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Episode 329 - Ukraine Explained ... Again

In this episode, we are joined by Ed who was born in Russia and spent a lot of time in Ukraine.

I referred to the following article:

Hedges: Chronicle of a War Foretold

Chris Hedges

After the fall of the Soviet Union, there was a near universal understanding among political leaders that NATO expansion would be a foolish provocation against Russia. How naive we were to think the military-industrial complex would allow such sanity to prevail.

In a classified diplomatic cable obtained and released by WikiLeaks dated February 1, 2008, written from Moscow, and addressed to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, NATO-European Union Cooperative, National Security Council, Russia Moscow Political Collective, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State, there was an unequivocal understanding that expanding NATO risked an eventual conflict with Russia, especially over Ukraine.

Mentioned in this episode:

Website

Transcript
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Well, hello and welcome, dear listener.

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This is the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast, a little special episode for you.

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Normally this is a podcast where we have a panel and we talk about news and politics

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and sex and religion, all the things that you're not supposed to talk about.

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On this occasion, we're going to talk about the Ukraine.

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And of course, everybody is talking about the Ukraine.

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So that's, uh, we're allowed to do that.

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I, of course, am Trevor, AKA the Iron Fist.

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Uh, with me as always, Joe, the tech guy.

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And, and also, special guest is Ed.

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Welcome aboard, Ed.

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Hi, Trevor.

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Hi, Joe.

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So it's good to have Ed here because I was on the podcast with Cam

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Riley and after that he was getting feedback from different listeners.

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One of whom was Ed, who was writing some emails.

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And turns out Ed, uh, was born in Russia, lived most of his life, uh, early years

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until 25 in the Ukraine slash Russia.

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He'll explain more about that.

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And has been living in Australia down in Melbourne, so he's got a pretty good

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perspective of the Russian Ukrainian border because he lived there, um, until

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about 25 and so he's got family and friends on both sides of the border and

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he's here in Australia been observing what's been going on over there and

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I thought what a good opportunity to have Ed on and just um, tell us stuff

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that we don't know about the Ukraine, about Russia and all the rest of it.

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So.

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So, Ed, without any further ado, why don't you tell us, sort of, just your personal

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background of where you grew up, how long for, and just so people get a genuine

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impression that you actually know a little bit about the area that you grew up in?

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Uh, look, I was born, uh, I was born in Russia, but, uh, Pretty close to

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the border of Ukraine, as I said, so my mom's from, uh, from the place

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which is pretty close to Kharkiv, uh,

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News now.

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Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, that's, you know, north.

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Yep, East, uh, from the Russian side, and my dad's, uh, my dad's family

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are from Taganrog, which is, uh, sort of, uh, pretty close to, uh, okay,

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what do you have there on the map?

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So it's, it's Southeast, uh, sort of right, sea of Azov there, north

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of Crimea, that's, that's, yeah.

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Yeah, that way.

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Both places, uh.

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Um, I checked within 50k's or thereabouts, you know, 60k's off the border.

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So, obviously, we have family on both sides.

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My immediate family now, my mum and dad are in Russia now, but I have cousins,

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second cousins in Ukraine, Karakiv.

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And my wife, who's also Russian Ukrainian, you know, 50 50, uh,

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she's got some And we're in Kiev now, so we're in touch with them.

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But, look, and I always lived in these two places pretty much,

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uh, you know, spending summer.

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When I was a kid, I guess I was more out there than my mom's.

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Relatives and, uh, you know, my grandma, grandpa, and then, uh, I

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was going to school and, you know, to the uni there in the south of

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Russia, so, again, close to Ukraine.

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So, it was always, it was always, uh, you know, during Soviet times, of

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course, we've been thinking in terms of Russia, Ukraine, that much, especially

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both of these Uh, regions, uh, well, fairly Russian speaking, uh, were

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back then and probably are still now.

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Uh, it's not to say that, you know, they're ethically Russians or ethically

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Ukrainian, because sometimes it's kind of hard to tell, you know, as people

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are mixing, and it's more personal feel.

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So if you cross the border from Russia to Ukraine It was like

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someone in Queensland going to northern New South Wales and back.

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Is it just a matter of fact sort of thing?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Look, we would, we would do that all the time.

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Because, you know, during Soviet times, that's, that's

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kind of a tricky bit, I guess.

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But when

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different regions were supplied differently, so, you know, in

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Ukraine, I don't know, a bit of dairy.

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So we would use, you know, we'd go and, you know, shop there if, uh,

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if it felt like it, like it could.

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Yep.

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So you get dairy from the Ukraine and vodka from Russia,

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is that what you're saying?

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Oh, yeah, I think, I think this was pretty, uh, pretty much

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available everywhere, I think.

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Until Until, uh, you know, the end of the Soviet Union, or sort of the

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collapse of the Soviet Union, where pretty much everything disappeared.

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Everywhere, actually.

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And that was, that was a big crisis in, in both countries.

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Uh, and again, you know, I could, I could see that, and I know that

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firsthand, because it probably was a bit worse in Ukraine.

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It's a bit earlier than in France.

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So, I'm just curious, like, we'll get on to the present conflict, you know, in, in

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due course, but just growing up as a young person, In that part of the world, you've

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lived in Australia now for a good time.

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I have a mental image of a pretty desperate place with um, nothing in

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the shops other than the bare basics if you're lucky, and a fairly grim lifestyle.

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Was it grim or not?

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Not true.

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No, it wasn't, it wasn't grim.

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And especially if you don't, if you don't have anything to compare to, uh,

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then, you know, it's just your normal.

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You know, for us, but look, I was a kid, uh, you know, Soviet Union

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collapsed when I was about, which is what, 1981, uh, I was, I 74, so,

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you know, I was, I was in my teens, yes, uh, until then, you know, before

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Perestroika, it was, you know, I was a kid, it was, it was so fun, you know, we

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would go to the countryside, you know,

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as good as, you know, as your childhood can be, I suppose, because, you know, I

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was, Uh, it was looked after, you know, my family was, was great and we would,

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again, all relatives, this, this place where, you know, my mom grew up because

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that was a village basically, and we had relatives in, in neighboring villages,

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but also, you know, in Ukraine, uh, everyone would sort of come together.

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And would your family be just sort of middle class, would you consider them?

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Don't know if, if that, you know, model is applied to, uh, you know, Soviet times.

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So my parents were, uh, You know, I graduated from the university in Kharkiv,

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actually, uh, being sort of engineers and being an engineer in the Soviet

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Union is, uh, is not really, uh, is saying that you're not, well, to do, uh,

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but, uh, More comfortable than average?

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Average, I would say.

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You know, this, the Soviet Union was the country of, you know, working.

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That's, that's where a person on a factory probably was.

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Really?

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Right.

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You know, working all the time, you know, so that was, it was really, um.

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I think, you know, the person on the factory floor would, Oh yeah, absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Right.

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Because they would do all the time.

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So they could do, uh, you know, night shifts.

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They put, uh, depending on what you were doing, you know, look,

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unless you, it's hard to generalize, but you know, that would be, that

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would be a generic, uh, assumption, but you know, if you look at it.

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Yeah, you probably would find a good position, so.

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Yeah, and you were telling me, uh, previously that, um, you ended up doing

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electrical engineering and computers and stuff and your Okay, so, so my,

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my, you know, my university years is, is sort of, uh, where Soviet Union is

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collapsing or collapsed or whatever.

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So that this is, is pretty unstable time, but again, being

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a student, why, why would I care?

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Yep.

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Good time.

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Uh, and so, but yeah, I studied at my home CC.

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Uh, so, you know, I stayed with the family and it was, uh, it was

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okay because I was supportive.

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And, uh, so yeah, electrical, computer engineering, and roundabouts.

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I don't know, there was, there was a moment that I remember.

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Uh, that was, that was actually just as I entered the university.

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That all of a sudden, so this is, say, 1991.

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Uh, you know, Soviet Union is collapsing and we, like The worst, because, you

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know, all these blind curtains going and Metallica is going to be too much school.

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And, uh, that's where I, you know, something clicks in me and I thought,

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you know, that's, that's what I, that's where I want to leave.

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So I started, uh, learning English like crazy.

