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Episode 314 - How Dying With Dignity Successfully Lobbied for VAD Laws

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In this episode, we hear from Dr. Craig Glasby about how "Dying With Dignity" successfully lobbied to get VAD laws passed in Queensland.

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Celebrating a Secular Victory

01:02 Diving Deep into Voluntary Assisted Dying Laws

01:20 The Strategy and Success of Lobbying for Dying With Dignity

02:42 Analyzing the Final Vote and Political Dynamics

05:20 The Power of Community Engagement and Targeted Campaigns

10:03 Rallying Support and the Impact of Public Demonstrations

20:17 Navigating the Legislative Process and Overcoming Opposition

35:26 Reflecting on the Journey and the Future of VAD Legislation

44:21 The Power of Community Mobilization

46:02 The Inside Story: Strategies and Allies

48:52 Celebrating Victory and Reflecting on the Journey

51:33 The Importance of Major Party Support in Legislative Change

56:00 The Role of Personal Involvement and Grassroots Efforts

01:11:48 Maintaining Momentum: The Future of Dying with Dignity

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Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcript
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We need to talk about ideas.

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Good ones and bad ones.

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We need to learn stuff about the world.

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We need an honest, intelligent, thought provoking, and entertaining

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review of what the hell happened on this planet in the last seven days.

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We need to sit back and listen.

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To the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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Hello and welcome dear listener.

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This is the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove Podcast, uh, episode 313.

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A special episode for you.

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It's not often that we get a victory to celebrate in the secular world,

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but we do actually have one tonight.

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So a special episode I have with me, the one and only deep throw to Craig Glasby.

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Vice President of Dying With Dignity, welcome aboard, Craig, and

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congratulations on a solid victory.

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Thank you.

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Thank you, Fist, and yeah, it's sweet to win.

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It's sweet to win, and hello, dear listeners.

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Yes, so, um, people who've listened to the podcast before, we've already gone

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through the Voluntary Assisted Dying Laws.

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That was back in episode 299, so we're not going to repeat it.

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What the laws are and what's involved and how you go about

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accessing voluntary assisted dying.

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What I really want to do in this episode was talk to Craig about, um, how the

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vote went, just the lobbying efforts in the final weeks and days, uh, what

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happened in Parliament, the speeches, anything that struck him as interesting.

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And then we're going to also look at, um, you know, this, this is an unusual

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success story and it needs to be examined in some respect as to how to

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conduct a successful lobbying effort when you're not a powerful coal lobby

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or some other lobby with lots of money.

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So I want to talk to Craig about how Dying With Dignity did it.

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Um, what's, what, what were the efforts?

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What were the things on the ground and?

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If Craig was to be involved in another group on another I thought

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Craig just had a heart attack.

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Too early for that, too early.

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Yeah, just hypothetically, um, what lessons that you've learned and, you

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know, for example, in my head I'm thinking things like the religious instruction

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lessons or chaplaincy or getting the census question changed or other things.

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What should group community groups be doing?

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What lessons have been learned?

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How do we actually affect change?

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So those are the sorts of things that we'd like to talk about tonight.

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So if you manage to catch the live stream, please say hello if you're in the chat

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and we might get to your questions.

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But, um, in any event, um, so Craig, um, the final vote,

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61 in favour and 30 against.

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Mmm, yeah, that was, um, along the way, you know, we were thinking,

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oh, Jeannie might miss by one.

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And I'm talking, you know, quite a few months ago.

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And that became apparent that probably we would get it across the line

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just through our own talking to MPs and getting a feel for the land.

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And also the hint that there were some LNP, uh, MPs that would come across.

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So then when we got the sense that, um, yeah, we were going to get

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there, then our strategy changed a bit because we were thinking ahead.

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To when government would change, LNP would get in, eventually something will happen.

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And we're thinking, we have to have an emphatic twin so that they're

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going to think twice, um, about you know, making any changes, you know,

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just put a bit of fear in them.

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Um, so then all of a sudden we had a bit of a meeting and we were in a

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coalition, um, we were in a coalition with some other groups and um, we

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had a meeting and um, The figure came out, um, we have to make 60.

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I thought, oh, that's impossible.

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I thought, gee, that's not gonna happen.

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Um, but, um, the person that put it forward was adamant

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that's what we had to get.

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Um, and in the lead up in the week before, I put the numbers together

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myself, and I thought we had 56.

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Right.

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I thought, no, I'm going to make 60.

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But, lo and behold, we got our 60, yeah, that's right.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So there were obviously a lot of unknowns in there, in the lead up.

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People who just refused to say?

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Oh, absolutely.

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All the way along, um, when we were trying to tackle.

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And this was before the election, you know, well before the election, where

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we were putting them on the spot all the time, but they would say, I need to

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see the legislation, and I need to see amendments, I need to see all this stuff.

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They were holding off the whole way.

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And that sort of stymied us a bit, because you just couldn't come out and say, you

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know, like they're against it, you know.

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You're going, but We did play the, the, the, the line that if you don't

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let your constituents know, how are they going to do past their vote?

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You know, this is important to a lot of the people in your electorate.

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So we did put pressure on them from that point of view.

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And the other thing is when we ran Our campaign before the election,

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uh, we went into certain, uh, electorates, uh, we, you know, we

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targeted electorates that we thought were important, that we had to hold.

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And we, and because we're apolitical from that point of view, we just

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pushed the line about who was said yes, which candidates said definite yes.

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And, uh, which one said no, which there weren't many of them, and

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all these question mark ones.

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So, so we had to play that line.

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So it was a careful, you know, So that was in the lead up to

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the last state election vote.

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Exactly, yeah.

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And were you at the polling booths?

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Yes, yes.

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Yeah.

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And you were handing out a leaflet saying, as far as we know, in this election,

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for this seat, for this electorate, this district, here's what we know.

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This guy said yes, this lady said no, and these people have said no.

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Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

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And the idea was to put some pressure on the candidates, and particularly the LNP

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candidates, although there were Lots of Labor, um, candidates that had made up

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their mind as well, um, put pressure on them that from the point of view of the

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media, media would turn up to the, and here we are with our signs and stuff like

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that, and, and they would ask questions.

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So, uh, we were sort of gaming them in a way to, to put the question

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to the, um, to the candidates.

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So did any politician actually, you feel, was forced to state

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their position as a result of that?

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No.

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Do you think?

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No.

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Okay.

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No.

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But I don't think that was I don't think that mattered.

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It just made them uncomfortable.

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And it also put voluntary assisted dying out there, you know, put that

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in front of the community, as it were, because, you know, they get

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asked this question and, um, and they're not, they're, they're hedging.

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And at home, people are yelling at the TV screen, well, it's a simple thing.

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Just say yes.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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So.

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Yep.

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So it didn't actually get an instant result, but it was just part of the

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pressure and the blocking on people.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I know I'm digressing a little bit, but the, we, we, we did our research

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and we had our target seats to look at.

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And, um, and they did pretty well, you know, in terms of, cause, cause

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we thought that Voluntary Instance of the Dying was a winner, a vote winner.

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You know, if you've got 80 percent of the electorate saying, yes, I want this,

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How can that be a negative, you know?

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So, so, um, so yeah, you know, we, we thought, yeah, that, that, that

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would get the candidates that were pro that came out across the line.

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And so we were in electorates where the candidates had declared their position.

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Now they were, they were Labor candidates, um, across the board here.

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Right.

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Okay.

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So you were in some electorates where Labor declared its position

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and that, Um, and then that put pressure on the LNP guys, particularly

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in an urban seat, I guess.

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Yes.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And a particular one that comes to mind was Townsville in, um, Thuringowa

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and, uh, where the Labor guy had really come out strongly in terms of favour

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of voluntary assistance to dying.

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And we had an extremely strong, um, local group there, dying particularly.

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And they were putting pressure all the time on them.

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They were relentless.

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Right.

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And.

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And then the, oh, when I said no, none of them came out well, the Alan Peake

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did come out in favour of it, because they felt they were losing to it.

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And, uh, it was a, we knew the Labour guy was under a bit of pressure because

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of the, um, youth, um, crime there.

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Yes.

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Yeah, so, um, so, um, we like to think that, you know, because he

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was so much in favour, Um, that, that helped him across the line.

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Right.

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But we're not, we're not political remember, we're just, we're just

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pushing candidates that were pro.

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Yes.

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Yep.

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And recognising that that would push their vote.

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So how many electorates were there that you were active in?

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We had five in South East Queensland and um, there was um, Bundaberg and um, in

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the Townsville, so there's Murrumburg.

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Uh, Farra and, um, Townsville.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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And in each of those, you had people at a few booths, did you?

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Yes.

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We couldn't, we couldn't cover everything.

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No.

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Yes, no, that's right.

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So maybe eight places times, three booths, times a couple of people,

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so yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

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50 people maximum on the ground.

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Not many, many.

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It's hard to, it's hard to get people to do things like, well,

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as you know, it's really hard.

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People are sitting in their home going, yeah, yeah, I can do that.

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But when they've actually come to the crunch offs and go to

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the football or something.

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So we're going to get onto later on how many people in Dying With Dignity

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are actually active and doing stuff and how much was it just a core group of.

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Half a dozen people, but we'll get to that later.

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Okay.

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I still want to talk about, um, the vote and, um, so there was a rally

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outside Parliament House the day before.

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You met Shea.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Shea was there.

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Sir Perciv was there.

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That was great meeting up with her.

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Yeah.

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And so was that sort of thing useful?

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Um, it was useful in a couple of ways and, um, and I must admit it was my

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idea to do that, you know, and, and I realized early on that we had to

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get in there fast and I, It was quite early and I said to our president,

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Look, we really need to do that.

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And she said, Yeah, yeah, we've got time.

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And I said, What if Cherish Life get in there and book the spot?

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And, well, she was there the next morning at the police station,

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filling in the forms, you know.

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Oh, your president was.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah, jobs have got to be handed around and that's sort of her forte.

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Yes.

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So, um, So we felt we needed to be there and the police don't

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like different, you know, opposing groups in case there's trouble.

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So we felt we had to get in early.

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So, um, yeah, so that's happened there.

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So it was useful from the point of view of, you know, Showing the MPs inside.

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They weren't actually inside then, that wasn't until the next

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day that Parliament started.

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But it did show them that there was that community interest out

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there and there was a, you know, people really, really wanted it.

