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Episode 314 - How Dying With Dignity Successfully Lobbied for VAD Laws
Topics:
In this episode, we hear from Dr. Craig Glasby about how "Dying With Dignity" successfully lobbied to get VAD laws passed in Queensland.
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Celebrating a Secular Victory
01:02 Diving Deep into Voluntary Assisted Dying Laws
01:20 The Strategy and Success of Lobbying for Dying With Dignity
02:42 Analyzing the Final Vote and Political Dynamics
05:20 The Power of Community Engagement and Targeted Campaigns
10:03 Rallying Support and the Impact of Public Demonstrations
20:17 Navigating the Legislative Process and Overcoming Opposition
35:26 Reflecting on the Journey and the Future of VAD Legislation
44:21 The Power of Community Mobilization
46:02 The Inside Story: Strategies and Allies
48:52 Celebrating Victory and Reflecting on the Journey
51:33 The Importance of Major Party Support in Legislative Change
56:00 The Role of Personal Involvement and Grassroots Efforts
01:11:48 Maintaining Momentum: The Future of Dying with Dignity
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Transcript
We need to talk about ideas.
Speaker:Good ones and bad ones.
Speaker:We need to learn stuff about the world.
Speaker:We need an honest, intelligent, thought provoking, and entertaining
Speaker:review of what the hell happened on this planet in the last seven days.
Speaker:We need to sit back and listen.
Speaker:To the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:Hello and welcome dear listener.
Speaker:This is the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove Podcast, uh, episode 313.
Speaker:A special episode for you.
Speaker:It's not often that we get a victory to celebrate in the secular world,
Speaker:but we do actually have one tonight.
Speaker:So a special episode I have with me, the one and only deep throw to Craig Glasby.
Speaker:Vice President of Dying With Dignity, welcome aboard, Craig, and
Speaker:congratulations on a solid victory.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Thank you, Fist, and yeah, it's sweet to win.
Speaker:It's sweet to win, and hello, dear listeners.
Speaker:Yes, so, um, people who've listened to the podcast before, we've already gone
Speaker:through the Voluntary Assisted Dying Laws.
Speaker:That was back in episode 299, so we're not going to repeat it.
Speaker:What the laws are and what's involved and how you go about
Speaker:accessing voluntary assisted dying.
Speaker:What I really want to do in this episode was talk to Craig about, um, how the
Speaker:vote went, just the lobbying efforts in the final weeks and days, uh, what
Speaker:happened in Parliament, the speeches, anything that struck him as interesting.
Speaker:And then we're going to also look at, um, you know, this, this is an unusual
Speaker:success story and it needs to be examined in some respect as to how to
Speaker:conduct a successful lobbying effort when you're not a powerful coal lobby
Speaker:or some other lobby with lots of money.
Speaker:So I want to talk to Craig about how Dying With Dignity did it.
Speaker:Um, what's, what, what were the efforts?
Speaker:What were the things on the ground and?
Speaker:If Craig was to be involved in another group on another I thought
Speaker:Craig just had a heart attack.
Speaker:Too early for that, too early.
Speaker:Yeah, just hypothetically, um, what lessons that you've learned and, you
Speaker:know, for example, in my head I'm thinking things like the religious instruction
Speaker:lessons or chaplaincy or getting the census question changed or other things.
Speaker:What should group community groups be doing?
Speaker:What lessons have been learned?
Speaker:How do we actually affect change?
Speaker:So those are the sorts of things that we'd like to talk about tonight.
Speaker:So if you manage to catch the live stream, please say hello if you're in the chat
Speaker:and we might get to your questions.
Speaker:But, um, in any event, um, so Craig, um, the final vote,
Speaker:61 in favour and 30 against.
Speaker:Mmm, yeah, that was, um, along the way, you know, we were thinking,
Speaker:oh, Jeannie might miss by one.
Speaker:And I'm talking, you know, quite a few months ago.
Speaker:And that became apparent that probably we would get it across the line
Speaker:just through our own talking to MPs and getting a feel for the land.
Speaker:And also the hint that there were some LNP, uh, MPs that would come across.
Speaker:So then when we got the sense that, um, yeah, we were going to get
Speaker:there, then our strategy changed a bit because we were thinking ahead.
Speaker:To when government would change, LNP would get in, eventually something will happen.
Speaker:And we're thinking, we have to have an emphatic twin so that they're
Speaker:going to think twice, um, about you know, making any changes, you know,
Speaker:just put a bit of fear in them.
Speaker:Um, so then all of a sudden we had a bit of a meeting and we were in a
Speaker:coalition, um, we were in a coalition with some other groups and um, we
Speaker:had a meeting and um, The figure came out, um, we have to make 60.
Speaker:I thought, oh, that's impossible.
Speaker:I thought, gee, that's not gonna happen.
Speaker:Um, but, um, the person that put it forward was adamant
Speaker:that's what we had to get.
Speaker:Um, and in the lead up in the week before, I put the numbers together
Speaker:myself, and I thought we had 56.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I thought, no, I'm going to make 60.
Speaker:But, lo and behold, we got our 60, yeah, that's right.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:So there were obviously a lot of unknowns in there, in the lead up.
Speaker:People who just refused to say?
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:All the way along, um, when we were trying to tackle.
Speaker:And this was before the election, you know, well before the election, where
Speaker:we were putting them on the spot all the time, but they would say, I need to
Speaker:see the legislation, and I need to see amendments, I need to see all this stuff.
Speaker:They were holding off the whole way.
Speaker:And that sort of stymied us a bit, because you just couldn't come out and say, you
Speaker:know, like they're against it, you know.
Speaker:You're going, but We did play the, the, the, the line that if you don't
Speaker:let your constituents know, how are they going to do past their vote?
Speaker:You know, this is important to a lot of the people in your electorate.
Speaker:So we did put pressure on them from that point of view.
Speaker:And the other thing is when we ran Our campaign before the election,
Speaker:uh, we went into certain, uh, electorates, uh, we, you know, we
Speaker:targeted electorates that we thought were important, that we had to hold.
Speaker:And we, and because we're apolitical from that point of view, we just
Speaker:pushed the line about who was said yes, which candidates said definite yes.
Speaker:And, uh, which one said no, which there weren't many of them, and
Speaker:all these question mark ones.
Speaker:So, so we had to play that line.
Speaker:So it was a careful, you know, So that was in the lead up to
Speaker:the last state election vote.
Speaker:Exactly, yeah.
Speaker:And were you at the polling booths?
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you were handing out a leaflet saying, as far as we know, in this election,
Speaker:for this seat, for this electorate, this district, here's what we know.
Speaker:This guy said yes, this lady said no, and these people have said no.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker:And the idea was to put some pressure on the candidates, and particularly the LNP
Speaker:candidates, although there were Lots of Labor, um, candidates that had made up
Speaker:their mind as well, um, put pressure on them that from the point of view of the
Speaker:media, media would turn up to the, and here we are with our signs and stuff like
Speaker:that, and, and they would ask questions.
Speaker:So, uh, we were sort of gaming them in a way to, to put the question
Speaker:to the, um, to the candidates.
Speaker:So did any politician actually, you feel, was forced to state
Speaker:their position as a result of that?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Do you think?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:But I don't think that was I don't think that mattered.
Speaker:It just made them uncomfortable.
Speaker:And it also put voluntary assisted dying out there, you know, put that
Speaker:in front of the community, as it were, because, you know, they get
Speaker:asked this question and, um, and they're not, they're, they're hedging.
Speaker:And at home, people are yelling at the TV screen, well, it's a simple thing.
Speaker:Just say yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So it didn't actually get an instant result, but it was just part of the
Speaker:pressure and the blocking on people.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I know I'm digressing a little bit, but the, we, we, we did our research
Speaker:and we had our target seats to look at.
Speaker:And, um, and they did pretty well, you know, in terms of, cause, cause
Speaker:we thought that Voluntary Instance of the Dying was a winner, a vote winner.
Speaker:You know, if you've got 80 percent of the electorate saying, yes, I want this,
Speaker:How can that be a negative, you know?
Speaker:So, so, um, so yeah, you know, we, we thought, yeah, that, that, that
Speaker:would get the candidates that were pro that came out across the line.
Speaker:And so we were in electorates where the candidates had declared their position.
Speaker:Now they were, they were Labor candidates, um, across the board here.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So you were in some electorates where Labor declared its position
Speaker:and that, Um, and then that put pressure on the LNP guys, particularly
Speaker:in an urban seat, I guess.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And a particular one that comes to mind was Townsville in, um, Thuringowa
Speaker:and, uh, where the Labor guy had really come out strongly in terms of favour
Speaker:of voluntary assistance to dying.
Speaker:And we had an extremely strong, um, local group there, dying particularly.
Speaker:And they were putting pressure all the time on them.
Speaker:They were relentless.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:And then the, oh, when I said no, none of them came out well, the Alan Peake
Speaker:did come out in favour of it, because they felt they were losing to it.
Speaker:And, uh, it was a, we knew the Labour guy was under a bit of pressure because
Speaker:of the, um, youth, um, crime there.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah, so, um, so, um, we like to think that, you know, because he
Speaker:was so much in favour, Um, that, that helped him across the line.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But we're not, we're not political remember, we're just, we're just
Speaker:pushing candidates that were pro.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And recognising that that would push their vote.
Speaker:So how many electorates were there that you were active in?
Speaker:We had five in South East Queensland and um, there was um, Bundaberg and um, in
Speaker:the Townsville, so there's Murrumburg.
Speaker:Uh, Farra and, um, Townsville.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And in each of those, you had people at a few booths, did you?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:We couldn't, we couldn't cover everything.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Yes, no, that's right.
Speaker:So maybe eight places times, three booths, times a couple of people,
Speaker:so yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker:50 people maximum on the ground.
Speaker:Not many, many.
Speaker:It's hard to, it's hard to get people to do things like, well,
Speaker:as you know, it's really hard.
Speaker:People are sitting in their home going, yeah, yeah, I can do that.
Speaker:But when they've actually come to the crunch offs and go to
Speaker:the football or something.
Speaker:So we're going to get onto later on how many people in Dying With Dignity
Speaker:are actually active and doing stuff and how much was it just a core group of.
Speaker:Half a dozen people, but we'll get to that later.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I still want to talk about, um, the vote and, um, so there was a rally
Speaker:outside Parliament House the day before.
Speaker:You met Shea.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Shea was there.
Speaker:Sir Perciv was there.
Speaker:That was great meeting up with her.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so was that sort of thing useful?
Speaker:Um, it was useful in a couple of ways and, um, and I must admit it was my
Speaker:idea to do that, you know, and, and I realized early on that we had to
Speaker:get in there fast and I, It was quite early and I said to our president,
Speaker:Look, we really need to do that.
Speaker:And she said, Yeah, yeah, we've got time.
Speaker:And I said, What if Cherish Life get in there and book the spot?
Speaker:And, well, she was there the next morning at the police station,
Speaker:filling in the forms, you know.
Speaker:Oh, your president was.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:Yeah, jobs have got to be handed around and that's sort of her forte.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So, um, So we felt we needed to be there and the police don't
Speaker:like different, you know, opposing groups in case there's trouble.
Speaker:So we felt we had to get in early.
Speaker:So, um, yeah, so that's happened there.
