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Episode 468 - Cameron Leckie - Senate Candidate for Australia’s Voice

Topics:

In this episode, Trevor, Joe, and their guest, Cameron Leckie from Australia's Voice, delve into the latest political and social issues affecting Australia. The conversation covers a range of topics including the inefficacies of AUKUS, the necessity for parliamentary approval before entering wars, economic implications of alliances, and media bias. Cameron provides insight into his candidacy for the Senate, highlighting his background in the military and soil science, and outlines Australia's Voice's policies on housing, bank reform, and taxation. Additionally, the discussion touches on Australia's foreign policy, support for Palestine, and the challenges of addressing critical issues like climate change and economic inequality within the current political framework.

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Setup

00:41 Technical Difficulties and Guest Introduction

02:35 Filling Time with Current Events

05:17 Cameron Joins and Discusses His Background

06:02 Australia's Voice Party and Policies

23:29 Critique of Mainstream Media and Foreign Policy

29:01 China's Influence and Australia's Position

32:28 Soil Science and Agricultural Insights

35:50 Meeting with Students and Staff

36:23 Challenges in Communication

36:42 General Concerns and Government's Role

37:38 Australia's Voice Policy on War

39:10 Parliament's Role in War Decisions

41:52 Nuclear Weapons and U.S. Military Presence

45:36 Critique of U.S. Foreign Policy

49:40 Australia's Defense and Orcas Policy

55:46 Economic and Social Policies

01:03:43 Final Thoughts and Conclusion

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We have a website. www.ironfistvelvetglove.com.au

You can email us. The address is trevor@ironfistvelvetglove.com.au



Transcript
Morgan:

We need to talk about ideas, good ones and bad ones.

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We need to learn stuff about the world.

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We need an honest, intelligent,

thought provoking, and entertaining

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review of what the hell happened on

this planet in the last seven days.

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We need to sit back and listen to

the iron fist and the velvet glove.

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Trevor: Yes, hello and welcome

out there in podcast land.

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This is Trevor, the Iron Fist.

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This is a podcast, this iron

fist and the velvet glove.

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I'm Trevor, AKA, the iron fist.

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Over there on the screen

is Joe, the tech guy.

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How are you, Joe?

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I'm good evening all and somewhere,

uh, trapped in a bad internet

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connection is Cameron Lackey,

who is our guest for tonight.

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And we were chatting to him

and it was all going very well

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for about 10 minutes there.

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And just prior to pressing the

button to go live, um, Cameron's.

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Video froze and we couldn't hear

him, and he's madly scrambling around

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in the background, fusing wires

together and peddling on a bicycle

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to upgrade his internet connection.

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So we're gonna just sort of fill in a

little bit, because to be honest, the

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podcast was about Cameron who is running

in the Senate for Australia's voice.

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And so we're gonna ask him what's

all that about, um, sort of similar

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to what we did last week with

the Socialist Equality Party.

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So if I seem a little bit unprepared

and a little bit out of sorts, it's

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because we're winging it a little bit.

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While we're waiting to see if Cameron

is going to come back and join us, or if

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Joe and I are gonna bumble along with a

few bits and pieces of different things.

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So, um, if you're in the chat, say hello

and we will incorporate your comments.

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So, um, I will put the

chat up so I can see it.

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And yeah, if you, um, if you're

able to join us, um, and make

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comments, feel free to do so.

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Looks like I hear a beep in

the background, which might be

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Cameron joining us and we'll see

if his Internet's working or not.

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Lucky Joe's here.

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So, yeah, um, Australia first, uh,

Australia's voice party is actually,

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uh, it's the one started by, uh,

Fatima Payman, who was the former

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labor, uh, well still a senator, was

a labor senator, and she has, um,

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left and, and started her own party.

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So Cameron's there and sorting things out.

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I'll try not to be distracted by that.

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Um.

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Things we could talk about

in the meantime, Joe?

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Yeah.

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In recent news, um, the Pope died.

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Joe: What a shock.

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Trevor: Yeah.

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And you said wasn't like

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Joe: he was in and out of

hospital for the last month.

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Trevor: Yes.

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You know, I was watching interviews

with people and they talk about, um,

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how shocked they were that he died.

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And it's like, how can you be shocked?

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This was an old man Mm.

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With congestive

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Joe: heart failure, apparently.

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Trevor: Yes.

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And unfortunately had

just met, um, JD Vance.

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Yes.

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Uh, that's, that alone could

knock over a healthy person.

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Joe: So, uh,

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Trevor: apparent he

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Joe: gave up the will to live after that.

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Trevor: That's right.

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You sent me an article titled

The Pope, uh, Pope Loser's Will

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to Live after meeting JD Vance.

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Yes.

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This is, um, from News, news Thumb,

which I guess is like the Onion or

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the chaser or the, I, I assume so.

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Yes.

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Yeah, one of those.

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And, uh.

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The article said, um,

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the pop died a few hours after meeting

JD Vance with Vatican officials saying

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that Pope lost the will to live after a

brief meeting with the vice president,

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after a brief audience that Pope was

heard, to mutter Christ we're all

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doomed, absolutely doomed before adding.

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What's the bloody point?

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Yeah, that'll do it to you.

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There's

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Joe: also been a meme going

around of, I dunno if you know,

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the, the game Bang, marry, kill?

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No.

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So you've given three names and you have

to pick which one you'd bang, which one

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you'd marry, and which one you'd kill.

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Trevor: Oh,

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Joe: yeah.

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Okay.

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And it was the JD Vance one.

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So, so there was the couch for who?

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He'd bang, then there's his wife, right.

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And then there's the Pope

for who he'd kill, right?

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Trevor: Uh, yeah.

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I saw like Donald Trump had a

tweet saying, you know, that he

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and Melania are going to go to.

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The funeral service and that he

was looking forward welcome and

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that he was looking forward to it.

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I wonder if he was even invited.

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Maybe that was way of it.

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Probably not.

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Yes.

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It's probably a way of

ensuring that he got invited.

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So, um, yeah.

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Um, old noisy is in the chat room.

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Uh, good on you.

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Old, noisy.

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So Cameron's still connecting wise,

you know, if it doesn't work out, we'll

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just do it again another night soon.

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'cause it's not long

to go to the election.

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Joe.

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We're in a position with this

election that, um mm-hmm the, the

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coalition opposition are still yet

to release policies about certain

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things and costings and things.

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And they're like, they keep saying,

we'll, we'll release it all in good time.

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And people are voting so.

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They're leaving their run late.

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I think so.

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Um, now that's looking promising.

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I can see Cameron there and

I can see obvious movement.

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So maybe we've Yes, and I can actually

hear Cameron, you're loud and clear.

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Terrific.

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Cameron: Sorry about that, Jen.

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So, uh, everything is fine.

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Then all of a sudden it

decided to shut itself down.

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So technology, eh?

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Trevor: Yeah.

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You are on a standard broadband

connection of some sort there, are you?

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Yeah, right.

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Cameron: We've got, um,

what do you call it?

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Um, NBN, yes.

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Fox is right next to me,

so we should be alright.

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Okay.

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Trevor: Alright.

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Fingers crossed.

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Um, if there's a major problem,

Cameron, we'll just do it another night.

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Like, yeah, what the heck?

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So, we'll, we'll do the best we can.

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So, um, uh, we briefly mentioned

that the paper died and that the

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opposition are yet to release policies

and costings with people still

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vote, you know, starting to vote.

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But anyway, let's talk

about your situation with.

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Australia's voice and you've decided

to be a candidate and you're standing

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in Queensland and you're second on

the ticket for Australia's voice.

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So we interviewed you, um, about nine

months ago because you and I agree

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a lot on foreign policy defense.

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Yep.

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The ridiculousness of orus, our

relationship with the United

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States, how the empire is crumbling

and a whole bunch of things.

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So we're, we're of the same mind

on those things I think we're Yes.

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And that's, that's your

sort of forte if you like.

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Mm-hmm.

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Obviously Australia's voice has got

other policies that we might get to about

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housing and bank reform and other things,

but, um, why don't you kick off and tell

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us, um, you know, who you are and how

it came about that you got invited or

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you asked to be part of the party and.

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And just a bit of a, uh, sort of

a elevator pitch as to why the

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hell you're doing this, Cameron?

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Cameron: Yeah, sure.

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Good question.

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Um, I, I asked myself that as well.

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Um, I guess very quickly, I, myself,

so, you know, I'm a Victorian

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originally, um, joined the Army.

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I was 17, straight outta high school.

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Um, went to the Australian

Defense Force Academy in Duntroon.

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So I graduated as an officer, um,

24 years later, decided it was

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time to do something different.

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I, um, so I ended my military career as

a major, did three deployments, so one

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to East Timor, one to Solomon Islands.

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And I went to, um, uh, Sumatra

after the, um, tsunami, the

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Boxing Day tsunami in 2004.

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And I'm a bit of a slow learner.

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Um, it took me, um.

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At least half my military to

career, start questioning why

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we're doing the things we're doing.

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And then, you know, by the end

of our military career, I, I was

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just sort of thinking, why are

we doing the things we're doing?

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I think we're going against our national

self-interest, um, our alliance with the

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United States to actually detrimental to

our, both our security and prosperity.

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And, and yeah.

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So I got to the point where I think

I, I need to leave the military.

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Um, so I, I finished off an agricultural

engineering degree, um, which I got

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a university metal for, um, and found

myself doing a PhD in soil science,

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uh, and now work as a, a soil scientist

at, um, uh, and that's my profession.

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So that's my, uh, I guess

background in, in a minute or two.

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Mm-hmm.

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As to, and, uh, Trevor, you

know, I write quite extensively.

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I, I sort of write, there's

a bit of a stress relief.

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So when something bugs me about

the world, which happens reasonably

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regularly, um, I, I tend to write.

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And part of that's, you know.

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To, um, you know, bit my frustrations.

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Uh, also part of it's to help a

bit like what you do with this

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podcast bit, um, you know, to help

me understand the world better.

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Um, 'cause I think the more we read,

the more we research, the more we think.

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And I think writing's very good

at articulating, helping you to

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articulate exactly what you think.

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Um, so yeah, and I, much of what I

write about is obviously Australia's

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defense policy and things we're doing

in the world, and think how we could

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approach things different differently.

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So, um, and I guess through that,

um, and you know, I guess reasonably

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active on Twitter in particular, I.

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You know, you make connections, you

meet people, you get opportunities.

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So, um, so through my writing I

became involved with the Independent

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Peaceful Australia Network.

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Um, I did, I made some

submissions to their People's

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Inquiry into the US Alliance.

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Um, and I also, um, on

the, uh, members, sorry,

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Trevor: who's, who's that group?

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What's it called again?

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Independent one called

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Cameron: ipa.

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So it's a national group.

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It's independent and

Peaceful Australia Network.

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So it's basically, uh, an organization

of people who want us to be independent

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and peaceful, um, in the world.

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And so they've actually, they've done

some quite good work looking at things

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like the Forced Posture Agreement,

which we might talk about later.

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Um, and, and the Alliance and

orcus and things like that.

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Yeah.

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Um, you know, things that don't sort

of tend to get discussed in the,

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uh, amongst the duopoly and in our

sort of mainstream political debate.

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Um, and also Australians

for War Powers reform.

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Trevor: Mm.

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Cameron: Um, and that's an organization

who argues that, uh, which I firmly

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believe that we should have the

Parliament vote on the decision to

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go to war as in an overseas war, not

with regards to defending ourselves.

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Um, rather than just having it

at the whim of the Prime Minister

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or the, the executive government.

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Um, and, you know, I think that as, as

the most important decision the government

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can make, it's sort of in a democracy,

it should be a democratic decision.

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So, um, yeah, I got involved

in those organizations.

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And then, um, I guess where all this

Australia's voice, uh, started from was I

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did a speech last year, last Palm Sunday.

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Um.

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In King George Square in Brisbane.

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Uh, and basically, you know, spoke

about orus and what a bad deal it

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was and why we should get out of it.

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And from that, I, you know, a couple of

people came up to me, uh, afterwards,

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uh, and one of them was Michelle

McDonald, who's a, uh, journalist who

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works in the communications man, uh,

manager for the Anglican Diocese in

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Brisbane, or, uh, Southeast Queensland.