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And it also gave an opportunity for those MPs that were strongly for it to sort

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of turn up and have their face there.

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Even though they weren't asked to say words.

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We were again pushing the fact that we're apolitical, this is

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a cross the board type thing.

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Yes.

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But the, you know, Polly's, you know, they want to be seen.

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So they did pop their heads.

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There were some there and I, unfortunately, I missed some of them.

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With masks and things like that.

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Yes.

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Sometimes, yes, I'm a bit annoyed with myself.

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I didn't recognize some of the politicians and didn't get up to say hello to them.

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But the other thing you want too, the other thing we had in our mind was,

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Down the track, uh, we need images of that to show politicians if there's a

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movement against this in the future.

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Look, look at these images.

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These are the groups that were out there.

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And we had banners everywhere.

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You wouldn't have seen them on the TV.

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But we had banners all over the place from all the various groups that were

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supporting Volunteers for the Dying.

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And so, those images are important going through to the future.

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Yeah, I wasn't there, but I saw the photo that Alison took.

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It looked, um Looked like a calm and, um, yeah, it wasn't histrionic at all.

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It was very calm was the feeling I got looking at the pictures, which is good.

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Yeah.

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And then we had speakers, um, there and they, they were great, you

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know, they, they did a fabulous job.

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And as you say, that was calm and measured.

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Um, and I just have to, um, just, um, comment on that all

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the way through our campaign.

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We kept saying to our supporters and any groups that we came in contact with, look.

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We've got to keep this respectful.

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This is about the issues, it's not about the people.

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We've got to respect the opponents.

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We've got to come from a strong evidence base.

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You know, we, we've got evidence on our, in our favor.

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We've got the moral, um, strength in our favor and that we don't have

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to get histrionic, we don't have to become zealots or anything like that.

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Just keep it quiet and civil and respectful and that'll win the day.

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Because.

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You know the opponent's eventually going to lose the plot and start yelling

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and screaming or something like that.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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If you're in the chat room, you've just joined the live stream.

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Um, I'm here with Craig, who's the vice president of Dying With Dignity, and we're

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just wallowing in the glory of a victory.

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And, uh, in episode 299, we talked about the ins and outs of the legislation.

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This episode is to talk about how, how it was done, how it was

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won, and what lessons are to be learned for other community groups.

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That's the idea of this podcast if you're in the chat room.

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Hello Daniel, Jack, James, Don, and Greg, and Tony in the chat room.

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So, We've got a question, throw it in there, but just sit back and

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listen to Craig as we enjoy a moment.

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So, um, okay.

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Was there, did anyone renege on a previously stated position in the

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sense of, yes, I'm in favour of it, and then turned around and voted against?

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Did you get anybody?

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No, I don't think anyone actually came out strongly, in a strong contradiction

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of what they were saying previously.

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The one MP I was a little bit surprised, not completely surprised, but annoyed

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I didn't get round to seeing him.

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One escaped me.

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And that was Bart Malish from Aspley, the Labor guy.

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So that, I should have seen that coming, but I didn't.

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Okay.

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And in your I'm imagining a whiteboard with all the names.

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I guess it was a spreadsheet.

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It was a spreadsheet.

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Okay.

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And did you have like a rating of how strong you were confident?

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Right.

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Okay.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah, that's right.

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And the, the other thing we, we did, we asked our supporters and members who'd

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spoken to an MP or, Got some sort of email back or something like that to

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give us feedback, you know, so that, so that we can weigh things up and see

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what we need to, to put our efforts.

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So, and that was really helpful too, because somebody come back and you

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think, Oh, they just didn't fit.

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And they come back and they say, no, he said definitely,

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he's definitely in favor of it.

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And, uh, and here I've been worried about them.

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And then I could sort of say, okay, we put our efforts somewhere else.

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Okay.

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And then you, like your spreadsheet, move them up a notch

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or two in your confidence level.

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That's right.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, good.

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Yeah.

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Um, So, um, thinking about the people who voted no, and this will be a tricky

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one, because, you know, other than a couple from the Labor, it was, um,

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it was LNP and CATA and One Nation.

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One Nation, yeah.

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So, for the LNP, thinking of the ones who voted no, the LNP, traditional

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conservative party, is all about personal freedom, freedom of the individual,

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individual liberty, individual autonomy.

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If that's You know, the heart and soul of your, of your party.

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That's, you know, that's describing your party in a nutshell to people.

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And, you know, lack of government interference in your life.

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If, you know, the only reason I can think that those people would say

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no would be because of a religious motivation, it seems to me.

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Because the policy of being in favour of voluntary assisted dying should

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go hand in hand with, with that.

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Libertarian sort of viewpoint that these people should have.

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Is it hard to, can you tell whether it was religion that stopped those people

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being in favour, or did any of them have any legitimate reason other than rules?

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Um, I, well there's a couple of things to say there, and I don't

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particularly want to talk about.

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Names in, in, in the no camp at all.

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Yes.

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Or, or they did with Bar, bar Malish.

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But um, yeah, yeah.

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I don't know his motivation to be honest, because as I said, I didn't target him.

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Yeah.

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But, um, yeah.

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But in the liberal camp, those that I spoke to at the, the LMP, um, there was

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definitely those who were, I think he called small L Liberal, and, and they.

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Some of them were just concerned more about governance and, and, um, economics.

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That was a key thing.

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And, and they, and, uh, and one in particular said to me, look, you know,

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that's stuff I, I'm more interested in the economics, but I realized this is

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my job and I've got to weigh things up.

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And, um, and, uh, he was pretty good from that point of view.

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And he said, he said things like, um, Entities having a conscientious objection?

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How does that work?

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There was things he just couldn't understand, and this

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was coming from his own party.

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So clearly there was divisions there in terms of thought, but I did get the

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impression, unlike what I heard from the, you know, abortion debate, was that, um,

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they truly did have a conscience votes.

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They were having to make up their own mind.

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But to get back to your question about, um, religion, um, we had some certain LNP.

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members up and we didn't target anyone at all.

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So they're, they're probably sitting at home going saying, well, we

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didn't hear anything about this.

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Yeah.

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Like Tim Mander and, and, um, Mark Robinson and, and those sort of LMPs.

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So they'll, they'll be thinking that this wasn't a big issue because we

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weren't, but they were a lost cause, you know, that was just the beginning.

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That's going to tow the religious line.

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Save your energy for somewhere where you're at a chance.

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That's right.

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There's no use wasting your time there.

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I saw his, uh, reason was actually, he said, well, it's LNP policy to

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be against voluntary assisted dying.

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That's what we went to the election with, so that's what I'm voting was more

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or less Yeah, yeah, so he's right in a sense that that was, um, LNP policy, and

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I assume it still is, um, but, you know, granting a conscience vote overrides that,

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and because of that, um, Labor Party, um, state conference back in, I don't

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know where it is, I've got it here down somewhere, that, that, so it was Labor

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Party policy to, to have conscience, and so there, there was that, that party line

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Underlying things, and I think that's got to make MPs a bit anxious, hasn't it?

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Even if they're told, look, you're free to do whatever you like, and

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they were, um, It's got to be a bit of anxiety there, particularly if you're

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a bit, a bit unsure of your seat.

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There were pre selection or whatever, so, yeah, yeah, interesting.

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Yeah, I mean, as arguments go, it's probably one of the better ones by

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Tim Mander to say, well, people would have voted based on policies and

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that's our policy and that's Yeah!

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So, I can accept that as a reasonable argument.

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Yeah, that's probably the best argument of the whole lot, to be honest, yeah.

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I think I had I wrote one thing down here.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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From one LNP guy, this is during his little thing in Parliament, and

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he said, um, um, Faith and God is a higher power than this Parliament.

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That was his reason.

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So there we go.

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And he sat down.

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Well, he said more than that, but that was the crux of the matter, you know.

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Um, and so I thought that, you know, compared to Mark Robinson, who I would

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have thought that would cover him, him.

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He wasn't really pushing the religious thing as much, and I think

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it's because he's been shot in the foot too many times by doing that.

Speaker:

Right, right.

Speaker:

So, um, the speeches, by all accounts, there were a lot of emotional speeches,

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and people got, politicians got up and told a few personal stories about

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their parents or friends or whatever.

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So, how many days were there of speeches?

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There was three days of speeches and, um, and, uh, my job in one of the,

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uh, DWDQ was to sit through the whole three days while parliamentarians got

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up and walked out and came back and had their lunch and did all this and

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we're sitting there just uncomfortable.

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I've got to say, Parliament House needs a renovation.

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It's a serious need.

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So we sat through the whole thing.

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Uh, and I felt I needed to do that for a couple of reasons.

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I wanted to.

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But the other reason is, behind my mask, people can see my beard hanging down.

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So the MPs could see someone up there that they could recognize as

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being from DWDQ, while they might not recognize others because of the sign.

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Oh, a third reason why I had to be there.

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I knew Cherrish Life were across the aisle.

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Right, and they were there.

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To Cherrish Life.

Speaker:

They were there.

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As well.

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They were there, yeah, and um, I can't say for 100%, but gee, probably 99

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percent sure that that was Cherrish Life.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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And they were still waving to MPs that we know, we're a definite no.

Speaker:

Right.

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Not that you're supposed to do that.

Speaker:

Yeah, probably only twice during the whole, the whole three days.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And your pencil got confiscated.

Speaker:

Yeah, I'm like, well, you know about my arm, I go through the metal

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detector, boing, boing, boing, boing, and I'm going, oh, what was that,

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and then I suddenly remember my arm.

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So it makes me go back and forth a few times and check my pockets and that, and

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I tell him about my arm, and he couldn't, the guy couldn't cope with that, and

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he said, oh no, it must be your belt.

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He just went.

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He'd never heard of somebody having metal plates in their For some reason

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he just couldn't cope, but he had to punish me somehow, so So the only thing

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I wanted to take up was a piece of paper and my pen, but no, no, pen, pen,

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everything has to go in the little locker.

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Right, right.

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So the first day I didn't, I didn't take any notes for the first

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day, which was a bit of a shame.

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Right.

Speaker:

But the crazy thing, though, is there were people up with pencils

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and pens and writing things Yes.

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And stuff like that, yeah.

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So the media didn't turn up.

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Oh yeah, they were there, but they weren't there in numbers, so they were,

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I think they've got to be accredited with Parliament, the media, and they're up

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the other end from the public gallery, so they're looking in a different direction.

