Episode 308 - A debrief of the satanic court case.

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Well, dear listener.

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Welcome.

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This is the iron fist and the velvet glove podcast.

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It's a podcast where we talk about news and politics and sex and religion.

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Normally there's a panel there's normally at least more than just me.

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Actually.

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I've got Joe, the tech guy he's there in the background.

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So Joe will help out if need vain.

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Well, today was the big day , we had our cold case now application

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for religious instruction lessons.

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And so that was today.

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And look, if I seem a bit fuzzy and hazy, it's been a big day

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and I've been talking nonstop.

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So, you know, the court case started at 10 and finished around two.

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We had media outside, lots of interviews with ABC compass.

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Then we had lunch.

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Then it came back here.

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There was more of the ABC compass program here in the studio wanting

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to talk about it, doing an interview.

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And they literally left about five minutes ago.

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And now I'm doing the podcast and tell them all the same stories again.

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But the listening would have been with me on this journey.

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So you need to know what the story is and how it all went.

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. So.

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Short answer is we don't know the decision as yet.

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So the judge has reserved his decision and basically that means he's taken all

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of the submissions and he will take a transcript of what happened and we'll

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go away and have a think about it, read about it, and then come back in a couple

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of weeks or whatever with a decision.

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So short answer is we don't know the, a long answer is how did it go?

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And what do you think?

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It was tough.

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It was tough.

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And then I thought, I have to say, I didn't, I did not.

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It wasn't what I expected.

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So I was hoping to have more, yeah.

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You'll argument where I could get some ideas out, but I'll run you

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through how it sort of panned out and you can get a feel for it.

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So if you're in the chat room, say, hello, that'd be nice to know that

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there are some people there and if you've got questions, throw them in

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there cause I'm happy to deal with them.

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So.

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Really the case kicked off with basically Robin and his cross-examination.

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So I was off to a shaky start cause I just wasn't aware of how documents

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get admitted or read into court.

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So that was an uneasy start for Shula.

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And so Robin was cross-examined and basically a lot of the

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concentration on Robbins affidavit was about what does Robin believe?

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When did he, he said all these comments about not believing in Satan and

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all the places he said it and all the rest of it, which really doesn't

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matter because this is acknowledged.

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So that was, you know, fine.

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But then it got on to comments about Robin's opinion of the temple and

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what the temple actually stood for.

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And so really a lot of the argument.

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I felt were to do with the the other side, the respondent, the government,

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basically trying to paint a picture that our community of members did not have

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a common faith and a common belief and nothing common about them that would

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make them a religious denomination.

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And so that was kind of the thrust of it.

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And, you know, dear listener because of my inexperience, or just a lack

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of knowledge in terms of evidence and court procedure, I was certainly a

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babe in the woods in terms of trying to help Robin out in reexamination.

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I didn't do what a half decent barrister could have done on his ear, probably.

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So that was disappointing, but it is what it is.

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And you can only work with what you've got.

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So.

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After that, it, it then moved into arguments over.

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Essentially what we've got to remember with this case is there's

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essentially two parts to it.

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So we applied for a religious instruction lessons, and the government

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wrote a letter saying, you can't come in and there's not enough of you.

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Some of you don't believe in Satan and Robin started it for political purposes.

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And so there's two parts.

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One is to have that letter overturned, rejected on the basis that there's

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just poor reasons and they need to go back and give us a better letter.

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The second part was just a declaration to say that we are a

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religious denominational society.

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That's entitled to go into the title, go into the schools.

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So the declaration is the key part.

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And so in my verbal submissions at the end of the day, We'd

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lodged written submissions.

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And I was quite happy with our written submissions.

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They sort of cover everything that I wanted to say.

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Yeah.

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And the the verbal, you're just trying to, I guess, well, what I was trying to

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do don't know if you're supposed to be doing this was really try and concentrate

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on things that had been raised and address those because the written arguments

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already there anyway, that was, you know, okay-ish certainly he pulled up a lot.

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I couldn't get into a free flow and say things because I was told what I was

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trying to say was trying to introduce evidence or, or other things like that.