Speaker:So it was useful from the point of view of, you know, Showing the MPs inside.
Speaker:They weren't actually inside then, that wasn't until the next
Speaker:day that Parliament started.
Speaker:But it did show them that there was that community interest out
Speaker:there and there was a, you know, people really, really wanted it.
Speaker:And it also gave an opportunity for those MPs that were strongly for it to sort
Speaker:of turn up and have their face there.
Speaker:Even though they weren't asked to say words.
Speaker:We were again pushing the fact that we're apolitical, this is
Speaker:a cross the board type thing.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But the, you know, Polly's, you know, they want to be seen.
Speaker:So they did pop their heads.
Speaker:There were some there and I, unfortunately, I missed some of them.
Speaker:With masks and things like that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Sometimes, yes, I'm a bit annoyed with myself.
Speaker:I didn't recognize some of the politicians and didn't get up to say hello to them.
Speaker:But the other thing you want too, the other thing we had in our mind was,
Speaker:Down the track, uh, we need images of that to show politicians if there's a
Speaker:movement against this in the future.
Speaker:Look, look at these images.
Speaker:These are the groups that were out there.
Speaker:And we had banners everywhere.
Speaker:You wouldn't have seen them on the TV.
Speaker:But we had banners all over the place from all the various groups that were
Speaker:supporting Volunteers for the Dying.
Speaker:And so, those images are important going through to the future.
Speaker:Yeah, I wasn't there, but I saw the photo that Alison took.
Speaker:It looked, um Looked like a calm and, um, yeah, it wasn't histrionic at all.
Speaker:It was very calm was the feeling I got looking at the pictures, which is good.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then we had speakers, um, there and they, they were great, you
Speaker:know, they, they did a fabulous job.
Speaker:And as you say, that was calm and measured.
Speaker:Um, and I just have to, um, just, um, comment on that all
Speaker:the way through our campaign.
Speaker:We kept saying to our supporters and any groups that we came in contact with, look.
Speaker:We've got to keep this respectful.
Speaker:This is about the issues, it's not about the people.
Speaker:We've got to respect the opponents.
Speaker:We've got to come from a strong evidence base.
Speaker:You know, we, we've got evidence on our, in our favor.
Speaker:We've got the moral, um, strength in our favor and that we don't have
Speaker:to get histrionic, we don't have to become zealots or anything like that.
Speaker:Just keep it quiet and civil and respectful and that'll win the day.
Speaker:Because.
Speaker:You know the opponent's eventually going to lose the plot and start yelling
Speaker:and screaming or something like that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:If you're in the chat room, you've just joined the live stream.
Speaker:Um, I'm here with Craig, who's the vice president of Dying With Dignity, and we're
Speaker:just wallowing in the glory of a victory.
Speaker:And, uh, in episode 299, we talked about the ins and outs of the legislation.
Speaker:This episode is to talk about how, how it was done, how it was
Speaker:won, and what lessons are to be learned for other community groups.
Speaker:That's the idea of this podcast if you're in the chat room.
Speaker:Hello Daniel, Jack, James, Don, and Greg, and Tony in the chat room.
Speaker:So, We've got a question, throw it in there, but just sit back and
Speaker:listen to Craig as we enjoy a moment.
Speaker:So, um, okay.
Speaker:Was there, did anyone renege on a previously stated position in the
Speaker:sense of, yes, I'm in favour of it, and then turned around and voted against?
Speaker:Did you get anybody?
Speaker:No, I don't think anyone actually came out strongly, in a strong contradiction
Speaker:of what they were saying previously.
Speaker:The one MP I was a little bit surprised, not completely surprised, but annoyed
Speaker:I didn't get round to seeing him.
Speaker:One escaped me.
Speaker:And that was Bart Malish from Aspley, the Labor guy.
Speaker:So that, I should have seen that coming, but I didn't.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And in your I'm imagining a whiteboard with all the names.
Speaker:I guess it was a spreadsheet.
Speaker:It was a spreadsheet.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And did you have like a rating of how strong you were confident?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:And the, the other thing we, we did, we asked our supporters and members who'd
Speaker:spoken to an MP or, Got some sort of email back or something like that to
Speaker:give us feedback, you know, so that, so that we can weigh things up and see
Speaker:what we need to, to put our efforts.
Speaker:So, and that was really helpful too, because somebody come back and you
Speaker:think, Oh, they just didn't fit.
Speaker:And they come back and they say, no, he said definitely,
Speaker:he's definitely in favor of it.
Speaker:And, uh, and here I've been worried about them.
Speaker:And then I could sort of say, okay, we put our efforts somewhere else.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And then you, like your spreadsheet, move them up a notch
Speaker:or two in your confidence level.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Yeah, good.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, So, um, thinking about the people who voted no, and this will be a tricky
Speaker:one, because, you know, other than a couple from the Labor, it was, um,
Speaker:it was LNP and CATA and One Nation.
Speaker:One Nation, yeah.
Speaker:So, for the LNP, thinking of the ones who voted no, the LNP, traditional
Speaker:conservative party, is all about personal freedom, freedom of the individual,
Speaker:individual liberty, individual autonomy.
Speaker:If that's You know, the heart and soul of your, of your party.
Speaker:That's, you know, that's describing your party in a nutshell to people.
Speaker:And, you know, lack of government interference in your life.
Speaker:If, you know, the only reason I can think that those people would say
Speaker:no would be because of a religious motivation, it seems to me.
Speaker:Because the policy of being in favour of voluntary assisted dying should
Speaker:go hand in hand with, with that.
Speaker:Libertarian sort of viewpoint that these people should have.
Speaker:Is it hard to, can you tell whether it was religion that stopped those people
Speaker:being in favour, or did any of them have any legitimate reason other than rules?
Speaker:Um, I, well there's a couple of things to say there, and I don't
Speaker:particularly want to talk about.
Speaker:Names in, in, in the no camp at all.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Or, or they did with Bar, bar Malish.
Speaker:But um, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:I don't know his motivation to be honest, because as I said, I didn't target him.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But, um, yeah.
Speaker:But in the liberal camp, those that I spoke to at the, the LMP, um, there was
Speaker:definitely those who were, I think he called small L Liberal, and, and they.
Speaker:Some of them were just concerned more about governance and, and, um, economics.
Speaker:That was a key thing.
Speaker:And, and they, and, uh, and one in particular said to me, look, you know,
Speaker:that's stuff I, I'm more interested in the economics, but I realized this is
Speaker:my job and I've got to weigh things up.
Speaker:And, um, and, uh, he was pretty good from that point of view.
Speaker:And he said, he said things like, um, Entities having a conscientious objection?
Speaker:How does that work?
Speaker:There was things he just couldn't understand, and this
Speaker:was coming from his own party.
Speaker:So clearly there was divisions there in terms of thought, but I did get the
Speaker:impression, unlike what I heard from the, you know, abortion debate, was that, um,
Speaker:they truly did have a conscience votes.
Speaker:They were having to make up their own mind.
Speaker:But to get back to your question about, um, religion, um, we had some certain LNP.
Speaker:members up and we didn't target anyone at all.
Speaker:So they're, they're probably sitting at home going saying, well, we
Speaker:didn't hear anything about this.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like Tim Mander and, and, um, Mark Robinson and, and those sort of LMPs.
Speaker:So they'll, they'll be thinking that this wasn't a big issue because we
Speaker:weren't, but they were a lost cause, you know, that was just the beginning.
Speaker:That's going to tow the religious line.
Speaker:Save your energy for somewhere where you're at a chance.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:There's no use wasting your time there.
Speaker:I saw his, uh, reason was actually, he said, well, it's LNP policy to
Speaker:be against voluntary assisted dying.
Speaker:That's what we went to the election with, so that's what I'm voting was more
Speaker:or less Yeah, yeah, so he's right in a sense that that was, um, LNP policy, and
Speaker:I assume it still is, um, but, you know, granting a conscience vote overrides that,
Speaker:and because of that, um, Labor Party, um, state conference back in, I don't
Speaker:know where it is, I've got it here down somewhere, that, that, so it was Labor
Speaker:Party policy to, to have conscience, and so there, there was that, that party line
Speaker:Underlying things, and I think that's got to make MPs a bit anxious, hasn't it?
Speaker:Even if they're told, look, you're free to do whatever you like, and
Speaker:they were, um, It's got to be a bit of anxiety there, particularly if you're
Speaker:a bit, a bit unsure of your seat.
Speaker:There were pre selection or whatever, so, yeah, yeah, interesting.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, as arguments go, it's probably one of the better ones by
Speaker:Tim Mander to say, well, people would have voted based on policies and
Speaker:that's our policy and that's Yeah!
Speaker:So, I can accept that as a reasonable argument.
Speaker:Yeah, that's probably the best argument of the whole lot, to be honest, yeah.
Speaker:I think I had I wrote one thing down here.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:From one LNP guy, this is during his little thing in Parliament, and
Speaker:he said, um, um, Faith and God is a higher power than this Parliament.
Speaker:That was his reason.
Speaker:So there we go.
Speaker:And he sat down.
Speaker:Well, he said more than that, but that was the crux of the matter, you know.
Speaker:Um, and so I thought that, you know, compared to Mark Robinson, who I would
Speaker:have thought that would cover him, him.
Speaker:He wasn't really pushing the religious thing as much, and I think
Speaker:it's because he's been shot in the foot too many times by doing that.
Speaker:Right, right.
Speaker:So, um, the speeches, by all accounts, there were a lot of emotional speeches,
Speaker:and people got, politicians got up and told a few personal stories about
Speaker:their parents or friends or whatever.
Speaker:So, how many days were there of speeches?
Speaker:There was three days of speeches and, um, and, uh, my job in one of the,
Speaker:uh, DWDQ was to sit through the whole three days while parliamentarians got
Speaker:up and walked out and came back and had their lunch and did all this and
Speaker:we're sitting there just uncomfortable.
Speaker:I've got to say, Parliament House needs a renovation.
Speaker:It's a serious need.
Speaker:So we sat through the whole thing.
Speaker:Uh, and I felt I needed to do that for a couple of reasons.
Speaker:I wanted to.
Speaker:But the other reason is, behind my mask, people can see my beard hanging down.
Speaker:So the MPs could see someone up there that they could recognize as
Speaker:being from DWDQ, while they might not recognize others because of the sign.
Speaker:Oh, a third reason why I had to be there.
Speaker:I knew Cherrish Life were across the aisle.
Speaker:Right, and they were there.
Speaker:To Cherrish Life.
Speaker:They were there.
Speaker:As well.
Speaker:They were there, yeah, and um, I can't say for 100%, but gee, probably 99
Speaker:percent sure that that was Cherrish Life.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And they were still waving to MPs that we know, we're a definite no.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Not that you're supposed to do that.
Speaker:Yeah, probably only twice during the whole, the whole three days.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And your pencil got confiscated.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm like, well, you know about my arm, I go through the metal
Speaker:detector, boing, boing, boing, boing, and I'm going, oh, what was that,
Speaker:and then I suddenly remember my arm.
Speaker:So it makes me go back and forth a few times and check my pockets and that, and
Speaker:I tell him about my arm, and he couldn't, the guy couldn't cope with that, and
Speaker:he said, oh no, it must be your belt.
Speaker:He just went.