Speaker:

Did they ever approach you and ask you for No, but that wasn't my job, you

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know, I'm not, I'm not real good in front of cameras, so we had, we had our, you

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know, people who deal with that, so.

Speaker:

Right.

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Everyone had their job, so.

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We'll get to that later.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah.

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Because I'm very interested in that.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

Bye.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

So, what speeches struck you as interesting and what arguments

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were made that you might have, uh, been surprised or just think the

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listener might find were interesting?

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Yeah.

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Um.

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The, the one that stuck in my mind, and this is just because of the

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involvement, was Aaron Harper in, um, from Tharangoa in, um, in Townsville.

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Um, he's been the driver.

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It's, it seems to be across the board in the different, you know, like Victoria

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and Western Australia and South Australia, that there's one parliamentarian that puts

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his hand up to go, or her hand up to go.

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Um, you know, I'm, this is my big thing, this is what I'm going to

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push, and it was Aaron Harper.

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And, um, it's interesting because he was a bit iffy right back, you know, way

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before any of this sort of started about whether he should get on board and that.

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But our, our crew in Townsville, boy, they were tenacious.

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And they convinced him, they convinced him to do this.

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And he's a paramedic too, so he had inkling he'd been to, you know,

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well, I assume so, you know, most paramedics have been to suicides

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and learned that the person will have terminal illness and that's the

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reason why they committed suicide.

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Yes.

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So once he sort of got his head around the philosophy of it and the ethics of

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it and that And he was just gung ho, he was all for it, and he was the head of

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the um, the first um, health committee, um, before the first, what's that, 2017?

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And then before this, and this new health committee as well.

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So he was the head of the, um, the chairman of those health committees.

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Yep.

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Ah, and the hours he put in was just amazing, so, so when he got up to spoke,

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I was already emotionally charged, and so were our crew, so it's a bit hard

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to know how everyone else is feeling.

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Um, but he lost it.

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He was crying and, you know, and as he talked about everything and,

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and uh, in, in, in, in, in the public gallery, we were crying.

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It was, it was so emotional.

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Yeah.

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So, um, if you ask me what he said, I have no idea.

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Cause it was on the first day.

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So I haven't got any notes, but it was just the emotion of the thing that got

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through and, and, and so there were quite a few stories that came through.

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And I think that was the, that was important that the, that the, The

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people, the MPs against it, could hear these stories again because some of

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them wouldn't have been as involved as the other MPs and might only be hearing

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these stories, you know, for the first time almost, which is hard to believe,

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but, um, so, so those stories were, were, were really important, um, and

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um, the other one, the other two that sort of struck me a bit was Cynthia Liu

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from MP from Cook in in the far North.

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She's a Uh, a Torres Strait Islander.

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Um, and she had personal stories as well, and the way she came out in

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favour of this, um, was great to see.

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Yeah, that was important.

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We were worried about her for a while, because we kept hearing this

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thing from the opponents that the Indigenous people need to be involved

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and all this other thing, but as you say, they're just like everyone else.

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There's some for it and some against it and the other thing, so.

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Yeah.

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So, the fact that she came out in favour was great, but we had to do a bit of

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work there and um, we've got another representative of a doctor in North

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Queensland who's on our committee.

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And she finally spoke to her and she just came out and said, yes, I'm in favour.

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And so that was it.

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We didn't have to worry anymore.

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Right.

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And there's the other one, um, Aboriginal person in Parliament, um,

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ah, who's um, um, just forgotten her name just off the top of my head.

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Oh, Leanne Inop.

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Um, she's from Algester.

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And I didn't realise that she had Aboriginal heritage, but she came

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out and spoke to that as well.

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So I thought, you know, this business about Indigenous people not

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wanting it is a bit of a fur fee.

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And also the first person in Western Australia to access voluntary assisted

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dying was an Indigenous person.

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Right.

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I'm going, you know, and I think that helped because it, I didn't

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hear that argument come up anymore.

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It was sort of like, it was dead in the water, so, so, that got rid

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of that, that, that problem, so.

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Um, oh, yeah, so, um, yeah.

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So, I'm imagining stories where people were talking about their parents

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who had a rough death and how it was terrible to watch them suffering.

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Yeah.

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If only this was available, that would have been You know, so much better, but

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those, just a number of stories like that.

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Yes, yes.

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And I think that, that made our job easier that MPs had personal stories

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and that's, that made them yes voters, you know, in terms of Parliament,

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so that made our job a lot easier.

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Yeah.

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So do you think the people who voted no just haven't had that

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experience as well, do you think?

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Is it possible that maybe?

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Um, you, you, the, I think some of them were swayed by the nay arguments a bit,

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even though they may have felt Personally, that there was something in this.

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They felt the greater good was, you know, towards, um, avoiding those arguments,

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which are hard to, you know, to fathom.

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It's just hard to imagine somebody witnessing a, you know, a terrible,

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torturous death of their parent, for example, and then voting no.

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Yeah.

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Like, it's hard to imagine.

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It is.

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It is.

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Um, so it's Yeah, so We'll never know.

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We'll never know.

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Yeah, there's a few things like We actually thought we

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had the Catters on board.

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Yes.

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Very early on.

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Very early on.

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They were making all the right noises.

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We had one of our people working on them and he thought they were in the bag.

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But I always knew that an MP in the bag is not in the bag.

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So what?

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So, the, how many CATA members are, and they all three voted against it,

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and what, what was their argument?

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Um, the argument, the principal argument right through from the no

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voters in, in, in, no, no MP voters, um, was, um, that palliative care

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had to get up, uh, had to be better.

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first before we had VAD.

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Now, I know that doesn't make much sense.

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Yes.

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Um, and the other argument was, which was sort of a subclause of that argument was,

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and there's no equity across Queensland, like there's better palliative care in

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South East Queensland, not in the regions.

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Yeah.

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And that inequality, inequity, um, of access to, um, palliative

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care was a reason not to do it.

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But I can't, I can't buy that argument.

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I can't fathom it myself.

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From their point of view, I think.

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You know, the whole reason for being is we're fighting for the regions,

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and we're now fighting for better palliative care in the regions.

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That's what we're doing.

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So, there's a means of differentiating themselves, and that's, that's what

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they're all about, is, is better care.

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Yeah.

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Services for the, that was the main argument against, which

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surprised me a little bit.

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In fact, the ERs, Robbie put up a, an amendment to, um, to sync the whole thing.

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Yeah.

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Um, and this was with, you know, you do the second reading and a vote,

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and then you do the debate before the final reading, which is the vote.

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And, um, he, he said, um, this is it, Mr.

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Speaker.

Speaker:

I move that the words now read for a second time, be deleted, and

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the following words be inserted.

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Considered further after the state government has committed to provide

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the required additional funding of 275 million per year, he's not asking

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much, to palliative care delivery, uh, so, so he tried to squash it and, um,

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and, you know, that got a little bit of, you know, razzed from the other

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MPs that this was a bit over the top.

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Right, yep.

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But the interesting thing was, once he did that, there were LMP that voted.

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Supported his, his motion.

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So they had to ring the bells and get everyone to do a vote.

Speaker:

Yeah, right.

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Okay.

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So for all the speeches and emotional pleas and the arguments, did any of that

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change anybody's mind, do you think?

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Who was voting?

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No, I don't think so.

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I think it There might have been, because as I said, I think, I thought

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we had 56 in the bag, and I was trying to be as honest to myself and not over

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optimistic, but I was trying to be, you know, that's the best evidence

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we had, so, so I guess on that you could say there were four in the bag.

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So when you thought 56, how many unknowns did you have at that time?

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Oh, we had quite a lot.

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Yeah, we had quite a lot of unknowns.

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Um, but, um, they were more on the no side, the undecided side,

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that we thought, well, I probably won't go, you know, sort of thing.

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So, Because the LNP weren't playing ball and telling us, we had that

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group that might not have come across.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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So, none of the no voter arguments impressed you, or none of their

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speeches impressed you at all?

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Really?

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No, not really.

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Um, I'm just trying to think if there was anything, um The thing

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that worried me, there were certain things that they were going to push.

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They were going to push the 12 month back to 6 month.

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Um, I thought that might happen.

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Um, but they stayed strong on that.

Speaker:

Um, but the, um, the thing that, I thought might be a problem was

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the institutional objection entity.

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Yeah, let's just briefly explain for the dear listener.

Speaker:

So in other states, this hasn't got through, but basically the Queensland

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one said that if you're a patient in a Catholic hospital and you want to

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access voluntary assisted dying, then The hospital's got to sort of allow the

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information to get to you and they've got to allow a transfer if it's possible.

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But if it's not possible, they've got to allow somebody else to

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come in and provide the service.

Speaker:

Is that kind of right or not?

Speaker:

Well, I'd sum it up like this.

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If you're a permanent resident there, a long term resident, It doesn't matter

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what institution, Catholic or whatever, your home is your castle and that's it.

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You know, the Catholic or religious or whoever doesn't

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get a say in stopping that.

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So that's just, um, and that, you know, so that's something that's not in

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the other states as far as I'm aware.

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And, uh, but then the thing that made it a bit complicated, um, is

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that there's a gradation in terms of what you're allowed to do in,

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um, in an entity that's objecting.

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And the.

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Um, accessing information, they can't stop people going in, um, although

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there's a provisor, there should be a doctor and that sort of thing,

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so they do have some restrictions in providing that information.

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If a person wants information, they should be able to get it, they

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don't have to leave the institution.

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Um, and then there's, um, then there's, then it's broken down into the requests.

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Um, and then the assessments, and then the actual provision of

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the, um, the, uh, VAD substance.

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So, so the restrictions get a bit worse as, as, as you get down in

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towards the nitty gritty of things.

Speaker:

Yep.

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Um, the, the big thing that, um, is the rescue for, for, uh, VAD

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people, um, wanting to access it.

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Um, is the provision that if it's going to cause harm.

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Or, even financial problems with doing the transfer, or there's no

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other option, you can't go anywhere.

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If your Catholic entity is the only place you can go, then it's not fair to

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be chucked out in the street, you know.

Speaker:

So there is those provisions, which I thought were a fair sort of thing.

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And to be honest, I don't think they're going to be used very much.

Speaker:

If you're looking at this, do you really want to be in a place where

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they're sort of shunning you?

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You know, you probably would make a move, you know, try and, um,

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transfer out to a more pleasant sort of setting and that, um, So, um,

Speaker:

but I think it's fair though, yeah.