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So I definitely have been through the grinder and got a hard time,

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but let me tell you, and so.

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The second part after that was then the the respondent, the

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government's sort of verbal argument.

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And and, and really their concentration was on trying to show that we had

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not met the criteria of a religion in my argument all along is we

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don't have to be a religion because this particular section says it's

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only necessary to be a, a society.

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You don't have to be a religion.

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I've always maintained that all we need to be is a loose association of

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people with an interest in religion, and that's enough to get us in to schools.

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So so really.

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They they had livable argument and I then get a chance to reply

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to what they've said verbally.

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And that was probably at that point, the only time where I actually managed

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to land a few punches and actually felt, I was able to say some things

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where the judge kind of stopped.

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And maybe obviously, no, I didn't nod and go, I get it.

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Or what, but it was the first sort of first sort of it's a recognition

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that, okay, you've got something there.

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Okay.

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What you've just said, that's that's worth listing up until then.

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I don't think he wanted to listen to anything I had to say, but he kind of

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started to pay attention rod at the death so I can only hang my hat on hoping that.

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Like some Punchdrunk puncher in a boxing match, I've managed to drag

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myself off the canvas and some, I land a miracle punch rod at the end.

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I don't know if that's the case.

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I wouldn't be putting money on it.

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I don't know what's going to happen.

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I really, you know, because of my lack of skill as a, in that sort of advocacy

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as a barrister, wasn't able to get in the evidence that I would like to have.

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But in any event just to give you a sort of an example of how I, my really ah, I

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don't know whether to get into the dry legal argument with you about, about it.

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Do you, are you in the chat room?

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Do you want the sort of, bit of the legal Lees involved in all

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this or not like, tell me because I'm starting to get delirious.

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Like I have literally been talking nonstop all day and

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haven't been sleeping well, so.

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Running on fumes here, but Jerry you're in the tech room, Joe.

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Are you wanting to hear some of, do you want to hear my best punch?

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I'll tell you, I'll tell you my best punch.

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Okay.

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So the, the overwhelming argument or the overwhelming responses?

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Yes, please.

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Okay.

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All right.

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So that's good.

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So I had, I had in my submissions basically said, stop talking

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about the Scientology case and all of its requirements.

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We're not trying to prove we're a religion.

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We're just a religious society.

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So all those tests are irrelevant.

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It doesn't matter what Robyn believes.

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It doesn't matter what the adherence or the members of the temple belief and a

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member of a society can be a corporate body who is incapable of having a belief.

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So so really it's a mistake to keep talking about religious belief.

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And in fact, the Scientology case itself was a mistake about religion

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in the sense the payroll commissioner objected and the particular section

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talked about a religious institution would be exempt from payroll tax.

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And so the keywords were religious institution and in Scientology case, the.

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Barristers and lawyers for the relevant parties had made this side agreement that

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if Scientology is a religion, then they accept it is a religious institution.

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And the, the the high court in Scientology said, look, we're not

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really that happy with that argument.

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That just because it's a religion, it's a religious institution.

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They're different things, but we've come this far.

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And we really want to tell people what we think of religion is

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that we'll just do it anyway.

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So, so the Scientology case gets bogged down in, in the whole

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concept of what is a religion.

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When the actual question should have been, what's a religious institution.

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And I got to make the point that what the counsel for the government was

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doing and what had been happening in the case all along was that.

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Though, arguing over matters that went to whether the temple was a religion,

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not whether it was a religious society.

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So like finally sort of managed to Dodge enough rules of evidence

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that I could get that in.

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And so that was good.

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I was able to say it.

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And then in mice admissions, I had said, look, what does a religious society mean?

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And I had said, well, let's look at what religious means and

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let's look at what society means and let's put the two together.

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And, and what I had said was that a something that is religious just

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has to be let me just find it here.

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Relating to, or concerned with religion imbued with, or exhibiting religion

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as a definition of religious from the Macquarie dictionary, which

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is commonly used in core rings.

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And in terms of society, I had said that society means that organization of

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persons associated together for religious or other purposes, a body of persons

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associated by their calling or interests.

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So I said, if he put the two of them together, you basically get

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a religious society is meaning a group of people with a common

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interest that relates to religion.