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Um, so we had a bit of a chat and,

you know, a few conversations.

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Um, and there, yeah, so that's sort of

where this Australia's voice started from.

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'cause, uh, earlier this year is,

um, as Australia's voice sort of

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only formed late last year, um,

and they're looking for candidates.

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Um, and Michelle gave me a, a

call, we had a few chats and I

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had a chat to Senator, uh, payment

and I did an interview with them.

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Um, and I think our, our values align

and what we're sort of arguing for Align.

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And, um, when I got the opportunity

to be on that Senate um, ticket,

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I thought, well put your money

where your mouth is, and here I am.

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Trevor: Yep.

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Yep.

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So, um, last week we had the Socialist

Equality Party on and they had the

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difficulty where they needed 1500 members

in order to be a registered party.

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And they had problems with that,

with the electoral commission.

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And, um, when you said you were running,

and I, you know, I looked and I thought,

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Australia's voice, who are they?

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And then I saw that it was the

party created by, um, Fatima Payman.

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And basically the system dear Listener,

works like this, that if an existing

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sitting member of Parliament, um, forms

a party, then as I understand it, you

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don't need that 1500 member requirement.

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The fact that you've just got somebody in

the parliament gets you across the line

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for registration as a political party.

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So, um, so, um, does that all

sound correct to you or you

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never thought about too much?

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Uh, I.

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Cameron: I couldn't actually answer that.

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Um,

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Trevor: right, fair enough.

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That, that's just my understanding.

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Cameron: I'm not sure, I'm not sure

on the numbers, but I know, I know,

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I think it was October, November

when they actually got registered.

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Um, yeah.

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So, um, but the mechanics of all that

I, I wasn't in involved with, so, yeah.

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Um, yeah.

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But it's obviously, you know, we're on

the Senate ticket in, in Queensland,

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new South Wales, Victoria, south

Australian, Western Australia.

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Yeah.

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Um, so the Australian Electoral

Commission's obviously given us the

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thumbs up that we're legit a legitimate

party and, you know, people vote for us.

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Trevor: Now, some people might be

under the impression that the Fatima

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Payman party, let's call it that,

well, that the Australia voice being

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associated with her, that she was out

to create some sort of Muslim party or

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something like that Islamic party, so.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, it.

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Um, what do you say to that?

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Is that true and what's the story

with the religious sort of Yeah.

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Um, element of this party?

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Cameron: I'm an atheist, so

that gives you a bit of a hint.

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Um, no.

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So obviously, uh, Senator Payman

is, is a Muslim, um, and they're

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members of the Party, a Muslim.

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Um, and I think we have reasonable

amount of support, uh, uh, in

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the mus uh, Islamic community.

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So, for example, um, Muslim votes

matter has endorsed our lead candidate,

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Michelle McDonald in Queensland as

their, um, sort of Queensland candidate.

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Um, so yes, we have support in

the, um, Islamic community and

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that's great, but you know, it's

a party for all Australians.

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So, you know, the three, um, it's

the three candidates in Queensland.

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Um, I got Christians myself as a, um,

as a, um, atheist, um, and I mean.

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You know, I'm a soils, um, and, you know,

how do you help grow a healthy garden?

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We have lots of diversity and I

think what we need at this point

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in Australia is sort of political

development, is we need more diversity.

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Um, you know, people representing us.

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Uh, you know, when you get a group

of people together from different

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backgrounds, different contexts and

different experiences, whether that's,

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you know, where they come from,

religion, education, whatever it is,

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that's when you get better outcomes.

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So, um, yeah, I guess, and that's the, I

think that's the strength of Australia's

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voice, is it, you know, it's a party with

all Australians can, can, um, sort of, um,

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be a member of, it's not, you know, linked

to, it's not, you know, a a Muslim party.

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Trevor: Yep.

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Just, just as further background for

people who aren't aware, um, Fatima

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was a member of the Labor Party.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, and basically crossed the

floor over the issue of, of

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Palestine and Gaza, where she was,

um, uh, seeking, roughly speaking.

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Recognition.

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Yes.

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Recognition of Palestine.

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And, um, and that's why she then left

the Labor Party and joined, um, well

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started eventually her own party.

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So, um, I think like we'll get

into talking about the policies

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and things, um, in a moment.

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Um, I guess one, the first, the very

first question I have in my mind is

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why not say The Greens, for example,

I, I'm looking at a lot of the policies

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and we'll talk about 'em, but Yeah.

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Um, you know, I think she crossed

the floor to join a motion that

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the Greens had about Palestine.

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So any major differences

or can you talk to that?

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Or, or, yeah.

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Well,

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Cameron: the, the way, um, Senator

Repayment puts it is that, um,

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Australia's voice sort of situated

between the greens and labor.

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So I think, um, you know, labor's

moved more right over time and,

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you know, arguably, uh, doesn't

particularly represent workers.

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Um.

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Um, or to, to the, the

extent that they used to.

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Um, and the green's obviously,

you know, big on the environmental

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issues and social issues.

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Uh, whereas Australia's voice link

is aiming know, you know, the average

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Australian, the working Australian.

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Um, so I think that's where,

where we fit into that spectrum.

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And yes, um, there, I mean, um, I

guess, uh, in my view, the vote we're

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competing for is, you know, we're

trying to get the liberals, we're

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not really competing with the greens.

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We're, we're trying to get the, sorry,

not the liberals, you know, those labor

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voters who are disaffected with labor.

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And I think there's, um, quite a

proportion of them are, and also young

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people who the, um, you know, the way the

economy is and that is not really working

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to their benefit, uh, um, at the moment.

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So I think that's the sort of

demographic that we're, we're looking at.

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Um, and also, you know,

people who, um, um.

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I mean, personally myself.

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I mean, uh, I hadn't heard

of, um, Senator Payman.

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I was, you know, western Australian

senator till, until she crossed the floor.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, but I mean, all the rights and

rungs and, you know, October 7th,

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a mass blah, blah, blah, all that.

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But, um, that's no excuse

in my view for a genocide.

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Um, and I think, um, you know,

I have no doubt in my mind

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that that's what's occurring.

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Uh, we have the Genocide Convention

Australians signed up to that.

364

:

We have responsibilities under

that, which, um, the current

365

:

government's not meeting.

366

:

And if, and liberal deliberate,

um, party was in power, I doubt

367

:

they'd be meeting as well.

368

:

Mm-hmm.

369

:

That doesn't sit well with me.

370

:

Um, so I think that people are

disaffected with the, you know, the

371

:

direction of our two main parties,

which really, I, I call 'em a duopoly.

372

:

'cause I think there's not really

that much difference between

373

:

the two on the key issues.

374

:

Morgan: Yep.

375

:

Cameron: Um, well, I think there's,

you know, so proportion of the

376

:

population who, you know, here's

an, uh, an alternative that you can.

377

:

Vote for, um, who, you know, we're

unequivocal on that position that

378

:

there's a genocide occurring in Palestine

and that needs to stop and Australia

379

:

needs to stop being complicit in it.

380

:

Trevor: Yeah.

381

:

Sort of labor.

382

:

Labor seems to talk with pride about

being in lockstep with the liberals

383

:

over foreign of, you know, defense

and foreign policy as, as if this is a

384

:

good thing and it's a terrible choice.

385

:

Cameron: Uh, well, yeah.

386

:

So, um, I guess this is another reason

why, why I'm running is like, I, I, you

387

:

know, I'm a sinus engineer, that sort

like thinking in systems thinking like

388

:

terms of evolution and the, um, you know,

really the, the last four or 500 years,

389

:

whenever we wanna start, of the western

world being dominant in the global system.

390

:

I think that's coming to an end.

391

:

Um, you know, arguably you can,

you could make an argument it

392

:

has already ended, um, and.

393

:

Um, that's not the end of the world.

394

:

I actually think it's a great opportunity

for Australia, um, given where we're

395

:

located in the world and what we

can offer the rest of the world.

396

:

Um, but the liberal and labor parties,

um, you know, they've, they've developed

397

:

their power base and evolved over

time in that context of a western

398

:

dominated world, particularly, you

know, since the end of the last 30 odd

399

:

years, since the end of the Cold War.

400

:

And, um, you know, the unipolar

moment when the United States

401

:

was the dominant world power.

402

:

Um, that's world's coming to an end.

403

:

But what quite happened, there's a great

little, well, not little book, great

404

:

book, a bit of a heavy read called on

the Psychology of Military Incompetence.

405

:

Mm-hmm.

406

:

One of the quotes in that is, um, is that,

you know, the more events proved, uh,

407

:

people wrong, the firm and their beliefs.

408

:

You know, in their, the stronger

their beliefs in their sort of

409

:

existing preconceptions became

that, was it butchered that quote.

410

:

But basically the idea is that, you

know, the world's changing around them,

411

:

but they couldn't adapt with that.

412

:

So they just doubled down on

what they originally thought.

413

:

And I, to me, that's what's happening

with the, the liberal labor parties.

414

:

They're clinging fingertips to the

existing system because that's, you

415

:

know, what they're comfortable with.

416

:

That's what got them in power.

417

:

That that's what maintains their power.

418

:

Even though that's dissolving,

you know, liter as speakers.

419

:

Like you look at Trump and sanctions

and where the US is heading.

420

:

Um, and so from a, you know, a.

421

:

Evolutionary perspective,

what's gonna happen?

422

:

There's gonna be any sprouts in somewhere

coming else elsewhere, and that's

423

:

gonna replace the existing system.

424

:

So I guess, I think I, I

think that's what we need.

425

:

We need alternatives.

426

:

They're not gonna come from the core.

427

:

You know, we need different levels of the,

the levels of thinking that created, the

428

:

problems we have now aren't gonna fix it.

429

:

We need new levels of thinking, new

op alternative views, new ideas.

430

:

Uh, and from that, um, you know, hopefully

we'll come to a better way of, you

431

:

know, managing our relationship with

the rest of the world and, and, and, you

432

:

know, getting along, um, as opposed to

the direction we're currently heading.

433

:

Trevor: Mm-hmm.

434

:

You and I, uh, hang out in a, in a,

a bubble where basically everybody

435

:

recognizes that orcas is the most

ridiculous hair brainin screen,

436

:

uh, scheme that was ever dreamt up.

437

:

Yeah.

438

:

And, and it's clear that America's

not gonna save us from anything.

439

:

It's gonna drag us into war like it always

has and there's no denying the rise of.

440

:

China and we're, it's our best customer

in that normally you try and improve your

441

:

relationships with important customers.

442

:

So, so we are in a, in a world where

we see things completely differently.

443

:

Mm-hmm.

444

:

Like I say to people, you know, China's

not the threat that it's made out to be.

445

:

It doesn't have a history

of invading countries.

446

:

If they want the stuff from us, it's

just so much easier for them to buy it.

447

:

Like, it's just so much easier and

it's really difficult to, to send

448

:

a, a, a, a force across an ocean

and start taking things forcibly.

449

:

But if you sit in a coffee shop

and talk with people in this

450

:

way, they will think you're nuts.

451

:

You're a commie.

452

:

You're, you're completely

a lunatic, you're a clown.

453

:

You're like, people are so indoctrinated

into, into thinking that, well, I.

454

:

Uh, China bad.

455

:

Um, America good.

456

:

Um, and Israel justified and, and all

these things because of the, I'm thinking

457

:

boomers in particular here, Cameron.

458

:

Um, they're just indoctrinated

by a mainstream media that

459

:

is, is forcing that onto them.

460

:

And, and I get, you know, I see it

all the time, you know, for my sins, I

461

:

subscribe to the Courier mail just so I

can see what nonsense they're producing.

462

:

I read it as if it's an LMP newsletter,

propaganda sheet, which is what it is

463

:

with a bit of sport and weather thrown in.

464

:

And, um, but what really gets me

sometimes, Cameron, and I think

465

:

you get this, is the A, B, C.

466

:

Mm-hmm.

467

:

Following a lot of the lead of, of the

Murdoch press and repeating a lot of the

468

:

nonsense when you would think they're not

under the same pressures to do so, but.