Speaker:

So that's the big difference between the Queensland

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legislation and the other states?

Speaker:

Well, it's even bigger than that because the other states are just

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too scared to even address it.

Speaker:

And we've seen problems, you know, in Western Australia and Victoria, because

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Um, yeah, people think, oh, I'll just do this, and no, you're in an entity,

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an institution that won't allow it.

Speaker:

So did the other states try and get it in, and it was amended

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out, or they just didn't even try?

Speaker:

No, didn't try.

Speaker:

There you go.

Speaker:

Yeah, Queensland, Queensland has the best legislation.

Speaker:

It's very rarely, very rare that you say that, isn't it?

Speaker:

Yes, it is.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah, no, we've got great legislation in VAD.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

Great.

Speaker:

So, why is that, that we did get it?

Speaker:

That part in, and the other states didn't, and is this getting back

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to Lindy Wilmot and this other guy?

Speaker:

Um, who I, let me just Ben White, Ben White.

Speaker:

Yeah, Ben White and Lindy Milmot will, Lindy Wilmot are professors of law at

Speaker:

QUT, actually Lindy Wilmot, uh, taught criminal law when I did, uh, law, so

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she was a criminal law lecturer, yeah.

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Um, so they were the authors of the original Voluntary Assisted Dying

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Bill that Queensland's Parliamentary Health Committee recommended as the

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basis for law reform, uh, in 2020.

Speaker:

So, they drafted the bill, is that, is that how it worked?

Speaker:

They drafted a model bill, um, because they weren't just thinking about

Speaker:

Queensland, they were drafting it for the whole of Australia, um, and, uh,

Speaker:

I can't remember when they did that, um, but it was out there and it's not

Speaker:

just the bill that, you know, I mean, the There's 20 years of research that

Speaker:

Ben White and Wendy Willmott have put in, which might say a bit about your

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age, Trevor, that it was incredible before they got involved in this.

Speaker:

It is.

Speaker:

It is.

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It was late 80s.

Speaker:

So, um, yeah, so, um, they've put a lot of work in, and then the model

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build, I just can't quite remember when they came out with that.

Speaker:

But they also adapted a little bit depending on what came out of Victoria

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and Western Australia as well.

Speaker:

Do you think that model bill was out before the other states passed theirs?

Speaker:

Good question.

Speaker:

You don't know?

Speaker:

I can't remember.

Speaker:

You can't remember.

Speaker:

But anyway, it seemed like it was a great starting point to then, at

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these committee levels where they're generating something, there's this model

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bill that these people Locals, well, Lindy's local, and I guess Ben White.

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Yeah, Ben White's.

Speaker:

So the fact that they were local, uh, Queenslanders, and have done this model

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bill, and why don't we start with that.

Speaker:

And I guess the head of the committee was this guy who was quite Aaron Harper.

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Yeah.

Speaker:

So having A really committed head, having the locals on the ground who

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drafted a model bill that had this in it.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

All the stars aligned.

Speaker:

The stars were aligned, you're exactly right.

Speaker:

And um, and it was hard to Hard to argue against it because the position

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of, um, uh, Lindy and Ben were, was that it had to be evidence based.

Speaker:

So, so, I know evidence based in law is a little bit different from clinical

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medicine, but they looked at, you know, all around the, the world and,

Speaker:

and looked at the, um, the outcomes and, and, and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker:

I, I, I can't talk to it very much, but that made it really hard to argue against

Speaker:

what they were trying to do in the bill.

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Yes.

Speaker:

Um, because.

Speaker:

They had all the arguments there on why they did what they did in the bill.

Speaker:

Yes.

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There was enough history and experience around the world that they could draw on.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

That's right.

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A bit like where we are with COVID at the moment.

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There's now so much history and data that we can draw on, that we

Speaker:

can We've got billions of people.

Speaker:

It's not guesswork anymore, folks.

Speaker:

It's a fairly large scale sample size we've got happening now.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker:

So, yeah, so that's exactly it.

Speaker:

The, um, I'm trying to think in terms of what the Queensland Law Reform

Speaker:

Commission did, because it went to them.

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Um, but the basis that they started with was the White and Wilmot, um, um, bill.

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And then, cause then they looked at it and um, there were probably some change, there

Speaker:

were changes there, but I just can't think off the top of my head what they were.

Speaker:

But most of them were In response to things that happened in Victoria

Speaker:

and Western Australia and that to try and improve things, yeah.

Speaker:

So prior to the vote, um, in the weeks leading up to it, my thoughts

Speaker:

were that's the one area that they'll really hope to try and get amendments.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

And it just, they didn't get any traction with that, with anybody.

Speaker:

Yeah, so they, they, so Janetski from Southern Toowoomba, Brought, you know,

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wanted 54 amendments to the, to the bill, um, and he, he was one of the earliest

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speakers in Parliament when they were, you know, talking about, um, you know,

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going through the, the MPs and they were all doing their 10 minutes, cause they

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all, everyone got 10 minutes to speak, which went on and on and on forever,

Speaker:

but, um, but he was pressing that, but he, he showed himself in the foot a

Speaker:

bit, um, because he said, even, I think it was him, even if these amendments.

Speaker:

Go through I will be voting against the bill You're not genuine in Resolution

Speaker:

and some of the other LMP got up and said exactly the same thing you're going.

Speaker:

Well, yeah, okay I'm not gonna get anywhere by agreeing to your amendment.

Speaker:

That's right.

Speaker:

So why should we agree?

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right You're not offering us anything.

Speaker:

You're not cutting us a deal.

Speaker:

Okay a deal at all Yeah, so so that's not an incentive to vote, you

Speaker:

know put an amendment is it so And because there's 54, they spent a lot

Speaker:

of time at the beginning on these ones before they got to the object.

Speaker:

Yeah, so they were burning themselves out.

Speaker:

Ah, right, right.

Speaker:

And it was a psychological thing too because they'd go through these amendments

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and the amendments would get voted down.

Speaker:

And the numbers changed depending on the amendment, you know, it

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wasn't 61, 30 or whatever it is.

Speaker:

Um, they changed.

Speaker:

And when they got to this, they tackled the information thing first.

Speaker:

You know, and that was the, the one that they should have left

Speaker:

alone, because that's, people are, people want information, you know,

Speaker:

they might not decide to do VAD when they get the information.

Speaker:

Okay, this is the part of the law that said if you're in a

Speaker:

Catholic hospital you, you are entitled to information about that.

Speaker:

And so they started with that as trying to get that struck out.

Speaker:

Yeah, which wasn't going to happen.

Speaker:

Right, okay, yep.

Speaker:

And then I'm waiting, I'm sitting there, I'm waiting for it.

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And I was really anxious at this stage because, um, with the process,

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what usually happens and has happened in other parliaments is that the,

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that one MP takes on the role as being the, um, you know, response.

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The lead opponent.

Speaker:

The lead opponent.

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And you, you would've thought that was Aaron Harper.

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But no, they, they, um, they brought in Steven Miles as a deputy premier

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because that's got more status.

Speaker:

And so he was the one that was replying to these, and I was thinking,

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Oh, this is going to be really, really hard to respond to this.

Speaker:

You know, this is the, this is the hard one.

Speaker:

This is, it's, it's hard enough for people just to read the bill and come to

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a conclusion and sort it, sort through it.

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And they gave up.

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The opposite parties just gave up.

Speaker:

I was waiting for it.

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Nothing.

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And they just moved on.

Speaker:

I'm going, you moved on at the right, at the time when you, this is

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when you, this is your big moment.

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And nothing!

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I'm going, you bitch!

Speaker:

Wow.

Speaker:

Yeah, I know that.

Speaker:

What day was that?

Speaker:

That was on the Friday, yeah.

Speaker:

Was that day three?

Speaker:

Yeah, that was, oh no, Thursday, sorry.

Speaker:

Thursday, yeah, day three.

Speaker:

Day three, the last final day.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right, that's right.

Speaker:

Wow.

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So, um, yeah, I was going, Oh, okay.

Speaker:

That was easy.

Speaker:

So does that mean they were a bit disorganized on the opposition side?

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Yeah, they were disorganized in the sense that they didn't think

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through hard enough on how to, how to, um, put their arguments.

Speaker:

Right.

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Um, but the other thing, as it went through and they were getting

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knocked back, knocked back, knocked back, you could sense that

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they were getting discouraged.

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You could sense the despair coming in, you know, well, that's what I felt as well.

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And by the time they got to that, which was their big moment, they were You know.

Speaker:

Right.

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They were, they were battered and bruised.

Speaker:

They battered and bruised and, and, and all the oomph and, and will

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to succeed at, gone the out of it.

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What about the opposition leader?

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Chris?

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Chris?

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Oh, Chrisley.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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What was his role in all this like?

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Um, well he, he held off right until.

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You know, that third day, I think it was, before he, he put his position,

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uh, and he came out, of course, against, uh, voluntary assisted dying.

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But the thing that I respect him for, you know, and, and, and, and this is

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important to say, that you've got to respect people and play the ball, not

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play the person, and I, I think that was important, and so, I respect him

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because he held firm on the fact that it should be a true conscience vote.

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And I truly believe he did that, you know, he, he, he stood firm on that.

Speaker:

So even though he voted against it, and I can't even remember his reasons.

Speaker:

Um, um, that was good to see.

Speaker:

Yeah, that was good to see.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

Um, so, so anything else?

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in that sort of lead up to the vote and that sort of thing that we might have

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missed that you'd like to talk about?

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker:

Um, we got a scare, I think it was on the Friday before because that, because

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this kicked off, we had the vigil on, um, on Monday with the, you know, photo

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shoot and all that stuff and, and then it's, it kicked off on Tuesday, but

Speaker:

on Friday, Thursday or Friday, might have even been Thursday, a rumor hit

Speaker:

the papers that, um, Cabinet was going to consider amendments, um, and, and

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bring that in at the last minute.

Speaker:

Well, yeah, like, like we're going, what?

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Yeah, but, but we're sort of warned in a sense that, um, from other states

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that, that we knew this was going to happen, but that was a little bit of

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a curve ball in a sense that, that, that was coming out of, out of cabinet.

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Um, and, and we got the word that cabinet would consider this on the Monday.

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So, um, all our, you know, groups and, you know, light, uh, uh, uh,

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allied groups and that, that were.

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supporting BAD, hit social media, send out emails to all their

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supporters, did all the thing.