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Yeah, maybe it doesn't show, but, you know, with the accent and stuff.

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But, you know, it's, uh, set my goal, I guess, back then

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to So back then I thought, oh yeah, I'd go and study in the U.

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S.

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or something and see how it goes, but it turned out, uh, differently.

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But, you know, it just ended up in Australia.

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Yeah.

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And never looked back, actually.

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Yeah.

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Which is Yep.

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And you're living in Melbourne now.

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Yeah, and, uh, and you mentioned before to me that you were part of a rally

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that happened in Melbourne, sort of?

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Yeah, yeah, I went there.

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Sort of part of a Ukrainian expat community?

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It's absolutely, uh, it was organized by a Ukrainian community and, um, And,

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uh, we have a lot of friends from, who are members of the community.

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We, you know, we're not, I can't say I'm a member of the community because I

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never, I never had, you know, Ukrainian passport or anything like that.

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But, uh, you know, we feel That we needed to go as well, uh,

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wanted to go, uh, needed to go.

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I have to say that I, uh, didn't make it to the start of it

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because I had other commitments.

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My wife and my daughter, uh, pretty much, you know, went there from the

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first minutes and, uh, marched from Treasury Gardens to the Fed Square

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and I just joined them at Fed Square.

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Um, sold a lot of friends there and, you know, yeah, um, a lot of people.

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So your family, um, and friends back over there in the Ukraine, what, what

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stories are you hearing or reports are you hearing from them about, you know,

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what's happening on the ground there?

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Is it anything you can share with us that?

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Yeah, look, well, that's, that's what I, uh, that's what I'm here for, I guess.

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Uh, Look, first of all, it's, it's a war, uh, no doubt about it, look, I need to

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pick the right words, I guess, uh, just because, and I'll, I'll get there, I

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guess, you know, from Russian side, from, uh, probably say from Russian side and

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the rest of the world, uh, it appears, uh, the words are different, the terms

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are different, and, you know, people are sort of, uh, watching about how

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they call it, but it is a war, you know.

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In Russia, you're not supposed to say war.

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It's a special operation, and if you are told that people say war, they correct

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it, or, or, or And, um, it's pretty full on, like, you just can't, uh, comprehend,

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you know, I can't comprehend it because, you know, so me, uh, yeah, I left that

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part of the world some time ago, you know, went back a couple of times, but,

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um, still the picture that I have, you know, doesn't, doesn't really really.

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Uh, married to what I see now, and what I see now is street fighting,

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basically, you know, like Stalingrad.

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Uh, so, Kiev, I've been to Kiev, I've actually fell in love with the city,

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it's probably one of my favorite cities.

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Uh, absolutely beautiful and, you know, it's a huge hill and,

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uh, it's 4 million plus, I think, and the hierarchy of it is 1.

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5 or something.

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So big cities and shillings going on there and you can see it.

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And it's not like, you know, these are doctored images or because

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they're just coming through.

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They keep coming through.

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So, you know, street fighting.

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My, uh, uh, my relatives who are in Kharkiv have been living, uh, pretty

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much in a cellar for the past few days.

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Uh, I'm not saying that, you know.

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The whole territory of Hardcabe has been, or you know, street fighting is

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on every street because it's, it's hard to know what's going on, but definitely

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on outskirts and pictures I've seen and then people who recognize them, like

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the University and Saltafka is, uh, is the sort of northeast, I suppose.

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Um, I don't know if this is that well anymore.

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That was a kid when I went there.

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I saw images of, you know, shells exploding.

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Are they running out of food?

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Because I just know here in Australia when we had things with the pandemic or

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flooding here in Brisbane, it doesn't take long before the shelves are empty.

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And I just would have thought it's shaping up as a bit of a siege where they're just

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going to run out of food in these cities.

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We are worried.

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We are here, uh, worried about them running out of food, but I haven't,

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uh, I don't really have, uh, a lot of You know, good information about that.

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I know that three or four days ago when, when it just started, but it

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was not in the CC proper, uh, and this is currently what I'm talking about.

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Uh, my, uh, my aunts, you know, my mom's cousin, uh, she, she said that she went

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to, to the shop and bought, you know, some supplies, some pastes and cereals.

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But I don't really know if they have water now.

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I don't, I know that it's being sort of encircled.

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Uh, and Keefe, I think is.

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From what I heard, it's pretty much rounded up now, so it might

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be, you know, the case where your supplies will start running out,

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but, um, I just don't know how.

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Sorry, Ed.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I know that, that they were safe, uh, my relatives were safe yesterday, because

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they, they responded and said that they were still fighting, and they They were

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intended to survive, uh, well, they will.

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Okay, so let's sort of now move into the sort of build up and the, you

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know, recent history and, and, uh, geopolitics or however we want to call it.

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One thing that I'm curious about is the Donbass region, where according

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to what I've read is a predominantly Russian speaking enclave that seems to be

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quite different to the rest of Ukraine.

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Is that, was that your sense back in the day?

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Uh, not really.

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Uh, okay.

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Going back to Soviet times with England, think about those, um,

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you know, those terms or, or, you know, you can ask that question.

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Uh, later, look, Dawn Bass was, uh, was different in a

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way that it's a mining widget.

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Yeah, so that's, uh, you know, there's a lot of, you know, mining going there.

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You, you passing by, it looks different.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Uh, but you know, is it, so economically was different, I

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guess, because, uh, again, mining is the main, uh, industry there.

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So when the troubles started and, and I am talking about nineties, you

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know, uh, so Just after Soviet Union or end of Soviet Union, probably.

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I'm not a historian or, you know, maybe, maybe enthusiast, maybe sort of, you

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know, failed historian or fake historian.

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So, you know, don't quote me or fact check, I don't know

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exactly, but, you know, 90s.

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Uh, when the problem started, I think Donbass was hit quite, quite badly

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with, you know, with all that because all of a sudden, you know, mining.

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And that's all you had to, uh, to provide.

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So miners were, uh, quite unhappy.

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So going to strikes or trying to, you know, work out something.

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And I guess, I guess unless you have that industry going, uh, no matter

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what you do, uh, you know, there's, there's trouble in the, okay, trouble,

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economic trouble in the region.

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So, you know, this, uh, this.

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Just not enough work and, and, um, you know, that's quite bad.

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So, uh So it was defined as much by its, its work environment and landscape as

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it was by But if you, if you ask about ethically or, or, you know, culturally

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or anything, you don't really know.

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Uh, and, and look, I have a couple of, well, more than a couple of good friends

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here because I don't know when When people started, like, immigration into Australia

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from former Soviet Union was, uh, was going, like, it was a steady stream in

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the 90s and 2000s, I suppose, because, you know, it was Fairly easy to do, I guess,

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if you were educated and wanted, really.

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So we have, we have quite a few friends here who came, uh, or people

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who, say, have Jewish background, so they came a bit earlier, they came a

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bit earlier because they Uh, could do so, you know, using that Jewish, uh,

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background because it was like Soviet Union, yeah, reasons, uh, sort of it.

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Uh, so we had a lot of people from, from that area who came at

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different times and I have a fair, uh, I guess, fair understanding of,

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you know, what's going on there.

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And pretty much every one of them looking at, you know, what's, what happened there.

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Yeah.

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You know, shock and horror and, uh, you know, emotions are pretty high.

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Yep.

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And so when there was the separatist movement for the Donbass region,

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have you got any sense of, um, of what was going on there in terms of

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shelling by the, by the Ukrainian government as they were trying to

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retake this area and this disputed area?

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I think I have a pretty good sense of what was going on there, but,

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uh, I guess probably wouldn't, you know, the first thing that comes to

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mind is not shelling by Ukrainian government, but it's separatists

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themselves were, uh, and I'm, I'm trying not to say anything that I can't.

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But the separatists themselves, the first, uh, you know, people who came

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to power there, or who instigated that, were all, uh, Russians,

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I'm not mistaken, most of them.

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So, it At the time, look, and this is not me sort of, you know, looking back

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with, you know, 2020 historic vision or something, at the time, 2014, uh, when

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Yanukovych was, uh, fighting to stay, and we, together with our Ukrainian

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friends here, were sort of, uh, really waiting for him to go because it was,

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you know, he was quite bad in all accounts, uh, when When it happened,

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we actually, you know, we were all joy.

