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Episode 452 - Ukraine Should Give In

In this episode, Trevor (the Iron Fist), Scott (the Velvet Glove) and Joe (the Tech Guy) analyze recent global events and political decisions. Topics include the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Russia’s war with Ukraine, North Korean involvement in Ukraine, and the potential consequences of American internal politics on global stability, particularly under a Trump administration. They also discuss Australia's submarine deal with the US, becoming increasingly skeptical of its execution. Amid heavy debates, the hosts navigate through differing opinions, speculating about the future geopolitical landscape.

00:00 Introduction and Greetings

01:07 Health Updates and Casual Banter

01:50 Discussion on Gaza and Lebanon

02:22 Trump's Picks and Policies

04:04 Economic Implications of Trump's Policies

08:10 Christian Nationalism and Cultural Marxism

13:56 Ukraine-Russia Conflict Debate

34:08 Debating the Value of Land vs. People

35:00 Misinformation and Miscalculations in the Ukraine Conflict

38:21 NATO and the Geopolitical Chessboard

39:20 Hypocrisy in International Relations

46:20 North Korean Involvement in the Ukraine War?

55:44 Gaza Conflict and Media Coverage

01:04:15 Australia's Submarine Deal Controversy

01:08:15 Closing Remarks and Future Discussions

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Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcript
Morgan:

We need to talk about ideas, good ones and bad ones.

Morgan:

We need to learn stuff about the world.

Morgan:

We need an honest, intelligent, thought provoking and entertaining

Morgan:

review of what the hell happened on this planet in the last seven days.

Morgan:

We need to sit back and listen to the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

Trevor:

Hello and welcome back dear listener of the Iron

Trevor:

Fist and the Velvet Glove.

Trevor:

I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist.

Trevor:

Just joining in the last few minutes and tapping furiously at his

Trevor:

keyboard is Scott the Velvet Glove.

Trevor:

How are you Scott?

Trevor:

Hopefully I can hear you.

Scott:

Yeah, I can hear you, um, um, can you hear me?

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

Yeah, that's good.

Scott:

Yeah, I'm okay.

Scott:

Just running a little late.

Trevor:

Very good.

Trevor:

Yeah, I hear both.

Trevor:

Toting up the dollars for the, uh, Catholic primary schools and making

Trevor:

sure they get every cent of government largesse that they can get their hands on.

Trevor:

Exactly.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

And, uh, Well don't ask Joe the Tech Guy how he is, because Joe has a number of

Trevor:

health issues just mounting up in addition to his Crohn's disease, so share him if

Trevor:

you want to, Joe, otherwise tell people that you're perfectly, uh, well you're

Trevor:

not fine but you don't want to talk

Joe:

about it.

Joe:

I'm on the road to mending, so.

Joe:

Good.

Joe:

All good.

Trevor:

Yeah, so, yeah.

Trevor:

Just a bunch of, just a bunch of invalids here.

Trevor:

Two guys with Crohn's disease, one with MS, and, uh, And Joe, you're

Trevor:

racking up other ones along the way.

Trevor:

Crikey.

Trevor:

Yeah, if you're in the chat room, say hello and we will endeavour

Trevor:

to incorporate your comments.

Trevor:

Gentlemen, I'm up for any diversions that you want to make, but I was going

Trevor:

to talk a bit about, um, Gaza and Lebanon and just people being blown up.

Trevor:

It's

Joe:

alright, Trump's going to fix it.

Trevor:

Yeah, well

Joe:

The war will be over in five minutes.

Trevor:

Well, maybe the Russia Ukrainian war.

Trevor:

He might be keen to get that one finished so he can concentrate on

Trevor:

the Gaza war and Which is not even a war, because it's just a massacre.

Trevor:

And the China war, that's what he's

Joe:

You've noticed his pick for Israeli ambassador.

Joe:

Duh.

Joe:

Doesn't believe in the West Bank?

Trevor:

Of course not.

Trevor:

Of course not.

Trevor:

So He's picked a few people, Scott.

Trevor:

And, um, and the word is I know.

Trevor:

He's picked a few of them.

Trevor:

They're pretty crazy.

Trevor:

I haven't looked at the details of these people.

Trevor:

I've seen snippets.

Trevor:

Like Marco Rubio was some, um He's got, like, Kissinger's role.

Trevor:

Isn't that right?

Trevor:

Secretary

Scott:

of State?

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

And he's absolutely, um

Scott:

He doesn't like China at all.

Trevor:

No, he's quite pro Israel.

Joe:

RFK Jr.

Joe:

is Health Secretary.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

And Elon Musk.

Joe:

Anti vaxxer, anti fluoride.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

Yeah, Elmo and Vivek Ramaswamy, as the Department of Dogecoins, sorry,

Joe:

Department of Governmental Efficiency.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

Which just happens to spell out some cryptocurrency that Elon was touting.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

And, you know, a department of government efficiency that starts with two bosses.

Joe:

Yeah, yeah.

Joe:

And actually has zero power.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

Somebody has said, um, he's given Elon the second controller but not plugged it in.

Joe:

Right.

Joe:

Because you know when you're playing video games and the kids they're

Joe:

nagging you because they want to play as well, you hand them the second

Joe:

controller but you don't plug it in so they think they're playing the game,

Trevor:

but

Joe:

actually they're not.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Vivek Ramaswamy, another sort of tech.

Trevor:

Is he a billionaire?

Trevor:

If he's not he's close to it.

Trevor:

I think

Joe:

so.

Joe:

I don't

Scott:

know.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

They're going to be running Department of Government Efficiency.

Scott:

And then apparently They're going to cut the budget by two trillion

Scott:

dollars per annum, which is ridiculous.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

Because, you know, like was like, it was said, just, uh, forget who was talking

Scott:

about it, but he said that only 15% of the federal budget goes on wages.

Scott:

So, you know, if you are hoping to do that through government efficiency

Scott:

of cutting people, you know, you've gotta spend, you're gonna,

Scott:

you're gonna have to sack everyone.

Joe:

No, no.

Joe:

So they're gonna get rid of veteran healthcare.

Scott:

Mm-Hmm.

Scott:

, Joe: because, you know, that's a, that's a large expense.

Scott:

They don't need to worry about.

Scott:

And They're gonna get rid of the Department of Education.

Scott:

They're gonna sell off NOAA.

Trevor:

What's

Joe:

NOAA?

Joe:

National Oceanic, I think, and Atmospheric Administration.

Joe:

I don't know.

Joe:

It's their weather people, basically.

Trevor:

Yeah, he needs that.

Joe:

Yep.

Joe:

They want to privatize that.

Joe:

Yep.

Trevor:

Just the idea that these these tech billionaires are such

Trevor:

magnificent operators of businesses.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

And they're therefore

Trevor:

going to be fantastic operators of government departments.

Trevor:

The first part's not true, and neither is the second part.

Scott:

You only look at how they got their money, how they got their start in life.

Scott:

Like, you know, they were both Inheritors.

Scott:

They inherited a great big amount of money from their parents.

Trevor:

And screwed over, at least in Elon Musk's case, a bunch of people.

Trevor:

Oh, absolutely he did.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Joe:

Apparently there was some quiz show where they asked a bunch of

Joe:

which, which of these, which of these companies didn't Elon Musk start?

Joe:

And there was a list of companies and then the odd one out was supposed to be Amazon.

Joe:

But also in there was, um Tesla.

Joe:

And PayPal.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

Well, PayPal was a merger.

Trevor:

He was part of some other group, but he'd sort of come in later on

Trevor:

after other people had started as well.

Trevor:

He comes in and bullies his way in and gets

Joe:

the Well, no, he'd set up X.

Joe:

com, which was an online banking.

Joe:

He seems to have a liking for the letter X.

Joe:

And then that merged or was bought out by PayPal, which is how he ended up at

Trevor:

PayPal.

Joe:

But yeah, Tesla, he bought out and part of the buying out deal was that

Joe:

he could rewrite the company history.

Joe:

Yeah, yeah,

Trevor:

so, um, yeah, terrible people and they're just gonna be put

Trevor:

in charge and just the numbskulls who think this is gonna be great.

Trevor:

Anyway, um If you're in the chat room say hello, if you're one of the patrons

Trevor:

your name is being scrolled down the bottom Thank you to the patrons Oh Let

Trevor:

that go for a bit longer and then turn it off, so, yeah, anything else you want

Trevor:

to say about Trump, Scott, or America in general, I didn't have anything else.