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By that time we knew, everyone knew how to, how to, how to, um, to, to reach out.

Speaker:

Um, so they all reached out and apparently on the Friday, um,

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parliamentarians just got swamped.

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Absolutely swamped.

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A couple of, couple of parliamentarians emails went down.

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Yeah, it was just, it was just massive.

Speaker:

Um, but, but could that also been from the, from the other side as well?

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Could be from cherished.

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Cherished.

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The life could, could've been, yeah.

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Doing the same.

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Could've, could've been, but, um, we, we think there was a

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lot of our supporters that did.

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It's impossible to know for sure.

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Right.

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How many supporters are there, um, in dying with dignity there?

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I think.

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We, when we first, when we first saw stuff, we had 2, 000, okay,

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but I think it was something like 13, we got to the end of the race,

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which is a pretty good number.

Speaker:

That is a good number.

Speaker:

It's a pretty good number.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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Um, and.

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Is that mostly Queensland?

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That's mostly Queensland.

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Yeah.

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Um, but there, you know, like Go Gentle have got a heap, um, there

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are other groups around who've got their own supports and too.

Speaker:

So when you add it all up, it's quite a big number.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

Okay.

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And so.

Speaker:

So such a scare that then cabinet didn't.

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Yeah, well the other thing that happened, which is this is the inside story

Speaker:

here Yes, that's what we're here for.

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Shh, don't tell anyone.

Speaker:

Listen, don't tell anyone.

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But um, the other thing we had was it wasn't just that that was doing because

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that wasn't enough because you know You need people in the ear of the MPs, you

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know spot on, you know, right there on the spot and and so we had our Um, you know,

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our people who, um, were, had the ear of, of the various cabinet ministers, um,

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and they were, they were on the phones.

Speaker:

Um, and the, by this time we were, we had a, a strong relationship with the

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electrical trade unions, trade union, and, um, um, and we tried to build up

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a relationship with the unions per se, but We were in this situation where we

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couldn't be seen to be Labor, and so we had to step back a little bit, keep

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our foot in the door, but step back, but we reached out to the ETU because

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they had a guy, Peter Simpson, Simmo, they called him, who was might have

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been the secretary, I forget, of the ETU, and he got a terminal cancer, and

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he died about a year ago, and But he came on board as, you know, like, this

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is going to be the ETU's big thing.

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Which was great because, um, the E.

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T.

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U.

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took it up and, um, yeah, and they've got everyone's phone number.

Speaker:

And they've got everyone's phone number.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Um, and particularly the Deputy Premier's phone number.

Speaker:

Right.

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And also speaking to their organiser there, not the, not the secretary,

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but their organiser who was, you know, I was on the phone to on and off.

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And um, yeah.

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And he, on the Sunday, he said to me, don't worry about it.

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So, so I shouldn't have said that on podcast, Liam, but, but he wasn't doing

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anything more than everyone else was.

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He was lobbying.

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And, uh, it wasn't just him to, you know, our, our guys on the,

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you know, not the, to you, but our guys were doing the same thing.

Speaker:

Cherish the life of making the same phone calls.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker:

And twisting arms wherever they could.

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That's, So, by the time he said that, I think it was all over Red Rover.

Speaker:

They'd got the message over the last couple of days.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

Provided he wasn't passing over brown paper bags full of cash.

Speaker:

Or, actually, if it was a blind trust, maybe that would have been

Speaker:

A blind trust would have been fine.

Speaker:

Apparently.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker:

So, yeah, there was a I think there was just We had everyone primed, we said

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just, you know, it was basically saying, if we need you to move, move, and they

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did, and that swayed Cabinet, so Cabinet came out and said, no, there won't be

Speaker:

any amendments, we won't be bringing any amendments to the table, which was great.

Speaker:

Right, yeah, okay.

Speaker:

Alright, and the after party was pretty good?

Speaker:

Yeah, the after party, um, we went to, we actually ended up at the ETU, there

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we go, I'm saying, we're not Labor, but truly, the ETU were, were really

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great in terms of, um, the vigil.

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Cause as I said, it was me that sort of started the ball rolling on that.

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But, um, when, with, when I first started with, um, Dying With Dignity, um, well,

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it'd be our, the people like the person that keeps the sort of numbers and,

Speaker:

and, and supports that said, do you know the average age of DWDQ Oh, okay.

Speaker:

If the only change is 70, but there was an awful lot of older people

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in that, so, so we, so we were invited along to the E2U for the

Speaker:

Arthur celebration, which was great.

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And, uh, but it was like chalk and cheese.

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We had all these oldies there in our group and all these, you know,

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beefy, beefy guys there both.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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And, uh.

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Um, so yeah, that was, that was alright, so, we, we basically stayed long enough

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to be polite, and then we said, well, we gotta let these guys get on, and they're

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trying to be polite while us oldies are there, so, um, so then we went back and,

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um, Quite a few of our members were, um, took, um, rooms at the Park Royal,

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so it was close to Parliament House.

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And so, um, and one of our members, um, well actually I think it was his wife,

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um, booked out the Presidential Suite, so we called that DWDQ Headquarters.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right, so, yeah, so that was, that was good

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and so we got together there.

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It wasn't a big group, um, but it was the, the key people

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were there, which was great.

Speaker:

Yeah.

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And hopefully a nod to all the people over the DWDQ.

Speaker:

Decades.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Oh, yeah.

Speaker:

Who have been involved and who are no longer around,

Speaker:

it's been a long time coming.

Speaker:

It has, it has.

Speaker:

Um, so, um, we've been in action 35 years, although I can only

Speaker:

document it back to 30 years.

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There, there are people around who were there at the beginning.

Speaker:

But, it was like that sort of thing when you first started, back then it was

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like, you don't have any sort of formal sort of thing, it's just a group of

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people getting together and saying this is what we should do, so, Um, I can't,

Speaker:

you know, I can't quite nail it down, but I can definitely go back 30 years.

Speaker:

Um, so, so, that, that was, that was good, um, you know, and, and you're

Speaker:

right, there's all these people who, When it wasn't popular, you know,

Speaker:

when it was, you know, this fringe group, you know, just banging away.

Speaker:

Just, yeah.

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Probably thought, it's not going to happen in my lifetime,

Speaker:

but I've got to make a start.

Speaker:

Got to make a start.

Speaker:

And we owe, uh, we owe gratitude to these people for, for getting the

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ball rolling and just keeping it just, just enough in the public eye

Speaker:

that people are thinking about it.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So, um, okay.

Speaker:

So what I want to move on now was thinking about community action and how and

Speaker:

why dying with dignity was successful.

Speaker:

So I guess one thing, um, I'll start with is, um, you know, like the Labour Party

Speaker:

has done lots of things wrong around Australia and is still doing lots of

Speaker:

things wrong that are really annoying me.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

But it was a Labor Party policy that sort of got this done And it wasn't a

Speaker:

minor party that was getting it done So, you know in my eyes, I sort of

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think I don't know maybe in other states Was it a minor party have did minor

Speaker:

parties get things done in other states?

Speaker:

No, no, but this is where I say to people The fringe parties that are

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around that might have policies that you like, um, if you really want change,

Speaker:

it has to be one of the major parties.

Speaker:

It seems to me, this seems to me the classic example of having to

Speaker:

get into the Labor Party and get the policy changed to actually have a

Speaker:

law changed is Oh, that's absolutely really valid takeaway from this.

Speaker:

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Speaker:

There's no doubt that, uh, for voluntary system dying.

Speaker:

The party in power is the one that has to drive it, and in some

Speaker:

sense, you've got to make them, um, um, believe it's their idea.

Speaker:

There's no point creating the Dying With Dignity political party and

Speaker:

trying to get votes and get members and, you know, it's We, um, we had

Speaker:

a couple of opportunities to bring in independent, um, MPs, um, Yeah.

Speaker:

Um, you know, Paul, um, bill.

Speaker:

Bill, yeah.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

Bill.

Speaker:

Um, but we turned them down.

Speaker:

You know, we, we just thought it, it had no legs and it was a bit of a

Speaker:

waste of time and energy, so, right.

Speaker:

So, um, we turned them down and, um, we ran with this and I, I, I've told

Speaker:

you this story with, um, you know, how it, how it got up and, and you

Speaker:

know, with it's worth repeating.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

Gives this, this is a good story.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker:

So yeah, our other vice president.

Speaker:

Um, is a member of Labor, excuse me, a member of Labor, and she, you know,

Speaker:

clearly being in DWDQ, that was her big thing, and, and she really, really

Speaker:

joined because of this, you know, and, um, she, she was in the, you know, like

Speaker:

the, whatever the branch is, I don't know the structure, you might know it

Speaker:

better than me, but the, the branch structure was pushing that, and then,

Speaker:

you know, some people came on board, and then, then eventually they, they

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went to the regional, sort of, Um, meetings and that and, uh, and then

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it, and then it got onto the, um, she managed to get it before the, um, policy

Speaker:

committee or whatever it's called.

Speaker:

I'm going to get this slightly wrong, but, um, and then to her surprise, you know,

Speaker:

you know, the branch sort of support, they went to reason support and then the

Speaker:

committee, uh, the policy committee, um, And then they support, so every time,

Speaker:

she's thinking, I'm not going to get very far, Oh, okay, I've got one more step.

Speaker:

Um, and then eventually the state, um, the state Convention in Townsville.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker:

I think it was in Townsville, Queensland.

Speaker:

I think it was Townsville.

Speaker:

Um, and that was before the 2017 election, I think it was.

Speaker:

Um, so, so it got onto that, um, onto the agenda there, but Um, at that stage,

Speaker:

I think Palaszczuk was probably against it, but, you know, wouldn't come out

Speaker:

and say, but I think she was more on the right of the party and, and, and

Speaker:

so it got put on the agenda, but got put right at the end of the agenda

Speaker:

because what happens in Labour state conventions usually is that they don't

Speaker:

get to the last items on the agenda.

Speaker:

That's why it's important to get it in first.

Speaker:

But they zipped through this agenda and there it was out there, you

Speaker:

know, we're going to vote on it.

Speaker:

Bang.

Speaker:

It was voted in and.

Speaker:

Everyone's sort of stunned and here it is, it's party policy, so that

Speaker:

was a great win for us, you know, and it just shows you how one person

Speaker:

can sometimes just, yeah, yeah.