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We said, Oh, you know, that's, that's great.

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And then when Russia took him, it was a bit of resentment, you know,

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from our side thinking like, this is a signal, uh, that, you know,

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he's going to go and punish them.

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So, so our attitude at the time was like, Ooh, you know, that's.

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That's not good because it's, it's, it's almost like Russian encouragement.

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Okay, so when Yanukovych lost to Poroshenko, he went to

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Russia and sort of exiled?

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No, no, but he didn't lose, he was, uh, he was ousted and, and I mean, this was

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before election or anything, he was, uh, so that was, that was a revolution.

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And look, I know that you probably want to raise that point or you've mentioned that.

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American involvement in that, but I'm not even, I'm not even talking about that.

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I'm just talking about our attitude and vision.

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And, and look, when I say, you know, these, uh, Donbass and, and two

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separatist regions there, uh, the, the movement, separatist movement there, or

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the action started after the Crimea was

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But let's leave it there for now, um, because that was a signal like,

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Oh, you know, if, if Crimea can do this, you know, so maybe that

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can happen in some other regions.

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So the guy, uh, at the time it was, you know, a lot of confusion who's doing what.

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But.

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You know, a few years passed and, and people, uh, well, a few people who were

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leading, uh, forces there died or killed or whatever in fights, but, uh, the guy

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who started it pretty much by his own admission, uh, uh, the guy called, uh,

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Gorkin or, uh, Strelkov is his name.

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And this is a guy who started the separatist movement in the Donbass.

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By his account, his interview to the, uh, to the newspaper later, uh, in Russia, he

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said that, you know what, I, I pulled the trigger because, you know, I, that his,

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his unit crossed the border from Russia to, uh, uh, Donetsk region, I guess.

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And they started, uh, you know, The action.

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So, uh, and I guess I can close, uh, so there is a translation and so, uh,

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So he, he was a Russian national who Russian national, Igor Strelkov.

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He's, he's the guy, I mean, this is, this is sort of in perspective.

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He's the guy who's, uh, he's arrested as a warrant, uh, you know,

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interpol for, for the Floyd MH17.

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That's, that's the guy who's associated with John Travolta.

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Right.

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Because he was, he was controlling the area then.

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Okay, so there's a question mark, are you saying there's sort of a question

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mark as to how much of this was Um, driven by the local population wanting

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to separate from the rest of Ukraine, as opposed to, uh, the Russian influence,

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maybe being an important factor.

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Well, to say the least, there's no question mark, or wasn't a question

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mark for me back then, probably wasn't a question mark for me, uh,

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now it was instigated by Russia.

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Uh, reasons behind that, you know, not talking about it,

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but just facts, you know.

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And look, there's probably a lot of factors playing, like, you know, people

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who weren't necessarily important or who were, you know, sort of looking

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for opportunity, uh, existed there.

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Let me put it this way.

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If you, in any country, especially, or any region, I guess, especially

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where things are not stable, there probably would be a decent percentage

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of the population separated.

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Yep, there's always a mixture.

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It's just hard to know what the percentages are.

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Western Australia, let me put it this way.

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You remember a few years ago, Western Australia said, you

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know, we want to separate.

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Last week they'd do it, yeah.

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Well, he's, he's amazing that guy, I mean, yep.

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Yep, you're right.

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In every population there will be a separatist element.

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Um, and if you, if you organize it, uh, well, I'm not saying it's a, you

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know, it's something that's easy to do or it's something that's, you know,

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clear cut, but if you organize it, you, you have a chance to succeed.

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And, and these guys, uh, again, they were telling us how,

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like, there was no shame in it.

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They were telling, uh, you know, to press that, you know, what

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we were expecting to maybe.

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Uh, to see Russia incorporating these regions, you know, like they did with

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Crimea, but Russia didn't, uh, do this, sort of sending mixed signals

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or something, so maybe there's a bit of misinterpretation, whether,

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you know, support will come or not.

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So, um.

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Okay, well that's a picture of the Donbass, that's, that's,

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you know, what I'm wanting.

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By the way, dear listener, I mean, Ed's giving, of course, Uh, his own personal

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knowledge of, of things and, um, he hasn't been running around conducting

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polls and, you know, in a sense, uh, the plural of anecdote is not data, I think,

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is the story or something like that.

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I mean, so, you know, take all this with, um, as it is and, Um, it's just an

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interesting perspective that we're getting from somebody who's sort of been in the

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area and knows people and there could be other people with different opinions.

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And look, there are people of different opinions and I guarantee

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that, but it's also, like, you really have to, uh, look at it, you

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really need to decide for yourself.

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Because, uh, well, like, you know, we were chatting with Cam and Cam

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said, Oh, you know, I have people who are of different opinions.

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Well, yeah, there are people who really love Trump.

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There are people who love Tony Abbott.

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Yes, yeah, there's all sorts.

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So, so just the other, um, so that's interesting picture of the Donbass.

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Um, the other sort of, um, cultural element is, is the sort of talk of, of

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neo Nazi element in, In the Ukrainian, sort of, military, sort of, as part

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of that, that coup, that maybe, or maybe not, was engineered by the USA,

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um, relying on some sort of Neo Nazi elements, is, is Neo Nazism something

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genuine in the Ukraine that you or your friends or would be aware of or would

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think it's Me or my friends, uh, if I rely on my personal experience, my

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friends, or talking to people and people I trust really, uh, then Absolutely not.

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I mean, I'm sure there are there, like in any, uh, country, uh, but

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do they control the, uh, government?

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Do they control the parliament?

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Right.

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I'd say no, I just, I just don't see any evidence.

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So you would have seen reports about sort of neo Nazi elements, and as

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you were reading it, we, in your mind, are you thinking, That's an

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overblown statement that, that seems exaggeration when you, when you read.

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I, the problem is that most of the, most of the reports that I was reading at

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the time, or, you know, really need to see the source where it's coming from.

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Um, a a lot of that and, you know, I do do read, uh, rational.

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I can't read Ukrainian, but, uh, not that good at it, I guess, uh, but

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everything you read in Russian, or a lot of that, is, uh, you need to take,

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uh, with a grain of salt because, and that's something I probably would want

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to, you know, spend a bit of time on, you know, propaganda and, and the way,

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uh, things are spent is, uh, it's kind of important because, you know, they, um, you

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This is Russia and Ukraine, uh, are like, you know, Soviet Union.

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Pretty much everyone.

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We were growing up, uh, with my, uh, both of my grandparents were, uh, you

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know, fighting the second World War.

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And, uh, so we were, when we were growing up, fascism, uh, or Nazis and

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which was used interchangeably, uh, was.

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It's like the worst thing that you can possibly imagine, yeah, so we've grown

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up with this and and the term is being a little, you know, being abused now a lot,

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uh, you know, and, and so in Russian, um, media quite often this is a convenient

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way to say, oh, you know, they're fascists because they are, uh, you know,

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nationalistic and Which is, which is not always the same event, but yeah, but look.

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Um, as I said, I don't believe, uh, that, you know, right wing

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sort of ultra conservative sort of Nazi element, uh, whatever,

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fascist, is prevalent or noticeable.

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Comparing to Russia, for example, because in Russia you go and I can

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name you, and I probably know better, I can name you politicians who are

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still there, you know, winning parties, and they would make statements that,

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uh, you know, you've probably put you in jail in, in, in, in some places.

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So it's, it's really, it's really, uh, hard to, you know, take it and,

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and just go with it and, uh, and say, oh, you've messed this up, probably.

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I think it's Yeah, there's definitely a lot of hate, uh, in, in general

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now, especially, uh, but look, as I say, I probably would want to

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talk a little bit about propaganda, uh, when, when we get there.

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Or, if we can sign that.

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We're there, we're there now.

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Let's do it.

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It's just, uh, cause, cause this is something like you probably, you probably

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don't, um, know that well, unless you can tap in, unless you, unless you

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know, uh, unless you can read Russian.

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Okay, so, um,

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when, I don't know where to start, but look, the propaganda, the propaganda

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machine that's, that's, that's working probably in both directions and, and

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I guess, you know, it's propaganda, propaganda in, in the US but in

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Russian, if you, if you, there's just, you know, watch Russian tv.

