, Paul.

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Who are nationalist and very distrustful of things like a Jewish conspiracy cabal

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who are planning to take over the world.

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So like all these things probably at this stage are sounding very hazy, but

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a lot of it is hazy cuz there's lots of different people involved and, and

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their thoughts are not always homogenous.

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Just like our indigenous brothers.

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But but yeah, so that's all part of this cultural Marxism Sali world

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word is an element of antisemitism against a Jewish conspiracy.

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Take that into account as part of all this.

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Well, the one thing that I think is particularly notable about the, the

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sort of Jewish, the antisemitic element there is that it's directed as a lot

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of antisemitism has been directed in the past at the Jews as a money delete.

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But the, and the convenience there, I think for the defense to use antisemitism

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in the service of conservatism and say republicanism is that it allows them to

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say, oh, don't mind us with our hundred million dollars or our billion dollars.

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You know, it's George Soros over there.

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Who's the real bad guy.

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You know, you think you are angry at, at Mo you know, at billionaires

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like Donald Trump, but wait till you see what these guys are doing.

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and it, you know, surprisingly enough, it never gets directed.

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You know, it, it's never like it, it, that antisemitism isn't directed at

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the people in the same category, like the it's so how to put it, sorry.

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The people that are the, the, the non-Jewish billionaires are now have a way

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of pointing direct, you know, you know, attention away from themselves rather than

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accepting that, like, they, they, they'd be very quick to point out that it's, you

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know, not all billionaires are Jewish, but it's the Jewish billionaire that happens

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to be the one that you need to hate.

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Do you, do you see where I'm coming from?

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Well, you you're saying people are doing that or not.

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I,

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I would say I, I I'm saying it would be a persuasive argument.

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I don't have any evidence that people are actually, if you're

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putting that.

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Okay.

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If you're a Gentile, billionaire, and you're copying a bit of

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heat, you'd say, look over there.

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Jewish billionaire yeah, cultural Marxist, cultural Marxist.

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Yeah, one final thing I'm gonna finish up.

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There's a last little article.

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So is this an issue is cultural Marxism.

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I mean, I've quoted Holly Hughes and this other guy there's an

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article from the conversation.

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Cultural Marxism is a term favored by those on the right, who argue

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that the humanities are hopelessly out of touch with ordinary a.

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The criticism is that radical voices have captured the humanities stifling

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free speech on campuses, but is cultural Marxism actually taking over our

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universities and academic thinking, using a leading academic database.

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I crunch some numbers to find out in so far as it goes beyond

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a fairly broad term of en entity.

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The accuses of cultural Marx is in point to two main protagonists

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Anton, Antonio, Grahams, she and the Frankfurt school of social research,

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two things we just talked about.

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So, if there was a lot of talk about if the, if the conservative anxiety is about

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cultural Marxism reflected reality, we would expect to see academic publications

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on marks Graham, she and the what'd I say, the the Frankfurt school and

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you'd see more of that then libertarian liberal or conservative voices.

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So this person did a quantitative research on the academic database,

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J store J S T O R, where all the academic articles hang out.

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If you pay a fee, you can get to 'em and did a search tracking the frequency

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of names and key ideas in articles published between 1980 and 2019.

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And if you're a patron of this podcast, you can look at the show

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notes and in summary, guess what?

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There's not a huge number of articles about marks or Ramsey or the Frankfurt

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school in comparison to other right wing thinkers and philosophers.

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It's not like they're pumping out material left, right.

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And center.

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So it's a fairy to describe this as a major takeover of academic circles,

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at least based on what papers they're producing from the universities.

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That's an interesting way of analyzing it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's a, a, a clever rebuttal that will appeal to the people that already believed

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that academics are doing the right thing.

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Yes.

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The I was also thinking when you were talking about that

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of an interview by, with a guy called Bo, so who is B E a U S O?

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He is he has won the world debating championship.

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He's coached the Australian and Harvard debating teams.

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He's written a couple of books on debating and basically how we can

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learn from debating, how to kind of argue better and get on better.

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And he was asked about that the sort of cancel culture and, you know, people

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being denied the right to, you know, debate, unpalatable ideas at universities.

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And he said, the one point that he said we should not debate on is

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the relative worth of other people.

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We can argue in debating all we like for the speed limit should be raised

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or lowered or that the immigration.

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Rate in Australia should be raised or lowered or whatever.

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What we can't argue for is it, it, we, what we can't do is have a debate on say

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women are inferior species one again, and

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why can't we have that debate?

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Because anyone on the so to kind of make this example, if a woman is on the

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against team, then the four team part of the four team's argument is that

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that woman on the AGA the against team does not have the right to say that.

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Okay.

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So they're just not necessarily an inferior human being and they

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shouldn't even be on this debating

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team.

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So as a matter of debating principles of organization, don't set up topics.

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Yeah.

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Like that, where there's gonna be a personal reflection on a participant.

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Yeah.

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That makes sense.

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And

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problem is that a lot of the, the point is that a lot of the people that are being

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canceled by cancel culture and all that sort of stuff are people who are arguing

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that Jews, or, you know, foreigners or whoever are not equal people.

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Mm-hmm . And that's why the argument about them being debated on campus is invalid.

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You know, that, that we should not actually be it's.

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Kind of saying,

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you know, if someone kind of his justification for canceling these people,

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that was his reason why we shouldn't treat that the canceling of those

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lectures as a kind of blow to free

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speech.