Speaker:

She started at a branch level and has worked it through the system

Speaker:

over presumably a couple of years.

Speaker:

And then, you know, as it moved forward, there were others that came

Speaker:

on board, so it wasn't in the end just her that was pushing it down.

Speaker:

And, um, there isn't an, even an organisation with Labour could.

Speaker:

In, in the labor organization called Labor for Dignity too, which, um Right.

Speaker:

Um, you know, became strong probably really because of the

Speaker:

ETU, the Electrical Trades Union.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker:

Interesting.

Speaker:

So, um, and, and how did you get involved?

Speaker:

Correct?

Speaker:

Um, well I was trying to think back when I got involved, but that

Speaker:

goes back to secular party days.

Speaker:

And so the secular party involved in this and, and you were too, you how

Speaker:

were talking about how to get the message out and all that sort of thing.

Speaker:

And, uh, the talk came around to, um, you know, we need to

Speaker:

reach out to organisations.

Speaker:

So I thought, I probably needed some sort of connection with them.

Speaker:

And, you know, because of my medical history, I thought, yeah, well,

Speaker:

this would be a good one for me.

Speaker:

And the other one was, um, Because I've got a, my wife's got, her

Speaker:

nephew is trans, I joined PFLAG and I joined Dying With Dignity.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

Um, and uh, I just went along to meetings for, you know, a couple of

Speaker:

years and not really doing anything.

Speaker:

And then, um, there became a vacancy on the committee and they asked me,

Speaker:

and I thought, Oh, okay, this is it.

Speaker:

Better do something.

Speaker:

Keep talking the talk and better walk the walk.

Speaker:

Well you were in the sweet spot of just recently retired and you

Speaker:

probably retired a bit earlier than you wanted to for health reasons.

Speaker:

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker:

So you had Um, time, energy, and you still have your marbles, so you're

Speaker:

in a sweet spot of productivity.

Speaker:

Well, I have my marbles, I think I'd argue that, but, and um, you probably

Speaker:

don't realise that because I joined the Cyclopane not long before you.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

And I was under a chemotherapy fog at the time, I really wasn't with it,

Speaker:

and I know sometimes you will look at me and go, What's he on about?

Speaker:

You know, I was completely spaced out and if I wasn't spaced out, I

Speaker:

wouldn't have done stupid things like join committees and that.

Speaker:

And I warned them.

Speaker:

I said, look, I'm not really with it as yet.

Speaker:

And, um, but I improved with age.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Very good.

Speaker:

Very good.

Speaker:

So, um, so I'm interested in, you know, often with voluntary groups,

Speaker:

it's a core group of, you know, Four or five people who do all the work

Speaker:

and not much else happens outside.

Speaker:

Like how many genuinely, you know, what's the sort of structure in terms

Speaker:

of active people working hard and doing stuff and, you know, every week

Speaker:

and others who are maybe just once in a blue moon when required, just, I'm

Speaker:

interested in how many people would be.

Speaker:

It's the same as any other group.

Speaker:

So there was the eight committee members who just worked their guts out, you know,

Speaker:

But, to be fair, um, you know, in regional areas, um, there were core members there.

Speaker:

So what we tried to do was have an elect what we call an electoral

Speaker:

coordinator in each of the electorates.

Speaker:

Um, and often in most electorates that would come down to one person, you

Speaker:

know, that's the best they can do.

Speaker:

Um, And again it came back to how much we could support them, and unfortunately the

Speaker:

ECs in in electorates where it was all sewn up didn't get much support at all.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

But they did do things like, you know, write to the local papers and, you know,

Speaker:

put social media things up and Right.

Speaker:

And they were valuable in the sense that if a newspaper said, look we need someone

Speaker:

in that electorate, have you got anyone?

Speaker:

Right, okay.

Speaker:

Okay, we've got someone.

Speaker:

We'll find someone.

Speaker:

We'll find someone.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

But, there were, um, a few people, you know, you know, and when I say few, it

Speaker:

would come down to like Like four, five, six, something like that, um, in some key

Speaker:

areas and, um, we had a core No, we only really had one major person in Harvey

Speaker:

Bay who was really, really good, um, and they just did a massive amount of work.

Speaker:

You know, if you have one person that's doing a heap of work, they're

Speaker:

worth a hundred, um, and we had a really good group in Bundaberg,

Speaker:

as I said, and Bundaberg is the interesting one because Bundaberg

Speaker:

The Labor guy got in by nine votes.

Speaker:

Nine votes.

Speaker:

And that is because of DWDQ, because they were working their butts off.

Speaker:

And they held forums and things like that, and at one of the forums,

Speaker:

the um, I shouldn't say this story should I, but let's just say the LMP

Speaker:

guy slipped up, okay, and annoyed a lot of people in the community.

Speaker:

Nine votes, remember?

Speaker:

He annoyed more than nine people, I can tell you that.

Speaker:

So, um, I won't go into anything more than that.

Speaker:

But I'm sure, um, MPs might mess up like other people too.

Speaker:

But he messed up at the wrong time for him, unfortunately.

Speaker:

And maybe in retrospect he says, Oh, gee, I shouldn't have said that, or whatever.

Speaker:

Um, so So, we know that Labor owes us in Bundaberg.

Speaker:

Okay, so you had a good person in Bundaberg, for example, who says,

Speaker:

I'll, I'll host an event and, um, help me out, what should I do?

Speaker:

Or, and you say, well, hire a hall and we'll help you spread the word.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker:

Well, some of us will even show up, maybe.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah, we did, we did.

Speaker:

Um, so, At one stage, they were, um, I wasn't part of that, but there was a,

Speaker:

we called it a robe trip where we'd go round to the major centres that we needed

Speaker:

to do and as far north as Townsville.

Speaker:

I don't think we went to Cairns.

Speaker:

So you hire a hall somewhere, and how do you get people to turn up?

Speaker:

Uh, then you start, um, you, if you've got an MP on site, and it's a, you

Speaker:

know, that they want, then you can use their contacts to get out there.

Speaker:

And also, um, Um, get them to speak.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

So, so that, so it depends on whether you're doing it as a community thing

Speaker:

or an MP sponsored one as well.

Speaker:

So, so it depends a little bit.

Speaker:

Um, and sometimes there'll be something like on the Gold Coast, we had a really

Speaker:

strong group on the Gold Coast too.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

And they were the, the, the They were part of the Gold Coast, they called

Speaker:

themselves the Gold Coast Retirees, um, and they had all those, you know, they

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had a whole heap of people who were retirees, Gold Coast Retirees, and so, so

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they were, they were basically pushing, um, these forums and that down there.

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Okay, so they would say, we're going to host this forum, and they'd

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approach the local member, for example, and say, we're going to have

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all these people, all these voters, would you like to come to the event?

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Yeah.

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And would you like to?

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Um, let your constituents know via all of the means and channels

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that you've got available.

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And, and then you just hope that a hundred or two hundred people will show up.

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Yeah, we didn't have money to put in sort of ads in newspapers, I

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think, so it's far too expensive.

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Um, so you have to rely on social media and word of mouth.

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Um, and in an LMP type electorate, which, you know, I guess Corumbin is, um, then

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that's pretty hard because you're not going to get any support from them.

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Yeah.

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So who pays for the hall?

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And who pays for the PA system and all that sort of stuff?

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Um, well most of the halls and that have their own system already.

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Um, that's a really good question.

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I might have to talk to the treasurer about that, but we did have money.

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We had some money.

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Yeah.

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We just didn't have a lot of money, so, so things like that would,

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you know, the cost would be borne, and a lot of our, you know, little

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groups, um, they would, they would, they had Find a free hall somewhere.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Or, if the MP is sponsoring it, he would know a place for free.

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Yeah, that's right, usually there was some way around it, yeah.

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Right, okay, and you might just have to put on T and Bickies or something.

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Yeah, T and Bickies, that's right, yeah, we, you know, we were in

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the Um, age demographic, where Tim Vickies works every time.

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And then gather some names and you sort of get them to try and fill in something.

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So you've got to contact.

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Yeah, that's right.

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And then the other thing is you contact the local media, because yes.

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The interesting thing about media is you don't need many people before it looks

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like a crowd when you're taking a photo.

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Yeah.

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So even if you have small numbers.

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Yep.

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People can't see outside the photos, so they don't know how

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many people are on the sides, yeah.

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Right, okay, yeah.

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But then again, I'm thinking somewhere like Bundaberg, not much would probably

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happen, so Oh no, look, what surprised me, it was completely the other way around.

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When we do events in Brisbane, it was like No one would turn up.

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Yeah, well, people would turn up, but compared to the population of

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Brisbane, the numbers were small.

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But if you go to Bundaberg, you get a whole heap of people there.

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Yes.

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You go to Townsville, you get a heap of people there, you know, Harvey

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May, you get a heap of people.

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So they don't have the distractions.

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They don't have the distractions.

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And they actually want to catch up with their mates.

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Yeah, that's right.

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That's right.

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So, so it's exactly the opposite to what you think.

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Yeah.

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No, no, that's, that doesn't surprise me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That doesn't surprise me.

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Yeah.

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But I'm just thinking, like, local towns, do they even have a newspaper,

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a Bundaberg newspaper anymore?

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Nah, well, see, most of them, a lot of them closed down

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about a year ago, that's right.

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So, you've got to remember, this is going back a fair way when we were doing this.

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When we still had regional newspapers.

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When we still had regional newspapers, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And the other thing we would do with, um, Um, we're Market Stores, you know,

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the markets, you know, you do something like that, um, and, um, Hand Out Pampers,

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although with, with stores a lot, um, with the markets, you know, unless you're high

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that you've got a store and pay the money, Um, you'd have to stand outside as people

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went into the market and Hand Out Pampers.

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Right, okay.

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Which we didn't.

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And, oh, oh, and Shopping Sounds.

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It's amazing how many shopping centres would let you go in and have a little

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table there and hand out pamphlets and stuff and that, yeah, so we, those sort

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of things were in the early days when it was just trying to get information

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out to the community, not concentrating on really MPs very much, it was just

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sort of trying to get the message out.

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Yes.

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Yep, okay.

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Okay, so, um, so how did, how did you communicate?

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In your key management group, like, are you on a Facebook Messenger group,

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or are you via an email group, or?

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Yeah, so, so, uh, just, just, uh, you know, one thing there, um, um, it's

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important to try and get a committee who are open to listening to each

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other and trying to get consensus.