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There's just a lot going on there and, and it's always.

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It's always directed at, you know, at trying to, uh, portray, you know,

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specifically Ukrainians as fascists or, you know, sort of close to that.

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And, and look, what I've done, I've just, um, I sent you a couple of links, but,

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but look, this is for people who, we can't play them now, but just go to YouTube

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and, and, uh, type something like, uh, kids, uh, singing about Putin or something

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like this, because, because it's just.

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It is penetrating the society in such a way that, you know, it's hard to

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imagine we probably would think about, you know, North Korea, uh, but, you

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know, kids would come and dress, you know, in uniforms being, I don't know,

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eight year olds or whatever, uh, sitting like, um, Uncle Vova, if you, uh, you

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know, if you, if you call us to the last battle, you know, we will die for you.

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Right, okay, yes.

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And, and this is not like, you know, some of that may be staged, but I

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also have some, you know, like school.

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Concerts and so many people would say, Oh, you know, continue great.

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And so this is like, uh, this is Soviet level of.

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So Russia has been running a Soviet style, um, propaganda campaign.

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One of the things, for example, I read ages ago, I think was in

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relation to Crimea when they.

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I did polls of the population and it seemed quite conclusive that most of the

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people in the Crimea wanted to be in the Russian sphere and an argument I heard

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was that they had been subjected to a lot of propaganda on their television.

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Oh right, look, this is actually an interesting point because, uh, you know,

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if we talk about Crimea and, and how, what happened there, and again, this is, uh.

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At the time, you know, it wasn't, um, admissive, but then after a couple of

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years or maybe a bit more, or maybe more, uh, you know, Putin admissive, because,

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because they were saying, uh, there were, there were no Russian troops there

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at the time, uh, they were just, you know, polite people and this is a term,

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you know, coin term, which was on, you know, shirts and some, like, you know,

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polite people who were, Um, you know, volunteers who came there to, whatever,

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fight for, um, for their brothers.

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And then they admitted, yeah, yeah, they were Russian troops, but,

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you know, we had to do something.

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So, and, and, you know, then reports that, yeah, it was planned, uh, you

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know, in a way, and works out perfectly.

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Because when they stepped in and sort of took control.

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You know, the region, and they organized referendum, um, you know, you can't

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take the results of this referendum, uh, for face value, even if, it's, it's a

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bit like, you know, doing a scientific experiment, but, but your, you know,

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your, your tools are tamed, or, you know, contaminated, and then the results,

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you can't really trust them, maybe.

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Because of the propaganda?

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Because of the, because of the propaganda, because of the presence.

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Oh, because of the presence and the way, the way, uh, you know, elections are run,

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uh, and, uh, you know, that was, there was no one at the time was, was like, you

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know, with presence of troops or, or sort of, uh, insistive recommendations of vote

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a certain way, plus propaganda as well.

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Okay.

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If so, we have Crimea.

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People probably would want to, uh, you know, leave Ukraine and join Russia.

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I mean, maybe the majority of the population wants to do it, but is there

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any sort of law how to do it properly?

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That's the thing, like, you know, I don't know if there is a precedent

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where part of the country went straight from one country to another.

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Uh, I know of a few cases when part of the country decided to separate and sometimes

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peacefully, sometimes You know, through, through some, you know, force or whatever,

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or a war, but I don't really remember in the modern history, uh, when, you

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know, something like that would happen, and it happened pretty quickly and, uh,

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you know, was declared done deal, you know, we, we have, so, uh, does it mean

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people didn't want to, oh, they probably, a fair amount of them probably would

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want to, uh, but, You know, is it legal?

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Can we take it?

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Not really.

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And look, there's also coming back.

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This is what we thought among ourselves.

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In 1994, if I'm not mistaken, when there was so called Budapest Memorandum,

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Budapest Memorandum, I think it's called, somewhere, where basically after the

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Soviet Union collapsed, Uh, Russia and Ukraine with US and the UK, uh, sat

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together and, uh, coined the, uh, and the agreement that Russia would take all

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the stockpile of nuclear weapons from Ukraine and in exchange guaranteeing, uh,

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borders in that, uh, borders that were present in that particular moment, 1994.

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Ukraine was, you know, Ukraine and everything.

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Technically, you know, Russia said, all right, we don't, we don't want

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to revise the borders or raise it because, you know, that's the agreement.

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Yeah, well, give us your nuclear weapons and we guarantee to keep

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your borders where they are.

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Yeah, I'm sure there were maybe some other clauses, but that was, that was it.

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And of course, uh, the story that I remember, because, you know, it says,

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oh, you know, this is, uh, it's plain and simple, you know, there's agreement,

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but of course, if you really want to, you can find a pretext, and like, like

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always, so I think, if I'm not mistaken, again, don't quote me on But I think

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Russia, you know, official Russia said back then that, uh, you know, because

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Yanukovych was ousted, uh, legally, you know, there's a coup and stuff, uh, it's

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all broken, you know, not valid anymore.

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So we're not, you know, we're not obliged to, to follow, you know, any of that.

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And I don't know, I, I, I look at this and I say, eh, you know.

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The Ukraine story is full of broken promises of one sort or

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another with NATO and other deals.

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Yeah.

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And we are talking about, you know, me, uh, telling you what I think so

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that, you know, that's why I'm here.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So, um, also the coup, um, amongst Ukrainians that you know, would, would

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there be the belief or acceptance that the US played a major part in that?

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Or would, or would they say that was not the case?

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Like, what's the feeling?

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I don't know.

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I haven't heard a lot of people, uh, saying, oh, you know, US, uh, Well,

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definitely, you know, from Russian side, there's people who support sort

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of official Russian sort of, they would say, oh yeah, definitely, yeah.

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It's all America, like, there's been America all this time, but, um, I don't

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really know, uh, for sure, I'm not going to argue, but I'm just going to ask I

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guess the question of, even if it was, well, I, I don't know what I'm saying.

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I'm just, I guess, I guess I want to put it this way, you know, Ukraine,

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uh, was trying to break away from Soviet Union and Russia, but has

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been trying for quite a while.

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And I mean, after 1991, it appeared that, okay, there was understanding,

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but we know that, you know, Russia never really let it go, uh, not only Ukraine, I

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mean, other republics and other peoples.

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And so there was, you know, there was one attempt and then in 2004, Yushenko, which

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was clearly pro Western, was trumped, you know, it was, uh, competing with

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Yanukovych, actually, uh, for, you know, for presidency, and Yushenko was poisoned,

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and then, you know, before the election results were announced, it Because it

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looks like, you know, Russian war battles was a bit too much, which is a fun fact,

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I guess, you know, Putin called and, uh, congratulated Yanukovych a bit too soon.

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So, you know, that sort of thing.

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Just send the signal, I guess, uh, and again, this is my, you know,

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pedestrian level, I guess, um, signal to Ukraine that, you know,

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it's really hard to break away.

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Is it, is it really, um, strange, I guess, or, or should we really,

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uh, you know, wonder if, if Ukraine, if they really wanted to, you know,

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would ask help for someone to, you know, to assist me or to have some,

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or to have some support in that?

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I don't really know, but So you could see, you could see or sense some fairly

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obvious Russian And again, it wasn't denied, uh, but it was, it was, it

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was not a military intervention or anything, but it was, it was like, you

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know, Rushwood sent consultants to, you know, organize, uh, elections and stuff.

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That was a, that was a documentary on BBC, if I'm not mistaken, Doug was,

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uh, was showing in Australia, but that was at the time, I think, at the time.

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Okay.

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Because you're a, you're a fan of the, of Cam Reilly's various podcasts.

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So you'd be quite used to his, his repetitive line of US involvement

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in countries around the world.

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So, so having listened to that, you'd be highly attuned, I would have

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thought, to looking for US involvement.

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What, what Cam's doing?

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And I mean, and this is, it's almost like his mission, but He's trying to

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counterbalance, and I mean, you know, I'm on many feats, so I would argue

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with Cam, uh, you know, personally, or in the email, uh, well, I haven't had a

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chance to do it personally, maybe, um, because now he maybe identifies me, uh,

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would listen to me, or whatever, um, his mission is to counterbalance the

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insane amount of, uh, BS I don't know.