Scott:

You know, as much as I hate to admit it, I think you're

Scott:

right, I think we are witnessing the um, first opening salvos of

Scott:

the decline of the American Empire,

Trevor:

I think it

Scott:

is going to fall apart now, and it depends on how long the electorate

Scott:

takes to wake up to it, you know, it's,

Scott:

I said to you and your wife a few years ago, I said that I think America

Scott:

was two or three bad decisions away from becoming the Republic of Gilead.

Scott:

The first bad decision was the, um, Supreme Court overturning Roe v.

Scott:

Wade.

Scott:

The second bad decision was re electing this dickhead.

Joe:

Hmm.

Scott:

So, we've just got to find out The first

Joe:

bad decision was, um, Citizens United.

Scott:

Oh yeah, probably.

Joe:

Which has led to this.

Scott:

Anyway, it's just one of those things.

Scott:

I just, I do hope that they manage to wake up to themselves before it's too late.

Joe:

The people who say here, Oh, you know, we're safe in our

Joe:

nice little secular way of life.

Joe:

And we need to look to America because.

Joe:

They're playing the long game, the Christian Nationalists, and

Joe:

they're trying to do it here.

Joe:

They are training up the next politicians, the next lawyers, the next judges.

Joe:

They would very much, I mean, we don't have a Supreme Court like

Joe:

they do in America that they can stack in quite the same way.

Trevor:

The irony is that the Right complains about cultural Marxism, which

Trevor:

is basically following the Gramsci model that you infiltrate the institutions.

Trevor:

And change the culture by controlling the institutions and the right Which

Scott:

is precisely what the right has done in the US.

Scott:

Yes, the right

Trevor:

is claiming that the left has done that in universities.

Trevor:

Um, but in actual fact, it's the right that has infiltrated,

Trevor:

um, positions of power that have enabled a change of culture.

Trevor:

So, in media, in, um In the way that, um, well, just infiltration of government

Trevor:

positions for starters, infiltration of the Republican Party, um, and the

Trevor:

Democratic Party for that matter, like in, in all manner of walks of life in

Trevor:

institutions full of Christians who, um, you know, the seven mountains are

Trevor:

basically, um, what they're working on.

Trevor:

So That's that's the irony of this cultural marxism is it's actually

Trevor:

the right that's been successful in in the Gramsci model, but uh

Joe:

Behind every accusation

Trevor:

Yes,

Joe:

here's a confession.

Joe:

Yeah,

Trevor:

true Joe true.

Trevor:

I yeah true Uh, yeah John says it's a 50 50 chance Trump will tank the US economy.

Scott:

Well, that's a very distinct possibility.

Scott:

I think that at the very least they've signed up for a massive wave of inflation.

Scott:

Because, you know, when you go into Walmart, most of

Scott:

the stuff is made in China.

Scott:

So if he slaps a 60 percent tariff on it, You know, and he's going to end

Scott:

up with, um, warm up prices will go through the roof, which will result in

Scott:

inflation across the country, which will result in the Federal Reserve keeping

Scott:

interest rates higher for longer, which will end up tanking the US economy.

Trevor:

But you know what?

Trevor:

If over the next four years the, um, stock market improved 15 percent per

Trevor:

annum per year, people would go, well, you know, he was great for the economy.

Trevor:

But the, but the financial Economy is not the real economy.

Trevor:

No, no.

Trevor:

So Wall Street is not High Street.

Trevor:

And so, um, so it, it, who knows?

Trevor:

It wouldn't surprise.

Trevor:

That's the problem at

Joe:

the moment with, um, uh, for Biden.

Joe:

It is that Wall Street is doing really well.

Joe:

But the average punter, um, was complaining about the price of their eggs.

Trevor:

Yes.

Joe:

To which I saw some comedian saying, Who's eating all these fucking eggs?

Trevor:

There was an egg shortage about 80 months ago.

Trevor:

There was.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

And did you

Joe:

see the, uh, yeah, bird flu, there's been a slaughter of birds.

Joe:

Hmm.

Joe:

Um, did you see the Mexican president?

Joe:

Saying, you know, we welcome Trump, um, if he's going to start rounding up

Joe:

and deporting, uh, citizens, then, uh, there's a few thousand Americans in

Joe:

Mexico that will round up and deport.

Trevor:

Oh, okay.

Trevor:

Come and collect them.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Because it'd be a large expat community living in Mexico on the

Trevor:

cheap, in the way that, uh, British live in Spain on the cheap, and

Trevor:

Australians live in Bali on the cheap.

Scott:

Absolutely.

Trevor:

Yeah, so um, Essential Lord Don, Essential Lord Don, what does he say?

Trevor:

The Christian lobbies only care about our immortal souls and they will take

Trevor:

away all our human rights to do so.

Trevor:

We should be grateful they care so much.

Trevor:

Ah, bit of sarcasm from Essential Lord Don.

Scott:

Well, I don't care so much about the Christian lobby.

Trevor:

Just before we finish on Trump, this was when he announced,

Trevor:

um, what he was doing with Elon Musk.

Trevor:

This is verbatim, his statement.

Trevor:

Um, I am pleased to announce that the great Elon Musk, working in

Trevor:

conjunction with American patriot Vivek Ramaswamy, will lead the

Trevor:

Department of Government Efficiency.

Trevor:

Together, these two wonderful Americans will pave the way for my

Trevor:

administration to dismantle government bureaucracy slash excess regulations.

Trevor:

Cut wasteful expenditures and restructure federal agencies.

Trevor:

Essential to the Save America Movement.

Scott:

Yeah, but see, what he's actually aiming to do is to strip

Scott:

away any sort of teeth that the environment regulations have still got.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

You know, he's going to strip them away, he's going to make Drill Baby Drill a

Scott:

motto that everyone's got to live by.

Scott:

You know, he's um But

Trevor:

just the The description, I'm pleased to announce that the great Elon

Trevor:

Musk, it's like, it's like the wizard.

Trevor:

It's like announcing the Wizard of Oz.

Joe:

Yeah, absolutely.

Joe:

Don't look behind the curtain.

Trevor:

Not enough totos around.

Trevor:

What else have we got to talk about here?

Trevor:

I've got to get a bit closer so I can see the screen.

Trevor:

It's off to the side.

Trevor:

Um, yeah, we'll talk a bit about Gaza.

Trevor:

Um, um, oh, well, actually, um, did you guys see that Biden

Trevor:

has authorised Zelensky to use long range missiles on Russia?

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Witch Hunt.

Trevor:

Just the statement itself, the President of the USA has authorised.

Trevor:

The President of the Ukraine about how we can use missiles against another country.

Trevor:

Well, they are

Scott:

American, they are American made and supplied missiles.

Scott:

Yep.

Scott:

So, I understand that they actually were worried about it provoking the

Scott:

Russians into using, potentially using battlefield nukes and that sort of stuff.

Joe:

Well, they were also

Scott:

worried that

Joe:

America would be seen as a legitimate target.

Joe:

That was, that was the real worry.

Joe:

Yep.

Joe:

Was, uh, the Russians had said, if you start using American weapons, we're

Joe:

considering it an act of war by America.

Trevor:

Yeah, well, the Russians have said, uh, if, if that's the

Trevor:

case, NATO is involved, as far as the Russians are concerned.

Trevor:

And they said that quite clearly, if you start using long range ballistic missiles,

Trevor:

we will consider that NATO involvement.

Trevor:

And the US, um, whatever department said, yeah, we've authorised Zelensky

Trevor:

to do this, and no, we don't think that that's going to change the

Trevor:

nature of the conflict in any way.

Joe:

Well, but, um, you know, on the flip side, uh, Russia has been quite happily

Joe:

hiding behind their international lines to launch attacks on, um, the Ukraine.

Joe:

Going, ha, ha, ha, you can't use your decent weapons to attack us back here.

Joe:

So I think, I think it's perfectly valid if these are launching bases for attacks

Joe:

on the Ukraine to be hit by long range weapons no matter where they come from.

Trevor:

Do you agree with me that Ukraine should now give in and try and

Trevor:

negotiate the current, the current I don't

Scott:

think

Trevor:

that, I don't think

Scott:

they should give in.

Scott:

You haven't reached the

Trevor:

point yet.

Scott:

No, I don't think they had, because if you actually negotiate with that prick,

Scott:

he runs behind his borders, licks his wounds, rebuilds his army and comes back

Scott:

in to take another little piece of it.

Joe:

In that case, you'd never They've got two months to grab as

Joe:

much land as possible before Trump comes in and forces them to negotiate.