469

:

So many of the journalists fail to

provide the context of these conflicts

470

:

and, and parrot the same nonsense.

471

:

So you, I've seen it in your posts and

things, your thoughts on the ABC's role

472

:

in, in this indoctrination process.

473

:

Cameron: Yeah.

474

:

Yeah.

475

:

So if you look at my Twitter feed, I

regularly dissect a, B, C articles.

476

:

Um, I think the A BC is a very

important, this is why I'm so critical

477

:

of the A, B, C, because I think

they're a crucial, um, part of our

478

:

national sort of infrastructure.

479

:

Like, you know, if we need that, um,

government funded way of, you know,

480

:

being able to disseminate information and

if, if they did that in accordance with

481

:

their charter, et cetera, um, you know,

I think we need that and I support that.

482

:

But the way the A, BC is, and it's

reporting on pretty much anything to

483

:

do with, and I mean, my main focus

is foreign affairs, so I, I'll, I'll

484

:

stick to that, but it, it is, um.

485

:

I don't know, woeful might be,

might be too strong a word, but

486

:

it's getting towards that, that end.

487

:

And, and the way they, they

do it in the main is what?

488

:

Yeah.

489

:

It's a US journalist called Patrick

Lawrence, who's, who's brilliant, um,

490

:

consortium news if you, if you wanna

follow him, he publishes there and

491

:

I think he's got a substack as well.

492

:

But he's, he's brilliant, but he

calls it the power of leaving out.

493

:

So it's what you were talking

about before, it's leaving out that

494

:

context, you know, the historical,

um, reasoning, the timelines and

495

:

they do it over and over again.

496

:

And it's also the subtleties.

497

:

So, um, um, in language, so for

example, in, um, you know, the Hamas

498

:

had, you know, hostages it took, um,

and Israel, you know, also got a lot of

499

:

Palestinians and was the subtle language.

500

:

So when they did the exchanges.

501

:

The A, b, C called them the Israeli

hostages, even though most of them

502

:

were actually military members

of the, um, Israeli defense force

503

:

versus Palestinian prisoners.

504

:

So I was just giving that little slant

of legitimacy to the Israeli hostages and

505

:

Trevor: prisoners who'd never been charged

with anything, never faced a court of war.

506

:

That's right.

507

:

And, and we're essentially hostages.

508

:

Cameron: Exactly.

509

:

So it's, but it's those little slants

and, you know, and for the, the average

510

:

reader who's just glossing over.

511

:

Um, and I mean, because I, I know the

areas that I focus on, I think I have

512

:

a reasonably good group of what's

going on, and, uh, I apply that same

513

:

template to every other story I read.

514

:

And you think, you know, I'm

always thinking, what's the angle?

515

:

And that, because it's never,

you know, it's, it's narrative

516

:

management, you know, that's what,

that's what the ABC has become.

517

:

It's managing a narrative.

518

:

Um.

519

:

And you know, that narrative might,

may or may not more often not have

520

:

much relationship to, you know, the

actual cause of events or what's

521

:

happening in the world, but it's

there to make a sink a certain way.

522

:

Um, so it can support the government

policies where that's coming from.

523

:

I don't know, is that

internal to the A, B, C?

524

:

Is it, you know, the management?

525

:

Is it government dictate?

526

:

I don't know, but, um, it's doing

Australia a major disservice.

527

:

Um, and a practical, practical, uh,

example, this is what's happened in the

528

:

last couple of weeks with Indonesia.

529

:

Mm.

530

:

Uh, and the, and the Russian,

you know, the Russians gonna

531

:

have a, you know, military.

532

:

Air base or use Indonesian

air bases and that.

533

:

Um, so yeah, big hoo-ha and, you

know, storming a teacup as far as I'm

534

:

concerned, because you just have to

look at Indonesia's foreign policy and

535

:

there's no way on earth they're gonna

let a foreign power, unlike us have

536

:

a military base, you know, permanent

military base on their, on their soil.

537

:

Um, sorry, I was just lost my

train of thought where I was going.

538

:

Oh, sorry.

539

:

But what's Indonesia just joined Bricks.

540

:

Yes.

541

:

You know, they joined Bricks as a full

member last year, and there is no mention

542

:

whatsoever in virtually any Australian

media on the fact, including a, B,

543

:

C that Indonesia has joined bricks.

544

:

Yeah.

545

:

And what as, as has Thailand and Malaysia

as, um, you know, partner countries,

546

:

Vietnam's looking at joining now.

547

:

And just in the last couple of weeks

there's been, uh, noise about that.

548

:

Um, and it's like, we don't even get,

you know, it's not even mentioned

549

:

like this is, this is like, um.

550

:

I, I, you know, this is a, an enormous

change in, in, you know, trading

551

:

relationships and diplomatic relationships

and, and that, and we just head in the

552

:

sand ignoring it as if it's irrelevant.

553

:

Um, yep.

554

:

It doesn't get

555

:

Trevor: any media play at all.

556

:

I've spoken with friends who are well

informed about things, you know, doctors

557

:

who keep an eye on politics and stuff, and

I, I say, what do you think about bricks?

558

:

And they go, what's that?

559

:

I have no idea.

560

:

Um, that's

561

:

Cameron: right.

562

:

And like yeah, brick and bricks

is now bigger than the G seven.

563

:

Yes.

564

:

And it's growing bigger, so each

year it is gonna get bigger.

565

:

The G sevens become less

influential, less powerful.

566

:

Yes.

567

:

Um, and you know.

568

:

My way of thinking, that's

an enormous opportunity.

569

:

Trevor: Um, yes,

570

:

Cameron: John Men, I put on Twitter today,

uh, he had one of the little graphics I

571

:

did for an article and it had, um, you

know, flags over all the countries with

572

:

Australia heading north and, you know,

had all the flags, India, China, you know,

573

:

all the, uh, Asian countries in between.

574

:

Um, and I think like,

and we're base for that.

575

:

And it's like, you know, this is the

future that's haw bannis, you know,

576

:

well known Singaporean diplomat.

577

:

Um, you know, rights, you've got a

little book, it's freely available.

578

:

Um, the Asian 21st century, we're living

in the Asian 21st century and we're,

579

:

you know, at the bottom end of Asia,

we've got all these resources and things

580

:

that we can trade and benefit from, yet

we've got our head in the sand ignoring,

581

:

you know, the elephant in the room.

582

:

And I think that's gonna be to our

great detriment if we don't sort

583

:

of wake up, um, pretty damn quick.

584

:

Trevor: Yeah, it's, it's, um, I.

585

:

It's a cultural ignorance as well.

586

:

I think in that we'd been just

force fed this, you know, a America,

587

:

you know, basically indoctrinates

everybody that, you know, they go

588

:

around the world protecting democracy.

589

:

It used to be, uh, capitalism.

590

:

But, um, you know, you sort of

look at, uh, the Chinese system

591

:

now and it's, it's, it's got a

lot of capitalist elements to it.

592

:

So they talk about, you know, protecting

freedom and, and, and democracy.

593

:

And really you've just gotta stop with

people and say, look, just because

594

:

we in the West are used to a certain

system now of predominantly two party

595

:

elections and our voting system, that

we just arrogantly think that that's

596

:

the best way of running a country.

597

:

And that's democracy that

reflects the will of the people.

598

:

And anything else than that is.

599

:

Is so inferior and, um, the

poor people who live under it

600

:

or under authoritarian regimes.

601

:

And it just totally ignores the

culture of, of, of different cultures.

602

:

And people operate in different ways.

603

:

And the proof is in the pudding in China,

like the way they've lifted so many

604

:

people out of poverty and improve the

living standards of so many people that,

605

:

um, that whatever label you want to call

the system that they've been operating

606

:

under, it's been pretty damn effective.

607

:

And when you ask, when they poll people

in China, Western backed groups, poll

608

:

them, um, in situations where they

know they're getting honest answers,

609

:

uh, there's enormous satisfaction

from the local population there.

610

:

So we are just, we've gotta grow

up in this country and recognize

611

:

that, that Asia has a, and China in

particular a, a collective mentality.

612

:

That we don't, and maybe we should

start adopting some of this, this

613

:

whole sort of freedom of the individual

forgetting about the collective, the

614

:

responsibility to the collective group.

615

:

You know, we've got stuff we can learn

from these people, but we're so arrogant

616

:

that we dismiss them as primitive,

617

:

Cameron: arrogant, hubristic.

618

:

Um, you know, pride comes

from before the fall.

619

:

Um, and you know, another reason

why I'm running is because, uh, in

620

:

the Army used to use this term like,

admire a problem rather than fixing it.

621

:

You admire the problem.

622

:

Um, mm.

623

:

We do a lot of that in Australia and our

politics, you know, it's all about the

624

:

big announcement, the glossy brochures,

the, the 24 hour news cycle or whatever.

625

:

Um, but we're not particularly

good at actually fixing issues.

626

:

So when you never fix issues, of

course, you know, they keep popping up.

627

:

Over time, they get

bigger, they get worse.

628

:

Uh, whereas you look at China, I'm not

saying China's perfect by any means, like

629

:

any country's got, you know, problems

and issues and all that sort of stuff.

630

:

But from what I can tell,

um, they fix problems.

631

:

You know, they come up with plans, they

put the resource resources towards it.

632

:

It's largely done by consensus from what I

can understand of their political system.

633

:

So we call a rubber stamp.

634

:

That's because we don't understand,

you know, the Chinese culture and, and

635

:

you know, how they build consensus.

636

:

Um, and I was very fortunate last year.

637

:

I actually went to China for a week.

638

:

Um, yeah,

639

:

Trevor: I

640

:

Cameron: was

641

:

Trevor: gonna ask you about that.

642

:

Yeah.

643

:

Was that, I saw that to do

with soil sort of stuff.

644

:

Cameron: Yeah.

645

:

Yeah.

646

:

So my, in my employment, I got

a, uh, a, um, study exchange.

647

:

And this is like one thing I will

give the government a pat on the back.

648

:

Um, see, uh, I can't remember

the exact exact name.

649

:

It's, um, Australian government funded,

um, program, Australia, China, um,

650

:

sorry, I can't remember the name.

651

:

But there's a, there's a foundation

basically to help improve

652

:

Australian China relations.

653

:

They put out grants, um, and

I was fortunate to go with my

654

:

university to, um, to China.

655

:

Went to Lanzo and Yang Ling,

which is on the Yellow River.

656

:

Um, and you know, Lanzo is a

third tier Chinese sitter city.

657

:

And oh my goodness, if that's a third tier

city, I would hate to see a first tier.

658

:

I mean, there's still, you can still see

there's, you know, areas for development.

659

:

It's not all wealthy in that, but, um.

660

:

The infrastructure

661

:

Trevor: is incredible, the

662

:

Cameron: infrastructure's being

built, the efforts they're putting in.

663

:

Um, and like for example, I think

on, you know, Australia, there's a

664

:

paper put out not long ago about the

Australian agricultural workforce.

665

:

Uh, I think it was a year or two ago,

and saying, you know, agriculture might

666

:

be without a workforce if we don't

do something to fix, you know, the

667

:

number of graduates who coming through

to, to fill agricultural positions.

668

:

And we went to one university

from one province in China, and I

669

:

think every province in China has

an agricultural focus university.

670

:

And they graduate 15,000 students a year.

671

:

Trevor: Wow.

672

:

Wow.

673

:

So

674

:

Cameron: when you've had, and I was

just looking just before we came out.

675

:

There's a thing on the leading iq,

you know, country's leading iq, uh,

676

:

um, in the world and China, um, you

know, tops that, so you have lots

677

:

of people and lots of smart people.

678

:

What does that mean?

679

:

You can solve problems.

680

:

So I think yes, that, you know.

681

:

Obviously, you know, there's different

context and, and when they've got

682

:

such limited land area as they have

per capita arable land area, uh,

683

:

unlike Australia, the margin for

error for getting things wrong as

684

:

far as food production is, is slim.

685

:

So they have to put a lot of effort in it.

686

:

Um, but yeah, there's, there's so many

things we can learn, um, if we were

687

:

just willing to have a bit more, um, you

688

:

Trevor: know, but surely in, in the

mind of JD Vance, there's just a

689

:

bunch of peasants and you were going

over there to tell how it's done.