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Do we have kids, uh, watching this?

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You can go ahead and language warning, dear listener.

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There might, might be some Yeah, kids, if you listen, uh, to this,

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then you probably want to tell your parents they're letting you down.

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Um, uh, so yeah, an insane amount of bullshit that's going on in the world.

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I mean, America is an empire and they do a lot of bad stuff.

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And, and of course, you know, Russians would say, well,

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you know, Americans do that.

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So, you know, so, so can we.

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So it's almost like Cam's mission and, you know, Ray is,

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I guess we shouldn't forget Ray.

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So you counterbalance that.

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Yep.

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And, uh, and, yeah, and you're fully aware of that, and you've seen all the

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various examples, yet when you look at the coup, um, and, and knowing how it's

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occurred elsewhere quite often, you don't, you haven't yourself necessarily

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looked at the coup With conviction of U.

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S.

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involvement, is that what you're saying?

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You know, U.

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S.

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involvement versus Russian involvement, I mean, you know, it's Both of them.

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Yeah, but I mean, do we, do we need to choose, or do we, we've had to choose.

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Um No, but just, it's really just whether we think it's occurred, is the question.

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Look, I, I don't really know.

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I mean, I, I don't have enough evidence.

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I, I'm not going to speculate.

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I think that, yeah, it could, could have been.

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Uh, could have been, but also, I didn't have a sense, like, from, again,

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from my friends, from people here, Yanukovych was genuinely, uh, bad.

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And I mean, had it been someone else, you know, a bit less corrupt, a bit

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less, you know, in your face corrupt.

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And, and, you know, arrogant and, and really, you know, sort of

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coming across as, uh, uneducated, really rough, you know, not fit.

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Uh, it would have been a different argument, but I know a lot of people

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were genuinely trying to get rid of him.

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Okay, so maybe because people hated him so much, they didn't

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really care how it was done.

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Exactly.

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So, uh, you know, that's, that's.

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That's a point that we can't ignore.

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I mean, this is, this is really, uh, you know, important point.

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It's a bit like with Trump, where people would, you know, would have

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wanted some awful endings for him no matter what, just because of who he was.

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So, yeah, um, yeah, okay, I get that.

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So, um, and then, uh, Zelensky is, uh, the current president, who Um, former

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comedian and television star, and now, um, hugely popular, it seems, both within

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Ukraine and around the world, because, uh, he's not running and hiding, he's, or

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if he is, he's got a really good, um, PR team that's painting a different picture.

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So he, he, he, he seems to be genuinely doing.

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The right thing at this critical time and, uh, This is, this might be his,

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uh, you know, his mission and he might turn out to be the, the, uh, true,

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you know, hero, uh, of the story.

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Because leading up to this, you thought he was a bit of a dud?

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Is that, what do you, uh, Yeah, I'd say so.

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And it's only because, you know, he's not a, uh, he's not a politician.

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He's, uh, basically a comedian, I guess.

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Not saying he's a bad person or something, but, you know, uh, But I

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think the impression was certain for me that he's, uh, he would be an easy

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opponent for, uh, you know, Russia, for Putin to go and, you know, just

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go over and do whatever they want.

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And, uh, but then, look, he is genuinely, uh, leading the resistance

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now by all accounts and, and people.

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I'm surprised, uh, people love him.

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I like him.

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I mean, he is, uh, he's risky, also, I suppose.

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Yep.

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Yes, I mean if he's captured or whatever, who knows what could happen to him.

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So, it's precarious for him.

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But he is, he is what you expect from president.

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He's, uh, You know, he's a bit like what, you know, Belgium, when Germans attack.

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Yep.

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He's certainly got an incredible life story.

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Actually, for those who haven't seen it, um, I think I've got it here.

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Have you seen the The other thing, dear listener, is he won the Ukrainian

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version of Dancing with the Stars?

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Have you seen that at all, Ed?

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Uh, no, I haven't, no.

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I heard about it, but no, I haven't.

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With a bit of luck, I'll just play a little bit of clip here if I can.

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Hopefully this will show up.

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Hang on.

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It's an incredible life.

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That guy's running from He's a lawyer as well!

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So, um, lawyer and comedian and I just didn't know enough.

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I didn't know enough about him and I, uh, saw like Look, to be

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honest, uh, and yeah, we will return to war because it's important.

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I feel like, you know, we probably don't give enough, uh, you know,

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focus or, you know, it doesn't come across, you know, in all seriousness

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of, you know, what's going on.

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I'm, I am distressed and it's just like, sort of, uh, now I've

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got a bit distracted and, you know, got a bit cheerful, I guess.

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But, but it's not to say that, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty bad.

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But, uh, I'm I say until recent times, we'd probably be more watching the,

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um, what was happening in Russia itself, you know, side with, uh, you

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know, opposition being basically, you know, repressed and all of this.

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And even now, you know, the, uh, opposition leaders isn't yet, well,

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opposition leader, a person who's, uh, the closest to opposition leader,

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I guess, uh, would be, you know, he's in jail and there's another process.

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So I wasn't, I wasn't even thinking that much about Zelensky

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because we were all, uh, you know, seeing how things are internally.

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And, uh, but then of course, no one expected, you know,

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things to change so quickly.

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And now we're talking about escalation and possibly nuclear war and, uh.

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You know, Facebook being suspended in Russia with a mixed success,

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uh, you know, they don't report on casualties, they don't call it a war,

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uh, they allegedly, uh, are going to introduce, uh, capital punishment.

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Or at least, you know, that's what we've said in, you know, maybe not

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officially, but, you know, we've said that we should bring it back.

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Uh, they Capital punishment for what?

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For treason, for, you know, for stuff, just because Russia,

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you know, doesn't have it now.

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So, but, but even still, like, you know, uh, treason now is

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20 years, um, in jail, I think.

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Mm, yep.

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I,

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Ed, I just want to move on to NATO.

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And the discussion about, um, about NATO which seems for a lot of people to be

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a key component to this whole story.

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And I'm going to read a bit, dear listener, from an article

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by a guy called Chris Hedges.

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And Chris Hedges, um, American journalist, um, Presbyterian minister,

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author, television host, former reporter for the New York Times.

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Um, in his career he worked as a freelance war correspondent in Central America.

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And he began working for the New York Times in 1990, and during his

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15 year tenure, Hedges reported from more than 50 countries.

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And served as the Times Middle East Bureau Chief and Balkan Bureau Chief, um,

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during the wars in the former Yugoslavia.

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He's currently running a TV show on, on Russia Today, or RT, so

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put all, put all that together.

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Cause I mentioned to Joe I was going to read, um, about this guy and he said,

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well he'll No conflict there, I mean, poking a bit the fact that he has a

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show on Russia Today, but when you add in his career with the New York Times,

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it's an interesting mix for a guy.

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So, I think he's got some experience and I've read other stuff that

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he's done and I, I do think he's got something to add here.

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So, bear with me, uh, dear listener, while I read this article, or a fair

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chunk of it, it's probably going to take me about four or five minutes, and then

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Ed and I can talk about, about that, because it seems to get to the crux of.

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Of one reason why the conflict has started, and maybe if

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there is to be an exit out of this, um, one possible way out.

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So, alright, so here's an article entitled, Chronicle of

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a War Foretold, by Chris Hedges.

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After the fall of the Soviet Union, there was near universal

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understanding among political leaders that NATO expansion would be a

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foolish provocation against Russia.

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I was in Eastern Europe in 1989 reporting on the revolutions that overthrew the

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ossified communist dictatorships that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

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It was a time of hope.

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nato, with the breakup of the savior empire, became obsolete.

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President Mikhail Gorbachev reached out to Washington and Europe to build a new

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security pact that would include Russia.

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Secretary of State Jim Baker, in the Reagan administration, along with the West

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German Foreign Minister, Hans Dietrich Genscher, assured the Soviet leader

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that if Germany was unified, NATO would not be extended beyond the new borders.

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The commitment was not to expand NATO.

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Sorry, the commitment not to expand NATO, also made by Great Britain and France,

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appeared to herald a new global order.