Speaker:He'd never heard of somebody having metal plates in their For some reason
Speaker:he just couldn't cope, but he had to punish me somehow, so So the only thing
Speaker:I wanted to take up was a piece of paper and my pen, but no, no, pen, pen,
Speaker:everything has to go in the little locker.
Speaker:Right, right.
Speaker:So the first day I didn't, I didn't take any notes for the first
Speaker:day, which was a bit of a shame.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But the crazy thing, though, is there were people up with pencils
Speaker:and pens and writing things Yes.
Speaker:And stuff like that, yeah.
Speaker:So the media didn't turn up.
Speaker:Oh yeah, they were there, but they weren't there in numbers, so they were,
Speaker:I think they've got to be accredited with Parliament, the media, and they're up
Speaker:the other end from the public gallery, so they're looking in a different direction.
Speaker:Did they ever approach you and ask you for No, but that wasn't my job, you
Speaker:know, I'm not, I'm not real good in front of cameras, so we had, we had our, you
Speaker:know, people who deal with that, so.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Everyone had their job, so.
Speaker:We'll get to that later.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Because I'm very interested in that.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Bye.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So, what speeches struck you as interesting and what arguments
Speaker:were made that you might have, uh, been surprised or just think the
Speaker:listener might find were interesting?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:The, the one that stuck in my mind, and this is just because of the
Speaker:involvement, was Aaron Harper in, um, from Tharangoa in, um, in Townsville.
Speaker:Um, he's been the driver.
Speaker:It's, it seems to be across the board in the different, you know, like Victoria
Speaker:and Western Australia and South Australia, that there's one parliamentarian that puts
Speaker:his hand up to go, or her hand up to go.
Speaker:Um, you know, I'm, this is my big thing, this is what I'm going to
Speaker:push, and it was Aaron Harper.
Speaker:And, um, it's interesting because he was a bit iffy right back, you know, way
Speaker:before any of this sort of started about whether he should get on board and that.
Speaker:But our, our crew in Townsville, boy, they were tenacious.
Speaker:And they convinced him, they convinced him to do this.
Speaker:And he's a paramedic too, so he had inkling he'd been to, you know,
Speaker:well, I assume so, you know, most paramedics have been to suicides
Speaker:and learned that the person will have terminal illness and that's the
Speaker:reason why they committed suicide.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So once he sort of got his head around the philosophy of it and the ethics of
Speaker:it and that And he was just gung ho, he was all for it, and he was the head of
Speaker:the um, the first um, health committee, um, before the first, what's that, 2017?
Speaker:And then before this, and this new health committee as well.
Speaker:So he was the head of the, um, the chairman of those health committees.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Ah, and the hours he put in was just amazing, so, so when he got up to spoke,
Speaker:I was already emotionally charged, and so were our crew, so it's a bit hard
Speaker:to know how everyone else is feeling.
Speaker:Um, but he lost it.
Speaker:He was crying and, you know, and as he talked about everything and,
Speaker:and uh, in, in, in, in, in the public gallery, we were crying.
Speaker:It was, it was so emotional.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, um, if you ask me what he said, I have no idea.
Speaker:Cause it was on the first day.
Speaker:So I haven't got any notes, but it was just the emotion of the thing that got
Speaker:through and, and, and so there were quite a few stories that came through.
Speaker:And I think that was the, that was important that the, that the, The
Speaker:people, the MPs against it, could hear these stories again because some of
Speaker:them wouldn't have been as involved as the other MPs and might only be hearing
Speaker:these stories, you know, for the first time almost, which is hard to believe,
Speaker:but, um, so, so those stories were, were, were really important, um, and
Speaker:um, the other one, the other two that sort of struck me a bit was Cynthia Liu
Speaker:from MP from Cook in in the far North.
Speaker:She's a Uh, a Torres Strait Islander.
Speaker:Um, and she had personal stories as well, and the way she came out in
Speaker:favour of this, um, was great to see.
Speaker:Yeah, that was important.
Speaker:We were worried about her for a while, because we kept hearing this
Speaker:thing from the opponents that the Indigenous people need to be involved
Speaker:and all this other thing, but as you say, they're just like everyone else.
Speaker:There's some for it and some against it and the other thing, so.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, the fact that she came out in favour was great, but we had to do a bit of
Speaker:work there and um, we've got another representative of a doctor in North
Speaker:Queensland who's on our committee.
Speaker:And she finally spoke to her and she just came out and said, yes, I'm in favour.
Speaker:And so that was it.
Speaker:We didn't have to worry anymore.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And there's the other one, um, Aboriginal person in Parliament, um,
Speaker:ah, who's um, um, just forgotten her name just off the top of my head.
Speaker:Oh, Leanne Inop.
Speaker:Um, she's from Algester.
Speaker:And I didn't realise that she had Aboriginal heritage, but she came
Speaker:out and spoke to that as well.
Speaker:So I thought, you know, this business about Indigenous people not
Speaker:wanting it is a bit of a fur fee.
Speaker:And also the first person in Western Australia to access voluntary assisted
Speaker:dying was an Indigenous person.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I'm going, you know, and I think that helped because it, I didn't
Speaker:hear that argument come up anymore.
Speaker:It was sort of like, it was dead in the water, so, so, that got rid
Speaker:of that, that, that problem, so.
Speaker:Um, oh, yeah, so, um, yeah.
Speaker:So, I'm imagining stories where people were talking about their parents
Speaker:who had a rough death and how it was terrible to watch them suffering.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If only this was available, that would have been You know, so much better, but
Speaker:those, just a number of stories like that.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:And I think that, that made our job easier that MPs had personal stories
Speaker:and that's, that made them yes voters, you know, in terms of Parliament,
Speaker:so that made our job a lot easier.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So do you think the people who voted no just haven't had that
Speaker:experience as well, do you think?
Speaker:Is it possible that maybe?
Speaker:Um, you, you, the, I think some of them were swayed by the nay arguments a bit,
Speaker:even though they may have felt Personally, that there was something in this.
Speaker:They felt the greater good was, you know, towards, um, avoiding those arguments,
Speaker:which are hard to, you know, to fathom.
Speaker:It's just hard to imagine somebody witnessing a, you know, a terrible,
Speaker:torturous death of their parent, for example, and then voting no.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like, it's hard to imagine.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:Um, so it's Yeah, so We'll never know.
Speaker:We'll never know.
Speaker:Yeah, there's a few things like We actually thought we
Speaker:had the Catters on board.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Very early on.
Speaker:Very early on.
Speaker:They were making all the right noises.
Speaker:We had one of our people working on them and he thought they were in the bag.
Speaker:But I always knew that an MP in the bag is not in the bag.
Speaker:So what?
Speaker:So, the, how many CATA members are, and they all three voted against it,
Speaker:and what, what was their argument?
Speaker:Um, the argument, the principal argument right through from the no
Speaker:voters in, in, in, no, no MP voters, um, was, um, that palliative care
Speaker:had to get up, uh, had to be better.
Speaker:first before we had VAD.
Speaker:Now, I know that doesn't make much sense.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Um, and the other argument was, which was sort of a subclause of that argument was,
Speaker:and there's no equity across Queensland, like there's better palliative care in
Speaker:South East Queensland, not in the regions.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that inequality, inequity, um, of access to, um, palliative
Speaker:care was a reason not to do it.
Speaker:But I can't, I can't buy that argument.
Speaker:I can't fathom it myself.
Speaker:From their point of view, I think.
Speaker:You know, the whole reason for being is we're fighting for the regions,
Speaker:and we're now fighting for better palliative care in the regions.
Speaker:That's what we're doing.
Speaker:So, there's a means of differentiating themselves, and that's, that's what
Speaker:they're all about, is, is better care.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Services for the, that was the main argument against, which
Speaker:surprised me a little bit.
Speaker:In fact, the ERs, Robbie put up a, an amendment to, um, to sync the whole thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and this was with, you know, you do the second reading and a vote,
Speaker:and then you do the debate before the final reading, which is the vote.
Speaker:And, um, he, he said, um, this is it, Mr.
Speaker:Speaker.
Speaker:I move that the words now read for a second time, be deleted, and
Speaker:the following words be inserted.
Speaker:Considered further after the state government has committed to provide
Speaker:the required additional funding of 275 million per year, he's not asking
Speaker:much, to palliative care delivery, uh, so, so he tried to squash it and, um,
Speaker:and, you know, that got a little bit of, you know, razzed from the other
Speaker:MPs that this was a bit over the top.
Speaker:Right, yep.
Speaker:But the interesting thing was, once he did that, there were LMP that voted.
Speaker:Supported his, his motion.
Speaker:So they had to ring the bells and get everyone to do a vote.
Speaker:Yeah, right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So for all the speeches and emotional pleas and the arguments, did any of that
Speaker:change anybody's mind, do you think?
Speaker:Who was voting?
Speaker:No, I don't think so.
Speaker:I think it There might have been, because as I said, I think, I thought
Speaker:we had 56 in the bag, and I was trying to be as honest to myself and not over
Speaker:optimistic, but I was trying to be, you know, that's the best evidence
Speaker:we had, so, so I guess on that you could say there were four in the bag.
Speaker:So when you thought 56, how many unknowns did you have at that time?
Speaker:Oh, we had quite a lot.
Speaker:Yeah, we had quite a lot of unknowns.
Speaker:Um, but, um, they were more on the no side, the undecided side,
Speaker:that we thought, well, I probably won't go, you know, sort of thing.
Speaker:So, Because the LNP weren't playing ball and telling us, we had that
Speaker:group that might not have come across.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, none of the no voter arguments impressed you, or none of their
Speaker:speeches impressed you at all?
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:No, not really.
Speaker:Um, I'm just trying to think if there was anything, um The thing
Speaker:that worried me, there were certain things that they were going to push.
Speaker:They were going to push the 12 month back to 6 month.
Speaker:Um, I thought that might happen.
Speaker:Um, but they stayed strong on that.
Speaker:Um, but the, um, the thing that, I thought might be a problem was
Speaker:the institutional objection entity.
Speaker:Yeah, let's just briefly explain for the dear listener.
Speaker:So in other states, this hasn't got through, but basically the Queensland
Speaker:one said that if you're a patient in a Catholic hospital and you want to
Speaker:access voluntary assisted dying, then The hospital's got to sort of allow the
Speaker:information to get to you and they've got to allow a transfer if it's possible.
Speaker:But if it's not possible, they've got to allow somebody else to
Speaker:come in and provide the service.
Speaker:Is that kind of right or not?
Speaker:Well, I'd sum it up like this.
Speaker:If you're a permanent resident there, a long term resident, It doesn't matter
Speaker:what institution, Catholic or whatever, your home is your castle and that's it.
Speaker:You know, the Catholic or religious or whoever doesn't
Speaker:get a say in stopping that.
Speaker:So that's just, um, and that, you know, so that's something that's not in
Speaker:the other states as far as I'm aware.
Speaker:And, uh, but then the thing that made it a bit complicated, um, is
Speaker:that there's a gradation in terms of what you're allowed to do in,
Speaker:um, in an entity that's objecting.
Speaker:And the.
Speaker:Um, accessing information, they can't stop people going in, um, although
Speaker:there's a provisor, there should be a doctor and that sort of thing,
Speaker:so they do have some restrictions in providing that information.