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So that was how I was describing.

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And I was saying, well, look all these hurdles that you want the

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temple to jump through to be yet chip or a religion dine apply.

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All we have to do is say that we are.

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Group of people with a common interest that relates to religion.

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And the opposing counsel said, well, there's rules of construction.

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That mean you're not really allowed to take separate words rather than

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meaning joined them back up again.

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You've got to look at words as they are together and derive a meaning

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from that rather than splitting them up and then joining them up again.

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So but what I was able to then say was there was a case the theosophy

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foundation case, which was one of the few cases that actually looked

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at what is a religious society.

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And I was able to draw the court's attention to where it says a society

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in the relevant sense is a number of persons associated together by

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some common interest or purpose.

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Society, as that's described in which the common element pertains to, or is

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concerned with religion may actually be described as a religious society.

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So I said, you might've liked how I did it with a dictionary definition, but I

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essentially arrived at the same definition that they got to in the theosophy case.

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And that sort of landed a blind.

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That was good.

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That's the first shot that got really in there somewhere.

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And then there was problems of whether we had the evidence to demonstrate this,

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but we had the application that said we wanted to go in and teach religion.

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And we had three families who said they wanted to receive religion.

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So right at the death, there was a, quite a few good points and, and

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who knows what the decision will be.

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It's interesting because well, I'll tell you one other thing that

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happened, which was quite interesting and you'll, you will find this funny

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and I'm not allowed to find it funny.

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I don't think, but during the proceeding, the barrister for the government was

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talking to Robin and about when Robin was wearing his robes and standing outside

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of school, trying to drum up business for the religious instruction lessons, he

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would have seen the photographs of it, and it might be apparent on the transcript,

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but there was kind of a time to it.

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That was a little, just a little bit disparaging in terms

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of Robin and his black robes.

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I felt that maybe he didn't intend that maybe he didn't think that at all.

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And, and And, you know, I don't want to insult him in any way in suggesting that

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he was doing that when he wasn't, but it was something that it was possible to take

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a little bit of that meaning a little bit of that vibe Promet so he said to Robin

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and you were there, you know, in your black robes and, and Robin said yes, much

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like the ones you're wearing right now.

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And at that point, the judge said Mr.

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Bristow, we will not have that sort of behavior in this courtroom and,

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and reprimanded him for that comment.

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So that was an interesting moment in the proceedings.

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And were there any other highlights or other arguments?

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Yeah, it's pretty rough.

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I don't don't know it's I wouldn't be putting any money on us.

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I really don't know.

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It was hard to read the judge from my point of view.

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He didn't St petite, particularly happy with us until, as I said, rod at the

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end, where there was a glimmer of light.

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So anyway, it's up to him and he'll make his decision and we'll have to accept it.

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And so, I don't know, week, two weeks, I don't know how long it normally takes.

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You'll be the first to know when we've got the answer.

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It was quite an adventure.

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It's been a, I'm glad that it's over and done with, I could not have

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mentally handled an, a German or anything cause I needed to get this

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case done and out of my hand, so I can sleep at night and not wake up at

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two in the morning, thinking arguments about religion and society over that.

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So so the, actually the the barista for the government made an interesting

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allegation at one point, he, he said to He, he said to Robin, that Robin's

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purpose by conducting satanic instruction lessons was to, he had a purpose

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of disrupting classrooms around it.

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Yes, he had.

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And he was really doing it in a manner that was disapproving,

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that, that Robin was by his actions seeking to disrupt classrooms.

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And they conduct by having the satanic lessons that would then

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disrupt the rest of the class.

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And, you know, it's, it's so ironic if that's the word, but what we're

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actually trying to do is prevent that happening in thousands of instances

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that is already happening in the state every week to be accused of.

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Of disrupting classes.

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When in fact, what Robin is trying to do is reduce exactly that disruption, but

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in thousands of cases, so he's willing to cause two or three instances offered

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in the event that it might actually stop it happening thousands of times.

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And so that was an interesting admission by the government's barrister that the

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religious instruction classes are actually disruptive to the rest of the class.