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There was a near universal understanding among diplomats and political leaders

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at the time that any attempt to expand NATO was foolish, an unwarranted

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provocation against Russia that would obliterate the ties and bonds that happily

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emerged at the end of the Cold War.

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How naive we were.

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The war industry did not intend to shrink.

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It's power, or it's profits, it set out almost immediately to recruit

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the former communist bloc countries in the European Union and NATO.

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Countries that joined NATO, which now include Poland, Hungary, the

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Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia,

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Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, and North Macedonia, were forced

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to reconfigure their militaries, often through hefty loans, to become

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compatible with NATO military hardware.

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The expansion of NATO swiftly became a multi billion dollar

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bonanza for the corporations that had profited from the Cold War.

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Poland, for example, just agreed to spend six billion dollars on M1 Abrams

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tanks and other US military equipment.

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If Russia would not acquiesce to again being the enemy, then Russia would

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be pressured into becoming the enemy.

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And here we are.

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The consequences of pushing NATO up to the borders with Russia.

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There is now a NATO missile base in Poland, 100 miles from the Russian border.

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We're well known to policy makers, yet they did it anyway.

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It made no geopolitical sense, but it made commercial sense.

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War after all is a business.

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In a classified diplomatic cable, obtained and released by WikiLeaks, dated 1st

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of February 2008, written from Moscow, I think this is the Moscow Embassy, U.

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S.

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Embassy, addressed to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, NATO European Union Cooperative,

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National Security Council, Russia, Moscow, Political Collective, Secretary

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of Defence and Secretary of State.

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There was an unequivocal understanding that expanding NATO

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risked an eventual conflict with Russia, especially over Ukraine.

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The beauty of these things, dear listeners, is you can

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Google it and you can find it.

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I'll send you the link in the show notes.

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But, um, you can actually find the WikiLeaks document, the actual cable

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that this refers to, and Chris Hedges summarizes what that cable said.

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Not only does Russia perceive encirclement by NATO and efforts to

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undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable

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and uncontrolled consequences, which would seriously affect Russian

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security interests, the cable reads.

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Quote, Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the

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strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic

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Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving

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violence, or at worst, civil war.

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In that eventually Russia would have to decide whether to intervene, a decision

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Russia does not want to have to face.

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Dmitry Trenin, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, expressed

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concern that Ukraine was, in the long term, the most potentially destabilizing

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factor in US Russian relations.

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Given the level of emotion, um, and neuralgia triggered by

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its quest for NATO membership.

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Because membership remained divisive in Ukrainian domestic politics, it created

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an opening for Russian intervention.

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Trenin expressed concern that elements within the Russian establishment would

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be encouraged to meddle, stimulating US overt encouragement of opposing political

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forces, and leaving the US and Russia in a classic confrontational posture.

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Proved to be, um, very close to the mark, really.

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Um, The Obama administration, not wanting to further inflame tensions with

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Russia, blocked arms sales to Kiev, but this act of prudence was abandoned by

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the Trump and Biden administrations.

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Weapons from the US and Great Britain are pouring into Ukraine, part of the 1.

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5 billion in promised military aid.

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Um, uh, let me see what else he says here.

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All of us who reported from Eastern Europe in 1989 knew the consequences

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of provoking Russia, and yet few have raised their voices to halt the madness.

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Um, one little bit here.

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Once NATO expanded into Eastern Europe, the Clinton administration promised

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Moscow that NATO combat troops would not be stationed in Eastern Europe.

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The defining issue of the 1997 agreement.

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That promise again turned out to be a lie.

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Um, he says, uh, Chris Hedges, that in 2014 the US backed a coup against the

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Ukrainian president, uh, Yanukovych, who sought to build an economic alliance with

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Russia rather than the European Union.

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Um, of course, once integrated into the European Union, as seen

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in the rest of Eastern Europe, the next step is integration into NATO.

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Russia, spooked by the coup, alarmed at the overtures by the EU

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and NATO, then annexed Crimea and the death spiral that leads us to

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the conflict currently underway in the Ukraine became unstoppable.

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So, Ed, what do you think of that in terms of NATO encircling, coming

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right up to the border of Russia?

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How does that sit with you and your friends?

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Probably, yeah, analysing all this, uh, and really development

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is, is, uh, it's not an easy task.

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I mean, you know,

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majoring in geopolitics and stuff, look, uh, from my perspective

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and from what I remember.

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I don't know always what's happening on the background, but, uh, if history

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doesn't start in 2008, obviously, and, and yeah, um, so it just says, you know,

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1988 already was obvious, but it was obvious to me, um, you know, NATO and

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Russia were cooperating, and I think when, you know, war on terror started,

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it was a genuine impression that, you know, it was It was a cooperation.

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So it didn't feel like it was, uh, you know, escalating and, and, uh,

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unavoidable and that, you know, Russia would all, it didn't feel, put it in

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plain words, that Russia and the U.

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S.

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NATO are, you know, historic friends, traditional, sorry, historic enemies,

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you know, traditional enemies, and it will continue and will continue forever.

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Uh.

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I didn't feel that.

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Maybe I was foolish.

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I don't know.

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But again, I'm looking at the countries who, you know, joined

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NATO, uh, different stages, three waves or whatever, um, coming out

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of Soviet Union and, uh, you know, being in the relationship with Russia.

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Uh, I guess Baltic States would probably, uh, do it first then for good reason,

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because they probably didn't feel secure, um, and, you know, that was,

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if you are a relatively small country.

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Uh, next to the neighbor who is best of times unpredictable, you know,

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NATO is probably the assurance.

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And that's, you know, I can understand why it might happen.

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So I guess the question is whether these small countries did want to,

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okay, no disrespect to it, sorry.

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Um, but if former republics or former countries of, uh, you know, Soviet

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bloc wants it to get away from Russia as soon as possible and join NATO.

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And, uh Look, if you remember 2008 and, uh, Russia stepping in to

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Georgia, you know, what followed because that was another war.

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So, we'll send a message like, you know, what if you, if you're not in NATO now,

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uh, or you're thinking about it, you know, maybe that's time to join us.

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Macedonia probably would say, you know, what?

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Yep.

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So, from the point of view of, of self interest of those countries.

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It makes sense that they would say, we want to be part of NATO,

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ASAP, and then from the point of, sort of, world stability.

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It also makes sense to say, you know what, we really should have a buffer

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zone between NATO and, and . There should be analysts, you know, on both

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sides, uh, and, you know, negotiation and everything should, uh, that's,

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that's what, that's what they're for.

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Yes.

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And, and really there has to be, um, there's a bit of hypocrisy here.

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Where, um, you know, the US, if, if it was encircled, uh, up to its borders,

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um, the way that Russia has been.

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There's no way it would accept it.

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Like, it's not sort of fanciful to say, Oh, Russia's being,

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Russia's being, um, precious here.

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In, in having a problem with NATO right on its border.

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I mean, what's their problem?

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They're sort of Yeah, but having a problem with NATO and, and

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going here's another country.

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Yeah, yeah, of course.

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In, inexcusable.

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Not, so, um, so that doesn't mean the solution is to go to war.

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But I'm just sort of, um, I'm just wanting to point out that, um, what they're doing,

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NATO, in, in, in growing right up to the border of the Russian, the Russian border,

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they know that they, for example, the US would never accept that happening if there

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was, it was flipped around the other way.

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So, um, so they of course would say, well, we're entitled to, um, do this.

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There has to be a recognition that.

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If it happened the other way around, they wouldn't accept it.

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I mean, we've got the Cuban Missile Crisis we had.

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Granada.

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I mean, it's, it's, it's fine.

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It's fine to, uh, look, uh, there is a point in this and it's fine to sit and

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argue about it, but also in the light of what happened right now, I feel

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like it's, you know, maybe it's almost like a moot point, you know, Russia.

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Reacted the way it reacted.

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And, and look, maybe, you know, taking into another direction, I guess, slowly,

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but, uh, I've been thinking and I think I read somewhere or, you know, sort

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of everyone's analyst now, and we have all these, uh, you know, accounts that,

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oh, you know, trying to understand, trying to guess, you know, what

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Putin's thinking, what's his objective.