Speaker:If a person wants information, they should be able to get it, they
Speaker:don't have to leave the institution.
Speaker:Um, and then there's, um, then there's, then it's broken down into the requests.
Speaker:Um, and then the assessments, and then the actual provision of
Speaker:the, um, the, uh, VAD substance.
Speaker:So, so the restrictions get a bit worse as, as, as you get down in
Speaker:towards the nitty gritty of things.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Um, the, the big thing that, um, is the rescue for, for, uh, VAD
Speaker:people, um, wanting to access it.
Speaker:Um, is the provision that if it's going to cause harm.
Speaker:Or, even financial problems with doing the transfer, or there's no
Speaker:other option, you can't go anywhere.
Speaker:If your Catholic entity is the only place you can go, then it's not fair to
Speaker:be chucked out in the street, you know.
Speaker:So there is those provisions, which I thought were a fair sort of thing.
Speaker:And to be honest, I don't think they're going to be used very much.
Speaker:If you're looking at this, do you really want to be in a place where
Speaker:they're sort of shunning you?
Speaker:You know, you probably would make a move, you know, try and, um,
Speaker:transfer out to a more pleasant sort of setting and that, um, So, um,
Speaker:but I think it's fair though, yeah.
Speaker:So that's the big difference between the Queensland
Speaker:legislation and the other states?
Speaker:Well, it's even bigger than that because the other states are just
Speaker:too scared to even address it.
Speaker:And we've seen problems, you know, in Western Australia and Victoria, because
Speaker:Um, yeah, people think, oh, I'll just do this, and no, you're in an entity,
Speaker:an institution that won't allow it.
Speaker:So did the other states try and get it in, and it was amended
Speaker:out, or they just didn't even try?
Speaker:No, didn't try.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:Yeah, Queensland, Queensland has the best legislation.
Speaker:It's very rarely, very rare that you say that, isn't it?
Speaker:Yes, it is.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, no, we've got great legislation in VAD.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:So, why is that, that we did get it?
Speaker:That part in, and the other states didn't, and is this getting back
Speaker:to Lindy Wilmot and this other guy?
Speaker:Um, who I, let me just Ben White, Ben White.
Speaker:Yeah, Ben White and Lindy Milmot will, Lindy Wilmot are professors of law at
Speaker:QUT, actually Lindy Wilmot, uh, taught criminal law when I did, uh, law, so
Speaker:she was a criminal law lecturer, yeah.
Speaker:Um, so they were the authors of the original Voluntary Assisted Dying
Speaker:Bill that Queensland's Parliamentary Health Committee recommended as the
Speaker:basis for law reform, uh, in 2020.
Speaker:So, they drafted the bill, is that, is that how it worked?
Speaker:They drafted a model bill, um, because they weren't just thinking about
Speaker:Queensland, they were drafting it for the whole of Australia, um, and, uh,
Speaker:I can't remember when they did that, um, but it was out there and it's not
Speaker:just the bill that, you know, I mean, the There's 20 years of research that
Speaker:Ben White and Wendy Willmott have put in, which might say a bit about your
Speaker:age, Trevor, that it was incredible before they got involved in this.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:It was late 80s.
Speaker:So, um, yeah, so, um, they've put a lot of work in, and then the model
Speaker:build, I just can't quite remember when they came out with that.
Speaker:But they also adapted a little bit depending on what came out of Victoria
Speaker:and Western Australia as well.
Speaker:Do you think that model bill was out before the other states passed theirs?
Speaker:Good question.
Speaker:You don't know?
Speaker:I can't remember.
Speaker:You can't remember.
Speaker:But anyway, it seemed like it was a great starting point to then, at
Speaker:these committee levels where they're generating something, there's this model
Speaker:bill that these people Locals, well, Lindy's local, and I guess Ben White.
Speaker:Yeah, Ben White's.
Speaker:So the fact that they were local, uh, Queenslanders, and have done this model
Speaker:bill, and why don't we start with that.
Speaker:And I guess the head of the committee was this guy who was quite Aaron Harper.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So having A really committed head, having the locals on the ground who
Speaker:drafted a model bill that had this in it.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:All the stars aligned.
Speaker:The stars were aligned, you're exactly right.
Speaker:And um, and it was hard to Hard to argue against it because the position
Speaker:of, um, uh, Lindy and Ben were, was that it had to be evidence based.
Speaker:So, so, I know evidence based in law is a little bit different from clinical
Speaker:medicine, but they looked at, you know, all around the, the world and,
Speaker:and looked at the, um, the outcomes and, and, and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker:I, I, I can't talk to it very much, but that made it really hard to argue against
Speaker:what they were trying to do in the bill.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Um, because.
Speaker:They had all the arguments there on why they did what they did in the bill.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:There was enough history and experience around the world that they could draw on.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:A bit like where we are with COVID at the moment.
Speaker:There's now so much history and data that we can draw on, that we
Speaker:can We've got billions of people.
Speaker:It's not guesswork anymore, folks.
Speaker:It's a fairly large scale sample size we've got happening now.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:So, yeah, so that's exactly it.
Speaker:The, um, I'm trying to think in terms of what the Queensland Law Reform
Speaker:Commission did, because it went to them.
Speaker:Um, but the basis that they started with was the White and Wilmot, um, um, bill.
Speaker:And then, cause then they looked at it and um, there were probably some change, there
Speaker:were changes there, but I just can't think off the top of my head what they were.
Speaker:But most of them were In response to things that happened in Victoria
Speaker:and Western Australia and that to try and improve things, yeah.
Speaker:So prior to the vote, um, in the weeks leading up to it, my thoughts
Speaker:were that's the one area that they'll really hope to try and get amendments.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And it just, they didn't get any traction with that, with anybody.
Speaker:Yeah, so they, they, so Janetski from Southern Toowoomba, Brought, you know,
Speaker:wanted 54 amendments to the, to the bill, um, and he, he was one of the earliest
Speaker:speakers in Parliament when they were, you know, talking about, um, you know,
Speaker:going through the, the MPs and they were all doing their 10 minutes, cause they
Speaker:all, everyone got 10 minutes to speak, which went on and on and on forever,
Speaker:but, um, but he was pressing that, but he, he showed himself in the foot a
Speaker:bit, um, because he said, even, I think it was him, even if these amendments.
Speaker:Go through I will be voting against the bill You're not genuine in Resolution
Speaker:and some of the other LMP got up and said exactly the same thing you're going.
Speaker:Well, yeah, okay I'm not gonna get anywhere by agreeing to your amendment.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:So why should we agree?
Speaker:Yeah, that's right You're not offering us anything.
Speaker:You're not cutting us a deal.
Speaker:Okay a deal at all Yeah, so so that's not an incentive to vote, you
Speaker:know put an amendment is it so And because there's 54, they spent a lot
Speaker:of time at the beginning on these ones before they got to the object.
Speaker:Yeah, so they were burning themselves out.
Speaker:Ah, right, right.
Speaker:And it was a psychological thing too because they'd go through these amendments
Speaker:and the amendments would get voted down.
Speaker:And the numbers changed depending on the amendment, you know, it
Speaker:wasn't 61, 30 or whatever it is.
Speaker:Um, they changed.
Speaker:And when they got to this, they tackled the information thing first.
Speaker:You know, and that was the, the one that they should have left
Speaker:alone, because that's, people are, people want information, you know,
Speaker:they might not decide to do VAD when they get the information.
Speaker:Okay, this is the part of the law that said if you're in a
Speaker:Catholic hospital you, you are entitled to information about that.
Speaker:And so they started with that as trying to get that struck out.
Speaker:Yeah, which wasn't going to happen.
Speaker:Right, okay, yep.
Speaker:And then I'm waiting, I'm sitting there, I'm waiting for it.
Speaker:And I was really anxious at this stage because, um, with the process,
Speaker:what usually happens and has happened in other parliaments is that the,
Speaker:that one MP takes on the role as being the, um, you know, response.
Speaker:The lead opponent.
Speaker:The lead opponent.
Speaker:And you, you would've thought that was Aaron Harper.
Speaker:But no, they, they, um, they brought in Steven Miles as a deputy premier
Speaker:because that's got more status.
Speaker:And so he was the one that was replying to these, and I was thinking,
Speaker:Oh, this is going to be really, really hard to respond to this.
Speaker:You know, this is the, this is the hard one.
Speaker:This is, it's, it's hard enough for people just to read the bill and come to
Speaker:a conclusion and sort it, sort through it.
Speaker:And they gave up.
Speaker:The opposite parties just gave up.
Speaker:I was waiting for it.
Speaker:Nothing.
Speaker:And they just moved on.
Speaker:I'm going, you moved on at the right, at the time when you, this is
Speaker:when you, this is your big moment.
Speaker:And nothing!
Speaker:I'm going, you bitch!
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Yeah, I know that.
Speaker:What day was that?
Speaker:That was on the Friday, yeah.
Speaker:Was that day three?
Speaker:Yeah, that was, oh no, Thursday, sorry.
Speaker:Thursday, yeah, day three.
Speaker:Day three, the last final day.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:So, um, yeah, I was going, Oh, okay.
Speaker:That was easy.
Speaker:So does that mean they were a bit disorganized on the opposition side?
Speaker:Yeah, they were disorganized in the sense that they didn't think
Speaker:through hard enough on how to, how to, um, put their arguments.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Um, but the other thing, as it went through and they were getting
Speaker:knocked back, knocked back, knocked back, you could sense that
Speaker:they were getting discouraged.
Speaker:You could sense the despair coming in, you know, well, that's what I felt as well.
Speaker:And by the time they got to that, which was their big moment, they were You know.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:They were, they were battered and bruised.
Speaker:They battered and bruised and, and, and all the oomph and, and will
Speaker:to succeed at, gone the out of it.
Speaker:What about the opposition leader?
Speaker:Chris?
Speaker:Chris?
Speaker:Oh, Chrisley.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What was his role in all this like?
Speaker:Um, well he, he held off right until.
Speaker:You know, that third day, I think it was, before he, he put his position,
Speaker:uh, and he came out, of course, against, uh, voluntary assisted dying.
Speaker:But the thing that I respect him for, you know, and, and, and, and this is
Speaker:important to say, that you've got to respect people and play the ball, not
Speaker:play the person, and I, I think that was important, and so, I respect him
Speaker:because he held firm on the fact that it should be a true conscience vote.
Speaker:And I truly believe he did that, you know, he, he, he stood firm on that.
Speaker:So even though he voted against it, and I can't even remember his reasons.
Speaker:Um, um, that was good to see.
Speaker:Yeah, that was good to see.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Um, so, so anything else?
Speaker:in that sort of lead up to the vote and that sort of thing that we might have
Speaker:missed that you'd like to talk about?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Um, we got a scare, I think it was on the Friday before because that, because
Speaker:this kicked off, we had the vigil on, um, on Monday with the, you know, photo
Speaker:shoot and all that stuff and, and then it's, it kicked off on Tuesday, but
Speaker:on Friday, Thursday or Friday, might have even been Thursday, a rumor hit
Speaker:the papers that, um, Cabinet was going to consider amendments, um, and, and
Speaker:bring that in at the last minute.
Speaker:Well, yeah, like, like we're going, what?