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So that can come out.

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And the idea out in, in different venues at are at light Aton

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that even the government thinks religious instruction is disruptive.

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So so that was one of the few highlights in a pretty dark day.

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At times it really was rough.

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It was quite grueling.

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I ah, at this stage, sometimes you might see in the chat.

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Yeah.

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Tom, the warehouse guy, and Tom is a young lawyer who's currently completing,

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or he's done his degree and there's some sort of professional graduate

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be that you study that you do before you can actually fully practice.

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And Tom, the warehouse guy sat by my side of the bar table and

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he was of great help and comfort.

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So he was helping me and he goes, we'll say this, you end up getting

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inundated with 70 Pipers thrown at you and all the rest of it.

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So really appreciate what you had there in helping me, Tom.

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And that was good.

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And, and I said to Tom, well, he hopes to become a criminal law.

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And I said, great, because we really need a local barrister in the secular movement.

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He does he's on hand.

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And you know, next time we run a case, I'll sit at the back and Tom can run it.

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So that's my aim at the moment.

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We've got to keep Tom the warehouse guy happy.

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Okay.

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If you ever see him in the chat room, Because he, he, he could be a

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great asset for us, the other track.

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So that was that Queensland parents for secular state schools was

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down in the back taking nights.

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Alison was there what else were the highlights, Alison, that

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you can think of from there?

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Plenty of low lights, but if you could concentrate on a

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highlight, that would be good.

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Your knives at the end of the day.

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You'd never know.

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I haven't been involved in other cases, particularly with my wife's

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family, where it seemed really bad at first, but actually in the cold

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light of day, it wasn't so bad.

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So we will, we will see fingers crossed hello in the chat room to

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everybody Julia's commenting lots.

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Allison's they?

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Matthew, thank you.

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You're welcomed.

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Provide some questions because I can deal with those.

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All right.

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What else can I talk about that happened?

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Oh, well, other things that have happened.

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So the ABC news crew was out the front afterwards.

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So, and I had some messages from some people saying that we

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appeared on the ABC news tonight.

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So check out the ABC catch-up Eyeview if you want to see us on

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that, hopefully we came across it.

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Okay.

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Has anyone seen it?

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Can you tell me if it seemed okay.

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Basically did extended interview with them with the compass program had

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been following us for quite a while.

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I mean, the word journey gets overused a little bit, but they've

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been with us for over a year now.

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So they did another extended interview there, and then they came

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to my house and interviewed me here.

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So so yeah, so that was that.

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Where did we go to from here?

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What's going to happen down the track.

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Let me take a sip of beer.

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Yeah.

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Let's assume we lose then what happens?

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Well what happens if we lose the government?

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I think knows that has a problem with that section.

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We flagged in our interviews.

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Hopefully the ABC shouted.

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I'm not sure, but we've tried to flag in the interviews that if we do lose.

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We will come back again in a couple years time.

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So whatever it is, you know, our members weren't faithful enough.

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We didn't have evidence of some commitment or ritual or enough of them

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or whatever shortcomings we might've had.

Speaker: 00:21:09

We can address over the next couple of years.

Speaker: 00:21:12

And let's one of the things we're going to do is at some stage

Speaker: 00:21:15

tomorrow is I'm just going to sit down and write a list of everything.

Speaker: 00:21:18

I would have liked to have been able to hand up as evidence.

Speaker: 00:21:22

And we'll just get that evidence over the next couple of years.

Speaker: 00:21:25

So we're sort of letting the government know that that's what

Speaker: 00:21:30

we're going to do if we lose.

Speaker: 00:21:32

So you ma you might as well not relax if you happen to win.

Speaker: 00:21:39

The other things that came out of it were that there were real problems

Speaker: 00:21:44

with the section in the way that.

Speaker: 00:21:47

Authority was delegated to the principals and the why that the policy statement

Speaker: 00:21:52

and the regulations had been, I don't know, fashioned out of this act.

Speaker: 00:22:00

And I didn't understand fully the argument, Alison ye might.

Speaker: 00:22:06

And you're welcome to chime in here.