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And I guess, you know, in the past few years, we're pretty safe to say that He

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doesn't, he doesn't want to lose, um, he obviously wants to stay in power, I

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think that's probably one of the main objectives, and, and there was some

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massive trouble, like, if, if he didn't have troubles in, you know, internally,

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and wasn't threatened, who knows, uh, Donald's reaction, I think a lot of

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that is Is happening because, you know, because of what's happening internally.

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'cause he's, uh, you think in, you think internally he's been under pressure.

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Oh, I'm sure.

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Right.

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Look, uh, I mean I'm of discontent and there's a lot of people, a

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lot of people who li like him, but the corruption and everything

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that's going on and economy is bad.

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I mean, you know, it's.

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Uh, but, but he also has, and again, I'm not taking it lightly, or it's, or trying

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to pick my words here carefully, but he's almost, uh, you know, has this sort of

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messianic vision for himself, you know, saving Russia and restoring, I don't

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know, Russian Empire, Soviet Union, or just, you know, the great Russian world.

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And, uh, and let's look at the end result.

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I mean, right now, what's the way out for him?

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Or is it, is it likely that his objectives are going to be achieved?

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And I mean, frankly, no one did more for expansion of NATO in

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the recent years than, uh, Russia themselves, you know, and Putin.

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Because Sending the message and sort of escalating it probably accelerates

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that process and, and now look.

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Can you imagine now Ukraine ever, uh, turning around and saying,

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Oh, you know, we'll reconsider and maybe, you know, be good friends

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with Russia or partners or whatever.

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I can't, I can't see it.

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Can you, can you see a way out for, you know, for Putin to be accepted

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as, uh, you know, as equal in, uh, in any G20, G9 or G8 or whatever, G7?

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I can't, I just can't see it.

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Like, like, he, reputation for himself, for the country, as

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a, as a player, is, is damaged.

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So, whatever, whatever happened in the past that was leading to this

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point, decisions were made and I'd say, you know, I'm looking at this

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and I'm not liking what I see.

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And uh, so that's why, you know, sometimes things are, you know, it's

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very, it's very seldom when things are black and white, yeah, it's, it's

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usually a degree of gray, but you know.

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Today, for the past, you know, three or four days, it's probably

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as close to black and white as it gets, uh, in some respect, you know.

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It's just, we don't need to question, uh, you know, who's We don't need to question

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whether it's a war and whether It's, it's, um, morally reprehensible or not to do it.

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Of course it is.

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Um, but it's, it's also, it's also though worth, it's also worth knowing the

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buildup of these things and questioning whether, whether there might have been

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a different outcome if different things had happened differently in the past.

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To me personally now, it's You know, the subject is a bit raw to, you know,

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to talk about it calmly, if you like.

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It's a bit like, uh, you know, I read, uh, yeah, because in a, in a sense

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it feels like it's sort of being an apologist for Putin to suggest that

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this NATO thing is almost like that.

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It's, yes, it's a bit, you know, put it in this way.

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It's just, uh, stuff that I read.

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I say, uh, you go to the cemetery, which is a fresh cemetery, and,

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and this is sadness and you know, because this is just.

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You can, you can feel grief and, uh, sorrow, but you go to a cemetery

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which is 400 years old, and this is history, and you can reflect on things

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and maybe, you know, look at it from a completely different perspective.

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So, uh, I'm sure we are talking about, uh, well, even Napoleon now, and we balance

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You know, uh, so goods and bads, of goods, and look, me being Russian, you know, we

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were growing up with Napoleon being bad, but, you know, it's not true as people

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speak, there's a lot of propaganda there.

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Uh, and of course, you know, we're talking about Julius Caesar, and,

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you know, it's completely different.

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But, you know, but we can't really, uh, reflect on, you know, Putin

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now and try to find silver lining.

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I feel, you know, to me personally, that's really, really hard to do.

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Yes.

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And so all I can say now, and this is, you know, he's a criminal now, he's, he is a

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genuine criminal, you know, war criminal, and I, I don't see any way out for him.

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Yes.

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It might be the thing that brings about a peace at some point though,

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is if there is some statement that Ukraine won't join NATO or something

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as a face saving thing, as a reason.

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Well, I guess, I guess the first, first have to, you know, stop shelling and

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maybe cease and talk because, again, the, uh, the peace talks that were

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announced and, uh, wasn't yesterday or today, I don't understand anymore.

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It's like, you know, it's been, it's been kind of hard to keep track of time.

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Uh, they sent from Russian side, the guy who went there looked like

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wasn't authorized to do anything.

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Uh, you know, even before.

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Started, it was a signal that's not, they're not serious about

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peace talks when they're shelling right now, when they're accelerating

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with their bombings and stuff.

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Yeah, I think, yeah, think, uh, the, and, and look, this are talks about

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whether he's mad or, you know, deranged or whatever, different degrees.

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Different degrees of, you know, madness.

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Yeah, let's, let's talk about this, uh, madness and derangement sort of allegation

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and crazy because he gave a speech, which was, which was quite lengthy,

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I think went for over an hour or so.

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And on the podcast with, um, with Ray and Cam, we were talking about it and we

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were reading the trans, well, I, I was, we were reading the translation and, um,

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and really we, From reading it, I thought, what is this allegation that he's crazy

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and unhinged because it actually comes across as a relatively sane and rational

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rundown of modern Russian history and it actually was sort of quite impressive in

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the sense that we couldn't imagine Boris Johnson or Joe Biden or Scott Morrison

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speaking, uh, in that way for 60 minutes.

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Yeah, it's not their style and maybe Yeah.

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But yeah, different take on that.

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So look, I said straight away and that was, you know, that's what started it all.

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I sent an email saying, uh, yeah, it does look a bit deranged, but, but look, it's.

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Uh, then I, then I said that, you know, what, uh, if, if you just look at, uh,

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this, um, well, the speech was, was really an exercise in a sort of justification

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of, uh, the next move it looks like.

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Um, so it's, you know, you look at it and say, nah, he didn't,

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you know, he didn't jump and, uh, you know, on the table and yelled.

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He though, conveys,

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uh, it sounded disgust.

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It's not a disgust, but it's, it's really superiority and, and sort

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of with a smirk, you know, talking about, you know, all things Ukrainian.

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Uh, so there is clear message that, you know, of, of him, um.

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What you're trying to say, I think, is there was a, something

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was lost in translation.

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Oh yeah, definitely, definitely there's something lost in translation.

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For a native Russian speaker, you could detect.

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Um, a different tone that we couldn't.

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I also have a background of his other speeches and that is

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pretty much his style, you know, with a smile or with a smirk.

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So there are different, different degrees of madness, I guess, and, you

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know, I almost could feel like, uh, you know, he was, he was one of the, he was

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a person who, you know, with a smile tells you that, you know, he's going

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to kill you or something like that.

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Right.

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And the thing is that I don't, I don't really know if it's his.

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People say, oh, you know, he's, he's mentally deranged or, or, you know,

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he lost, or, um, I don't know, you know, it can, and it can be, uh, or

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it can be that he is surrounded by people who, you know, yes, man, and,

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and whatever, uh, don't tell him.

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Or tell him what he wants to hear and so that, you know, he's sure of

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his messianic, uh, you know, nature.

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I don't really know, or maybe something else, but it's, uh, we remember Colonel

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Gaddafi being sure that everyone loves him and he is the greatest guy in the world.

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And that Romanian dictator was on the porch and surprised

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when the crowd was booing him.

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Um, yeah, Ceaușescu or Ceaușescu, yeah.

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That's it, yeah, thank you.

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So, look, when I was reading it, I got a little bit of a sense of, um, that I

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think he sees himself, you know, he's getting on now, I think he's 69 or

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something, and He was very resentful of the break up of the Soviet Union, and

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Resentful is the right word, actually.

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Yeah, and really, it was, um, his job in history was to at

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least, um, get some of it back.

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It was really the sort of what I read.

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And I think, I think he definitely has a sort of a sense of his place in

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history in terms of, of And It's, while it might seem a crazy, and it might be

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doomed to failure for him personally, I think he's just prepared to roll the

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dice, cause he's reached that point.

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So yeah, there would be an element of, of almost a crazy level of

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Nationalistic pride and desire there.

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Yeah, which is important.

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And, and, and look, this is, uh, you know, ideology as well.