Speaker:Yeah, but, but we're sort of warned in a sense that, um, from other states
Speaker:that, that we knew this was going to happen, but that was a little bit of
Speaker:a curve ball in a sense that, that, that was coming out of, out of cabinet.
Speaker:Um, and, and we got the word that cabinet would consider this on the Monday.
Speaker:So, um, all our, you know, groups and, you know, light, uh, uh, uh,
Speaker:allied groups and that, that were.
Speaker:supporting BAD, hit social media, send out emails to all their
Speaker:supporters, did all the thing.
Speaker:By that time we knew, everyone knew how to, how to, how to, um, to, to reach out.
Speaker:Um, so they all reached out and apparently on the Friday, um,
Speaker:parliamentarians just got swamped.
Speaker:Absolutely swamped.
Speaker:A couple of, couple of parliamentarians emails went down.
Speaker:Yeah, it was just, it was just massive.
Speaker:Um, but, but could that also been from the, from the other side as well?
Speaker:Could be from cherished.
Speaker:Cherished.
Speaker:The life could, could've been, yeah.
Speaker:Doing the same.
Speaker:Could've, could've been, but, um, we, we think there was a
Speaker:lot of our supporters that did.
Speaker:It's impossible to know for sure.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:How many supporters are there, um, in dying with dignity there?
Speaker:I think.
Speaker:We, when we first, when we first saw stuff, we had 2, 000, okay,
Speaker:but I think it was something like 13, we got to the end of the race,
Speaker:which is a pretty good number.
Speaker:That is a good number.
Speaker:It's a pretty good number.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and.
Speaker:Is that mostly Queensland?
Speaker:That's mostly Queensland.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, but there, you know, like Go Gentle have got a heap, um, there
Speaker:are other groups around who've got their own supports and too.
Speaker:So when you add it all up, it's quite a big number.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:So such a scare that then cabinet didn't.
Speaker:Yeah, well the other thing that happened, which is this is the inside story
Speaker:here Yes, that's what we're here for.
Speaker:Shh, don't tell anyone.
Speaker:Listen, don't tell anyone.
Speaker:But um, the other thing we had was it wasn't just that that was doing because
Speaker:that wasn't enough because you know You need people in the ear of the MPs, you
Speaker:know spot on, you know, right there on the spot and and so we had our Um, you know,
Speaker:our people who, um, were, had the ear of, of the various cabinet ministers, um,
Speaker:and they were, they were on the phones.
Speaker:Um, and the, by this time we were, we had a, a strong relationship with the
Speaker:electrical trade unions, trade union, and, um, um, and we tried to build up
Speaker:a relationship with the unions per se, but We were in this situation where we
Speaker:couldn't be seen to be Labor, and so we had to step back a little bit, keep
Speaker:our foot in the door, but step back, but we reached out to the ETU because
Speaker:they had a guy, Peter Simpson, Simmo, they called him, who was might have
Speaker:been the secretary, I forget, of the ETU, and he got a terminal cancer, and
Speaker:he died about a year ago, and But he came on board as, you know, like, this
Speaker:is going to be the ETU's big thing.
Speaker:Which was great because, um, the E.
Speaker:T.
Speaker:U.
Speaker:took it up and, um, yeah, and they've got everyone's phone number.
Speaker:And they've got everyone's phone number.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and particularly the Deputy Premier's phone number.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And also speaking to their organiser there, not the, not the secretary,
Speaker:but their organiser who was, you know, I was on the phone to on and off.
Speaker:And um, yeah.
Speaker:And he, on the Sunday, he said to me, don't worry about it.
Speaker:So, so I shouldn't have said that on podcast, Liam, but, but he wasn't doing
Speaker:anything more than everyone else was.
Speaker:He was lobbying.
Speaker:And, uh, it wasn't just him to, you know, our, our guys on the,
Speaker:you know, not the, to you, but our guys were doing the same thing.
Speaker:Cherish the life of making the same phone calls.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:And twisting arms wherever they could.
Speaker:That's, So, by the time he said that, I think it was all over Red Rover.
Speaker:They'd got the message over the last couple of days.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Provided he wasn't passing over brown paper bags full of cash.
Speaker:Or, actually, if it was a blind trust, maybe that would have been
Speaker:A blind trust would have been fine.
Speaker:Apparently.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:So, yeah, there was a I think there was just We had everyone primed, we said
Speaker:just, you know, it was basically saying, if we need you to move, move, and they
Speaker:did, and that swayed Cabinet, so Cabinet came out and said, no, there won't be
Speaker:any amendments, we won't be bringing any amendments to the table, which was great.
Speaker:Right, yeah, okay.
Speaker:Alright, and the after party was pretty good?
Speaker:Yeah, the after party, um, we went to, we actually ended up at the ETU, there
Speaker:we go, I'm saying, we're not Labor, but truly, the ETU were, were really
Speaker:great in terms of, um, the vigil.
Speaker:Cause as I said, it was me that sort of started the ball rolling on that.
Speaker:But, um, when, with, when I first started with, um, Dying With Dignity, um, well,
Speaker:it'd be our, the people like the person that keeps the sort of numbers and,
Speaker:and, and supports that said, do you know the average age of DWDQ Oh, okay.
Speaker:If the only change is 70, but there was an awful lot of older people
Speaker:in that, so, so we, so we were invited along to the E2U for the
Speaker:Arthur celebration, which was great.
Speaker:And, uh, but it was like chalk and cheese.
Speaker:We had all these oldies there in our group and all these, you know,
Speaker:beefy, beefy guys there both.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, uh.
Speaker:Um, so yeah, that was, that was alright, so, we, we basically stayed long enough
Speaker:to be polite, and then we said, well, we gotta let these guys get on, and they're
Speaker:trying to be polite while us oldies are there, so, um, so then we went back and,
Speaker:um, Quite a few of our members were, um, took, um, rooms at the Park Royal,
Speaker:so it was close to Parliament House.
Speaker:And so, um, and one of our members, um, well actually I think it was his wife,
Speaker:um, booked out the Presidential Suite, so we called that DWDQ Headquarters.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right, so, yeah, so that was, that was good
Speaker:and so we got together there.
Speaker:It wasn't a big group, um, but it was the, the key people
Speaker:were there, which was great.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And hopefully a nod to all the people over the DWDQ.
Speaker:Decades.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, yeah.
Speaker:Who have been involved and who are no longer around,
Speaker:it's been a long time coming.
Speaker:It has, it has.
Speaker:Um, so, um, we've been in action 35 years, although I can only
Speaker:document it back to 30 years.
Speaker:There, there are people around who were there at the beginning.
Speaker:But, it was like that sort of thing when you first started, back then it was
Speaker:like, you don't have any sort of formal sort of thing, it's just a group of
Speaker:people getting together and saying this is what we should do, so, Um, I can't,
Speaker:you know, I can't quite nail it down, but I can definitely go back 30 years.
Speaker:Um, so, so, that, that was, that was good, um, you know, and, and you're
Speaker:right, there's all these people who, When it wasn't popular, you know,
Speaker:when it was, you know, this fringe group, you know, just banging away.
Speaker:Just, yeah.
Speaker:Probably thought, it's not going to happen in my lifetime,
Speaker:but I've got to make a start.
Speaker:Got to make a start.
Speaker:And we owe, uh, we owe gratitude to these people for, for getting the
Speaker:ball rolling and just keeping it just, just enough in the public eye
Speaker:that people are thinking about it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, um, okay.
Speaker:So what I want to move on now was thinking about community action and how and
Speaker:why dying with dignity was successful.
Speaker:So I guess one thing, um, I'll start with is, um, you know, like the Labour Party
Speaker:has done lots of things wrong around Australia and is still doing lots of
Speaker:things wrong that are really annoying me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But it was a Labor Party policy that sort of got this done And it wasn't a
Speaker:minor party that was getting it done So, you know in my eyes, I sort of
Speaker:think I don't know maybe in other states Was it a minor party have did minor
Speaker:parties get things done in other states?
Speaker:No, no, but this is where I say to people The fringe parties that are
Speaker:around that might have policies that you like, um, if you really want change,
Speaker:it has to be one of the major parties.
Speaker:It seems to me, this seems to me the classic example of having to
Speaker:get into the Labor Party and get the policy changed to actually have a
Speaker:law changed is Oh, that's absolutely really valid takeaway from this.
Speaker:Oh, yes, absolutely.
Speaker:There's no doubt that, uh, for voluntary system dying.
Speaker:The party in power is the one that has to drive it, and in some
Speaker:sense, you've got to make them, um, um, believe it's their idea.
Speaker:There's no point creating the Dying With Dignity political party and
Speaker:trying to get votes and get members and, you know, it's We, um, we had
Speaker:a couple of opportunities to bring in independent, um, MPs, um, Yeah.
Speaker:Um, you know, Paul, um, bill.
Speaker:Bill, yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Bill.
Speaker:Um, but we turned them down.
Speaker:You know, we, we just thought it, it had no legs and it was a bit of a
Speaker:waste of time and energy, so, right.
Speaker:So, um, we turned them down and, um, we ran with this and I, I, I've told
Speaker:you this story with, um, you know, how it, how it got up and, and you
Speaker:know, with it's worth repeating.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Gives this, this is a good story.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:So yeah, our other vice president.
Speaker:Um, is a member of Labor, excuse me, a member of Labor, and she, you know,
Speaker:clearly being in DWDQ, that was her big thing, and, and she really, really
Speaker:joined because of this, you know, and, um, she, she was in the, you know, like
Speaker:the, whatever the branch is, I don't know the structure, you might know it
Speaker:better than me, but the, the branch structure was pushing that, and then,
Speaker:you know, some people came on board, and then, then eventually they, they
Speaker:went to the regional, sort of, Um, meetings and that and, uh, and then
Speaker:it, and then it got onto the, um, she managed to get it before the, um, policy
Speaker:committee or whatever it's called.
Speaker:I'm going to get this slightly wrong, but, um, and then to her surprise, you know,
Speaker:you know, the branch sort of support, they went to reason support and then the
Speaker:committee, uh, the policy committee, um, And then they support, so every time,
Speaker:she's thinking, I'm not going to get very far, Oh, okay, I've got one more step.
Speaker:Um, and then eventually the state, um, the state Convention in Townsville.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:I think it was in Townsville, Queensland.
Speaker:I think it was Townsville.
Speaker:Um, and that was before the 2017 election, I think it was.
Speaker:Um, so, so it got onto that, um, onto the agenda there, but Um, at that stage,
Speaker:I think Palaszczuk was probably against it, but, you know, wouldn't come out
Speaker:and say, but I think she was more on the right of the party and, and, and
Speaker:so it got put on the agenda, but got put right at the end of the agenda
Speaker:because what happens in Labour state conventions usually is that they don't
Speaker:get to the last items on the agenda.
Speaker:That's why it's important to get it in first.
Speaker:But they zipped through this agenda and there it was out there, you
Speaker:know, we're going to vote on it.
Speaker:Bang.
Speaker:It was voted in and.
Speaker:Everyone's sort of stunned and here it is, it's party policy, so that
Speaker:was a great win for us, you know, and it just shows you how one person
Speaker:can sometimes just, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:She started at a branch level and has worked it through the system
Speaker:over presumably a couple of years.
Speaker:And then, you know, as it moved forward, there were others that came
Speaker:on board, so it wasn't in the end just her that was pushing it down.