Joe:

Scott,

Trevor:

on the basis of that argument, there's no point in any sides ever

Trevor:

reaching an armistice in any war.

Scott:

Not if you've got, not if you've got a proven liar on the other side.

Trevor:

He has lied repeatedly.

Trevor:

He

Scott:

has repeatedly lied that didn't have

Trevor:

proven liars.

Scott:

I don't know.

Scott:

But you know, well, okay, let's go back to the history of armistices.

Scott:

You had an armistice in 1918 that everyone's honestly believed was

Scott:

a European civil war that started in 1944, was finished in 1945

Scott:

by the outside European powers finally putting an end to it.

Scott:

You had an armistice that was signed at the end of the Korean War, which

Scott:

has, yes, it has held for a very long time, but you've still got,

Scott:

they are still technically at war, and you've got the North, you've

Scott:

got the North Koreans, honestly.

Scott:

Wouldn't the Korean solution

Trevor:

be a good one for Ukraine right now?

Scott:

It would be, if it would actually hold, but I don't think

Scott:

it's going to hold with that prick.

Trevor:

Was the North Korean regime at the time a bunch of proven liars?

Trevor:

No, they weren't

Scott:

a bunch of proven liars.

Scott:

They weren't.

Scott:

They were barely a young country that had started our lives.

Trevor:

Okay, so just to throw more young Ukrainians, the Ukrainians

Trevor:

themselves don't want to fight.

Trevor:

I know they don't

Scott:

want to fight.

Scott:

They're done.

Scott:

They've had a gutful.

Scott:

They say this is a waste of

Trevor:

human life.

Trevor:

They should stop.

Trevor:

They want something

Scott:

to end it.

Scott:

They

Trevor:

want, yes.

Scott:

I don't believe that they can actually go to the

Scott:

negotiating table just yet.

Scott:

They've got to actually, they should be able to use a few of these long range

Scott:

weapons, blast the Russians out of their bunkers and that sort of stuff.

Scott:

Then they can actually say to that prick, now it's time to talk.

Trevor:

Scott, if you had a 25 year old son or daughter.

Scott:

I don't have any kids.

Scott:

But if you

Trevor:

put yourself in that position.

Scott:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Would you want them being sent off to that front line, arguing over some mud

Scott:

in eastern Ukraine, rather than,

Trevor:

rather than, rather than, yeah,

Scott:

but rather than, yeah,

Trevor:

but rather than.

Trevor:

agree to a ceasefire and hope for the best?

Joe:

Would you rather have them living under a Putin administration,

Joe:

um, compared to dying for the possibility of getting some freedom?

Trevor:

What, they're the ones who are trapped behind enemy lines at the moment.

Trevor:

The ones who

Joe:

are in the various oblasts, the Donbass, where, where,

Joe:

where the Territory that's

Trevor:

already taken.

Joe:

Are

Trevor:

they fighting back in those periods?

Trevor:

No, no.

Trevor:

So there's

Joe:

been a lot of suppression of, um, uh, militants.

Joe:

So there has been some I'd be telling them to stop fighting, lay

Trevor:

low, and try and make a new life.

Joe:

Even if it's a new life, you're still going to get rounded

Joe:

up by the FSB and tortured.

Trevor:

I can't believe that out of all these options, a ceasefire on the

Trevor:

current lines is just not the option.

Scott:

It's not the option because he has proven time and time again that he doesn't

Scott:

give a shit about what he signs up to.

Scott:

A ceasefire possibly that's

Trevor:

On the other side as well, the Ukrainians are just as guilty.

Scott:

Yeah, I know.

Scott:

They're just, they signed up to Mins, both admitted they're both as bad as each other

Trevor:

and admitted they had no, I, no intention of complying

Trevor:

with the Minsk agreement.

Trevor:

So Putin did, he said, oh, that's what I want.

Trevor:

It was, it was, it was the Ukrainians who said, well, victim

Joe:

wasn't involved in

Trevor:

the

Joe:

Minsker

Trevor:

agreement,

Joe:

was he?

Joe:

What was the Minsky agreement?

Joe:

What do you mean?

Joe:

He wasn't, wasn't that the 1990s one where they signed over their nuclear weapons?

Trevor:

No, no.

Trevor:

The Minsk agreement was the one to, to sort out this Donbas area for a ceasefire.

Dr:

Right.

Trevor:

So, and, uh, and, uh, and basically Ukraine said, well it was never

Trevor:

our intention to agree with that, we were just stalling, because the terms of

Trevor:

it, they, they never started working on.

Trevor:

It, I just, um, at some point they've got to give in, and throwing

Trevor:

young bodies into the meat grinder is a crime, a war crime by the

Trevor:

Ukrainians against their own people.

Trevor:

Terrible.

Trevor:

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree.

Scott:

Well, we will agree to disagree.

Scott:

It's just, uh, I, I think you're seeing the world through like

Scott:

rose colored glasses, you know.

Trevor:

How's that rose colored?

Trevor:

I'm saying you've lost.

Trevor:

Give in.

Trevor:

That's, that's the realistic glasses

Scott:

rather than the rose colored ones

Trevor:

that say, the rose colored glasses are the ones that say,

Trevor:

Keep fighting because there's something to be gained from this.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

That's the rose coloured glass.

Scott:

The rose coloured glasses you're looking on is you honestly believe

Scott:

that Vladimir Putin is a good guy.

Trevor:

He's not a good guy.

Trevor:

He's a prick.

Trevor:

No, I don't think he's a good guy.

Joe:

Or that he'll honour any agreement.

Joe:

Exactly.

Joe:

Any ceasefire.

Trevor:

I think he considers himself a patriot.

Joe:

Yeah,

Scott:

he probably does consider himself a patriot, which is, which

Scott:

is fine as long as he stays on the Russian side of the, of the border.

Trevor:

I've never said he's a patriot.

Trevor:

You know, he

Scott:

honestly, I honestly think that he honestly believes

Scott:

that Ukraine is part of Russia.

Trevor:

He thinks it should be.

Scott:

Yeah, I know.

Scott:

He thinks it should be, which is wrong.

Joe:

They were going to seize Kiev in two days.

Scott:

This war was supposed to be over within a fortnight.

Scott:

It's now two years on, and we are still fighting.

Scott:

They are still fighting about it.

Trevor:

They should stop.

Trevor:

I'm saying they should stop.

Trevor:

Yeah, well, so should the Russians.

Trevor:

The

Scott:

Russians should actually lay down their arms and walk away.

Scott:

Yep.

Scott:

I honestly believe that you cannot just put all this on Ukraine, because

Scott:

the Russians were the ones that fired the first shots, they were the ones

Scott:

that actually marched into the east, they originally, they originally

Scott:

aimed, they originally aimed for Kiev.

Scott:

The Ukrainians weren't

Trevor:

firing shots in the Donbass.

Scott:

But they were firing against those that had tried

Scott:

to actually take the Donbass.

Trevor:

Separatists.

Scott:

They were separatists.

Scott:

The Ukrainians were fighting.

Scott:

Separatists.

Scott:

Ethnic

Trevor:

conflict.

Trevor:

They were firing.

Trevor:

They were firing.

Trevor:

Like the little

Joe:

green man separatists in, um, in, uh, the, the, uh, Peninsula.

Trevor:

One man's separatists is another man's, uh, I don't know.

Trevor:

Chance?

Trevor:

It's fine.

Joe:

We're just going

Trevor:

to go around

Joe:

in circles.

Joe:

I

Trevor:

can tell.

Trevor:

I can't.

Trevor:

I just.

Trevor:

It, uh.

Trevor:

What are we, in the uh, John says, sadly I fundamentally disagree, Russia

Trevor:

invaded a sovereign country and to surrender will just encourage Putin.

Scott:

It will.

Trevor:

Encourage him to what?

Scott:

He'll encourage, it'll encourage him to look at China.

Scott:

He will look at, he will look at those three northern

Scott:

countries, Latvia, Lithuania, and Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia.

Scott:

He will look at those three and he'll say, oh, they're, you know, they really

Scott:

should never have been handed over.

Scott:

They really should never have gained their independence when the Soviet Union fell.

Scott:

I think they should remain part of Russia.

Scott:

And he will probably try and invade them.

Trevor:

Do you know what?

Trevor:

If you, the Ukrainians, and you keep the line where it is, you would say,

Trevor:

I don't give a shit about those other countries, I want the line here and

Trevor:

I want to stop killing Ukrainians.

Trevor:

That's what I would say if I was in charge of the Ukraine.

Trevor:

I'd say I don't care about the risk to these other countries.