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I know before I came on board, um, the, uh, just backing up a little

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bit, our President Joss Hall who took over, I can't remember when she took

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over, it was before my time, but um.

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Um, she took over and she basically said things were pretty antiquated

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in terms of, you know, it was still letter writing to members and stuff

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like that, you know, like Fax machines.

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Yeah, yeah, that's it.

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Well, I don't think they were that sophisticated.

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We were really talking about an older demographic who, who's bored up with

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writing letters and stuff to me.

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So, so she realized that things had to be modernized a bit and, um,

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And she just, just the other day she said to me, I really wanted to

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get some younger people on board.

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You know, younger is like me, in my 60s sort of thing.

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And, uh, you know, it just, just shows you.

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So, uh, to try and, you know, get this going because it

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was really languishing a bit.

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So, so that's the first thing.

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So, but to get back to your question, um, yeah, there, there are a few little

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hiccups in terms of people coming onto the committee who didn't fit in.

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It was sort of, you know, a little bit like.

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It wasn't really my way or the highway, they were just sort of focused in

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one direction and that would cause friction because they wouldn't, they

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were, you know, set in their ways in a sense and I'm not saying that in

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a bad way or anything like that but they basically moved on until we got

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a, until there was a committee that was sort of open to listening to each

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other and working together and um, so she did a really good job on that.

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So we did have a committee.

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That could work closely together, and I learned, you know, I was a little bit sort

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of like, oh, how do you contact people, and you do emails and stuff like that,

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but I rapidly got the idea that just ring them, you know, just get on the phone,

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talk to them, if it's important, you know, I felt if it was important enough for

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me to talk to them, I would ring them.

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Right.

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Meaning another committee member.

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Another committee member, that's right.

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And we would have meetings on a regular basis, depending on what was happening.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Um.

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A physical meeting?

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Or, it had to be, I guess, remote in recent times.

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Yeah, um It was Zoom pretty well from the beginning.

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Right, okay.

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I'm trying to remember if we had any, because we had, you know, some of

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our committee weren't in Brisbane.

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Yes.

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So we had, um, we had, at one stage there was a committee person from the

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Gold Coast and we had, for a long time we had one from the Sunshine Coast and

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Townsville, Bundaberg, Cairns, Cairns.

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So it had to be Zoom.

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So, for example, if the person in Bundaberg says, I want to, I think I

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should run a get together, then you would just ring a few of the committee

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members and say, Joe Blow's doing this.

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That's right.

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Are you free on this date?

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Let's just go.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So it was sort of, you know, that sort of thing.

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And, um, yeah, so, and the other thing was sort of, when I first joined was

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sort of just finding where did I fit in?

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You know, in the first meetings I was just listening and there's all

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these people talking about different names and this and I thought, who

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the hell are they talking about?

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I know nothing about this.

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So it takes a little while to sort of find your place in things.

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And then, um, yeah, then, so.

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So it was a pretty good committee because everyone had their sort of.

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A little bit of a forte on what they could do and, um, and, um, and,

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and have their roles, as it were.

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So what was your role?

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Um, my role, well, I can start off as Vice President.

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Yeah, but your activity role?

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My main role initially was sort of helping with modernize the committee in some ways.

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So, you know, um, and I looked at the IT side of things and I'm not an IT

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person, but, but it was sort of like, Well, we have to do something here, so,

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um, we have to get it professionally.

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We need to spend money to make money.

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Or fund, I mean, I say make money.

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Yes, that's right.

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So, so I looked at that and had all these great huge flowcharts about how

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it should work and stuff like that.

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So I did that, but my other big role for me Um, was writing submissions and

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letters and all that sort of stuff.

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So, um, and, um, one of the things that helped was that I could put this

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capital D R in front of my name and, you know, to get a bit of, you know,

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you know, kudos, you know, and, uh, and so, so yeah, so I spent a lot of time

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doing submissions and stuff like that.

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And, um, there were false, Not false, but you know, rabbit holes, you'd go

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down a bit, and I knew that I would do a lot of work on something and then

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that would come to nothing, but that was part of the process, um, of getting

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there, so, so yeah, and I guess the big submission I did was for the QLRC, the

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Queensland Law Reform Commission, so, so they asked for, um, when I was in the

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stage of Palisade, I asked them to look at the legislation, I spent an inordinate

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amount of time just Just going through with a fine tooth comb, you know, making

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suggestions and, and, and that to try and fine, fine tune things and point

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out where there were problems in that.

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Um, and that's not saying anything against, um, White and Wilma, but

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it's not just about the legislation, it's about also implementation

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and that stuff like that.

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So, and also putting it in a way that, you know, People could understand it and that,

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so, so, you know, I got a bit of kick out seeing some things in the, in the, in that

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808 pages, I go, hang on, that's mine!

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Yes, you mentioned you thought, I've copied and pasted my, my work.

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Yeah, that's right, so, uh, yeah, it's only small things, but,

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uh, But yeah, so I, I did an awful lot of that sort of thing.

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Mm-Hmm.

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With the election, I spent an awful lot of time ringing around and in fact

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I was just on the phone all the time and that, and, and Jenny and my family

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were, you know, my wife and my family were so, what the hell are you doing?

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You're just on the phone's ringing all the time you're talking.

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Yes.

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'cause when you are, you know, it's like an election campaign.

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You're just organizing things.

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It just takes an another amount of time.

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So, so those are the sort of things that I did a lot of.

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Yeah.

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Um, and in terms of all the contacts that have been developed,

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is that, is that in a database now or is it just in everybody's head?

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Their own personal contacts?

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Yeah, personal contacts, that's right.

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Um, yeah, so we did keep a bit of a database on that, like, you know, like

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you're supposed to, and that was part of the modernization thing is Yeah.

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Having a good database so that you could go back to it, but yeah.

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Um, so you say, well there's, you know, this member's got this sort

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of skill and that if you need the.

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Call on it and that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So just to finish off, looking to the future.

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So, um, you know, would you be campaigning, I don't think campaigning

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is the word, against no voters in future?

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I'm just thinking where there was maybe a Labor person who voted against it,

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would you be reminding their electorate, this is what this person did, or is

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there pressure to be applied because of fear of repeal legislation in future?

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Yeah.

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Um.

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Yeah.

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I would hope that, um, we would get a sense of it, you know, because there's

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enough contacts that people would pick up the phone and say, Hey Craig, you

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know, or whoever's on the community.

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Like I've heard this rumour from so and so, you know, gee,

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I'm a bit worried, you know.

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About a repeal.

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Yeah, about a repeal.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so I think that would give cause to, uh, remind the

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constituents of that electorate that he voted no, or she voted no.

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If that came up that way.

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Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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And, and then you've obviously, there's an implementation phase now.

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Yes.

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So there's a lot of work still to be done in educating, well,

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developing procedures, forms.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Have to be developed.

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And you guys, obviously the government does that, but

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they'll be seeking input or not.

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We need to, we need to keep close scrutiny of what's going on and, uh, make sure

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that we've got a foot in the door if, you know, if they're thinking of something,

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can we somehow have a look at it?

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Yes.

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Um, before it's sort of goes to the printer or whatever.

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Yes.

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Um, for review.

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So that's gonna be one of our jobs and roles.

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Um, we will be relying a little bit on one of our We had a coalition.

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We had a coalition of DWDQ, Doctors for Assisted Dying

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Choice, and the Clem Jones Group.

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Um, and we worked well together.

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Um, uh, you know, there was also, um, Um, Everill Compton's, um, Christians

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for a Voluntary Assisted Dying.

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So, we had a coalition which worked really well together.

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Um, so, I think the doctors groups are going to have to step up to mark

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a little bit and get You know, from their experience in Victoria and

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Western Australia, um, and they're in close contact, you know, with

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each other and talking about these things on a, on a professional basis.

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So they've got that, um, experience on the ground and they're the ones that are

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going to say, hang on, this just doesn't work in Victoria or Western Australia.

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We, we must make sure this doesn't go through.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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In regulation.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So that is one of the advantages of being late to the party is you get to Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Is you get to learn from other people's mistakes.

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That's right.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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Um, yeah.

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And, um, um, yeah.

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So that's, that's a big job that's coming up.

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I haven't thought about it at all.

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Just, I just couldn't put my mind to it.

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And being the medical guy in the committee, I can

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see a lot of that for you.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um, we'll see.

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Yeah.

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So, um, yeah.

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And of course, Other States.

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So I saw somebody in the chat room before mentioned about what's the

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story in Other States and I understand New South Wales, for example, is

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the last state that doesn't have it.

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Other than the Territories.

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Other than the Territories, that's right.

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Um, and I feel sorry, uh, Marshall Perrin, who was the Chief, uh, Northern

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Territory Chief, um, Minister, um, is in, he belongs to DWDQ, he lives on the

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Sunshine Coast and he's been a great help in terms of giving us encouragement and,

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and making comment on things as well and, uh, we've been in close contact, you know,

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on and off through this whole process, um, and he was at our celebration at

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DWDQ headquarters, you know, and that's, uh, so he, he's a great guy and you met

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him, you met him when you, uh, that was Marshall Perrin, yeah, yeah, that's right.

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He's in our heart.

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I had to go to QUT for, for my work.

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And as I walking into QUT, you passed Parliament House and I knew that the

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debates were going on and I just sort of looked across and there you were waiting

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to go in, scuttled across and said hello.

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It was just so, so that was Marshall Paradise I was talking with you.

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Right?

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Right.

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Um, so is, are you guys, what's happening in New South Wales then?

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Okay, so.

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So, we got a lot of support, and across Australia, each DWD

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has been supporting each other.

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Um, and we got, we got financial support from Victoria, um, South Australia and

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Tasmania, because they'd been through it and they had funds left over that

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they put in, because we, we basically spent everything before the election.

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We said, look, if we don't get pro VAD in, We're not going anywhere.

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We're dead in the water.

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Um, so we just said, well, the hell with it.

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That's going to spend every last dime, effectively, on getting this through.

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And it proved, it proved good.

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But we didn't have the sort of funds that Victoria and Western

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Australia had to do their campaigns.

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They had heaps of money, you know, and we were just dirt poor.

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So, um, we reached out and they kindly gave us money to help us get us back

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on our feet in Um, you know, putting ads and, you know, boosting Facebook

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and, and all that sort of thing.

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How come they had more money than you?