Speaker:And, um, there isn't an, even an organisation with Labour could.
Speaker:In, in the labor organization called Labor for Dignity too, which, um Right.
Speaker:Um, you know, became strong probably really because of the
Speaker:ETU, the Electrical Trades Union.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Interesting.
Speaker:So, um, and, and how did you get involved?
Speaker:Correct?
Speaker:Um, well I was trying to think back when I got involved, but that
Speaker:goes back to secular party days.
Speaker:And so the secular party involved in this and, and you were too, you how
Speaker:were talking about how to get the message out and all that sort of thing.
Speaker:And, uh, the talk came around to, um, you know, we need to
Speaker:reach out to organisations.
Speaker:So I thought, I probably needed some sort of connection with them.
Speaker:And, you know, because of my medical history, I thought, yeah, well,
Speaker:this would be a good one for me.
Speaker:And the other one was, um, Because I've got a, my wife's got, her
Speaker:nephew is trans, I joined PFLAG and I joined Dying With Dignity.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Um, and uh, I just went along to meetings for, you know, a couple of
Speaker:years and not really doing anything.
Speaker:And then, um, there became a vacancy on the committee and they asked me,
Speaker:and I thought, Oh, okay, this is it.
Speaker:Better do something.
Speaker:Keep talking the talk and better walk the walk.
Speaker:Well you were in the sweet spot of just recently retired and you
Speaker:probably retired a bit earlier than you wanted to for health reasons.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:So you had Um, time, energy, and you still have your marbles, so you're
Speaker:in a sweet spot of productivity.
Speaker:Well, I have my marbles, I think I'd argue that, but, and um, you probably
Speaker:don't realise that because I joined the Cyclopane not long before you.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And I was under a chemotherapy fog at the time, I really wasn't with it,
Speaker:and I know sometimes you will look at me and go, What's he on about?
Speaker:You know, I was completely spaced out and if I wasn't spaced out, I
Speaker:wouldn't have done stupid things like join committees and that.
Speaker:And I warned them.
Speaker:I said, look, I'm not really with it as yet.
Speaker:And, um, but I improved with age.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Very good.
Speaker:Very good.
Speaker:So, um, so I'm interested in, you know, often with voluntary groups,
Speaker:it's a core group of, you know, Four or five people who do all the work
Speaker:and not much else happens outside.
Speaker:Like how many genuinely, you know, what's the sort of structure in terms
Speaker:of active people working hard and doing stuff and, you know, every week
Speaker:and others who are maybe just once in a blue moon when required, just, I'm
Speaker:interested in how many people would be.
Speaker:It's the same as any other group.
Speaker:So there was the eight committee members who just worked their guts out, you know,
Speaker:But, to be fair, um, you know, in regional areas, um, there were core members there.
Speaker:So what we tried to do was have an elect what we call an electoral
Speaker:coordinator in each of the electorates.
Speaker:Um, and often in most electorates that would come down to one person, you
Speaker:know, that's the best they can do.
Speaker:Um, And again it came back to how much we could support them, and unfortunately the
Speaker:ECs in in electorates where it was all sewn up didn't get much support at all.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But they did do things like, you know, write to the local papers and, you know,
Speaker:put social media things up and Right.
Speaker:And they were valuable in the sense that if a newspaper said, look we need someone
Speaker:in that electorate, have you got anyone?
Speaker:Right, okay.
Speaker:Okay, we've got someone.
Speaker:We'll find someone.
Speaker:We'll find someone.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But, there were, um, a few people, you know, you know, and when I say few, it
Speaker:would come down to like Like four, five, six, something like that, um, in some key
Speaker:areas and, um, we had a core No, we only really had one major person in Harvey
Speaker:Bay who was really, really good, um, and they just did a massive amount of work.
Speaker:You know, if you have one person that's doing a heap of work, they're
Speaker:worth a hundred, um, and we had a really good group in Bundaberg,
Speaker:as I said, and Bundaberg is the interesting one because Bundaberg
Speaker:The Labor guy got in by nine votes.
Speaker:Nine votes.
Speaker:And that is because of DWDQ, because they were working their butts off.
Speaker:And they held forums and things like that, and at one of the forums,
Speaker:the um, I shouldn't say this story should I, but let's just say the LMP
Speaker:guy slipped up, okay, and annoyed a lot of people in the community.
Speaker:Nine votes, remember?
Speaker:He annoyed more than nine people, I can tell you that.
Speaker:So, um, I won't go into anything more than that.
Speaker:But I'm sure, um, MPs might mess up like other people too.
Speaker:But he messed up at the wrong time for him, unfortunately.
Speaker:And maybe in retrospect he says, Oh, gee, I shouldn't have said that, or whatever.
Speaker:Um, so So, we know that Labor owes us in Bundaberg.
Speaker:Okay, so you had a good person in Bundaberg, for example, who says,
Speaker:I'll, I'll host an event and, um, help me out, what should I do?
Speaker:Or, and you say, well, hire a hall and we'll help you spread the word.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Well, some of us will even show up, maybe.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, we did, we did.
Speaker:Um, so, At one stage, they were, um, I wasn't part of that, but there was a,
Speaker:we called it a robe trip where we'd go round to the major centres that we needed
Speaker:to do and as far north as Townsville.
Speaker:I don't think we went to Cairns.
Speaker:So you hire a hall somewhere, and how do you get people to turn up?
Speaker:Uh, then you start, um, you, if you've got an MP on site, and it's a, you
Speaker:know, that they want, then you can use their contacts to get out there.
Speaker:And also, um, Um, get them to speak.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, so that, so it depends on whether you're doing it as a community thing
Speaker:or an MP sponsored one as well.
Speaker:So, so it depends a little bit.
Speaker:Um, and sometimes there'll be something like on the Gold Coast, we had a really
Speaker:strong group on the Gold Coast too.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And they were the, the, the They were part of the Gold Coast, they called
Speaker:themselves the Gold Coast Retirees, um, and they had all those, you know, they
Speaker:had a whole heap of people who were retirees, Gold Coast Retirees, and so, so
Speaker:they were, they were basically pushing, um, these forums and that down there.
Speaker:Okay, so they would say, we're going to host this forum, and they'd
Speaker:approach the local member, for example, and say, we're going to have
Speaker:all these people, all these voters, would you like to come to the event?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And would you like to?
Speaker:Um, let your constituents know via all of the means and channels
Speaker:that you've got available.
Speaker:And, and then you just hope that a hundred or two hundred people will show up.
Speaker:Yeah, we didn't have money to put in sort of ads in newspapers, I
Speaker:think, so it's far too expensive.
Speaker:Um, so you have to rely on social media and word of mouth.
Speaker:Um, and in an LMP type electorate, which, you know, I guess Corumbin is, um, then
Speaker:that's pretty hard because you're not going to get any support from them.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So who pays for the hall?
Speaker:And who pays for the PA system and all that sort of stuff?
Speaker:Um, well most of the halls and that have their own system already.
Speaker:Um, that's a really good question.
Speaker:I might have to talk to the treasurer about that, but we did have money.
Speaker:We had some money.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We just didn't have a lot of money, so, so things like that would,
Speaker:you know, the cost would be borne, and a lot of our, you know, little
Speaker:groups, um, they would, they would, they had Find a free hall somewhere.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:Or, if the MP is sponsoring it, he would know a place for free.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right, usually there was some way around it, yeah.
Speaker:Right, okay, and you might just have to put on T and Bickies or something.
Speaker:Yeah, T and Bickies, that's right, yeah, we, you know, we were in
Speaker:the Um, age demographic, where Tim Vickies works every time.
Speaker:And then gather some names and you sort of get them to try and fill in something.
Speaker:So you've got to contact.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:And then the other thing is you contact the local media, because yes.
Speaker:The interesting thing about media is you don't need many people before it looks
Speaker:like a crowd when you're taking a photo.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So even if you have small numbers.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:People can't see outside the photos, so they don't know how
Speaker:many people are on the sides, yeah.
Speaker:Right, okay, yeah.
Speaker:But then again, I'm thinking somewhere like Bundaberg, not much would probably
Speaker:happen, so Oh no, look, what surprised me, it was completely the other way around.
Speaker:When we do events in Brisbane, it was like No one would turn up.
Speaker:Yeah, well, people would turn up, but compared to the population of
Speaker:Brisbane, the numbers were small.
Speaker:But if you go to Bundaberg, you get a whole heap of people there.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You go to Townsville, you get a heap of people there, you know, Harvey
Speaker:May, you get a heap of people.
Speaker:So they don't have the distractions.
Speaker:They don't have the distractions.
Speaker:And they actually want to catch up with their mates.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:So, so it's exactly the opposite to what you think.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, no, that's, that doesn't surprise me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That doesn't surprise me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But I'm just thinking, like, local towns, do they even have a newspaper,
Speaker:a Bundaberg newspaper anymore?
Speaker:Nah, well, see, most of them, a lot of them closed down
Speaker:about a year ago, that's right.
Speaker:So, you've got to remember, this is going back a fair way when we were doing this.
Speaker:When we still had regional newspapers.
Speaker:When we still had regional newspapers, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And the other thing we would do with, um, Um, we're Market Stores, you know,
Speaker:the markets, you know, you do something like that, um, and, um, Hand Out Pampers,
Speaker:although with, with stores a lot, um, with the markets, you know, unless you're high
Speaker:that you've got a store and pay the money, Um, you'd have to stand outside as people
Speaker:went into the market and Hand Out Pampers.
Speaker:Right, okay.
Speaker:Which we didn't.
Speaker:And, oh, oh, and Shopping Sounds.
Speaker:It's amazing how many shopping centres would let you go in and have a little
Speaker:table there and hand out pamphlets and stuff and that, yeah, so we, those sort
Speaker:of things were in the early days when it was just trying to get information
Speaker:out to the community, not concentrating on really MPs very much, it was just
Speaker:sort of trying to get the message out.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yep, okay.
Speaker:Okay, so, um, so how did, how did you communicate?
Speaker:In your key management group, like, are you on a Facebook Messenger group,
Speaker:or are you via an email group, or?
Speaker:Yeah, so, so, uh, just, just, uh, you know, one thing there, um, um, it's
Speaker:important to try and get a committee who are open to listening to each
Speaker:other and trying to get consensus.
Speaker:I know before I came on board, um, the, uh, just backing up a little
Speaker:bit, our President Joss Hall who took over, I can't remember when she took
Speaker:over, it was before my time, but um.
Speaker:Um, she took over and she basically said things were pretty antiquated
Speaker:in terms of, you know, it was still letter writing to members and stuff
Speaker:like that, you know, like Fax machines.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, that's it.
Speaker:Well, I don't think they were that sophisticated.
Speaker:We were really talking about an older demographic who, who's bored up with
Speaker:writing letters and stuff to me.
Speaker:So, so she realized that things had to be modernized a bit and, um,
Speaker:And she just, just the other day she said to me, I really wanted to
Speaker:get some younger people on board.
Speaker:You know, younger is like me, in my 60s sort of thing.
Speaker:And, uh, you know, it just, just shows you.
Speaker:So, uh, to try and, you know, get this going because it
Speaker:was really languishing a bit.
Speaker:So, so that's the first thing.
Speaker:So, but to get back to your question, um, yeah, there, there are a few little
Speaker:hiccups in terms of people coming onto the committee who didn't fit in.