Scott:

Once they had moved around and once they'd taken all those other

Scott:

little countries, then they'd actually say, well, Ukraine still isn't solved.

Scott:

We're going to take it back.

Scott:

We're going to have the Russian ruble being the, will be the, uh, uh,

Scott:

currency of the area, and that'll be it.

Scott:

You could, you could

Trevor:

say that, uh, in any circumstance, say Russia withdrew, Back to the original

Trevor:

boundaries, you could still say, well they're going to invade again next week.

Joe:

Absolutely.

Trevor:

Which is why, which is why Ukraine wants to be part of NATO.

Trevor:

You could say that whatever scenario you come up with.

Scott:

Which is why that those two traditionally

Scott:

neutral countries joined NATO.

Scott:

Because they are shit scared of Russia.

Trevor:

And NATO should have said, No, we need a neutral space.

Trevor:

You, as a sovereign country, are quite entitled to want to join NATO.

Trevor:

But we,

Joe:

as NATO, are entitled

Trevor:

to say You can de invade it, we

Joe:

don't care.

Joe:

We're not going to do anything about it.

Joe:

No,

Trevor:

because of the risk.

Trevor:

This isn't some crackpot Trevor idea, you know that I'm speaking about what, what

Trevor:

dozens of well credentialed, um, diplomats from Henry Kissinger downwards have said.

Trevor:

So what I'm saying is the orthodox view, it's not unorthodox.

Joe:

It's the domino effect.

Joe:

You know, if we don't stop them invading the Ukraine, then they'll invade there.

Joe:

Sorry,

Trevor:

wasn't

Joe:

that Kissinger?

Trevor:

You're claiming the domino effect.

Trevor:

I'm saying there's no domino.

Trevor:

You're the one saying there's a domino.

Joe:

No, Henry Kissinger said there was a domino.

Joe:

So he's perfectly happy with the dominoes in Southeast Asia, but he

Joe:

doesn't believe it about Russia.

Trevor:

All I'm saying is, this is the orthodox viewpoint, where

Trevor:

I'm not out of the ordinary here.

Trevor:

What I'm saying is completely in line with what What I'm saying

Joe:

is Russia's neighbours are afraid of Russia and want to join

Joe:

NATO for a perfectly good reason.

Trevor:

Absolutely.

Trevor:

Don't deny that for a second.

Trevor:

But NATO should have said, no, because we need a neutral barrier

Trevor:

between us and them, and by you joining us, that's not good.

Trevor:

So yes, we fully understand you wanting to join, but no.

Trevor:

It's like Mexico saying we want to join with China in some defense pact Because

Trevor:

we're worried about America invading.

Trevor:

If the US were threatening to invade, absolutely.

Trevor:

And really, you'd say to Mexico, that's not a good idea to join

Trevor:

with China, because that's just going to increase tensions.

Trevor:

Like, there are some times where you say, I know what you

Trevor:

want, but you can't have it.

Trevor:

I know from your personal selfish point of view, that's what you want.

Trevor:

If

Joe:

America wasn't building a wall to stop the Mexicans coming

Joe:

in, I might believe it, but

Trevor:

Yeah, okay.

Trevor:

Why should, uh, Wayne, Siemens, why should Ukraine give up their country?

Trevor:

Well, they should give up what they've lost already, because it's

Trevor:

killing their people to maintain it.

Trevor:

In some wars, guess what?

Trevor:

You lose, you, um, dust yourself off, and you set a new line.

Trevor:

Sorry.

Trevor:

That's why they should give up because they're fighting a

Trevor:

country that is way too big.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

For them, they have no chance of winning.

Trevor:

They are just killing off generation.

Trevor:

1940 should have

Joe:

just given up

Trevor:

of, of Ukrainians.

Joe:

Who's that?

Joe:

France in 1940 should have just given up.

Joe:

They were fighting a country that was far too big, far too powerful.

Trevor:

Well, they had allies either coming and and on board or

Trevor:

that they could think would come.

Trevor:

So yeah.

Trevor:

Why doesn't Russia surrender?

Trevor:

Because they want the land they have invaded.

Trevor:

Correct.

Trevor:

Don't disagree with that.

Trevor:

They're not going to give in.

Trevor:

They're too big.

Trevor:

Anyway.

Scott:

So, might is right, is it, Trevor?

Trevor:

You've got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them.

Trevor:

You've got to, you've got to, a man's got to know his limitations.

Trevor:

And when you're getting beaten up badly You know, what is, uh, I'm sure, is it,

Trevor:

um, what's that art of war, Chinese art?

Trevor:

Sun Tzu, Sun Tzu.

Trevor:

I'm sure at some point it would be, I've never read him or her.

Trevor:

You've never read it?

Trevor:

But I'm sure somewhere in there, if you're getting the shit, the shit beaten

Trevor:

out of you, you, you would go back.

Trevor:

and regroup and live to fight another day.

Scott:

I don't think it actually goes into that.

Scott:

It's basically a hell of a lot of, um,

Scott:

advice on how you actually to fight a war and that type of thing,

Scott:

more so than surrendering a war.

Scott:

It's

Trevor:

one of those

Scott:

things, like, you know, the whole thing started off with the, um, Ukrainians

Scott:

were actually dragging out of the war, out of their, um, out of the basements

Scott:

of their museums and that sort of stuff.

Scott:

Weapons that were used in the 1914 battles.

Scott:

These were Vickers machine guns and that type of thing.

Scott:

They were using them, they were finding they were actually quite

Scott:

effective, and then the Yanks actually said, geez, these guys are

Scott:

actually putting up a decent fight.

Scott:

These plucky Ukrainians.

Scott:

Well, they did actually, they did actually admire the way they were actually

Scott:

prepared, that they were prepared to put their lives on the line and that sort

Scott:

of stuff to fight for their country.

Scott:

So that's where the, that's where the first lot of

Scott:

American aid started to arrive.

Scott:

And then the, then the, then the, uh, Russians were pushed back and they

Scott:

said, okay, we're going to pour some more money and weapons into this.

Scott:

And that sort of thing.

Scott:

Now,

Trevor:

well, we've spent a lot of time and effort installing

Trevor:

a pro Western government here.

Trevor:

We don't want them to fall

Scott:

over.

Scott:

That was a pro Western government that won a genuine election.

Scott:

Now, I'm not going to argue with you about the last guy and that

Scott:

sort of stuff, he was pro Russian.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Scott:

I think clearly that the, um, people did not want to have the Russians

Scott:

involved because they have very long memories of the Soviet Union, and

Scott:

the Soviets were not nice political masters, and they had to, they weren't

Scott:

prepared to accept a pro-Russian p.

Scott:

So they pulled him down.

Scott:

Now, who was behind that revolution?

Scott:

I don't know, but the revolution worked.

Scott:

It did actually end up resulting in Zelensky winning that election.

Scott:

So, Zelensky won the election.

Scott:

I don't think he was actually prepared for it and that sort of stuff.

Scott:

He didn't actually believe the Russians were coming, despite having warnings

Scott:

from the CIA and everything else.

Scott:

He didn't, he didn't believe it, and then they're invaded.

Scott:

But, rather than actually accepting the Americans offer, which was to fly

Scott:

him out of there, he said he didn't need a ride, he needs ammunition.

Scott:

And that's what he wanted to do.

Scott:

He just wanted ammunition.

Scott:

To stand up and fight the Russians

Trevor:

In the chat room, Wayne says the Americans were prepared

Trevor:

to give the top half of Australia to Japan during World War ii, but

Trevor:

Australians wouldn't stand for that.

Scott:

No, that's Ukrainians the case that that's not UK case.

Scott:

The Ukrainians shouldn't

Trevor:

stand for that sort of thing either.

Trevor:

That's not the case.

Trevor:

The the Americans a secret call fall of Singapore, and we just said, fair enough.

Trevor:

You've won.

Trevor:

No, that was, it's yours.

Scott:

That was the or live to fight another day.

Scott:

That was the Brisbane line.

Scott:

That was actually.

Scott:

That was actually taken over by the Australian government.

Scott:

They were prepared to defend, um, basically south of Brisbane.

Scott:

That was the Brisbane line.

Scott:

That was the Australian government actually wanted that, not the Americans.

Scott:

When the Americans got involved in the war, which was in

Scott:

December 1940, they actually came down here, what was his name?

Scott:

MacArthur came down here from the Philippines and that sort

Scott:

of stuff and he's, he was convinced he'd find an army here.