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And I like to hear that because it just gives them a sense of, uh, pride.

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But it doesn't have to be that way.

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I mean, really, you don't have to be, uh, a well respected, powerful

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and great nation, uh, just for fear and, you know, measure of it.

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It's not how many, uh, you know, other nations fear you,

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but it can be something else.

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Japan now is not pressing a lot of countries or in the past, you

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know, decades, but it was, it was doing very well economically and,

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you know, it's hard to argue.

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They set the goal to be, I don't know, best in, uh, in the world

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in some sense and achieved it.

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I'm just an example.

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I mean It is really sad that it's understood, greatness is

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understood in that way, and I guess a lot of people will believe.

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Yeah.

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Is he particularly well educated, or does his voice come across as

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a working class accent, or um, does it come across as Bergen?

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Is that what you described his accent as?

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Uh, well, I don't think accent is, uh, you know, in Russian, no, I wouldn't say, uh,

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would have accent as such, but you know, the, uh, the vocabulary and sometimes

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he's, he's just, uh, using the language.

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So everyone's of, you know, everyone from that generation is, you know, university

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educated probably, but it doesn't tell, uh, it doesn't say that he's not.

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He's not a sophisticated, uh, you know, person.

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For example, when you listen to Donald Trump, you recognize that

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he's not a sophisticated person.

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So, yeah, same with Putin.

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Yeah, okay.

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And, and, and the funny thing is that a lot of people around him, even, uh,

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you know, he wasn't, sort of, very well educated and, uh, maybe Having some

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degree of sophistication have to go to the level because that's expected.

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Ed, we'll wrap it up a little bit.

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So, uh, anything that you wanted to say that you think people need to

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know that we haven't covered already?

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That you used the average Aussie new?

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I think, I think already, I already said pretty much, you know, all,

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uh, that I wanted, you know, points.

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I probably wanted to stop on the term fascism and just Maybe, uh, a

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bit of footballs, because, you know, it's being thrown around a lot.

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And, um And there was, I think in recent times, uh, everyone goes back to, uh,

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an article by Umberto Eco, uh, and an Italian guy, you know, uh, name of the

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rose fame, if you remember the movie, but it's you, he was an Italian, uh,

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writer who, uh, was growing up, you know, during the Soviet times, so he,

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he wrote an article, he wrote, uh, um, uh, Uh, an article, an essay called

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Earth Fascism in 1995, where he really distilled it in 14 points, uh, you know,

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fascism is, and, and some points, and if you, if you're just, you know, talking

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about, you know, Ukraine or Russia Uh, and if you look at these points, and I

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invite everyone, Echo is ECO, uh, Umberto probably is an Italian name, probably

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just as you, uh, I, I can send them on to that if you, if you haven't heard.

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Um, there is, you know, these are 14 points, and some of them just Read them

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and think about them and, and try to apply and, you know, things like disagreeing,

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disagreement is treason, you know, that's characterized as the fashion.

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Or, uh, you know, rejection of modernism or cult of tradition or,

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you know, obsession with the plot.

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Like everyone's plotting against you or contempt for the weak.

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Uh, you know, everyone's educated to be a hero.

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Think about these kids who, you know, growing up to be Okay, yeah, there's a,

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uh, there's a link there, isn't there?

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Uh, so, that's food for thought, just read it.

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Uh, you know, read this principle, think about them, and try to apply it and

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see if it, uh, what comes out of it.

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And what you're saying is you think that Putin is a fascist.

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I'm not saying, look, Putin is, you know, is Putin, okay?

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But when, when the word's been thrown around, and I'm not

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even talking about individuals.

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Just, you know, the general, you know, sort of idea in the society of what's good

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or what we want or, uh, you know, things, as I say, the term has been thrown around.

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So if we go by this definition, uh, because, because Russians are very

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offended by, you know, some, some things that other people do in their corner,

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you know, they're fascists and, um, like, uh, like, uh, you know, insult

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that probably is, you know, mother of all insults and, uh, because this is, you

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know, Going back to Hitler times and this genuine, you know, feel that, you know,

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Russia defeated fascism, Nazism, uh, you know, at the time, kind of forgetting

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that, well, you know, Russia was won.

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Party or the coalition and Soviet Union definitely was, you know, one theme there.

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So Ukraine was taking part in it and took a lot of casualties and, uh,

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yeah, so you can't say that, you know, Russia defeated Fashion and Ukraine.

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So because the term is used a lot, just, yeah.

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Just think about it.

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Overused, maybe.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Okay, and just, um, so, you must hop on your computer hourly and you're getting

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messages from friends and family and it's just an all encompassing sort of thing

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where you're just inundated with news and keeping up with things and probably

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just thinking about it 24 7, I guess.

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It'd be hard not to.

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Yeah, I'll probably go and have some rum to, you know, to help me sleep now.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So, so, well, Ed, I really appreciate, um, you taking the time out to do this.

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It's been, uh, it's an interesting insight.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I hope it helps.

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And, uh, look, I've done.

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enough to, you know, for giving me time and, you know, um, opportunity

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to say what I wanted to say.

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Yeah.

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So, um, so good on you, Ed.

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And, um, and well, fingers crossed, uh, that at some point it stops sooner

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rather than later and some solution is found, but it's hard to imagine

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what that will be at this stage.

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I was convinced, not convinced, but I just assumed he would Donbass region.

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And he was just going to shell these other areas to keep them occupied while he

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shored up that, but it doesn't seem to be that he's going to be satisfied with that.

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And it just doesn't seem After some point, it all became, uh,

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irrational, you know, to me, and, and, and impossible to comprehend.

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So, you know, we're in shock really, you know, really from shock, uh, and

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I have, I have a friend, uh, who, you know, she has two kids, uh, and, Elson

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is 19 or 20 and he went to Ukraine, uh, cause he wanted to go to Europe and,

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you know, sort of And he's there in Kiev now, so she's, she's texting him all the

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time, but I mean, I can't imagine, like, so, so my heart goes to Ukraine, um,

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it is unimaginable, but also because I know people personally who suffer

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and, you know, and my family are there.

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Uh, even family on the Russian side are panicking too, uh, and it's not like

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they, uh, and it pains me to say, like, when I say, you know, Russia is

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an aggressor here, uh, or, you know,

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I don't have, you know, I'm not saying, I don't, I don't like what

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I'm saying, I'm not enjoying it.

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I, I,

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I don't feel Russian, uh, anymore, I guess.

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Not because of this, like, a long time ago.

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It's just, you know, I left for other reasons, I guess.

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I, you know, I wanted just to, you know, change country.

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So it's not, it's not because of that.

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It's just You know, people I know, I speak the language, right, so I have

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a side, and I still, I know I can't, I can't talk about it really, uh, as, as

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an impatient, um, you know, observer.

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Sorry.

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It's sort of a despair that your home country, if you like, is, is doing this,

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um, and has a leader who has dragged them into this, you know, for sure.

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Yeah.

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Ed, that's, there's too much tragedy in the world.

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I just know.

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Um, yeah.

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Um, up here in Queensland, we've got our floods and that I've got four customers

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who have had their shops flooded, you know, most of them without insurance.

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And yeah, it's tough times out there for a lot of people.

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Um, and they're probably luckier than people hold up in a basement, in, um,

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in, uh, in the Ukraine, well, it's shells are falling around them, so, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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If you, if you think times are tough, there's always

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somebody worse off than you.

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And a lot of them are in the Ukraine at the moment, so.

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Yeah.

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And, and you know, I read somewhere like, oh, imagine a few months ago we were only

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worried about, uh, you know, COVID Pan.

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Yeah.

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Mm-Hmm.

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Pandemic, you know, it is just pandemic.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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When you, when you, I guess, you know.

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Look at the newspapers and what we have there.

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Oh, you know, plague and war and it's like Middle Ages, isn't it?

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Yes, it is.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Interesting times.

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All right.

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In Chinese definition of interesting, yes.

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Yeah.

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Much appreciated, Ed.

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Thanks for your time.

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Thank you, dear listeners in the chat room.

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Hope you enjoyed that one.

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A bit different.

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We'll be back with something else next week.

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Not sure what, but, um, bye for now.

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Thanks, Ed.

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Cheers.

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The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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