Speaker: 00:22:10

I can give you a link and you can join me if you're interested, if you're able to.

Speaker: 00:22:13

I don't know, but the certainly seem to be technical difficulties with the section.

Speaker: 00:22:17

There are things about it that people found quite unusual, and

Speaker: 00:22:20

this whole idea that you just, as a variety can enter school without

Speaker: 00:22:24

really an application as such.

Speaker: 00:22:28

It doesn't require a dis it's sort of obscure in the

Speaker: 00:22:30

way of requiring a decision.

Speaker: 00:22:32

It's not the way that these sections are commonly done.

Speaker: 00:22:35

So it seems like.

Speaker: 00:22:38

There's some legally technical problems with the section that

Speaker: 00:22:42

would motivate a well-meaning legislature to fix it up anyway.

Speaker: 00:22:46

So there is that issue there that is ticking away.

Speaker: 00:22:49

So our continued presence, the problem with the section and its end

Speaker: 00:22:54

its problems with its delegation of authority fact that these might be

Speaker: 00:23:00

challenged again by somebody else.

Speaker: 00:23:02

So these are things that might cause them to actually do something.

Speaker: 00:23:08

We'll see.

Speaker: 00:23:09

So government Alison made the point that the, the government

Speaker: 00:23:12

did not object to Satanism.

Speaker: 00:23:15

It just said about the Noosa temple of seitan as a religious

Speaker: 00:23:19

denomination or society.

Speaker: 00:23:21

So so it doesn't mean there can be no, the satanic RI it's just finding a group who.

Speaker: 00:23:27

Meets the section in order to deliver it.

Speaker: 00:23:30

So so yeah, and Alison, who was in the back watching she says that she'd like

Speaker: 00:23:35

to see a transcript to look at the issues of delegation and, and certainly Alison,

Speaker: 00:23:39

we need to, or, well, we're going to on, and I know you have in the past, look

Speaker: 00:23:45

at the section, says the whole point is let's, we're going to allow ministers of

Speaker: 00:23:53

religion or societies to come in and teach religion to members of their denomination.

Speaker: 00:23:59

It's quite specific in that yet in the regulations and in the policy

Speaker: 00:24:05

statement, they've created this system of multi-faith delivery, where one

Speaker: 00:24:10

minister or accredited representative can teach to multiple kids of different

Speaker: 00:24:17

faiths because it's easier for them.

Speaker: 00:24:21

So.

Speaker: 00:24:22

That that's that that's really, it should be not possible under the section.

Speaker: 00:24:28

So Hey, and a whole bunch of problems with that section beyond just

Speaker: 00:24:31

the fact that sigmas can use it.

Speaker: 00:24:33

So that's, if we lose, there'll be a motivation to fix it anyway.

Speaker: 00:24:38

Maybe not super quick, but on the agenda, if we win, what will the government do?

Speaker: 00:24:45

You're all wondering aren't you?

Speaker: 00:24:51

And we know that the government has considered several several scenarios.

Speaker: 00:24:58

So in our right to information documents that we gathered from the government, it

Speaker: 00:25:04

actually said three different scenarios.

Speaker: 00:25:08

There actually four, I can't remember the fourth on what to do

Speaker: 00:25:12

in the event that the template, the Nissen of site, and actually we.

Speaker: 00:25:17

And one of the scenarios was just tell principals not to let them

Speaker: 00:25:21

in any way seriously, one of the scenarios, and then beneath that it

Speaker: 00:25:28

was the problems with that are it's illegal and other things like that.

Speaker: 00:25:33

So that was one of the possible scenarios that they were con they were war gaming.

Speaker: 00:25:38

Another one was changed the act to exclude just a small number

Speaker: 00:25:42

of specific pariah religions.

Speaker: 00:25:44

So you say like, right, the act and say, all religions can come in except

Speaker: 00:25:48

for Satanists and Wiccans and a couple of others perhaps, but yeah, as a sort

Speaker: 00:25:53

of a specific exclusion of unsavory religions was one of the other options.