Scott:

He found a rabble and that sort of stuff and he spent a fair bit of time

Scott:

trying to coax the Australians into a more professional defence force.

Scott:

So anyway, it is what it is.

Scott:

Um, um, They, the Brisbane line was actually something that was

Scott:

actually authored by the Australian government, not the American government.

Scott:

Anyway, I agree with you though, um, it is something that would have been

Scott:

pretty abhorrent for us to accept.

Trevor:

But if some amazingly powerful, um, force had invaded Australia and

Trevor:

worked its way down and was just overwhelmingly superior and got to the

Trevor:

Brisbane line and said, We could keep going here, or, tell you what, we'll

Trevor:

do a peace deal and we'll stop here.

Trevor:

Uh, it, if it was in the sort of mismatch of power that was happening

Trevor:

with Ukraine and Russia, then we should say, rather than sending young men and

Trevor:

women into a meat grinder just north of Brisbane, we should agree to a

Trevor:

ceasefire and live to fight another day.

Trevor:

But it never got to that point, so it's not a good analogy.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

It's one of

Scott:

those things, I just don't know, you know.

Scott:

I just love the way

Trevor:

people are willing to throw other people into a meat grinder.

Trevor:

Love it.

Trevor:

Oh, you folk should fight till the last Ukrainian.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

And there'll be none of you left, but you should do it anyway.

Trevor:

When do people count more than land?

Trevor:

Say again?

Trevor:

When do people count more than land?

Scott:

Well, I just think that that landing Yeah, but that land being

Scott:

controlled by the Russians, you're still going to have, you're still

Scott:

going to have Ukrainians living on that land, and they're going to be

Scott:

controlled by the Russian government.

Trevor:

Do you know what?

Trevor:

The Russians, you could cut a deal, we'd say to the Russians, let the Ukrainians

Trevor:

out, anyone who wants to leave, come out.

Trevor:

They'd probably agree to that, because they wouldn't care.

Trevor:

Any, in fact, they'd be quite happy for that.

Trevor:

Get rid of those pesky Ukrainians who don't want to be here.

Trevor:

Yeah, sure, take them, we don't need them, we don't need bodies.

Trevor:

So yeah, part of a deal.

Trevor:

Anybody here who wants, who doesn't want to stay, they can go.

Joe:

I think the usual misinformation had happened.

Joe:

I think Putin's spies had told him that the Ukrainians

Joe:

welcomed him with open arms.

Joe:

That the Ukrainians were just waiting to throw off the shackles of their

Joe:

overlords and wanted to be part of Russia.

Joe:

I think Putin was misinformed as to how willing Ukraine was to fight.

Trevor:

Um, maybe.

Trevor:

But you could certainly argue that the ethnic Russians in the Eastern Ukraine

Trevor:

were quite happy for a Russian occupation, as were the people in Crimea, apparently.

Joe:

Well, those that weren't were quickly rounded up and dealt with.

Trevor:

Seems quite arguable that the people of Crimea were more than

Trevor:

happy with the Russian takeover.

Scott:

Well, I don't think that anyone ever legitimately asked them.

Trevor:

John says, so fundamentally, Trevor, you're not keen on the underdog.

Trevor:

Well, it's not about being keen, it's about being realistic.

Trevor:

Um, would you just move to New Zealand if China invaded Australia, Trevor?

Trevor:

No!

Trevor:

You'd see what happens.

Trevor:

But when you get to the point of what we've got now with Ukraine

Trevor:

and Then, um, yeah, you would, you would organise a line of peace.

Trevor:

You'd concede.

Trevor:

Um, ask Putin, he has thrown 300, 000 odd into trenches of eastern

Trevor:

Ukraine that will never get home.

Trevor:

I don't know where the numbers, John, where you get 300, 000 from.

Trevor:

I

Scott:

think that's based on the estimates from the United States.

Scott:

They're suggesting that total casualties on both sides is up to 300, 000.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

So I don't know whether that's anywhere near the ballpark or not.

Trevor:

Cause as you know, I refuse to trust those figures.

Trevor:

But

Scott:

it could, it could be, it could be 250 odd thousand died on the Russian side.

Scott:

It could be 50, 000 died on the Ukrainian side.

Scott:

You're never going to know because neither side actually tells.

Scott:

The deaths, deaths, excuse me, neither side actually tells

Scott:

the death, death statistics.

Trevor:

Russians generally are happy with Putin, John, like

Trevor:

sort of in terms of popularity.

Trevor:

They're quite happy because things are going well in Russia.

Trevor:

Ukrainians generally are not happy with Zelensky.

Trevor:

We'll never get a poll for that.

Trevor:

But, uh,

Trevor:

There will never be a line of peace with Russia, they want the entire country.

Trevor:

Well, in that case, we should never have had a peace in North and

Trevor:

South Korea, and they should still be killing each other up there.

Trevor:

But, there was a line drawn, and a peace

Joe:

Don't forget, American troops are still sitting on the DMZ, aren't they?

Trevor:

Well,

Trevor:

you could argue, as part of a ceasefire, for some sort of

Trevor:

arrangement of some sort, to help.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

It's one of those things, I think that Russia actually is genuine about this.

Scott:

The only way I would accept, well, it's not up to me, but if I was in

Scott:

Ukraine's, if I was in Zelensky's position, what I would be strongly

Scott:

arguing for is membership of NATO, just to make sure that you are never

Scott:

going to cross the border again.

Trevor:

No, the whole point was that they can then put missiles,

Trevor:

they can then put NATO missiles in Ukraine and point them at Moscow.

Trevor:

And that's the whole point.

Trevor:

But they've

Scott:

got, they've got NATO missiles in war, in Poland.

Scott:

They've got NATO missiles in those three, uh, countries in the Baltics.

Scott:

They're probably going to have NATO missiles in Finland.

Scott:

Well, they

Joe:

have NATO missiles now.

Joe:

What do you think those MLRSs are?

Joe:

Actually, they're rockets, not missiles, but yes.

Joe:

Yeah,

Trevor:

well, uh, nuclear, well.

Trevor:

You know what, I've been using Mexico as an example of this,

Trevor:

it's been the wrong example.

Trevor:

It should have been California.

Trevor:

Imagine California seceded from the Union and joined China, and then China

Trevor:

wanted to start putting missiles on the Californian border aimed at Washington.

Trevor:

That's more like the metaphor that we should be using.

Trevor:

How would America react?

Trevor:

America wouldn't

Scott:

tolerate that.

Scott:

They'd go nuts.

Trevor:

So why do you expect the Russians to do any different?

Trevor:

It's such a hypocritical

Scott:

position.

Scott:

They are

Trevor:

already surrounded,

Scott:

they are already surrounded by NATO weapons all the way from

Scott:

Finland now down into southern Poland.

Scott:

They've all got NATO missiles down there.

Scott:

So, I just think it would be very hypocritical of them to actually say,

Scott:

no, they can't go any further south.

Joe:

And are there nukes there anyway?

Scott:

I don't know if there's any nukes.

Scott:

I don't think so.

Scott:

I don't think the nukes are, I think the nukes are still in the United States.

Trevor:

Are there any nukes in Ukraine?

Trevor:

I think that's the whole point.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

No, but

Joe:

I mean, are they in Poland?

Joe:

I don't know.

Joe:

Are they in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania?

Joe:

I'd be extremely

Scott:

surprised if they were.

Joe:

I would say it's probably conventional troops, if anything.

Trevor:

So, John says those numbers are well in the ballpark.

Trevor:

Well, how would you know, John?

Trevor:

This is, I think, the 300, 000.

Trevor:

You've got no idea.

Trevor:

According to Russia, they have shot down the Ukrainian Air

Trevor:

Force about four times over.

Joe:

Yeah, the statistics are inflated.

Trevor:

Russian propaganda.

Trevor:

Not like the other guys at all, do you know?

Trevor:

Event Horizon.

Trevor:

This is good.

Trevor:

Everyone's against me.

Trevor:

I don't have a single supporter in the chat room.

Trevor:

There's 12 people watching.

Trevor:

Because you're

Scott:

wrong.

Scott:

In

Trevor:

the end, I'm holding the orthodox view.

Scott:

I know that, but what we have discovered with Putin is

Scott:

that he's not an orthodox player.

Trevor:

Does Trevor believe that Putin would move on Poland or one of

Trevor:

the Baltic states given a ceasefire?

Trevor:

Or would he dial away some of those countries?

Trevor:

Please.

Trevor:

Also duplicate Putin, um, uh,

Joe:

I

Trevor:

mean, would you?

Trevor:

Would, would I?