690

:

Cameron: I mean, this is just

good material for memes, isn't it?

691

:

Like how, how do you like when they

make comments like that, it's just

692

:

complete ignorance, complete hubris.

693

:

Um, and, and you know that you

can tell, you know, they're in

694

:

positions of power, but you can

tell they're not serious people.

695

:

Um, I guess maybe, maybe it not might

resonate with their core voters or

696

:

whatever, but it's obviously not

gonna resonate in fixing problems

697

:

or with the rest of the world.

698

:

And actually, you know, it's just,

it's joke material really, isn't it?

699

:

Like, yeah.

700

:

It's

701

:

Trevor: in, in the comments.

702

:

Julia says, preach Trevor.

703

:

What do you mean, Julia?

704

:

What do you mean preach?

705

:

I'm a bit worried about is that

a negative one or what's, what

706

:

do you mean by that, Julia?

707

:

But anyway, make a comment and I'll,

I'll try and figure that one out.

708

:

But,

709

:

Cameron: um, see, old noisy is talking

about the, um, the poster on my wall.

710

:

It's not a geological poster, it's

the Australian saw classification.

711

:

So close.

712

:

Right.

713

:

Trevor: Okay.

714

:

There you go.

715

:

Just so you can turn

around and refer to it.

716

:

So yeah.

717

:

So just before we leave the soil thing

then, like I take it that you learned as

718

:

much from them as they learned from you.

719

:

Is that, what, was it a exchange of

information two A or were you there

720

:

for other, how was it supposed to work?

721

:

Cameron: Yeah, well, I mean,

we, we went to a couple of

722

:

universities, uh, two universities.

723

:

We, you know, met with the, the,

um, you know, students and some

724

:

of the staff had some tours.

725

:

So, I mean, we didn't get into

technical details of that, but it's

726

:

just, it's interesting, um, you know,

a different approach to the world.

727

:

And it's funny, like.

728

:

Um, their English varied.

729

:

Um, they could, because they, the English

is the language they use for a lot of

730

:

their papers, like, and that, but, um, but

they, 'cause the, actually the areas we

731

:

went to, there's not a lot of, you know,

English speaking people actually visit.

732

:

Um, so I think it was a good

opportunity for 'em to actually

733

:

practice their, their English.

734

:

But, so, you know, communications,

there are some challenges there.

735

:

And my ability to learn

Chinese is about zero.

736

:

I, I had, I started with one word

and I think I finished with two.

737

:

Um, um, but the, the conversation

we had over, over, and I treated

738

:

us like, you know, kings, we, you

know, we were very well treated,

739

:

um, um, and respectfully treated.

740

:

Um, but what sort of, you know,

just general chitchat is they have

741

:

exactly the same problems as what we

have, as in, you know, what are they

742

:

worried about, how much it costs to

buy a house except, you know, they

743

:

save for a house before they buy it.

744

:

Whereas we go into debt and buy a

house, but it's, you know, they have

745

:

exactly the same, um, sort of concerns.

746

:

Um, and, you know.

747

:

What's China about?

748

:

In my view, it's about trying to fix

China's, you know, not fix China's

749

:

problems to, to develop China so it can,

you know, address its challenges and raise

750

:

the standard of living for its people.

751

:

And I mean that's, I think,

you know, that's, isn't that

752

:

the purpose of government?

753

:

Mm-hmm.

754

:

Isn't that what the purpose of

it all, it's all about is to,

755

:

to make people's lives better.

756

:

Trevor: And, and putting a whole lot of

troops on a ship and sending 'em over

757

:

to Australia to invade to start taking

stuff is pretty low on the, on the, the

758

:

Cameron: order.

759

:

Yeah.

760

:

Especially when you can just, you

know, put some money in a bank

761

:

account and transfer it somewhere.

762

:

That's, yeah.

763

:

It doesn't, doesn't really stand

out to much scrutiny, I don't think.

764

:

Trevor: Yeah.

765

:

Do it the easy way.

766

:

So, so, um, let's talk some policies then.

767

:

Um, yep.

768

:

So on your Twitter feed, uh, you

gave four reasons why you are, you,

769

:

you've, you're running, the first

one was the power to declare war.

770

:

So what's the Australia's

voice policy on that?

771

:

Cameron: Yeah.

772

:

So, um, pretty clear the, the Australian's

voice policy is that, um, the Parliament

773

:

should make the decision to go to war.

774

:

Mm-hmm.

775

:

Um, so I mean, and that's one of

when, when I sort of discussing my

776

:

potential candidacy with, um, with,

um, Senator Payman, and she asked me

777

:

for, um, three things, you know, three

things I, I would like to happen.

778

:

That was number one on my list.

779

:

Mm-hmm.

780

:

Um, and she straight away

said, yep, we agree with that.

781

:

So, um, yeah, and I mean, you know, we

take it for granted 'cause we're not at

782

:

war, but where we are in the world with

the United States and where it is, China's

783

:

rising, United States getting desperate.

784

:

The cha this is not an

abstract thing in my view.

785

:

We're actually in a position

where, um, you know, the United

786

:

States gets desperate enough.

787

:

Not, not, you know, it'll be, it'll all,

they'll, they'll create a, a reason.

788

:

So, you know, it'd be Taiwan or you

know, Chinese aggression or something.

789

:

There'll be some reason, but you know.

790

:

You, you just have to

scrape away the surface.

791

:

And we know it'll be the United States

in an order, in an effort to try and,

792

:

you know, resurrect its position in the

world, could trigger a conflict with

793

:

China and Australia, you know, based

on orus, the forced posture agreement.

794

:

And that will be drawn into that.

795

:

And the only safeguard we have to

prevent us being dragged into a war

796

:

with China, you know, the source of our

prosperity is that the Parliament has

797

:

the vote that has the power to say no.

798

:

So that's, you know, I I, I put that

as almost an existential, uh, issue.

799

:

So you, I'm more worried about the

state of our soil, the state of our

800

:

environment in the big picture for

our future than I'm about conflict.

801

:

But if we get dragged into a conflict

like that, all that's irrelevant.

802

:

Trevor: Mm.

803

:

Cameron: So we need, you know, we

need the capacity for the Parliament

804

:

to nip that in the bud before we, you

know, end up goodness knows, where

805

:

Trevor: if, if you can't get a majority

decision in the Parliament, then

806

:

you just shouldn't be going to war.

807

:

And it's not like, um, it's

necessarily so super urgent.

808

:

So our entry into Iraq and Afghanistan and

all that, we had all the time in the world

809

:

to convene Parliament and vote about it.

810

:

But instead, we just get the Prime

Minister and not even the full cabinet,

811

:

just a handful of his closest advisors.

812

:

Um, you know, sitting around going,

yeah, I think we should do this, and,

813

:

and committing us to these things.

814

:

So,

815

:

Cameron: and, and that's the thing if

like, it's easy to create excuses and, you

816

:

know, normally it's about intelligence.

817

:

Yeah.

818

:

It's an excuse, not a reason.

819

:

You know, I'm saying from what's our

principle, you know, we're a democracy,

820

:

therefore this decision, which can

send us off into a totally different

821

:

trajectory of our future, including,

you know, an existential risk.

822

:

Um, so that's the principle is that

the parliament should decide that not

823

:

just, um, the the, the executive, but

if you look through history, you know,

824

:

and from, you know, or any of the

conflicts Australia's been involved

825

:

in, for us to actually go to war, you

know, it takes months of preparation.

826

:

Um, so time is not an issue.

827

:

Trevor: Yep, yep.

828

:

Cameron: And, and actually time.

829

:

The longer it takes, the better because

it's easy in the heat of the moment,

830

:

easier in the heat of the moment.

831

:

You know, people, you know, rush of

blood, alpha, male chest beating.

832

:

Political opportunism, you know,

it's much easier in that short term

833

:

to say, yes, we're gonna do it.

834

:

But once you are, because once you're

committed, we had the, the inquiry into

835

:

overseas armed conflict and they put a few

pathetic little, you know, um, additional

836

:

requirements of having to report back

to the parliament that last year.

837

:

But, you know, they missed the point.

838

:

Yeah.

839

:

Nothing's really changed.

840

:

It's just window dressing.

841

:

Um, because once you've made that

decision, once you've engaged to war

842

:

too late, you know, it is too late.

843

:

So you need to make sure that decisions,

I'm not saying we shouldn't go to war.

844

:

There might be reasons when we

could, I just can't think of

845

:

anything off the top of my head.

846

:

Trevor: Yeah.

847

:

But

848

:

Cameron: you, you don't cross that

line until you've got all your i's

849

:

dotted, your t's crossed and you're

doing it for a very good reason.

850

:

Trevor: It, it should not be easy.

851

:

It shouldn't just be a

prime Minister's decision.

852

:

Even we don't have nuclear weapons here.

853

:

A friend of mine, Cameron Riley

has this joking, uh, hypothesis

854

:

or theory about America with um.

855

:

Launching nuclear weapons in anger against

another country that the president, um,

856

:

shouldn't be able to do that so easily.

857

:

And in fact, the key to pressing

the button should be, uh, surgically

858

:

implanted into the vice president.

859

:

And if the president wants to launch

nuclear weapons, he is gonna work, work

860

:

with the team and carve into the chest

of the vice president to pull out the key

861

:

to fire the nuclear weapons on the basis

that if he's not prepared to do that,

862

:

'cause it's an ugly thing to do, then he

shouldn't be sending a nuclear weapon off.

863

:

So even better

864

:

Cameron: do it for his kids.

865

:

Trevor: Yes.

866

:

So, um, I'm not suggesting that as a,

as a policy for Australia's voice, but

867

:

the concept is there that should be,

you've gotta recognize what you're doing.

868

:

Cameron: Yes, exactly.

869

:

And I mean, every, really, every time

we've gone to war, why have we done it?

870

:

It hasn't been for our defense,

871

:

Trevor: it's

872

:

Cameron: been to, for our, um, alliance.

873

:

Yes.

874

:

So that is why we've gone and,

um, Clinton, Fernand Fernandez and

875

:

his book, um, sub Imperial Power.

876

:

You familiar with that?

877

:

Trevor: Um, yes, I, yes, I think,

878

:

Cameron: yeah, I've got it right here.

879

:

Sub Imperial, power y.

880

:

Trevor: Yeah.

881

:

Cameron: Yeah, I think I,

I think I covered that.

882

:

I just got one.

883

:

It's only a small one, but

it's a great little book.

884

:

But he said they knew when we went to

the Iraq War that it would increase the

885

:

risk of domestic terrorism in Australia,

but they took the decision anyway

886

:

because the alliance was more important

than the domestic terrorism threat.

887

:

Morgan: Yeah.

888

:

So

889

:

Cameron: for the sake of alliance,

which is really, really a mafia

890

:

protection rack, we increase the

terrorist threat in Australia.

891

:

You know, what sort of

decision making is that?

892

:

Like that's, you know, I have

no words for how evil I think

893

:

that sort of decision making is.

894

:

Trevor: The people behind this should

be shamed afterwards that they.

895

:

They're, they're still lauded, but

anyway, okay, next policy orca.

896

:

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

897

:

Cameron: Can I just talk

on the nuclear weapons?

898

:

Yeah.

899

:

Yeah.

900

:

So, so we, we don't have, but you remember

Penny Wong, our current foreign minister,

901

:

said we have an either confirmed nor deny

policy, um, as far as what the United

902

:

States military aircraft or ships have

when they come to Australian territory.

903

:

Right.

904

:

So via the forced posture agreement,

which was signed by the, uh, or started

905

:

with the Gillard government and signed in

he, the liberal government in:

906

:

So both parties are like this.

907

:

They're one and the same.

908

:

Um, you know, that gives the United States

the ability to occupy areas of Australian

909

:

soil where we have no control over that.

910

:

Um, including when they fly aircraft

in, um, that they may or may not have

911

:

military weapons, uh, nuclear weapons on

them, and we have no recourse or capacity

912

:

to check or prevent that from occurring.

913

:

Trevor: Mm-hmm.

914

:

Cameron: Now.

915

:

If you think, and, you know, real

time example of what's happened here.