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Okay.

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Does that mean then we shouldn't have a debate on communism because in the,

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one of the participants is a communist?

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No,

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because you're still unless you, unless your argument is that I'm or

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so I think it really comes down to inherent traits probably.

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So if the, if you can't have a debate about a topic that is

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refers to inherent characteristics, that some people might have

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sure.

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But even, you know, say a debate that might take the topic that

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religion has no basis, sorry.

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Let's like you could debate religion has no basis in modern society.

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You can't debate people who believe in religions are flawed human

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beings.

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Okay.

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This is what he was saying as a, his theories on setting up debates.

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Yeah.

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So, so when, you know, if, if we had, you know, and even then I would

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argue that the problem with a lot of those, you know, the, the right wing

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people that have been canceled, so to speak and are all sort of, you know,

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oh, this is cancel culture gone mad.

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They're not intending to have a valid debate where, where you get given aside

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beforehand, That you don't like randomly basically you get told whether you

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are supporting or against the motion and you have to debate it and then you

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debate it with someone of basically equal caliber and then, you know, an

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adjudicator or an audience decides they are, these, these events are one

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person standing up telling all of those people why they should hate the Jews.

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And there's no, there's, you know, not even a pretense of there being a sort

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of counter example or, you know, let's hear, you know, there there's, you know,

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look, I agree.

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We don't wanna hear bad ideas.

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We don't wanna promote just shit.

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Dunno about his theories of, because there might be someone in the audience

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who's, you know, of that characteristic.

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I dunno about that, but we just don't wanna waste time.

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Like we, if somebody said I'm a flat earth and I wanna give a talk at the university

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of Queensland, like university should say piss off, like not wasting our time.

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We're just not wasting time with you.

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So yeah.

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Hey, let's just try and wrap up Paul.

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So, so yeah, there we go.

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Cultural Marxism, I reckon, after going through that exercise, I feel

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better when I see cultural Marxism in a reference in our society at this point.

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If I see it from a one nation politician in parliament, I

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will think to myself, Hmm.

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Maybe a little bit of antisemitic, sort of nationalism creeping in there.

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Maybe that conspiracy level thinking.

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Might be in there don't know, but just flag it as a possibility.

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When I see Holly Hughes do it, I would think knows nothing about Marx probably

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knows nothing of the differences between classical Marxism and Marx and between

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Neo cultural, Marxism and classical Marxism, just, just doesn't know.

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And I would often see it as some sort of attempt to shut down people

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using a, a snarly word and saying cultural Marxist beware can be

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dismissed without further discussion.

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So, so yeah, feel free to listen at or fight back if you are a classical

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Marxist or a, or, or whatever, but at least be tell me your discussions.

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If you end up having a discussion with somebody about cultural Marxism

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as a result of this podcast at any time, if it happens next week

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or next year, just let me know.

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I'd be quite interested what happens.

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So

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I, I think it's a, like on the one hand, I think you've done a great service

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to people by actually giving a good rounded summary of where these things

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come from and, and how they're made up.

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I'd also encourage listeners to not fall for the, the, the sort

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of not fall for the bullshit.

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Someone, you know, criticizing, you know, left, you know, education

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institutions as being too woke is just, it's just a snail word.

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It's just a, a red flag.

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We, we should, we shouldn't debate them on exactly what they mean by

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woke or exactly how does their, their policy mean their work.

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We should just say no, you're just making that up to have an argument.

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Hmm.

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We should, we should push back on people who say you know, the, their Marxists

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just want to, you know, teach their ideas in schools and say, well, you

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want to teach your ideas in schools.

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What are you a right wing conservative.

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So you want to tell us your, you know, you want to, you want to preach your

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religion, not their religion and, and that, because, you know, it's,

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it's, it's that bullshit problem.

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You know, we, we end up debating whether or not the pro the, their,

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their stupid proposition is valid rather than just at the out, say outset

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saying, no, that's a stupid proposition and we're not gonna debate it.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Well, your listener, give me some feedback on that one.

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If you end up using any of this stuff and a dinner party conversation,

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I would be, I'd be keen to know.

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I'd love that.

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Darn it's cultural Marxism for dinner tonight.

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That's it?

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all right.

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Well, you know what good on you in the chat room.

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There's still five people there.

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So, James, I reckon you're probably one of, 'em not sure, but anyway this whole

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cultural Marxism segment is gonna be chopped out of the audio version and

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will appear in the audio version in a couple of weeks when I'm in Sydney,

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I think is probably what I'll do.

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That's the plan at this stage.

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All right.

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Thanks Paul.

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For your efforts.

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Thanks in the chat room.

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And we'll talk to you next week.

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Bye for now.

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Hey James.

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Have fun season.

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You don't think that the people will rise up, if they don't like something, then

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go and have a, you know, go and stand in front of the anti-vax crowd and tell

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them to go back into their miserable.

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Ho yeah.

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Good luck to you.

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You got an early start tomorrow.

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Oh,

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of course.

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normal start normal, normal 6:00 AM.

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So very

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good.

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All I better.

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I just punish myself for this.

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All right.

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I will run this through an editor and whatever, so.

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All right.

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No worries, Paul.

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Thanks for, thanks for all that chat to you.

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Another time.

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No worries.

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Okay.

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Have

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fun.

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See you soon.

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Bye

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The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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