Joe:

Yeah, would you give up the Baltic states?

Trevor:

Uh, the ones that are already part of NATO?

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Well, Putin's not going to invade them.

Trevor:

Because he knows that triggers NATO.

Joe:

Um, no, because there's the Watson gap.

Trevor:

What's at gap?

Joe:

Um, yeah, there's a, there's a really narrow piece of, um, land

Joe:

between Kaliningrad and Russia.

Trevor:

I don't know enough about that, but the principle would be he's

Trevor:

not going to invade a NATO country.

Joe:

Basically if he goes through Poland to create a, basically cut off

Joe:

the land bridge between Poland and, uh, the Baltic states, he could basically

Joe:

enfilade, trap the Baltic states and invade the Baltic states very easily.

Trevor:

Is one part of NATO?

Trevor:

Sorry?

Trevor:

They are part of NATO.

Trevor:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor:

He's not going to invite a NATO country.

Joe:

Hmm.

Trevor:

Because he's not going to, because he knows it triggers NATO.

Joe:

Yes, but the argument is he could basically win those countries more

Joe:

quickly than NATO could get troops there.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

And NATO are fighting a bridgehead.

Trevor:

But John says that's a bad analogy, California has

Trevor:

not voted for independence.

Trevor:

Well, it's a hypothetical, John.

Trevor:

Texas then.

Trevor:

It's the whole point of a country that used to be part of Russia, mainly Ukraine,

Trevor:

moving over to was never part of Russia,

Scott:

it was part of the Soviet Union.

Scott:

Of Soviet Union, yes.

Scott:

It was a very different place.

Trevor:

Well, was it ever part of Russia?

Trevor:

Oh, historically, maybe.

Trevor:

part of Russia?

Trevor:

Historically, maybe.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

So, um, but a bad analogy.

Trevor:

California was not voted for independence.

Trevor:

But then you go back to the Czars and that sort of stuff.

Trevor:

But the point of the analogy, John, is to show that it was, it's a patch of

Trevor:

land that was Uh, uh, previously part of the Russian slash Soviet Empire, that

Trevor:

in the Russian eyes, has been subject to a colour revolution, and uh, now

Trevor:

they want to point weapons at them.

Trevor:

It just, the hypocrisy.

Trevor:

If it was switched around the other way, America would be going

Trevor:

nuts, and everybody would be saying they're quite entitled to it.

Joe:

So, so America was justified with the

Trevor:

Bay of Peaks then?

Trevor:

Sorry.

Trevor:

I'm just, the point is this is what, uh, the hypocrisy is that people

Trevor:

are saying, um, this is outrageous.

Trevor:

When, if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be, oh, well of course you can't

Trevor:

trust, you can't allow that to happen.

Trevor:

So,

Trevor:

ah, Murray Wer, gosh, Murray's there.

Trevor:

If Trump isn't going to back nato.

Trevor:

Then NATO has a significantly weaker force that may make further land

Trevor:

grabs by Putin more attractive so uh Which is why yeah, but which is why

Joe:

those piss tapes are worth more than

Trevor:

If if trump isn't gonna back nato then nato has a significantly

Trevor:

weaker force, well, that's true That may make further land grabs by Putin more

Trevor:

attractive, that's Makes it easier for him if he thinks that America is not

Trevor:

going to get involved and uphold it's part of NATO Yeah true yeah, but Anyway,

Trevor:

there's spoiling for a war with China.

Trevor:

They're saving up their guns for now.

Trevor:

Anyway, good to see you in the chat room Murray

Joe:

It's been argued that China is actually eyeing up Manchuria.

Joe:

Yeah, because Russia is in a weakened state and China could

Joe:

quite easily grab some of its land back that it lost in Manchuria.

Trevor:

Why would they do that?

Trevor:

Because they can.

Trevor:

Well, they're quite enjoying having the gas station of Russia.

Trevor:

They're loving the BRICS arrangement.

Trevor:

They're able to defeat sanctions by the US.

Trevor:

with the new BRICS arrangement.

Trevor:

So, China, Russia, uh, Iran, it's, it's working out perfectly for them.

Trevor:

They're best of mates.

Trevor:

It's suiting them down to the ground.

Trevor:

So, yeah.

Trevor:

Um, according to Peter Zeehan, Putin was planning on invading

Trevor:

Poland after he had taken Ukraine.

Trevor:

Who's Peter Zeehan?

Trevor:

I don't know who that is.

Trevor:

Um, uh,

Trevor:

um, Anne Murray says there are definitely North Korean troops fighting for Russia.

Trevor:

How do you know, Murray?

Trevor:

Like, there could well be a few observers just figuring out

Trevor:

what's it like in a real war.

Trevor:

But for thousands of troops, no proof yet.

Joe:

Peter Zehan apparently claims on his website to be an expert in geopolitics.

Joe:

Don't we all?

Joe:

Who doesn't?

Joe:

He's been featured in and cited by numerous newspapers and

Joe:

broadcasts, including Wall Street Journal, Forbes, bloody blah.

Trevor:

We can trust him.

Trevor:

John can smell a beer coming on.

Trevor:

Murray says multiple reports coming through YT.

Trevor:

Is that Young Turks?

Trevor:

Multiple reports coming through.

Trevor:

Why wouldn't I have seen a single one?

Trevor:

Oh, YouTube.

Trevor:

Well, Murray, I don't know that we can trust reports coming through YouTube.

Trevor:

YouTube is the source

Joe:

of all truth.

Trevor:

Just because it might show some guys with Asian features in a

Trevor:

Russian, um, YouTube Um, military outfit doesn't mean that they're not Russian.

Scott:

No, they're not actually in Russian uniform.

Scott:

They are in, um, their own country's uniform.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

And they're clearly visible on the ground in the Ukraine.

Scott:

I don't know where they are.

Scott:

There are shots and everything that are taken of them and that sort of thing.

Scott:

I couldn't tell you where they're from.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Scott:

It could be that they're taken from What's the word I'm groping for?

Scott:

They could be part of the, um, Kursk region or something like that.

Scott:

They could be there.

Scott:

They could be in Ukraine.

Scott:

It could be nowhere near there as well.

Scott:

Say again?

Trevor:

They could be nowhere near there as well.

Trevor:

They

Scott:

could be nowhere near there, that's right.

Trevor:

No, we're running out of arguments on the topic.

Scott:

It's one of those things, I just can't think, I

Trevor:

I don't

Scott:

know.

Trevor:

So in this entire chat room we've got going here of 8 people, everybody

Trevor:

thinks that Ukraine should keep fighting and not agree to a ceasefire based on

Trevor:

the current, cause there's one open, if you ceasefire and agree not to join NATO,

Trevor:

um, and concede the ground that's already lost, then Russia's offering a ceasefire.

Trevor:

And nobody in the chat room is up for that.

Scott:

It's one of the, if you can actually trust the bastard, then

Scott:

you'd actually sign up to it, but I don't think you can trust him.

Trevor:

John says, now you are just doubting anything that

Trevor:

doesn't agree with your narrative.

Joe:

I

Trevor:

haven't

Joe:

seen a

Trevor:

single piece of evidence, John.

Trevor:

Not a single piece.

Joe:

What evidence would convince you?

Trevor:

Name something and I'll tell you whether it would be convincing or not.

Joe:

Dead Korean?

Joe:

One?

Joe:

Does it need to be more than one?

Trevor:

Well, it's supposed to be a battalion of infantry.

Trevor:

Like, I fully accept there could be North Korean observers.

Trevor:

There might be a hundred of just observers to sort of, how do you fight a war?

Trevor:

Because it's not often you get to practice.

Trevor:

So there could be, you know, that sort of number.

Trevor:

But actual troops engaged in on the ground fighting, no.

Trevor:

So, um So,

Joe:

I don't know,

Trevor:

name a scenario, like if for example, there was some battle, and they

Trevor:

successfully grabbed a whole bunch of POWs from the Russian side, and a few

Trevor:

dozen of them were clearly North Koreans.

Trevor:

How do you tell they're clearly North

Joe:

Korean?

Trevor:

Well, because the Ukrainians have captured them as prisoners of war, and

Trevor:

somehow these people are paraded in front.

Trevor:

of us, not just by the Ukrainians, but, you know, as prisoners of

Trevor:

war, somehow it's pretty By the

Joe:

way, you know that's against the Geneva Convention.

Joe:

Well, you said what would,

Trevor:

what would Yeah, yeah.

Trevor:

convince me.

Trevor:

I'm trying to come up with a scenario Well, exactly.