Speaker:It was sort of, you know, a little bit like.
Speaker:It wasn't really my way or the highway, they were just sort of focused in
Speaker:one direction and that would cause friction because they wouldn't, they
Speaker:were, you know, set in their ways in a sense and I'm not saying that in
Speaker:a bad way or anything like that but they basically moved on until we got
Speaker:a, until there was a committee that was sort of open to listening to each
Speaker:other and working together and um, so she did a really good job on that.
Speaker:So we did have a committee.
Speaker:That could work closely together, and I learned, you know, I was a little bit sort
Speaker:of like, oh, how do you contact people, and you do emails and stuff like that,
Speaker:but I rapidly got the idea that just ring them, you know, just get on the phone,
Speaker:talk to them, if it's important, you know, I felt if it was important enough for
Speaker:me to talk to them, I would ring them.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Meaning another committee member.
Speaker:Another committee member, that's right.
Speaker:And we would have meetings on a regular basis, depending on what was happening.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:A physical meeting?
Speaker:Or, it had to be, I guess, remote in recent times.
Speaker:Yeah, um It was Zoom pretty well from the beginning.
Speaker:Right, okay.
Speaker:I'm trying to remember if we had any, because we had, you know, some of
Speaker:our committee weren't in Brisbane.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So we had, um, we had, at one stage there was a committee person from the
Speaker:Gold Coast and we had, for a long time we had one from the Sunshine Coast and
Speaker:Townsville, Bundaberg, Cairns, Cairns.
Speaker:So it had to be Zoom.
Speaker:So, for example, if the person in Bundaberg says, I want to, I think I
Speaker:should run a get together, then you would just ring a few of the committee
Speaker:members and say, Joe Blow's doing this.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:Are you free on this date?
Speaker:Let's just go.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it was sort of, you know, that sort of thing.
Speaker:And, um, yeah, so, and the other thing was sort of, when I first joined was
Speaker:sort of just finding where did I fit in?
Speaker:You know, in the first meetings I was just listening and there's all
Speaker:these people talking about different names and this and I thought, who
Speaker:the hell are they talking about?
Speaker:I know nothing about this.
Speaker:So it takes a little while to sort of find your place in things.
Speaker:And then, um, yeah, then, so.
Speaker:So it was a pretty good committee because everyone had their sort of.
Speaker:A little bit of a forte on what they could do and, um, and, um, and,
Speaker:and have their roles, as it were.
Speaker:So what was your role?
Speaker:Um, my role, well, I can start off as Vice President.
Speaker:Yeah, but your activity role?
Speaker:My main role initially was sort of helping with modernize the committee in some ways.
Speaker:So, you know, um, and I looked at the IT side of things and I'm not an IT
Speaker:person, but, but it was sort of like, Well, we have to do something here, so,
Speaker:um, we have to get it professionally.
Speaker:We need to spend money to make money.
Speaker:Or fund, I mean, I say make money.
Speaker:Yes, that's right.
Speaker:So, so I looked at that and had all these great huge flowcharts about how
Speaker:it should work and stuff like that.
Speaker:So I did that, but my other big role for me Um, was writing submissions and
Speaker:letters and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker:So, um, and, um, one of the things that helped was that I could put this
Speaker:capital D R in front of my name and, you know, to get a bit of, you know,
Speaker:you know, kudos, you know, and, uh, and so, so yeah, so I spent a lot of time
Speaker:doing submissions and stuff like that.
Speaker:And, um, there were false, Not false, but you know, rabbit holes, you'd go
Speaker:down a bit, and I knew that I would do a lot of work on something and then
Speaker:that would come to nothing, but that was part of the process, um, of getting
Speaker:there, so, so yeah, and I guess the big submission I did was for the QLRC, the
Speaker:Queensland Law Reform Commission, so, so they asked for, um, when I was in the
Speaker:stage of Palisade, I asked them to look at the legislation, I spent an inordinate
Speaker:amount of time just Just going through with a fine tooth comb, you know, making
Speaker:suggestions and, and, and that to try and fine, fine tune things and point
Speaker:out where there were problems in that.
Speaker:Um, and that's not saying anything against, um, White and Wilma, but
Speaker:it's not just about the legislation, it's about also implementation
Speaker:and that stuff like that.
Speaker:So, and also putting it in a way that, you know, People could understand it and that,
Speaker:so, so, you know, I got a bit of kick out seeing some things in the, in the, in that
Speaker:808 pages, I go, hang on, that's mine!
Speaker:Yes, you mentioned you thought, I've copied and pasted my, my work.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right, so, uh, yeah, it's only small things, but,
Speaker:uh, But yeah, so I, I did an awful lot of that sort of thing.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:With the election, I spent an awful lot of time ringing around and in fact
Speaker:I was just on the phone all the time and that, and, and Jenny and my family
Speaker:were, you know, my wife and my family were so, what the hell are you doing?
Speaker:You're just on the phone's ringing all the time you're talking.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:'cause when you are, you know, it's like an election campaign.
Speaker:You're just organizing things.
Speaker:It just takes an another amount of time.
Speaker:So, so those are the sort of things that I did a lot of.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and in terms of all the contacts that have been developed,
Speaker:is that, is that in a database now or is it just in everybody's head?
Speaker:Their own personal contacts?
Speaker:Yeah, personal contacts, that's right.
Speaker:Um, yeah, so we did keep a bit of a database on that, like, you know, like
Speaker:you're supposed to, and that was part of the modernization thing is Yeah.
Speaker:Having a good database so that you could go back to it, but yeah.
Speaker:Um, so you say, well there's, you know, this member's got this sort
Speaker:of skill and that if you need the.
Speaker:Call on it and that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So just to finish off, looking to the future.
Speaker:So, um, you know, would you be campaigning, I don't think campaigning
Speaker:is the word, against no voters in future?
Speaker:I'm just thinking where there was maybe a Labor person who voted against it,
Speaker:would you be reminding their electorate, this is what this person did, or is
Speaker:there pressure to be applied because of fear of repeal legislation in future?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I would hope that, um, we would get a sense of it, you know, because there's
Speaker:enough contacts that people would pick up the phone and say, Hey Craig, you
Speaker:know, or whoever's on the community.
Speaker:Like I've heard this rumour from so and so, you know, gee,
Speaker:I'm a bit worried, you know.
Speaker:About a repeal.
Speaker:Yeah, about a repeal.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so I think that would give cause to, uh, remind the
Speaker:constituents of that electorate that he voted no, or she voted no.
Speaker:If that came up that way.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker:And, and then you've obviously, there's an implementation phase now.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So there's a lot of work still to be done in educating, well,
Speaker:developing procedures, forms.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Have to be developed.
Speaker:And you guys, obviously the government does that, but
Speaker:they'll be seeking input or not.
Speaker:We need to, we need to keep close scrutiny of what's going on and, uh, make sure
Speaker:that we've got a foot in the door if, you know, if they're thinking of something,
Speaker:can we somehow have a look at it?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Um, before it's sort of goes to the printer or whatever.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Um, for review.
Speaker:So that's gonna be one of our jobs and roles.
Speaker:Um, we will be relying a little bit on one of our We had a coalition.
Speaker:We had a coalition of DWDQ, Doctors for Assisted Dying
Speaker:Choice, and the Clem Jones Group.
Speaker:Um, and we worked well together.
Speaker:Um, uh, you know, there was also, um, Um, Everill Compton's, um, Christians
Speaker:for a Voluntary Assisted Dying.
Speaker:So, we had a coalition which worked really well together.
Speaker:Um, so, I think the doctors groups are going to have to step up to mark
Speaker:a little bit and get You know, from their experience in Victoria and
Speaker:Western Australia, um, and they're in close contact, you know, with
Speaker:each other and talking about these things on a, on a professional basis.
Speaker:So they've got that, um, experience on the ground and they're the ones that are
Speaker:going to say, hang on, this just doesn't work in Victoria or Western Australia.
Speaker:We, we must make sure this doesn't go through.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In regulation.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that is one of the advantages of being late to the party is you get to Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Is you get to learn from other people's mistakes.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:And, um, um, yeah.
Speaker:So that's, that's a big job that's coming up.
Speaker:I haven't thought about it at all.
Speaker:Just, I just couldn't put my mind to it.
Speaker:And being the medical guy in the committee, I can
Speaker:see a lot of that for you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, we'll see.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, um, yeah.
Speaker:And of course, Other States.
Speaker:So I saw somebody in the chat room before mentioned about what's the
Speaker:story in Other States and I understand New South Wales, for example, is
Speaker:the last state that doesn't have it.
Speaker:Other than the Territories.
Speaker:Other than the Territories, that's right.
Speaker:Um, and I feel sorry, uh, Marshall Perrin, who was the Chief, uh, Northern
Speaker:Territory Chief, um, Minister, um, is in, he belongs to DWDQ, he lives on the
Speaker:Sunshine Coast and he's been a great help in terms of giving us encouragement and,
Speaker:and making comment on things as well and, uh, we've been in close contact, you know,
Speaker:on and off through this whole process, um, and he was at our celebration at
Speaker:DWDQ headquarters, you know, and that's, uh, so he, he's a great guy and you met
Speaker:him, you met him when you, uh, that was Marshall Perrin, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker:He's in our heart.
Speaker:I had to go to QUT for, for my work.
Speaker:And as I walking into QUT, you passed Parliament House and I knew that the
Speaker:debates were going on and I just sort of looked across and there you were waiting
Speaker:to go in, scuttled across and said hello.
Speaker:It was just so, so that was Marshall Paradise I was talking with you.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Um, so is, are you guys, what's happening in New South Wales then?
Speaker:Okay, so.
Speaker:So, we got a lot of support, and across Australia, each DWD
Speaker:has been supporting each other.
Speaker:Um, and we got, we got financial support from Victoria, um, South Australia and
Speaker:Tasmania, because they'd been through it and they had funds left over that
Speaker:they put in, because we, we basically spent everything before the election.
Speaker:We said, look, if we don't get pro VAD in, We're not going anywhere.
Speaker:We're dead in the water.
Speaker:Um, so we just said, well, the hell with it.
Speaker:That's going to spend every last dime, effectively, on getting this through.
Speaker:And it proved, it proved good.
Speaker:But we didn't have the sort of funds that Victoria and Western
Speaker:Australia had to do their campaigns.
Speaker:They had heaps of money, you know, and we were just dirt poor.
Speaker:So, um, we reached out and they kindly gave us money to help us get us back
Speaker:on our feet in Um, you know, putting ads and, you know, boosting Facebook
Speaker:and, and all that sort of thing.
Speaker:How come they had more money than you?
Speaker:What was your, what was your It was partly, um, our fault in terms that
Speaker:previous committees weren't as, um, geared up to that, you know,
Speaker:so it just depends on the makeup of committees, how good they are.
Speaker:And some, some, um, DWDs were, um, much better at fundraising than that.
Speaker:And that was, that was a big, Downside, we just left our run too late to do
Speaker:that, um, Go Gentle were there and in some ways they hoovered up the donations
Speaker:a little bit, um, which was unfortunate for us, but, um, I was philosophical
Speaker:about them saying, well, You know, when it comes to the crunch, they've got to
Speaker:step up the mark, otherwise they'll, you know, they'll look like ears.