916

:

So, um, the Nautilus Institute did

a report based on, um, you know, all

917

:

the information they could gather and

some of the bombing by B two bombers

918

:

that left the United States involved.

919

:

B two bombers flying over

Australian air space.

920

:

Those B two bombers being refueled

via US Air Force refueling tankers

921

:

that flew outta Cairns Airport, flying

to Yemen, Yemen dropping bombs on

922

:

Yemen, which is in violation of the

United, you know, the UN charter.

923

:

Um, and then flying back

through Australian airspace.

924

:

Trevor: Really, we, we refueled some

of the planes that we didn't do,

925

:

Cameron: we didn't refuel them, but

926

:

Trevor: on our s they do that

927

:

Cameron: assets on our, our shore did.

928

:

So we're complicit in a crime.

929

:

Trevor: Mm mm We're

930

:

Cameron: complicit that now

we switch targets to China.

931

:

Um, and, you know, the United

States obviously the only country

932

:

in the world that's actually

used to, uh, nuclear weapons.

933

:

If it gets that, you know, given

the sort of fanatical, um, you know,

934

:

exceptionalism, um, bent they have in the

United States, if the United States gets

935

:

into position where they see no other

option to try and rescue their empire, um,

936

:

you know, I don't think it's unforeseeable

that, um, they could use nuclear weapons.

937

:

Um, oh, good goodness.

938

:

I hope not.

939

:

But they could very well do that through

Australian facilities and airspace.

940

:

Um, because, you know, then

it's not coming from mainland.

941

:

The United States and the Chinese

have the capacity to respond in kind.

942

:

So RAF based amli, um, you know,

RAF based towns or some of our port

943

:

facilities, they could become targets.

944

:

Um.

945

:

In, you know, in exchange of missiles

and, and worst case, even nuclear

946

:

weapons if it got to that point.

947

:

So, I mean, we're talking about what,

you know, the not just life and death of

948

:

individuals life and death of countries

and potentially the whole planet.

949

:

Yeah.

950

:

All because we're unwilling to, um,

stand up for ourselves and say, we're an

951

:

independent sovereign country and we're

not gonna let you use our territory for

952

:

hosting your foreign military bases.

953

:

And you're certainly not

bringing nuclear weapons here.

954

:

Trevor: And up to this point,

uh, establishment has said,

955

:

well, the Americans are the

responsible good guys of the planet.

956

:

We've now reached the point that they're

irresponsible and they're not good guys.

957

:

It's clear to everybody.

958

:

It's, but this

959

:

Cameron: is, this is, this is good.

960

:

We're actually in a, a relatively

good spot here because like I've been

961

:

saying, and I'm not the only one, you

know, you, you're obviously saying too

962

:

Trevor, and that, but saying the same

thing about the United States for time

963

:

and you know, people just poo pooing it.

964

:

But now, and I think we should

thank Donald Trump for this.

965

:

Yes.

966

:

Now everyone can see.

967

:

The mask has been ripped off.

968

:

Everyone can see the nature, true nature

of the United States, um, unless they're,

969

:

you know, blinded and, and funded by

the United States in some way to help.

970

:

Further, further, they

971

:

Trevor: can Cameron, but they're

not, they're not, it's been

972

:

obvious for, for quite a while now.

973

:

And they're not, they're not backing off.

974

:

And even something, this is where

I find Gaza just so depressing,

975

:

like a modern day genocide.

976

:

It's clear to everybody that children,

women, obvious civilians are just

977

:

being slaughtered and mass and also

being picked off by snipers and w

978

:

we know it's happening and yet our

own government is complicit in it.

979

:

And I just, that such an

event could take place and.

980

:

And is being allowed to happen just

depresses me that yes, it's obvious,

981

:

but still nothing's happened.

982

:

How, how long will it take?

983

:

I worry.

984

:

So,

985

:

Cameron: yeah,

986

:

Trevor: I

987

:

Cameron: know.

988

:

It's, um, yeah, I agree.

989

:

I, I mean, I, sometimes I wake up and I

don't recognize, you know, we, we, you

990

:

know, how do we get to this point as

a country where, you know, everything

991

:

I believed as I was growing up as a

young, young Australian, and when I

992

:

joined the military, I thought we were

the good guys and stuff like that.

993

:

Um, you know, where, you know, it might

be a bit controversial, but the evidence,

994

:

um, of, you know, Nazis and neo-Nazis

and far right extremists running the

995

:

show in Ukraine, we support that.

996

:

We're supporting genocide in Gaza.

997

:

It's like, where did we

go wrong as a country?

998

:

Like I, I, I really struggle

to understand, um, you.

999

:

Trevor: I put a lot of

the blame on Murdoch.

:

00:49:09,750 --> 00:49:12,569

Have you got a Murdoch policy

in amongst all this stuff?

:

00:49:12,660 --> 00:49:14,310

I couldn't see one in my brief link.

:

00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:16,439

Cameron: Yes.

:

00:49:16,439 --> 00:49:19,890

Um, I don't think we've got a

specific one, but, um, yeah,

:

00:49:19,890 --> 00:49:21,720

that, I mean, you's you need one.

:

00:49:21,720 --> 00:49:24,930

Trevor: Russell won up at some

stage because I blame him for a

:

00:49:24,930 --> 00:49:28,200

lot of, uh, what's happening here

with his ability to manipulate.

:

00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:33,750

Even in this day where not many

people buy his papers, uh, he still

:

00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:38,970

has an influence on the system

that's, uh, way out of kilter.

:

00:49:39,029 --> 00:49:40,350

So, uh, okay.

:

00:49:40,350 --> 00:49:43,680

One of the other reasons for you

doing the Senate run was orcas.

:

00:49:43,950 --> 00:49:44,250

Yep.

:

00:49:44,399 --> 00:49:48,089

And, uh, what's the policy on

orcas for Australia's voice?

:

00:49:48,525 --> 00:49:52,965

Cameron: So the policy is to, um,

you know, basically scrap orcas.

:

00:49:53,145 --> 00:49:56,265

Um, so I mean it's, you know, we

haven't got much meat on the, we're a

:

00:49:56,265 --> 00:49:57,795

new party, so we're still developing

:

00:49:58,125 --> 00:49:58,245

Trevor: Yeah.

:

00:49:58,305 --> 00:50:00,555

Cameron: Um, policies, but

that, that's the heart of it.

:

00:50:00,675 --> 00:50:05,115

Um, and from, I mean, there's a

couple of different parts to orcas.

:

00:50:05,115 --> 00:50:09,315

The shiny part which grabs everyone's

attention is the, um, the submarines.

:

00:50:09,404 --> 00:50:13,395

And then the other part is the increased

access to US military forces so they

:

00:50:13,395 --> 00:50:16,005

can project force to argue it to China.

:

00:50:16,065 --> 00:50:18,615

So I sort of covered that before

when we were talking about the,

:

00:50:18,615 --> 00:50:22,545

um, you know, us, um, B two

bombers and, and stuff like that.

:

00:50:22,545 --> 00:50:29,475

But I, I, I forget all the, the

logic, strategic logic or illogic,

:

00:50:29,865 --> 00:50:31,695

you know, reasons why we have orus.

:

00:50:31,965 --> 00:50:35,775

Just from a risk business

project management perspective.

:

00:50:35,775 --> 00:50:36,375

It's a dud.

:

00:50:36,915 --> 00:50:37,065

Yeah.

:

00:50:37,095 --> 00:50:41,445

We know that the, uh, UK and

the United States does not have

:

00:50:41,535 --> 00:50:44,384

the industrial capacity to, um.

:

00:50:45,210 --> 00:50:51,000

Build these submarines, um, yet we're, you

know, $800 million down payment just a few

:

00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:56,370

months ago, um, that we've made, you know,

in what, in what environment would you

:

00:50:56,370 --> 00:51:02,129

continue on a project or a program like

that when you know that the people you've

:

00:51:02,129 --> 00:51:04,500

contracted to deliver it can't deliver it.

:

00:51:04,980 --> 00:51:09,000

So, because that, and I can't

see how that's gonna change.

:

00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,410

Like, you know, you know, you need, it's

gonna take years, if not decades to build

:

00:51:13,410 --> 00:51:15,419

the capacity because it's a workforce.

:

00:51:15,419 --> 00:51:19,230

Like increase your number of engineers

and sinus and technicians and all that

:

00:51:19,230 --> 00:51:22,919

to actually build these, that that's not

gonna happen next year or two years time.

:

00:51:22,919 --> 00:51:25,470

That's 5, 10, 15 year project to do that.

:

00:51:25,470 --> 00:51:27,359

So nothing's gonna change in that regard.

:

00:51:27,899 --> 00:51:32,220

Um, so I think it's gonna

all fall apart and, um, and

:

00:51:32,220 --> 00:51:34,185

collapse, um, sooner or later.

:

00:51:34,325 --> 00:51:34,745

Trevor: Mm-hmm.

:

00:51:36,255 --> 00:51:40,395

We've reached the point where even

the hawks, the people in the military

:

00:51:40,395 --> 00:51:47,685

and government who want large shiny

military objects and weapons recognize

:

00:51:47,715 --> 00:51:49,455

they're not gonna get them with this.

:

00:51:49,455 --> 00:51:53,595

So guys like Greg Sheridan and

commentators like that have now turned

:

00:51:53,595 --> 00:52:00,045

around and have questioned orca because,

um, they want weapons and they can

:

00:52:00,045 --> 00:52:03,675

just see that they're, they're just

not gonna arrive through the system.

:

00:52:04,005 --> 00:52:04,065

Cameron: Yeah.

:

00:52:04,395 --> 00:52:04,515

Trevor: Mm-hmm.

:

00:52:04,575 --> 00:52:05,055

Cameron: That's right.

:

00:52:05,055 --> 00:52:08,595

So, you know, but we just need to, I

mean, I think it's, it's pretty fragile.

:

00:52:08,655 --> 00:52:11,475

We just, it's gotta be some

pressure point we can push,

:

00:52:11,685 --> 00:52:13,125

which the whole thing will imply.

:

00:52:13,215 --> 00:52:16,575

So I guess that's, you know,

hopefully what we can do is help,

:

00:52:16,725 --> 00:52:20,475

you know, apply that pressure and

the whole thing will, will implode.

:

00:52:20,835 --> 00:52:23,445

Um, and the other thing that worries

me too is, is like, you know, in my

:

00:52:23,445 --> 00:52:27,675

profession as a soil scientist, we've

had a period where, you know, state

:

00:52:27,675 --> 00:52:31,515

governments in particular used to in

employ soil, sinus, and they've sort of.

:

00:52:32,025 --> 00:52:35,835

You know, in most states and territories,

you know, pulled back significantly.

:

00:52:35,835 --> 00:52:40,935

So we're at this point now in my soil

sinus, where our workforce is getting

:

00:52:40,935 --> 00:52:43,935

smaller and smaller, and a large

proportion of the workforce is sort

:

00:52:43,935 --> 00:52:45,285

of getting close to retirement age.

:

00:52:45,615 --> 00:52:47,955

So to rebuild, that's

gonna take 10 or 20 years.

:

00:52:48,285 --> 00:52:51,194

And I, you know, being in the army and

seeing how workforce development, how

:

00:52:51,194 --> 00:52:54,435

difficult it's to, you know, maintain

trades and that, that's a big project.

:

00:52:54,795 --> 00:52:58,545

But with orus, and this is just one,

one sort of, you know, specialization,

:

00:52:58,545 --> 00:53:02,535

one field, but you think with Orcus

to actually get the workforce,

:

00:53:02,535 --> 00:53:05,504

all those engineers, science

technicians, maintenance logistics,

:

00:53:05,504 --> 00:53:08,775

people that we could actually,

you know, maintain this capacity.

:

00:53:09,075 --> 00:53:14,025

It's gonna suck so much out of other

areas of the economy, um, that,

:

00:53:14,025 --> 00:53:17,025

you know, you wanna get a plumber

or an electrician, oh, good luck.

:

00:53:17,025 --> 00:53:20,085

They're all getting twice as much working

for the bloody, you know, submarine.

:

00:53:20,085 --> 00:53:20,174

Mm-hmm.