Trevor:

where they captured a whole bunch of them.

Trevor:

Well, okay.

Joe:

Yeah, but they're not allowed to parade them in front of cameras, because

Joe:

that's against the Geneva Convention.

Joe:

So how did they prove to you?

Trevor:

Uh, well, you gimme a scenario and I'll say whether it's acceptable or not.

Trevor:

Like you come up with something

Joe:

I, I dunno, I presume, I mean, if they're sending them, they were

Joe:

saying that they're taking all identifi identification off them and giving

Joe:

them clothes that are si, um, make them look like they're a battalion from

Joe:

the Russian border with North Korea.

Joe:

So it would be very difficult.

Joe:

I mean, you could look at nutrition.

Joe:

You could look at a dead body and go, they're malnourished, they're

Joe:

more likely to be from North Korea than from that area of Russia.

Joe:

But, but I don't know, I don't know how we could provide evidence

Joe:

that isn't coming either from the Americans or from the Ukrainians.

Trevor:

Yeah, well, I guess if, uh, I don't know.

Trevor:

I don't know.

Trevor:

I'm willing to examine scenarios where it might be possible.

Trevor:

I mean,

Joe:

so allegedly the Ukrainians have captured radio traffic.

Joe:

Of people speaking Korean with a not South Korean accent,

Joe:

but again, you know, so if they released audio transcripts, you don't have the

Joe:

language skills to be able to tell.

Joe:

So how do you get those transcripts analyzed?

Trevor:

You don't even know where they got it from.

Trevor:

No, exactly.

Trevor:

Yeah, I agree.

Trevor:

It probably would in the, in the, uh, murkiness of war, it probably, it's

Trevor:

very, would be difficult to prove it.

Joe:

Yeah.

Joe:

You, you have to either rely or not rely on the intelligence reports from the.

Joe:

Belligerence.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

So, it will be, John, it's going to be difficult for you to prove.

Trevor:

Maybe that beer isn't coming your way.

Joe:

Are we, are we doing a balance of probabilities beyond,

Joe:

um, uh, beyond reasonable doubt?

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

There are multiple reports of North Korean weapons being

Trevor:

captured from destroyed vehicles.

Trevor:

A

Trevor:

North Korean weapon captured from destroyed vehicles.

Trevor:

I don't think, uh,

Trevor:

that's not proof of a North Korean infantry Like, North Korean weapons?

Trevor:

Maybe the Russians are using them.

Trevor:

Where are AK 47s made?

Scott:

Well, AK 47s used to be made in Russia.

Scott:

Now, I think they're still

Joe:

made in Russia.

Joe:

They're made under license all over the place.

Scott:

Yeah, they're made all over the planet.

Scott:

Yeah, besides, they use AK 74s

Joe:

now, don't they?

Joe:

Say again?

Joe:

So they use AK 74s now, don't they?

Joe:

I couldn't tell you.

Trevor:

So, um, uh, yeah, Murray says you're happy face.

Trevor:

What's that face?

Trevor:

Pumpkin face?

Joe:

No, no, no, I think that was a correction to the

Joe:

I've decided you're wrong.

Joe:

So, yeah.

Trevor:

Right, OK.

Trevor:

Well, um, it does, as you phrased it that way, Joe, it does seem difficult to

Trevor:

imagine how proof will be provided unless there's some massive military success,

Trevor:

uh, and somehow captured soldiers.

Trevor:

Uh, then in breach of the Geneva Convention, paraded in front of, gee, you

Trevor:

know, I wonder if on the, uh, Ukrainian side who are seeking the help of the

Trevor:

West and wanting to increase the scale of the war, whether they would say to

Trevor:

themselves, you know what, we've got these hundred North Korean soldiers, POWs,

Trevor:

we'd love to present them to the world as proof of escalation of this drama.

Trevor:

But gosh, Geneva Convention stops us, so we won't do it.

Trevor:

You think that's likely?

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

You think they would say, hmm, better not do that, that'd be a

Trevor:

breach of the Geneva Convention?

Trevor:

Of course they would trot them out and say, oh look, North Korean's

Trevor:

involved, therefore we need even more help from the West because

Trevor:

those nasty guys are involved.

Trevor:

They're not going to worry about the Geneva Convention, are they?

Trevor:

I don't know.

Trevor:

So all you need, I take it back.

Trevor:

A successful, um, skirmish and capture 100 or so North Korean soldiers.

Trevor:

That'll do it.

Trevor:

They'll present them.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Ah, Essential Lord Don, why don't we just ask the North Koreans?

Trevor:

They wouldn't lie, surely?

Trevor:

Name a side that doesn't lie.

Trevor:

Essential Lord Don.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

Where are we?

Trevor:

Um, speaking of lying Gaza.

Scott:

Yep.

Trevor:

It just gets uglier and uglier.

Trevor:

No it doesn't.

Trevor:

It doesn't?

Joe:

No.

Joe:

There's no proof that it happened.

Trevor:

Well there is.

Trevor:

That's the point.

Joe:

No, but it's just coming out of the Palestinians.

Joe:

No,

Trevor:

it's coming out of the Israelis on their own social media.

Trevor:

These guys are killing people, presenting their own evidence, and boasting

Trevor:

about how they're killing people.

Trevor:

So, we've got satellite imagery, we've got more than enough evidence.

Joe:

Yeah, provided by the Americans.

Joe:

The Americans are just

Trevor:

No, by everybody.

Trevor:

So, Joe, you're being

Trevor:

naughty.

Trevor:

Because this is not, you know, whether there's an atrocity going on in Gaza,

Trevor:

and can we prove it, does not equate to are there North Korean soldiers hiding

Trevor:

in the bushes in the Kursk region.

Trevor:

Yeah, um, actually, let's just, um Ah, this is from a British

Trevor:

surgeon who was working, um, doing some work there in Gaza.

Trevor:

Like this.

Dr:

What I think I found particularly disturbing was that, um, a bomb would

Dr:

drop, maybe on a crowded, tented area, and then the drones would come down and

Dr:

So the drones would come down and pick off civilians, children, and we

Dr:

had Description after description.

Dr:

This is not, you know, an occasional thing.

Dr:

This was day after day after day.

Dr:

Operating on children who would say, I was lying on the ground after a

Dr:

bomber dropped and this quadcopter came down and hovered over me and shot me.

Dr:

And that's clearly a deliberate act and it was a persistent act,

Dr:

persistent targeting of civilians.

Trevor:

I mean, he could be lying, but you hear so many reports like

Trevor:

this, and he has no reason to.

Trevor:

So, um, bodies everywhere, um,

Trevor:

and I mentioned before that,

Trevor:

you know, we don't see enough of the actual, uh, effect of

Trevor:

all this on our TV screens.

Trevor:

Like, you know how you said I said there should be like 30 seconds or a

Trevor:

minute of this, at least every news report, the latest atrocity in Gaza?

Trevor:

Bloody Channel 7 news, they waste a minute every bulletin with an astrology report.

Trevor:

Did you know that?

Trevor:

You're joking.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

Somewhere about 15 minutes in before they go to a commercial break, Um, they run

Trevor:

through the astrology, you know, whether you're a Virgo or Aquarius or Cancer

Trevor:

and what's your, uh, what's your, how's your day shaping up for the next day?

Trevor:

For

Scott:

God's

Trevor:

sake.

Trevor:

Yeah, so, um, uh, so, oh, um, what does it say here?

Trevor:

So by your logic, Trevor, Gaza should surrender and move out.

Trevor:

Do you know what?

Trevor:

If Israel was offering a ceasefire at the halfway point down Gaza, or something

Trevor:

like, if, if, if, if Israel said, alright, we're going to take the top 10 percent

Trevor:

of Gaza, and you guys don't get, um, um, um, you know, you guys can have the rest.

Trevor:

Yes, Gaza, the Palestinians should accept the ceasefire, but you know

Trevor:

what, there is no fucking ceasefire possible because it's, it's just,

Trevor:

it's not a war, it's a massacre.

Trevor:

This is not, um, two even sides.

Trevor:

But yes, John, if Israel said to the Palestinians, uh, we're willing to

Trevor:

do a ceasefire, we're going to take this top strip here and we'll stop.

Trevor:

And Sure.

Trevor:

Do we trust the Israelis?

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

Are they likely to come back in five years time or 10 years time and grab more?

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

But if it would actually stop them temporarily for a few years while you

Trevor:

gather yourself together, then yes, John, that is what they should do.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

Um, Murray says, speaking of wasting time, using half the news to report

Trevor:

on sport is uniquely Australian.