Speaker:And they did step up the mark, I've got to admit, yeah.
Speaker:Um, so, so they put money into, um, you know, advertising and stuff like
Speaker:that, which, um, we couldn't do.
Speaker:And they, they also gave us The other thing we got from them was expertise
Speaker:in terms of PR sort of stuff and that, and as well, which was great, because
Speaker:they had experience in doing this in the other states, um, so they were good.
Speaker:But, the other, so we, you know, so besides funds, the DWD that helped us
Speaker:the most was actually New South Wales, because, It was in their interest.
Speaker:They, when it looked like we were going to get it through, and, and to be
Speaker:honest, we, the reason we didn't get much support initially was that every time
Speaker:we took Queensland, well, it'll be the last one, it'll be like a hundred years
Speaker:before it gets it through sort of thing.
Speaker:So when it looked like we were going to get it, you know, people
Speaker:suddenly got excited who normally wouldn't have been excited.
Speaker:DWD New South Wales have been incredibly supportive to us, uh, and a very
Speaker:professional, um, unit, um, much more professional than us in a sense.
Speaker:Um, and, but they knew that if we could get it through, it sets
Speaker:their argument so much easier.
Speaker:So the best help we've given to New South Wales is to get this through.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So now it's the embarrassment of being the only state that has it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So is it Labour Party policy in New South Wales?
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I don't know about the policies of the various, um, parties but I believe
Speaker:the Labor, um, leader is against it.
Speaker:Berra Jicklian is against it, but um, but the Nationals, um Hang on, isn't
Speaker:Berra Jicklian's Liberal, isn't she?
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:And, and so the Labor is leader, whoever that is Yeah, I can't remember his name.
Speaker:Is against it.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Right, okay.
Speaker:But the Nationals, um, what's that Berra Um, Barro.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:He's in favor of it, so.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So they're up against it because Right.
Speaker:Unless you get Yeah.
Speaker:This, well, this is the key to Queensland was, was the
Speaker:getting it part of the policy.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:And also, um, you know, Anastasia eventually coming out and
Speaker:saying, I support this, you know, that's, that's massive.
Speaker:It's absolutely massive.
Speaker:They have the, you know, like in in Victoria it was,
Speaker:um, Dan Andrews, you know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's.
Speaker:It can't be overstated how important it is to have the Premier behind something.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Why doesn't the New South Wales opposition leader in favour of it?
Speaker:Is this personal?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:That could be a personal thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Honestly, I have no I've been so focused on Queensland, I
Speaker:have no idea and, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Presumably, yeah, then attention will turn to New South Wales and Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If anyone can push it from a grassroots point of view,
Speaker:it's the New South Wales team.
Speaker:I, uh They are just fabulous.
Speaker:They really, really are good.
Speaker:Um, in fact, they sent us down a bit of a, how about we go for a time of one?
Speaker:We don't, the systems I have don't charge me extra money, it just
Speaker:keeps shite out of the shark tank.
Speaker:Yeah, there's, um, it was, um, interesting that, uh, in New South
Speaker:Wales, they, um, um, at one stage they formed their own party to, um, Push it.
Speaker:And the reason for that is that you get a lot of free advertising
Speaker:if you're actually a candidate.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:People suddenly say, you know, a politician, um, journalist
Speaker:suddenly want to interview you and You get a seat at the, at the,
Speaker:um, meetings before the election.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:There's a bit of a town hall or whatever it is.
Speaker:And it's on that bit of paper, you know.
Speaker:I forget what their party was, what the party was called.
Speaker:But they did that and, um, it, it stymied me a little bit because one
Speaker:of the things I was, I had to do was I had to rewrite the constitution of DWD
Speaker:because these are the jobs that I ended up doing, uh, or participating was, but
Speaker:I was the main mover and also getting, um, we didn't have donation status,
Speaker:you know, uh, charity status at all.
Speaker:Um, and DWD New South Wales, um, didn't either.
Speaker:And I believe they're going for it now.
Speaker:And the reason they told us was that they wanted to do this party thing.
Speaker:And if you, as soon as you charity, you're stuck, you can't be political.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:So, um, at one stage there when it was looking like, oh gee, even though
Speaker:it's Labor Party policy, it's not going anywhere because the Premier
Speaker:hasn't thrown the weight behind it.
Speaker:And so, so, in New South Wales.
Speaker:No, in Queensland.
Speaker:Oh, sorry.
Speaker:Yeah, sorry, in Queensland.
Speaker:So, so, just based on what we were told from DW, the New South Wales, uh, we
Speaker:actually at one stage started the process of getting a political party up and
Speaker:running just so publicity from doing that and, um, would be, would be really great.
Speaker:So, uh, Here's me writing another constitution and doing
Speaker:all this stuff for this party.
Speaker:And I remember it was like, okay, do we or don't we push the,
Speaker:I got everything ready to go.
Speaker:You know, spoke to, spoke to the electoral commission, had it all geared
Speaker:up, spoke to them and all ready to go.
Speaker:Is anyone going to press the big red button?
Speaker:And then it was sort of like, it was as close as that.
Speaker:And then, um, um, the committee finally decided as a no.
Speaker:And as it turned out, that was the right decision.
Speaker:So really the key for New South Wales, if it's not already, would
Speaker:be to get it on as Labour Party.
Speaker:Policy.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Really is the next step they have to take.
Speaker:Yeah, because you can't see the Liberals coming on board.
Speaker:Yeah, so if you are in the chat room and you know the story on New South
Speaker:Wales Labor policies and whether it is their policy, let us know before
Speaker:we wrap up in the next minute or two.
Speaker:But if you are a member of the Labor Party, John Simmons out there, Um,
Speaker:see what the story is in terms of kicking it off, getting it, if it's
Speaker:not, then start at the branch and move it up and see what happens.
Speaker:That's what happened here.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So, um, yeah.
Speaker:Right, Craig, well, I reckon we've probably covered it all.
Speaker:I, is it?
Speaker:I think so.
Speaker:Lemme just see, um, uh, Allison.
Speaker:Look, yeah, can I say a special thanks to Alison, you know, she was, she was great.
Speaker:Um, she knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker:Uh, I don't want to mention names, but she did her, her bit and that's great.
Speaker:And, um, she was at the, at the rally as well.
Speaker:And, uh, um, so yeah, hopefully the next cow off the rank is parents for a secular
Speaker:state school can, can get something up in Queensland, uh, which would be great.
Speaker:Uh, say, I want to say hello to Sarah.
Speaker:Scott too, you know, cause he, he was, he was doing his, he was, even
Speaker:though I cherish life and even though it was, it was excruciating for him
Speaker:reading the Cherish Life stuff and if there's anything of relevance he would
Speaker:forward it on to me cause I, I honestly didn't want to read it unless I had to.
Speaker:You didn't want to subject yourself to it.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:So hello to Scott, um, who else am I supposed to, oh, there's so many
Speaker:people that, uh, contributed in that.
Speaker:You remember Frank Jordan?
Speaker:He was, he had a bit, he was in the mix a bit there with the humanists as
Speaker:well, so, so, um, yeah, so there's.
Speaker:Lots of people, yeah, yeah, yeah, to do with it all.
Speaker:Well, good luck, Craig, with all the work that's still to be done in terms
Speaker:of just the regulations, the paperwork that has to be put in place for all
Speaker:this stuff over the next period of time.
Speaker:So, that's just going to be as time consuming, I can see, as
Speaker:everything else that's been going on.
Speaker:So, um They're great achievements.
Speaker:So, dear listener, a victory.
Speaker:A victory.
Speaker:In the rational, secular, humanist world.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Oh, can I say thank you to Meredith Doig and the Rationalist Society.
Speaker:They were great too.
Speaker:There's so many names I'm going to forget, but Meredith was great as well.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, well done to you and your team.
Speaker:And good luck with just the regulations and have a good break.
Speaker:I will, I intend to.
Speaker:And, uh, and dear listener, I hope you enjoyed that.
Speaker:Um, that was good just to get the behind the scenes, um, and for the history of
Speaker:it, you know, um, it's good to put it on the record as to how it all happened.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, and thank you Trevor for giving me a chance to debrief, because Yep.
Speaker:That's great.
Speaker:Yep, and if people ask you in future, well, what did you do, how do you work?
Speaker:You can just say, well, go watch episode 313, and it's all there.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker:Alright, do this.
Speaker:Now, next week, um, I'll be back with the panel with Joe and Shea
Speaker:and I get to talk about submarines.
Speaker:And boy have I got some stuff to say about submarines and our shitty government
Speaker:who knows nothing about submarines in our Terrible media who know nothing
Speaker:about submarines and I am just going to go off my tree about submarines.
Speaker:So I have a good rant about submarines.
Speaker:So, um, so yeah, so enjoy.
Speaker:We'll talk to you next week.
Speaker:Um, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker:Bye for now.
Speaker:Bye.
Speaker:Bye, dear listener.
Speaker:Wes Hull, good folk in podcast.
Speaker:Deep Throtter here.
Speaker:A follow up from the last podcast in relation to Iren Fuster's
Speaker:fascination with the Magna Carta.
Speaker:Questions to me were, how different was the English in 1215 if the original
Speaker:words of the Magna Carta were read out?
Speaker:Would we have understood any of it?
Speaker:Iron Fustus ye olde English was actually ye olde Latin.
Speaker:Legal documents at the time were written in Latin.
Speaker:Some court documents were in French, and often not even Norman French.
Speaker:Apologies to Joe the tech guy.
Speaker:So in 1215, lawyers and the church were doing the same thing as today.
Speaker:by speaking in technical jargon or a foreign language.
Speaker:Keep the peasants bamboozled and in the dark, in other words.
Speaker:There is a further complication.
Speaker:The first complete translation into English was in 1534.
Speaker:In 1541, someone issued two pages outlining printing
Speaker:mistakes in the 1534 edition.
Speaker:There are three clauses of Magna Carta that still remain on the statute.
Speaker:in England and Wales.
Speaker:The first one is the example that Iron Fist used.
Speaker:I checked it against the uncorrected 1534 edition, and it is the
Speaker:same as the modern statute.
Speaker:I then hunted out a better translation from the Latin.
Speaker:Although the wording is a lot different, it does to me mean the same, although
Speaker:lawyers might have a field day with it.
Speaker:1215 was the time of early Middle English, which is an area of interest for me.
Speaker:So for fun, I translated the first sentence into the English of the time,
Speaker:but I took the liberty of not using any pesky Norman French words, so the
Speaker:peasants of the time could understand.
Speaker:Again, apologies to Joe the tech guy.
Speaker:So here it is, in the better modern English translation, and
Speaker:then in early Middle English.
Speaker:In the first place, we have conceded to God, and by this our present
Speaker:charter confirmed for us And our heirs forever, that the English Church shall
Speaker:be free, and shall have her rights entire, and her liberties inviolate.
Speaker:And we wish that it be thus observed.
Speaker:Alreferest a haven where to go, dear thuvud.
Speaker:And be this, uh, reet.
Speaker:Yetende for us, and our heritage is not silent, That the English Church shall
Speaker:be free, And shall have her right so long, And her peace with broken, And
Speaker:us, lusteth, that it be with us forever.
Speaker:So that's me.
Speaker:Ich danke Joe from Dave's Rotter.