:

00:53:20,714 --> 00:53:22,154

Um, program.

:

00:53:22,245 --> 00:53:22,665

Um.

:

00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:27,610

You know, so it is gonna have

massive opportunity costs and flow

:

00:53:27,610 --> 00:53:31,390

on second, third order costs on

the entire economy, um, in our,

:

00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,670

you know, bells and shiny whistles.

:

00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:36,070

We gotta, we, we can, you know,

pat ourselves and we've got some

:

00:53:36,070 --> 00:53:39,010

nuclear submarines in 30 years

time or something like that.

:

00:53:39,010 --> 00:53:39,460

It's just

:

00:53:40,660 --> 00:53:45,130

Trevor: our Navy cannot

operate and man the measly few

:

00:53:45,130 --> 00:53:46,480

ships it's got at the moment.

:

00:53:46,570 --> 00:53:48,190

Cameron: Yeah, I think, I

think we've got one operational

:

00:53:48,190 --> 00:53:49,450

Collins class at the moment.

:

00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:50,050

Trevor: Yeah.

:

00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:55,720

And a, a friend of family, friend of

mine's been in the Navy for outta school.

:

00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:58,150

I think he's been in it

three years or something now.

:

00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:02,620

And the only time he's really been

on a ship was, um, was one of the old

:

00:54:02,620 --> 00:54:06,550

sailing vessels, like a replica of the

endeavor type thing on some sort of

:

00:54:06,550 --> 00:54:08,980

promotional crews up and down the coast.

:

00:54:08,980 --> 00:54:15,370

But, um, yeah, and the just finding

crew to operate these submarines

:

00:54:15,730 --> 00:54:19,365

would be enormously difficult

because who wants to do that?

:

00:54:20,415 --> 00:54:21,855

Not an easy job to fill.

:

00:54:21,855 --> 00:54:21,975

That's,

:

00:54:22,395 --> 00:54:24,615

Cameron: I mean, they get

way well paid submariners.

:

00:54:24,674 --> 00:54:27,734

Um, you know, they get their base

wage plus a, I can't remember.

:

00:54:28,305 --> 00:54:31,305

Um, but yeah, it's a fairly

significant, um, bonus.

:

00:54:31,305 --> 00:54:33,944

And I think then when they go

to sea, they get even paid even

:

00:54:33,944 --> 00:54:35,355

more so sea going allowance.

:

00:54:35,355 --> 00:54:38,415

So, um, we can't do that now.

:

00:54:38,475 --> 00:54:40,004

Um, and I don't, I think, you know,

:

00:54:42,524 --> 00:54:47,865

you know, I think we're, people aren't

really that keen to sign up to sort of.

:

00:54:48,285 --> 00:54:51,180

Go and fight wars, which, yeah.

:

00:54:51,825 --> 00:54:52,185

Yeah.

:

00:54:52,425 --> 00:54:55,545

So I think recruitment's gonna be

a massive issue for, um, for the

:

00:54:55,545 --> 00:54:58,875

Australian Defense Force, not just

through the Navy, but, but going forward.

:

00:54:58,875 --> 00:55:01,935

And I think that a lot of it comes

back to, you know, you know, we've,

:

00:55:02,205 --> 00:55:05,265

we've lost the pot a bit, is to, what's

the purpose of the defense force?

:

00:55:05,265 --> 00:55:07,815

Like to me, I think the actual

having it, I think we need a

:

00:55:07,815 --> 00:55:09,495

defense force in a lot of ways.

:

00:55:09,495 --> 00:55:12,675

I think it's a noble profession when you

are there defending your country, but

:

00:55:12,675 --> 00:55:17,475

when we do what we do, which is not defend

our country, but, you know, paying a

:

00:55:17,475 --> 00:55:21,615

down payment on an alliance just in case

they might come and help us one day if we

:

00:55:21,615 --> 00:55:23,745

need it, um, but are unlikely to do so.

:

00:55:23,745 --> 00:55:25,875

Like, it's not, not a

particularly attractive deal.

:

00:55:26,055 --> 00:55:26,565

Um, yeah.

:

00:55:28,005 --> 00:55:28,275

Trevor: Yeah.

:

00:55:28,695 --> 00:55:29,175

Okay.

:

00:55:29,175 --> 00:55:32,985

Also in your Twitter, as you number

three and four, we've kind of covered

:

00:55:32,985 --> 00:55:38,445

these really, uh, middle East policies

and um, and then the American Imperial

:

00:55:38,445 --> 00:55:41,955

Systems imploding and our leaders are

failing to deal with this new reality.

:

00:55:41,955 --> 00:55:43,695

So, um.

:

00:55:44,565 --> 00:55:46,484

Was your sort of reasons

for getting involved?

:

00:55:46,484 --> 00:55:51,015

Were there any specific, um, policy,

well, policies of Australia, voice

:

00:55:51,015 --> 00:55:55,455

towards the Middle East and I guess as

the recognition of Palestine would be one.

:

00:55:56,325 --> 00:55:56,955

Cameron: Yeah, that's right.

:

00:55:56,984 --> 00:56:02,685

Um, yeah, and we're unequivocal it's

genocide and, um, and, um, fed, uh,

:

00:56:02,685 --> 00:56:06,555

Senator Payment and Senator Thorpe

have got, um, I can't remember the

:

00:56:06,555 --> 00:56:09,765

exact title of the bill, but there's

a three part bill there, which is, you

:

00:56:09,765 --> 00:56:13,035

know, reducing the risk of Australia

being complicit in, in genocide.

:

00:56:13,035 --> 00:56:17,654

So that's directly related to,

uh, well in, um, um, to what's

:

00:56:17,654 --> 00:56:19,694

happening in the, in the Middle East.

:

00:56:20,475 --> 00:56:23,565

Um, yeah, and I guess the

major, you know, obviously cost

:

00:56:23,565 --> 00:56:28,125

of living is a, um, is a, uh.

:

00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,070

Theme in the election, and, you know,

we hear it all the time in the, in

:

00:56:32,070 --> 00:56:33,810

the media and, and stuff like that.

:

00:56:34,170 --> 00:56:37,920

Um, so we have, I guess one of the

key policies is lifting the minimum,

:

00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:42,720

uh, threshold, tax threshold, uh,

up to the minimum wage based on the

:

00:56:42,780 --> 00:56:46,980

sort of premise that, um, the minimum

wage is what you need to survive.

:

00:56:47,010 --> 00:56:51,870

So we shouldn't be taxing you, um,

on that amount because obviously

:

00:56:51,870 --> 00:56:55,530

that puts you on the back foot and

I think the costings come out at, at

:

00:56:55,530 --> 00:56:57,150

less than what the cost of ORCA is.

:

00:56:57,150 --> 00:57:00,690

So, um, you know, we can, we

can keep people outta poverty

:

00:57:00,690 --> 00:57:01,830

or we can buy submarines,

:

00:57:02,220 --> 00:57:05,340

Trevor: cancel the submarines,

and we can lift the threshold.

:

00:57:05,340 --> 00:57:06,270

Yeah, yeah,

:

00:57:06,270 --> 00:57:06,360

Cameron: yeah.

:

00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:12,840

And, and the other also relates

that is for, um, uh, uh.

:

00:57:13,950 --> 00:57:19,140

Housing small businesses to always lift

the threshold as well, so that businesses

:

00:57:19,140 --> 00:57:22,890

with a turnover of less than $5 million,

small businesses with a turnover of

:

00:57:22,890 --> 00:57:24,810

less than $5 million don't pay tax.

:

00:57:25,049 --> 00:57:29,250

And also try to pay, um, get the, uh,

the corporates, the big corporates

:

00:57:29,250 --> 00:57:32,250

who send to make a monster in

Australia don't pay a lot of tax.

:

00:57:32,669 --> 00:57:32,819

Yep.

:

00:57:32,819 --> 00:57:34,529

Get them to start paying their way.

:

00:57:34,980 --> 00:57:35,399

Trevor: Yep.

:

00:57:35,399 --> 00:57:37,169

How, anyway,

:

00:57:38,279 --> 00:57:42,540

Cameron: how well, um, yeah, that,

that's the, the policy position.

:

00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:46,890

I'm not an economics expert, so I don't

think I'll, I'll delve into how I do

:

00:57:46,890 --> 00:57:50,879

that, but I guess, um, one, one thing a

differed between the greens and the, um,

:

00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:55,890

Australia's first is that, um, uh, from,

you know, my understanding the Greens

:

00:57:55,890 --> 00:57:59,819

like to sort of do things on their own and

sort of take credit things, whereas we're

:

00:57:59,819 --> 00:58:04,049

more than willing to be collaborate with

other, any other political party who, you

:

00:58:04,049 --> 00:58:09,509

know, support policies that we support,

um, to help further those things along.

:

00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:11,339

And I guess, um, you know.

:

00:58:12,134 --> 00:58:16,035

Uh, Plato, I think get a quote,

something about the, the oldest and

:

00:58:16,035 --> 00:58:20,565

most fatal ailment for any republic or

democracy in our case is inequality.

:

00:58:20,685 --> 00:58:20,714

Mm.

:

00:58:20,774 --> 00:58:24,765

Um, and we are becoming more

and more unequal as a society.

:

00:58:24,944 --> 00:58:28,815

Um, so, you know, and that

concentration of wealth is part of

:

00:58:28,815 --> 00:58:31,335

the pro reason why we're heading

the sort of way we're heading.

:

00:58:31,424 --> 00:58:35,549

Um, obviously we're talking

serious, um, disruption to the,

:

00:58:35,555 --> 00:58:36,794

the current power structure.

:

00:58:36,794 --> 00:58:39,884

But if we don't fix that, you know, we're,

we're heading down this, you know, sort of

:

00:58:39,884 --> 00:58:44,205

path where the United States is heading,

we have a extremely small percentage of

:

00:58:44,205 --> 00:58:48,765

population, extremely wealthy, and a large

percentage to, you know, I think in the

:

00:58:48,765 --> 00:58:52,575

us you know, the average sort of median

wage really hasn't improved for decades.

:

00:58:52,575 --> 00:58:54,285

Like, that's where we'll end up heading.

:

00:58:54,370 --> 00:58:54,589

Mm.

:

00:58:54,734 --> 00:58:57,194

Um, and that's not good for Australians.

:

00:58:57,194 --> 00:58:58,605

It's not good for our democracy.

:

00:58:59,085 --> 00:58:59,595

Um.

:

00:59:00,615 --> 00:59:01,725

And so we need to fix that.

:

00:59:01,725 --> 00:59:05,745

So, you know, hopefully we, Australia's

voice can play a role in sort of

:

00:59:05,835 --> 00:59:10,425

addressing those sort of fairly

fundamental, um, issues that we face.

:

00:59:10,545 --> 00:59:10,755

Trevor: Yep.

:

00:59:10,785 --> 00:59:14,625

I'm just looking at, uh, the website now

and I'm just gonna rattle through some

:

00:59:14,625 --> 00:59:20,385

of the policies and, um, uh, to give

people an idea, stop me if you want to

:

00:59:20,385 --> 00:59:27,015

talk about any in particular, but, um, so

housing, um, what they're saying is that,

:

00:59:27,075 --> 00:59:34,725

um, limit negative gearing and reduce the

CGT discount from 50% to 25%, lowering

:

00:59:34,725 --> 00:59:41,325

it by 5% each year, so a phased reduction

in the capital gains tax discount.

:

00:59:41,445 --> 00:59:44,265

So that's one of the policies.

:

00:59:44,655 --> 00:59:48,645

Um, yeah, bank, bank reform, four

banks have been gouging customers.

:

00:59:48,705 --> 00:59:50,805

We will push for a

public bank of Australia.

:

00:59:51,375 --> 00:59:52,005

So,

:

00:59:52,365 --> 00:59:53,865

Cameron: yeah, I think that's, um.

:

00:59:54,540 --> 00:59:58,290

Uh, I think that's critical, but

you know, I think working in with

:

00:59:58,290 --> 01:00:02,580

the, um, with the, the post office

as well, keep making, uh, viable for

:

01:00:02,580 --> 01:00:07,230

regional post post office, lot of who

struggling, seeing many regional areas,

:

01:00:07,230 --> 01:00:10,590

losing banks, um, around the country.