Trevor:

It's a waste of time.

Trevor:

Ah, well, it's not quite an half.

Trevor:

Is it?

Joe:

I don't know, it seemed like an awful lot in the UK,

Trevor:

but

Joe:

it's been a long time and I really don't remember.

Trevor:

Yeah, so, um, Oh.

Trevor:

What should they be showing?

Trevor:

Well, here is a five minute montage of what should be shown.

Joe:

You're gonna get us banned from YouTube.

Trevor:

Yeah, I am, aren't I?

Trevor:

I can't do it, can I?

Trevor:

I will be banned.

Trevor:

It'll be a pain in the butt.

Trevor:

Mm hmm.

Joe:

Mm hmm.

Joe:

You could.

Joe:

All right.

Joe:

Patrons will get it.

Joe:

You could.

Joe:

Well, otherwise you could post links to Twitter feeds.

Trevor:

Mm.

Trevor:

I'll put it up for the patrons.

Trevor:

It'll go privately to them.

Joe:

You can usually email me that privately.

Joe:

You can share it in the Discord as well.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Uh, true.

Trevor:

It just appalls me that I pick up the Courier mail.

Trevor:

And all sorts of crap is in there and not a single mention of the latest atrocity.

Joe:

Oh, youth crime.

Joe:

It's a big problem.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Union bullies.

Joe:

Maybe.

Joe:

Maybe the Garzons are all young and causing crime and that's

Joe:

why the Israelis invaded.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Essential interpretive dance.

Trevor:

Uh, We haven't spoken about subs for a while.

Trevor:

This one's safe.

Trevor:

Yeah.

Trevor:

Let's change topics, actually.

Trevor:

Do I have, before I move off guards, is there anything I can say?

Trevor:

Uh, oh, yes.

Trevor:

No, I want to do the whole thing.

Trevor:

I'm going to do a separate one just for the patrons.

Joe:

Okay.

Trevor:

Which is, which is also then going to talk about how much

Trevor:

people who worked for the, Unit 8200.

Trevor:

Oh yeah.

Trevor:

Is Israel's largest, um, and most controversial spying organisation.

Trevor:

So, there's a number of people who used to work for that organisation, who are

Trevor:

now in positions in the media in the US, like producers at CNN and stuff like that.

Trevor:

And then there's various Israeli lobbying firms where people used to work for.

Trevor:

those groups and now have powerful positions again with New York Times

Trevor:

and various other media outlets.

Trevor:

As an explanation of why these events are not being shown in mainstream

Trevor:

media is that there's a lot of, uh, pro Israeli people in positions of power.

Trevor:

We talked right at the beginning of the show about Cultural Marxism and the

Trevor:

takeover of institutions, and certainly on the Israeli side, there's been

Trevor:

a successful effort in that regard.

Trevor:

Right, but that will have to be something quite separate, I

Trevor:

think, to do justice to all that.

Trevor:

Um, Malcolm, how long have we got?

Trevor:

8.

Trevor:

30 full, we're already over time and Scott's got to go to bed.

Trevor:

Um, a quick, a quick one on subs.

Malcolm:

This is the genius deal.

Malcolm:

that our government has done.

Malcolm:

We've agreed to send billions of dollars to the Americans to help them

Malcolm:

improve their shipbuilding industry.

Malcolm:

They've, they've agreed to sell us several Virginia class submarines in the 2030s,

Malcolm:

but they've done so with the express proviso in the deal and in the legislation

Malcolm:

that no submarine can be sold to Australia unless the President certifies

Malcolm:

its sale, its transfer out of the U.

Malcolm:

S.

Malcolm:

Navy.

Malcolm:

would not diminish the underwater capabilities of the US Navy.

Malcolm:

In other words, that they can spare it.

Malcolm:

They're already 17 Virginia class submarines short of

Malcolm:

what they believe they need.

Malcolm:

They should be producing at least two a year.

Malcolm:

They're producing between 1.

Malcolm:

2 and 1.

Malcolm:

3.

Malcolm:

And to have any hope of providing Australia with submarines,

Malcolm:

they've got to up that to over 2.

Malcolm:

33.

Malcolm:

Maybe it all can be done.

Malcolm:

But we'll have very little influence on it.

Malcolm:

And unless it is, there is literally zero prospect of an

Malcolm:

American President certifying.

Malcolm:

In Washington, what is being widely canvassed, and openly, is the outcome

Malcolm:

where Australia gets no submarines at all.

Malcolm:

When the Americans turn around and say, we can't spare the subs, you're

Malcolm:

not getting any subs, we can't say you've double crossed us, or you've

Malcolm:

done the wrong thing, because if anyone was stupid enough to say that

Malcolm:

in Australia, I don't think we could.

Malcolm:

They'd just say, look, read it.

Malcolm:

It's up there, you know, in, in, in capitals.

Malcolm:

How anybody would think this was a smart deal to do is.

Trevor:

Not only is it ridiculously expensive for the

Trevor:

ridiculously wrong submarine, it's just never going to happen.

Trevor:

We need to have a little sweep on, on when will the Orcus deal be canceled?

Trevor:

What year will it happen?

Trevor:

Who will do it and just Well, Trump might do it.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

Good point.

Trevor:

Trump might do it,

Joe:

uh, if, if he doesn't realize what a good deal it is for them, yes.

Joe:

But yeah, we, we are good at paying the American government money anyway.

Trevor:

Mm-Hmm.

Joe:

Because you, you know, when we lowered our, uh, company tax

Trevor:

Mm-Hmm.

Trevor:

, Joe: uh, America basically has a deal that if an American company pays less.

Trevor:

than the American rate of company tax, then the company

Trevor:

pays the difference in America.

Trevor:

Yes.

Joe:

So we're, all the American companies that trade in Australia at a lower rate,

Joe:

we're basically giving them our tax money.

Trevor:

Yes.

Joe:

So, so Australia's used to paying the US government money.

Trevor:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor:

So, yeah, yeah.

Trevor:

So, um, a complete disaster.

Joe:

Murray did point out the good news that, um, the Onion have bought InfoWars.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

Yes.

Joe:

Yeah,

Scott:

that was really good.

Joe:

Alex Jones, who was found guilty of lying, basically, libeling families

Joe:

and has to give over one and a half billion dollars worth of assets.

Joe:

Basically all of his IP and the website, I think, are now owned by

Joe:

the Onion, who are going to take it over as a spoof silly site.

Joe:

But we'll also be doing something about gun deaths, gun violence.

Scott:

My understanding is they're going to be doing it basically as a,

Scott:

uh, sarcastic look at the world and that sort of stuff, but they're also

Scott:

going to be finishing it off with a very serious report on gun deaths

Scott:

and violence and that type of thing.

Scott:

It's probably the best thing that could have happened to

Trevor:

it.

Trevor:

Well, we need to call it a day.

Trevor:

I need to scurry off and find some military strategy books about

Trevor:

Examples of giving in, in wars and battles, living to fight another day.

Trevor:

The only way you're

Scott:

actually going to find that is if you've got an unconditional surrender.

Trevor:

And, um,

Scott:

I'm

Trevor:

sure there are some good Italian books on it.

Trevor:

And I'll just, uh, yeah, I'll just, I'll just, and, uh, Yeah,

Trevor:

and does Italy still exist?

Trevor:

Yeah, it does.

Trevor:

Funny, that.

Trevor:

So, um, yeah,

Joe:

so.

Joe:

We didn't discuss Alan Jones.

Trevor:

No.

Trevor:

Quite dangerous to do that, Murray, I would have thought.

Trevor:

Because everyone is presumed innocent.

Trevor:

He's been charged with some sort of sexual

Scott:

He's been charged with sexual assault and allegedly one of the

Scott:

youngest victims is 17 years old.

Scott:

Okay, I

Joe:

was about to say I thought it was all adults, but because

Joe:

there was nothing in the reports that I read that said otherwise.

Trevor:

Yeah, but we're going to steer clear of that one.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Wait for the, uh We'll

Scott:

wait until the outcome of the trial.

Scott:

Wait for the court case to blow over.

Trevor:

Yes.

Trevor:

That's it, yeah.

Trevor:

Right.

Trevor:

Okay.

Trevor:

Well, we'll be back next week to argue some more.

Trevor:

Thanks for joining in the chat room, you're fantastic tonight.

Trevor:

Talk to you all next week, bye for now.

Scott:

And it's a good night from me.

Scott:

And it's a good night from him.

Scott:

Good night.

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The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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