Speaker: 00:25:58

So so yeah, that's, that's, you know, in one of the options of course was we'll

Speaker: 00:26:06

just let him in, but I can't remember what the fourth one was, but anyway,

Speaker: 00:26:11

quite extraordinary, really that you would consider one of your options is

Speaker: 00:26:14

just tell principals not to let them in.

Speaker: 00:26:15

Anyway, oh, dear.

Speaker: 00:26:18

In the chat room Alison says that Queensland pants for secular state

Speaker: 00:26:22

schools have legal advice from a QC, that there was a big problem with how

Speaker: 00:26:26

students are allocated to religious instruction under these agreements.

Speaker: 00:26:30

So there we go.

Speaker: 00:26:30

It just doesn't make sense when you've gone to the effort of saying kids

Speaker: 00:26:33

can't be taught by other denominations because look, let's go back in history.

Speaker: 00:26:38

It was all about Catholics, not wanting Protestant teachers to be teaching

Speaker: 00:26:43

to Catholics and, and vice versa.

Speaker: 00:26:45

There was this intense rivalry between Protestants and Catholics

Speaker: 00:26:50

in our early days as a colony.

Speaker: 00:26:52

And so they're very keen to make sure that there would be no cross-contamination.

Speaker: 00:26:58

And the ag sections really quite plain about that.

Speaker: 00:27:01

And at the end of the day they've got this regulation and this policy that

Speaker: 00:27:06

says they land multi-faith agreements because it was easy for the providers

Speaker: 00:27:13

to love a whole bunch of kids together.

Speaker: 00:27:15

Teach 10 kids, not just two, I would think.

Speaker: 00:27:21

Right.

Speaker: 00:27:22

So so that was what would happen there?

Speaker: 00:27:27

And Joe, can you think of any questions or things that you're

Speaker: 00:27:30

interested in that I haven't covered?

Speaker: 00:27:33

Because on starting to Rob, we likely to find a helpful barrister,

Speaker: 00:27:39

a friendly barrister, given that we've made an attempt now.

Speaker: 00:27:44

Look, we were offered help by barristers.

Speaker: 00:27:47

So this is a good point to rise, Joe, because as I said, there were

Speaker: 00:27:54

two parts to this application.

Speaker: 00:27:55

One was the, the rejection of the letter, basically saying things

Speaker: 00:28:00

like they had no evidence about belief in seitan had no evidence

Speaker: 00:28:06

of our numbers, of our membership.

Speaker: 00:28:08

They, the, the political origins of the group are irrelevant.

Speaker: 00:28:16

So these are all as a matter of administrative law, invalid

Speaker: 00:28:22

reasons to make a decision.

Speaker: 00:28:24

So what normally happens is you in that situation, if you're successful, if the

Speaker: 00:28:30

court says, yes, the decision was flawed in its reasoning, the decision goes back

Speaker: 00:28:37

to the department and they told them.

Speaker: 00:28:39

Make the decision again.

Speaker: 00:28:42

So they obviously can't make the same mistakes, but they might make some other

Speaker: 00:28:46

ones, but all the court does is basically send it back to the original decision

Speaker: 00:28:51

maker and say, we'll let it didn't work.

Speaker: 00:28:53

Try again.

Speaker: 00:28:55

The other part of the application was a declaration that the new set template site

Speaker: 00:29:01

design religious denominational society.

Speaker: 00:29:04

And, and for me, the key to that was this whole religious society argument as our

Speaker: 00:29:10

best shot and spent a lot of time on it.

Speaker: 00:29:13

So we did get some help from some barristers and I'm really grateful for

Speaker: 00:29:15

it, but they concentrated on the th the letter and, and rejecting the letter.

Speaker: 00:29:25

And I felt I didn't concentrate enough on the declaration.

Speaker: 00:29:31

And if I had just relied on their submissions, I feel there wasn't nearly

Speaker: 00:29:36

enough commentary about the declaration.

Speaker: 00:29:40

Now they disagreed with me and said they thought they had.

Speaker: 00:29:45

And, and what it came down to though was in terms of

Speaker: 00:29:49

availability, they the particular barrister could not do it today.