:

01:00:11,009 --> 01:00:11,130

Yeah.

:

01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:11,310

Um.

:

01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:16,170

And, you know, access to banking

services, obviously a prerequisite

:

01:00:16,170 --> 01:00:18,750

for people's daily lives, for

small business, et cetera.

:

01:00:18,750 --> 01:00:24,030

So I think the, I mean, we saw, you know,

was it in the, uh, the Great Depression

:

01:00:24,030 --> 01:00:27,480

where after the Great Depression,

they had the divestiture of investment

:

01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,000

banking and um, and everyday banking.

:

01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:30,090

Yes.

:

01:00:30,180 --> 01:00:30,870

What was the class?

:

01:00:30,885 --> 01:00:31,987

Was it class to, was that the Yes.

:

01:00:33,030 --> 01:00:33,570

Yeah, yeah.

:

01:00:34,050 --> 01:00:36,630

Um, you know, and they did

that for a reason, I guess

:

01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:37,980

that's sort of part of this.

:

01:00:37,980 --> 01:00:41,640

If we could have a bank, a public bank,

which was focused on providing, you know,

:

01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:45,360

everyday banking services for average

people, small businesses, and that,

:

01:00:45,455 --> 01:00:49,860

that were forced more competition on

the banks, um, whilst also ensuring that

:

01:00:49,860 --> 01:00:52,980

Australians had access to the banking

services that, you know, we all need.

:

01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:53,730

Trevor: Yeah.

:

01:00:54,030 --> 01:00:54,300

Yep.

:

01:00:54,330 --> 01:00:54,990

That's a good one.

:

01:00:55,050 --> 01:01:01,170

Um, supermarket divestiture, Coles and

Woolworths, um, break up the duopoly.

:

01:01:01,650 --> 01:01:03,120

So, yeah, I think

:

01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:04,710

Cameron: there, there's

a bit of nuance to that.

:

01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,251

Uh, I can't talk to it in any

detail, but it's, um, you know.

:

01:01:09,390 --> 01:01:14,580

Uh, and I think I, sorry, was it one

of the institutes did a study in like

:

01:01:14,580 --> 01:01:20,310

in their, um, in the specials and like,

like, you know, you line them up and the

:

01:01:20,310 --> 01:01:22,259

one week that Coles has a special Yes.

:

01:01:22,290 --> 01:01:24,270

Wool and then vice versa.

:

01:01:24,569 --> 01:01:24,690

Yeah.

:

01:01:24,694 --> 01:01:29,700

So I think it's more about, um,

you know, if those practices don't

:

01:01:29,700 --> 01:01:33,960

stop, if they don't do the right

thing, then take that sort of action.

:

01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:38,190

So, you know, obviously, you know,

cost of living food is, um, is

:

01:01:38,190 --> 01:01:41,645

the core of being able to, um Yep.

:

01:01:41,649 --> 01:01:43,170

You know, look after people.

:

01:01:43,170 --> 01:01:44,310

So that's what that's about.

:

01:01:44,609 --> 01:01:44,879

Trevor: Yep.

:

01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,600

Uh, a republic, um, in favor of that.

:

01:01:49,049 --> 01:01:50,879

Uh, me too in the gen Me, sorry.

:

01:01:51,390 --> 01:01:51,660

Me too.

:

01:01:52,170 --> 01:01:52,440

Yep.

:

01:01:52,859 --> 01:01:55,951

Uh, in the general side, of course

we've talked about, uh, yeah.

:

01:01:55,955 --> 01:02:01,259

And the resource ripoff, um, I gather

that is to get more resource revenue

:

01:02:01,259 --> 01:02:03,779

and not give away gas and other things.

:

01:02:03,870 --> 01:02:04,200

Cameron: Correct?

:

01:02:04,319 --> 01:02:04,500

Yes.

:

01:02:04,500 --> 01:02:04,770

Trevor: Yep.

:

01:02:04,830 --> 01:02:05,040

Cameron: Yeah.

:

01:02:06,585 --> 01:02:09,255

We have, when you look at other

countries such as Norway and that

:

01:02:09,345 --> 01:02:15,495

who manage to, you know, use their

resources to look after their society.

:

01:02:15,495 --> 01:02:19,305

Whereas we, we do it to look

after our corporates who, you

:

01:02:19,305 --> 01:02:20,715

know, feed the political system.

:

01:02:20,715 --> 01:02:24,885

So, you know, there's no reason why

Australia should be poor in any way,

:

01:02:24,885 --> 01:02:28,725

shape or form because we are just so

well endowed with natural resources.

:

01:02:28,755 --> 01:02:30,825

Um, other than the way we

manage how we, how we, you

:

01:02:31,060 --> 01:02:32,475

know, look after and sell those.

:

01:02:33,585 --> 01:02:34,095

Trevor: Yes.

:

01:02:34,455 --> 01:02:34,725

Yep.

:

01:02:35,325 --> 01:02:37,725

Um, there's a bunch of other ones there.

:

01:02:38,355 --> 01:02:44,505

Um, fixed student hex debt, national

poverty, measure raise, job seeker,

:

01:02:44,505 --> 01:02:48,525

raise the remote area allowance,

real climate action, bunch of others.

:

01:02:48,525 --> 01:02:51,405

I'll let people sort of, um, go

through those at their leisure if

:

01:02:51,405 --> 01:02:54,435

they want to, unless there are any

others that you wanted to highlight

:

01:02:54,435 --> 01:02:55,635

in particular that you're keen on.

:

01:02:56,580 --> 01:02:57,839

Cameron: Um, no.

:

01:02:57,839 --> 01:03:01,890

Well, I, and I guess just, uh, as an

example of like, this is a new party

:

01:03:01,890 --> 01:03:04,740

and we're still developing policies

and I mean this, we we're running the

:

01:03:04,740 --> 01:03:07,890

Senate, so the Senate's primarily about

holding the government to account.

:

01:03:08,009 --> 01:03:12,120

Um, and you know, that's what I like to

do is hold the government to account.

:

01:03:12,149 --> 01:03:16,259

'cause obviously we won't be in power,

but, um, you know, hopefully we'll

:

01:03:16,350 --> 01:03:20,339

get a couple of candidates in and, uh,

come senators and, and ask the hard

:

01:03:20,339 --> 01:03:25,109

questions and expose the, you know, the

untoward things that, that we're doing.

:

01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:27,930

Um, and now I've lost my train of thought.

:

01:03:27,930 --> 01:03:28,830

Where was I heading with that?

:

01:03:28,919 --> 01:03:29,399

Um,

:

01:03:31,649 --> 01:03:32,100

what was I, I dunno

:

01:03:35,609 --> 01:03:38,430

Trevor: whether there any other

policies or was what my started off

:

01:03:38,430 --> 01:03:39,600

with that you wanted to particularly

:

01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:41,879

Cameron: highlight any other policies?

:

01:03:41,970 --> 01:03:42,509

Um.

:

01:03:43,845 --> 01:03:46,755

And, you know, I guess when it comes

to cost of living, and one of the

:

01:03:46,755 --> 01:03:51,435

things I think we, we need to, it's

not in the national conversation, but

:

01:03:51,495 --> 01:03:57,045

I think needs to be, is I believe that

the cost of living isn't a crisis.

:

01:03:57,105 --> 01:03:58,245

It's a chronic condition.

:

01:03:58,245 --> 01:03:58,965

Mm-hmm.

:

01:03:59,055 --> 01:04:01,605

And the reason I believe it's a chronic

condition, and I mean, there's lots of

:

01:04:01,605 --> 01:04:04,875

things we can do, and part of that is

like raising the tax threshold and making

:

01:04:04,875 --> 01:04:07,995

sure that corpus are paying the tax

that they should be paying, et cetera.

:

01:04:07,995 --> 01:04:11,865

So there's lots of things that we can do

to assist, but fundamentally we're not

:

01:04:11,865 --> 01:04:15,135

gonna solve it unless we understand that.

:

01:04:15,345 --> 01:04:22,065

Um, there's a, there's a, uh, a professor

in the UK to follow who, um, has this,

:

01:04:22,305 --> 01:04:30,225

um, uh, energy, cost of energy, um,

program where he looks at over time.

:

01:04:30,855 --> 01:04:34,035

The how much energy we're getting

out of our energy sources is actually

:

01:04:34,035 --> 01:04:35,775

useful to the economy is declining.

:

01:04:36,045 --> 01:04:36,135

Mm-hmm.

:

01:04:36,375 --> 01:04:39,945

So for example, if you look at Saudi

Arabia, uh, or even you know, Texas

:

01:04:39,945 --> 01:04:44,025

or that back in the:

whenever it was, um, they dug a hole and

:

01:04:44,055 --> 01:04:45,675

oil comes spurting out of the ground.

:

01:04:45,765 --> 01:04:49,725

It takes no energy to actually,

you know, extract that energy,

:

01:04:49,755 --> 01:04:52,485

virtually no energy, extract that

energy, and then put it to good use.

:

01:04:52,485 --> 01:04:55,995

Whereas now you look at the size of

the infrastructure that we need to

:

01:04:55,995 --> 01:04:58,725

be able to extract energy, whether

it's, you know, coal, natural gas, or

:

01:04:58,725 --> 01:05:04,035

oil, um, um, you know, it's massive

investment, massive in infrastructure.

:

01:05:04,065 --> 01:05:08,415

So we're actually getting less energy out

of, and, and it's the same for renewables.

:

01:05:08,775 --> 01:05:12,255

They have relatively less energy

than you get, um, compared

:

01:05:12,255 --> 01:05:13,665

to what we had in times past.

:

01:05:14,025 --> 01:05:18,975

So unless we come to terms with these

sort of issues, we're always gonna have a.

:

01:05:20,459 --> 01:05:24,060

Cost of living is a chronic

condition, but we don't even

:

01:05:24,060 --> 01:05:25,259

talk about this sort of stuff.

:

01:05:25,259 --> 01:05:27,209

Like these are core issues,

is the future of, you know,

:

01:05:27,209 --> 01:05:29,669

our society and civilization.

:

01:05:30,029 --> 01:05:30,180

Yeah.

:

01:05:30,209 --> 01:05:34,229

But you, we, we, you know, fluff around,

you know, liberal and Labor party

:

01:05:34,319 --> 01:05:37,859

talking about, you know, just having

pot shots at each other, but quite

:

01:05:37,859 --> 01:05:39,600

happy to keep the existing system as is.

:

01:05:39,629 --> 01:05:41,189

'cause that's where they get

their power from and they're

:

01:05:41,189 --> 01:05:42,149

happy with the status quo.

:

01:05:42,330 --> 01:05:42,959

Mm-hmm.

:

01:05:42,990 --> 01:05:43,169

Trevor: But

:

01:05:43,169 --> 01:05:44,819

Cameron: these things, you

know, we can't avoid them.

:

01:05:44,850 --> 01:05:48,540

So it's better to understand them and then

work out how do we actually address them.

:

01:05:48,540 --> 01:05:52,709

And I think that's what the minor parties

can do, is sort of raise these questions,

:

01:05:52,709 --> 01:05:58,470

raise these issues, um, and sort of, you

know, influence, um, policy and decisions.

:

01:05:58,529 --> 01:06:00,209

Um, and I, I believe that can happen.

:

01:06:00,214 --> 01:06:03,089

You know, you hear

regularly of little, um.

:

01:06:03,465 --> 01:06:06,495

Things where minor parties have been

able to get the major parties to do

:

01:06:06,495 --> 01:06:08,175

something or make change decisions.

:

01:06:08,175 --> 01:06:09,465

So, um,

:

01:06:09,555 --> 01:06:09,645

Trevor: mm-hmm.

:

01:06:09,645 --> 01:06:10,845

Was that Steve Kein?

:

01:06:10,845 --> 01:06:12,884

Was that the Eco economist, you think?

:

01:06:12,884 --> 01:06:13,005

Steve?

:

01:06:13,009 --> 01:06:13,291

No, not Steve Keen.

:

01:06:13,515 --> 01:06:14,384

Um, someone else,

:

01:06:14,565 --> 01:06:15,615

Cameron: um, surplus, sorry.