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What was your, what was your It was partly, um, our fault in terms that

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previous committees weren't as, um, geared up to that, you know,

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so it just depends on the makeup of committees, how good they are.

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And some, some, um, DWDs were, um, much better at fundraising than that.

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And that was, that was a big, Downside, we just left our run too late to do

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that, um, Go Gentle were there and in some ways they hoovered up the donations

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a little bit, um, which was unfortunate for us, but, um, I was philosophical

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about them saying, well, You know, when it comes to the crunch, they've got to

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step up the mark, otherwise they'll, you know, they'll look like ears.

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And they did step up the mark, I've got to admit, yeah.

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Um, so, so they put money into, um, you know, advertising and stuff like

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that, which, um, we couldn't do.

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And they, they also gave us The other thing we got from them was expertise

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in terms of PR sort of stuff and that, and as well, which was great, because

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they had experience in doing this in the other states, um, so they were good.

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But, the other, so we, you know, so besides funds, the DWD that helped us

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the most was actually New South Wales, because, It was in their interest.

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They, when it looked like we were going to get it through, and, and to be

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honest, we, the reason we didn't get much support initially was that every time

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we took Queensland, well, it'll be the last one, it'll be like a hundred years

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before it gets it through sort of thing.

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So when it looked like we were going to get it, you know, people

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suddenly got excited who normally wouldn't have been excited.

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DWD New South Wales have been incredibly supportive to us, uh, and a very

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professional, um, unit, um, much more professional than us in a sense.

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Um, and, but they knew that if we could get it through, it sets

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their argument so much easier.

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So the best help we've given to New South Wales is to get this through.

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Yeah.

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So now it's the embarrassment of being the only state that has it.

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Right.

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So is it Labour Party policy in New South Wales?

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Um.

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I don't know about the policies of the various, um, parties but I believe

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the Labor, um, leader is against it.

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Berra Jicklian is against it, but um, but the Nationals, um Hang on, isn't

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Berra Jicklian's Liberal, isn't she?

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Yeah, that's right.

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And, and so the Labor is leader, whoever that is Yeah, I can't remember his name.

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Is against it.

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Yes.

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Right, okay.

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But the Nationals, um, what's that Berra Um, Barro.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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He's in favor of it, so.

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Right.

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So they're up against it because Right.

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Unless you get Yeah.

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This, well, this is the key to Queensland was, was the

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getting it part of the policy.

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Yeah, that's right.

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And also, um, you know, Anastasia eventually coming out and

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saying, I support this, you know, that's, that's massive.

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It's absolutely massive.

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They have the, you know, like in in Victoria it was,

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um, Dan Andrews, you know.

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Yeah.

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It's.

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It can't be overstated how important it is to have the Premier behind something.

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Right.

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Okay.

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Why doesn't the New South Wales opposition leader in favour of it?

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Is this personal?

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I don't know.

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That could be a personal thing.

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Yeah.

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Honestly, I have no I've been so focused on Queensland, I

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have no idea and, yeah, yeah.

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Presumably, yeah, then attention will turn to New South Wales and Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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If anyone can push it from a grassroots point of view,

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it's the New South Wales team.

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I, uh They are just fabulous.

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They really, really are good.

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Um, in fact, they sent us down a bit of a, how about we go for a time of one?

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We don't, the systems I have don't charge me extra money, it just

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keeps shite out of the shark tank.

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Yeah, there's, um, it was, um, interesting that, uh, in New South

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Wales, they, um, um, at one stage they formed their own party to, um, Push it.

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And the reason for that is that you get a lot of free advertising

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if you're actually a candidate.

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Yes, yes.

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People suddenly say, you know, a politician, um, journalist

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suddenly want to interview you and You get a seat at the, at the,

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um, meetings before the election.

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That's right.

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There's a bit of a town hall or whatever it is.

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And it's on that bit of paper, you know.

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I forget what their party was, what the party was called.

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But they did that and, um, it, it stymied me a little bit because one

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of the things I was, I had to do was I had to rewrite the constitution of DWD

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because these are the jobs that I ended up doing, uh, or participating was, but

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I was the main mover and also getting, um, we didn't have donation status,

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you know, uh, charity status at all.

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Um, and DWD New South Wales, um, didn't either.

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And I believe they're going for it now.

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And the reason they told us was that they wanted to do this party thing.

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And if you, as soon as you charity, you're stuck, you can't be political.

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So.

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So, um, at one stage there when it was looking like, oh gee, even though

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it's Labor Party policy, it's not going anywhere because the Premier

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hasn't thrown the weight behind it.

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And so, so, in New South Wales.

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No, in Queensland.

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Oh, sorry.

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Yeah, sorry, in Queensland.

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So, so, just based on what we were told from DW, the New South Wales, uh, we

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actually at one stage started the process of getting a political party up and

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running just so publicity from doing that and, um, would be, would be really great.

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So, uh, Here's me writing another constitution and doing

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all this stuff for this party.

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And I remember it was like, okay, do we or don't we push the,

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I got everything ready to go.

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You know, spoke to, spoke to the electoral commission, had it all geared

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up, spoke to them and all ready to go.

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Is anyone going to press the big red button?

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And then it was sort of like, it was as close as that.

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And then, um, um, the committee finally decided as a no.

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And as it turned out, that was the right decision.

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So really the key for New South Wales, if it's not already, would

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be to get it on as Labour Party.

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Policy.

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Yeah.

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Really is the next step they have to take.

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Yeah, because you can't see the Liberals coming on board.

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Yeah, so if you are in the chat room and you know the story on New South

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Wales Labor policies and whether it is their policy, let us know before

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we wrap up in the next minute or two.

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But if you are a member of the Labor Party, John Simmons out there, Um,

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see what the story is in terms of kicking it off, getting it, if it's

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not, then start at the branch and move it up and see what happens.

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That's what happened here.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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So, um, yeah.

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Right, Craig, well, I reckon we've probably covered it all.

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I, is it?

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I think so.

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Lemme just see, um, uh, Allison.

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Look, yeah, can I say a special thanks to Alison, you know, she was, she was great.

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Um, she knows what I'm talking about.

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Uh, I don't want to mention names, but she did her, her bit and that's great.

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And, um, she was at the, at the rally as well.

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And, uh, um, so yeah, hopefully the next cow off the rank is parents for a secular

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state school can, can get something up in Queensland, uh, which would be great.

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Uh, say, I want to say hello to Sarah.

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Scott too, you know, cause he, he was, he was doing his, he was, even

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though I cherish life and even though it was, it was excruciating for him

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reading the Cherish Life stuff and if there's anything of relevance he would

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forward it on to me cause I, I honestly didn't want to read it unless I had to.

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You didn't want to subject yourself to it.

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Yeah, that's right.

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So hello to Scott, um, who else am I supposed to, oh, there's so many

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people that, uh, contributed in that.

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You remember Frank Jordan?

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He was, he had a bit, he was in the mix a bit there with the humanists as

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well, so, so, um, yeah, so there's.

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Lots of people, yeah, yeah, yeah, to do with it all.

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Well, good luck, Craig, with all the work that's still to be done in terms

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of just the regulations, the paperwork that has to be put in place for all

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this stuff over the next period of time.

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So, that's just going to be as time consuming, I can see, as

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everything else that's been going on.

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So, um They're great achievements.

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So, dear listener, a victory.

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A victory.

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In the rational, secular, humanist world.

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Yes.

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Oh, can I say thank you to Meredith Doig and the Rationalist Society.

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They were great too.

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There's so many names I'm going to forget, but Meredith was great as well.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, well done to you and your team.

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And good luck with just the regulations and have a good break.

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I will, I intend to.

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And, uh, and dear listener, I hope you enjoyed that.

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Um, that was good just to get the behind the scenes, um, and for the history of

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it, you know, um, it's good to put it on the record as to how it all happened.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah, and thank you Trevor for giving me a chance to debrief, because Yep.

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That's great.

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Yep, and if people ask you in future, well, what did you do, how do you work?

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You can just say, well, go watch episode 313, and it's all there.

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Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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Alright, do this.

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Now, next week, um, I'll be back with the panel with Joe and Shea

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and I get to talk about submarines.

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And boy have I got some stuff to say about submarines and our shitty government

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who knows nothing about submarines in our Terrible media who know nothing

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about submarines and I am just going to go off my tree about submarines.

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So I have a good rant about submarines.

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So, um, so yeah, so enjoy.

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We'll talk to you next week.

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Um, thanks for tuning in.

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Bye for now.

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Bye.

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Bye, dear listener.

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Wes Hull, good folk in podcast.

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Deep Throtter here.

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A follow up from the last podcast in relation to Iren Fuster's

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fascination with the Magna Carta.

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Questions to me were, how different was the English in 1215 if the original

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words of the Magna Carta were read out?

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Would we have understood any of it?

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Iron Fustus ye olde English was actually ye olde Latin.

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Legal documents at the time were written in Latin.

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Some court documents were in French, and often not even Norman French.

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Apologies to Joe the tech guy.

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So in 1215, lawyers and the church were doing the same thing as today.

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by speaking in technical jargon or a foreign language.

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Keep the peasants bamboozled and in the dark, in other words.

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There is a further complication.

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The first complete translation into English was in 1534.

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In 1541, someone issued two pages outlining printing

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mistakes in the 1534 edition.

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There are three clauses of Magna Carta that still remain on the statute.

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in England and Wales.

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The first one is the example that Iron Fist used.

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I checked it against the uncorrected 1534 edition, and it is the

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same as the modern statute.

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I then hunted out a better translation from the Latin.

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Although the wording is a lot different, it does to me mean the same, although

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lawyers might have a field day with it.

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1215 was the time of early Middle English, which is an area of interest for me.

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So for fun, I translated the first sentence into the English of the time,

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but I took the liberty of not using any pesky Norman French words, so the

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peasants of the time could understand.

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Again, apologies to Joe the tech guy.

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So here it is, in the better modern English translation, and

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then in early Middle English.

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In the first place, we have conceded to God, and by this our present

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charter confirmed for us And our heirs forever, that the English Church shall

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be free, and shall have her rights entire, and her liberties inviolate.

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And we wish that it be thus observed.

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Alreferest a haven where to go, dear thuvud.

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And be this, uh, reet.

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Yetende for us, and our heritage is not silent, That the English Church shall

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be free, And shall have her right so long, And her peace with broken, And

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us, lusteth, that it be with us forever.

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So that's me.

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Ich danke Joe from Dave's Rotter.

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