:

01:06:15,615 --> 01:06:18,404

It's called surplus, um, energy Economics.

:

01:06:18,404 --> 01:06:18,884

And it's Dr.

:

01:06:18,884 --> 01:06:20,715

Tim Morgan is the, is the guy.

:

01:06:20,715 --> 01:06:23,730

But I mean, there's, there's been a lot

of literature on, you know, energy return

:

01:06:23,730 --> 01:06:26,085

on investment and similar, similar topics.

:

01:06:26,085 --> 01:06:27,435

I mean, it's, it comes down to physics.

:

01:06:27,435 --> 01:06:30,765

It's not about whether you're

left or right, pol politically,

:

01:06:30,884 --> 01:06:31,875

it comes back to physics.

:

01:06:32,355 --> 01:06:35,775

Um, and I'm pretty sure that

politics has no influence on physics.

:

01:06:36,195 --> 01:06:37,904

Um, so we have to deal with that reality.

:

01:06:38,205 --> 01:06:38,355

Trevor: Yeah.

:

01:06:38,895 --> 01:06:44,265

Do you know, it's really hard

to, to explain economics,

:

01:06:44,265 --> 01:06:47,415

finance sort of issues to people.

:

01:06:47,805 --> 01:06:52,845

So even something like, um, you

know, the cost of nuclear energy.

:

01:06:53,700 --> 01:06:57,540

Like you could walk into any pub in

Australia, and if you wanted to start

:

01:06:57,540 --> 01:07:01,350

talking about that half the bloody pub,

well, depending on the demographic,

:

01:07:01,350 --> 01:07:02,790

it's probably old guys in a pub.

:

01:07:03,029 --> 01:07:10,920

The majority have got no idea of the, of

the high cost of generating, uh, nuclear

:

01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:15,240

power in Australia compared to renewables.

:

01:07:15,330 --> 01:07:19,200

It's, it's just bleedingly

obvious and well documented.

:

01:07:19,770 --> 01:07:24,299

Um, but you can't even get

that concept across to people.

:

01:07:24,299 --> 01:07:29,310

So when you're trying to explain

anything with a bit of nuance to it,

:

01:07:29,370 --> 01:07:34,890

um, like, uh, Woodside and other groups

are totally ripping us off in terms

:

01:07:34,890 --> 01:07:38,759

of the, the royalties and revenue

that we are collecting compared to say

:

01:07:38,759 --> 01:07:40,410

what Norway's been able to achieve.

:

01:07:40,980 --> 01:07:45,450

It's really difficult to,

to convince people of some

:

01:07:45,450 --> 01:07:46,920

of the most simple concepts.

:

01:07:47,250 --> 01:07:51,270

When you've got, when you've got

someone like the Murdoch Empire

:

01:07:51,299 --> 01:07:55,919

actively working against you at

every stage, uh, it's just a blight.

:

01:07:56,310 --> 01:08:00,870

It's just a blight on our system

that we can't have proper discussions

:

01:08:00,870 --> 01:08:06,419

about policy, where we talk about

the nuance and, and the conflicting

:

01:08:06,419 --> 01:08:08,879

ideas and concepts and wrap it all up.

:

01:08:09,930 --> 01:08:13,439

It's, it's, you can't do it

in our current environment.

:

01:08:13,529 --> 01:08:13,980

Right.

:

01:08:13,980 --> 01:08:14,250

Um,

:

01:08:14,700 --> 01:08:17,760

Cameron: and I mean, I mean, I'm a, a

market, this political game, you know,

:

01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:19,080

I don't really know what I'm doing.

:

01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:21,840

I'm just giving the best

shot that I can, but like I.

:

01:08:22,575 --> 01:08:27,104

Every issue we face has been developed

over years or decades to get to

:

01:08:27,104 --> 01:08:28,335

the point where it's an issue.

:

01:08:28,335 --> 01:08:29,145

Mm-hmm.

:

01:08:29,444 --> 01:08:34,215

We can't fix it with a 32nd, you

know, spray on, on the media or, you

:

01:08:34,215 --> 01:08:35,865

know, a slogan or something like that.

:

01:08:36,015 --> 01:08:40,545

Um, and unless we're willing to, you know,

be able to create that space where you

:

01:08:40,575 --> 01:08:45,645

can actually debate, think in depth, and,

and, um, you know, we're in big trouble.

:

01:08:45,944 --> 01:08:46,125

Yeah.

:

01:08:46,125 --> 01:08:50,354

So I'm trying like, you know,

I'm hopefully in, you know,

:

01:08:50,354 --> 01:08:51,465

how I'm approaching this.

:

01:08:51,465 --> 01:08:57,135

I'm trying to do that, you know, logical,

methodical, unemotional, um, manner.

:

01:08:57,165 --> 01:09:00,854

But, you know, we've got real deep

issues that require real deep thinking.

:

01:09:01,335 --> 01:09:07,725

Um, you know, some creative thinking, some

hard work, and, you know, you know, three

:

01:09:07,725 --> 01:09:09,765

years, what problems can we actually fix?

:

01:09:09,975 --> 01:09:12,315

You know, are we gonna fix a

housing issue in three years?

:

01:09:12,315 --> 01:09:12,404

Mm-hmm.

:

01:09:12,825 --> 01:09:13,184

No.

:

01:09:13,575 --> 01:09:14,109

You know, are we gonna.

:

01:09:15,314 --> 01:09:18,404

You know, obviously there, there'll be

progress and things along the way, but you

:

01:09:18,404 --> 01:09:20,835

know, we, you know, all these problems.

:

01:09:20,835 --> 01:09:24,765

If they've taken 20 or 30 years to become

an issue, well they're gonna take 10,

:

01:09:24,765 --> 01:09:26,625

20, 30 years for us to resolve 'em.

:

01:09:26,654 --> 01:09:30,375

But our political system is

just not well set up to, um,

:

01:09:30,559 --> 01:09:31,180

Trevor: and to

:

01:09:31,180 --> 01:09:31,540

Cameron: address that.

:

01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,965

Trevor: And our, our discussion

systems are not set up.

:

01:09:35,055 --> 01:09:42,165

We don't, we don't have systems that

allow in depth thought and context

:

01:09:42,165 --> 01:09:48,015

and nuance and the history of issues,

the history of our property debacle.

:

01:09:48,075 --> 01:09:52,604

Going back to Howard with the capital

gains tax exemption, you know, the

:

01:09:52,604 --> 01:09:59,865

history of, um, the Middle East sort

of issues there, like, um, the Youngs

:

01:09:59,865 --> 01:10:03,765

are wanting to start a war with Iran

and you really have to go back to the

:

01:10:03,765 --> 01:10:06,285

overthrow of Mossek and directly Yeah.

:

01:10:06,285 --> 01:10:09,885

Term at Roosevelt and the meddling

that we've done in that country that's

:

01:10:09,885 --> 01:10:12,255

got us to this position and even.

:

01:10:13,710 --> 01:10:18,000

Something as basic as we had a deal,

they had a deal with Iran about nuclear

:

01:10:18,450 --> 01:10:21,600

disarmament and, and Trump canned it.

:

01:10:22,020 --> 01:10:24,510

And now he is wanting to resurrect a deal.

:

01:10:24,750 --> 01:10:28,350

But do any of these reports ever

say, oh, by the way, there used

:

01:10:28,350 --> 01:10:30,300

to be a deal and Trump canned it?

:

01:10:30,570 --> 01:10:31,980

They don't ever give

:

01:10:31,980 --> 01:10:32,220

Cameron: that

:

01:10:32,225 --> 01:10:32,535

Trevor: nuance.

:

01:10:32,910 --> 01:10:36,630

Cameron: But this is one thing that

does give me a bit of hope is that the

:

01:10:36,630 --> 01:10:40,260

rest of the world, multipolar world,

:

01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:40,800

Trevor: yeah.

:

01:10:41,070 --> 01:10:45,150

Cameron: Based on old cultures, old

civilizations, they're not like this.

:

01:10:45,540 --> 01:10:46,050

Trevor: Yes.

:

01:10:46,140 --> 01:10:49,050

Cameron: And I, I really think that

they're, you know, the Russia, China,

:

01:10:49,050 --> 01:10:55,170

India, Brazil, um, you know, Indonesia,

Vietnam, all, you know, very old cultures.

:

01:10:55,470 --> 01:10:55,770

Trevor: Mm.

:

01:10:55,860 --> 01:10:58,290

Cameron: And whether, you know

Johnny come lately, the Westerners

:

01:10:58,290 --> 01:11:01,710

and you know, like a teenager,

you know, buck full of, you know.

:

01:11:02,370 --> 01:11:04,259

You know, things, they're invincible.

:

01:11:04,469 --> 01:11:07,230

Um, I think they're managing,

they're managing this.

:

01:11:07,230 --> 01:11:12,269

They're absorbing, like, you know, because

if half the, um, provocations that the

:

01:11:12,269 --> 01:11:15,540

US is doing against, you know, were

reversed, like the US would be dropping

:

01:11:15,540 --> 01:11:17,070

bombs, missiles left, right, and center.

:

01:11:17,490 --> 01:11:17,580

Mm-hmm.

:

01:11:17,580 --> 01:11:18,719

They're absorbing a lot.

:

01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:20,670

And I think, 'cause you

know, they're old cultures.

:

01:11:20,700 --> 01:11:22,230

They've seen all this,

you know, come and go.

:

01:11:22,230 --> 01:11:25,290

How many times has Chinese

empire expanded, contracted,

:

01:11:25,290 --> 01:11:26,190

expanded, contracted?

:

01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:28,950

You know, they've got the maturity

to understand how the world works.

:

01:11:29,155 --> 01:11:29,575

Mm-hmm.

:

01:11:29,575 --> 01:11:34,230

Um, and I think they're, they're

managing, um, managing the client.

:

01:11:34,230 --> 01:11:40,469

I think by doing that, you know, sooner

or later we, in the, you know, in those

:

01:11:40,469 --> 01:11:45,360

countries sort of western aligned and

allied to the us we might just get the

:

01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:46,920

hint that we need to change our way.

:

01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:52,080

So I'm quietly confident that, um,

you know, they're actually helping us.

:

01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:55,500

We just need to open our eyes and

see that, you know, it is time to

:

01:11:55,500 --> 01:11:56,549

do things a little bit differently.

:

01:11:56,549 --> 01:11:56,610

I.

:

01:11:57,375 --> 01:12:01,125

Trevor: Cameron, that is a positive note

to end on if you have an end on that one.

:

01:12:01,420 --> 01:12:03,070

Cameron: Yeah, that sounds good with me.

:

01:12:03,070 --> 01:12:03,349

Yeah.

:

01:12:03,945 --> 01:12:06,465

Trevor: Alright, well people can

look up the website, see what

:

01:12:06,465 --> 01:12:08,205

Australia's voice is on about.

:

01:12:08,295 --> 01:12:12,045

Um, good luck with your vote and

good luck with, uh, with everything.

:

01:12:12,045 --> 01:12:15,224

Cameron, you're welcome to come on

board, uh, the podcast and talk about

:

01:12:15,224 --> 01:12:19,995

stuff and we can just agree with each

other again, as we tend to do one day.

:

01:12:19,995 --> 01:12:21,344

We'll find something to disagree on.

:

01:12:21,344 --> 01:12:24,195

But, um, but in the meantime,

uh, thanks for coming on.

:

01:12:24,195 --> 01:12:27,045

Good luck with what you're

doing and having a go.

:

01:12:27,045 --> 01:12:29,474

So, um, yeah, good luck

with how it all pans out.

:

01:12:30,045 --> 01:12:30,405

Cameron: No worries.

:

01:12:30,405 --> 01:12:31,215

Thanks very much Trevor.

:

01:12:31,215 --> 01:12:31,875

Thanks for the chat.

:

01:12:32,205 --> 01:12:32,505

Trevor: Okay.

:

01:12:32,745 --> 01:12:35,505

Alright, we'll be back next

week with a panel discussion

:

01:12:35,505 --> 01:12:37,035

with Joe and myself and Scott.

:

01:12:37,035 --> 01:12:39,195

We'll talk to you then and bye for now.

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