Speaker: 00:29:54

He's for start down south and they were in lockdown and, but he's also busy,

Speaker: 00:29:59

so it would have required getting into Jim and, and then doing stuff by remote

Speaker: 00:30:04

distance, zoom phone call, basically.

Speaker: 00:30:08

And I just say, I consulted with people about this.

Speaker: 00:30:14

I consulted with barista and legal friends about this conundrum about do I.

Speaker: 00:30:21

It was more about if we were to go back to court, you said you felt that you under

Speaker: 00:30:27

pressure and with the rules of evidence.

Speaker: 00:30:31

Yes.

Speaker: 00:30:31

Particularly Abel absolutely having someone on the side, not necessarily

Speaker: 00:30:37

to put the case together, but to be there to argue absolutely.

Speaker: 00:30:41

On the spot.

Speaker: 00:30:42

Absolutely.

Speaker: 00:30:43

Definitely.

Speaker: 00:30:44

Somebody yes, in two years time when we go back absolutely going to have

Speaker: 00:30:48

a barista there, not me, for sure.

Speaker: 00:30:51

But in the current circumstances, the, the ideal barrister for me

Speaker: 00:30:57

would have been local, who was able to do it to die and not adjourn it.

Speaker: 00:31:04

And who really liked the society, declaration argument.

Speaker: 00:31:09

Because that's the important part to me and I, I the virus has

Speaker: 00:31:15

suggested I get an adjournment so that they could be involved.

Speaker: 00:31:19

It was going to be really light in proceedings to ask for an adjournment.

Speaker: 00:31:24

I'd received advice from other barristers to say, if you asked for an, a Jim and

Speaker: 00:31:27

Dow, that's going to be a really bad look and you might not even get it.

Speaker: 00:31:30

This is a really light request.

Speaker: 00:31:32

So so yeah, it, it, while I appreciated their advice and the Digicel review

Speaker: 00:31:38

questions, I just wasn't in sync with them on the declaration.

Speaker: 00:31:43

And I know they feel a different opinion.

Speaker: 00:31:45

They are a bit of fronted the front and I just disagreed that.

Speaker: 00:31:50

I'd sort of said, no on I'm going to do it myself.

Speaker: 00:31:53

If I have to get this thing done, Yeah.

Speaker: 00:31:56

The ideal thing would have been a barrister who had a love for the

Speaker: 00:31:59

declaration and my society argument that would have been really, really handy.

Speaker: 00:32:04

So these are all things that we can work on.

Speaker: 00:32:07

And maybe next time we have a crack at something you can't be perfect.

Speaker: 00:32:12

Can you?

Speaker: 00:32:14

And now I actually consult with people, several people to say, look, I don't

Speaker: 00:32:20

want to be egotistical about this.

Speaker: 00:32:22

I don't recognize that this is done on behalf of the secular community.

Speaker: 00:32:27

This is the battle we've all been fighting and I'm just the lightest,

Speaker: 00:32:32

a warrior in a long line of people.

Speaker: 00:32:34

Who've had a crack at this.

Speaker: 00:32:35

So I recognize it's just not me.

Speaker: 00:32:37

And I didn't specifically ask them, am I being egotistical or whatever?

Speaker: 00:32:41

What are you.

Speaker: 00:32:42

Shall I do this myself on the die and just go for it.

Speaker: 00:32:45

And I all said, yes.

Speaker: 00:32:48

So, and that's what I felt comfortable with.

Speaker: 00:32:50

And you know, it mentally, I don't think I'm up for, I would have been up for the

Speaker: 00:32:56

gentlemen, like I'm my mind is frazzled.

Speaker: 00:32:59

Now I've been at this for too long.

Speaker: 00:33:03

And if I had to have gone from the gym and put off for another month or two or

Speaker: 00:33:08

three or whatever not good, say whole host of reasons that interplay into things.

Speaker: 00:33:14

And that's where we've ended up where we've ended up.

Speaker: 00:33:17

So, yeah.

Speaker: 00:33:18

So can handle, so in terms of media interest, obviously the

Speaker: 00:33:23

RTI has revealed some interest.

Speaker: 00:33:25

Discussions internally.

Speaker: 00:33:27

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:33:27

Did that go up on Facebook today or something, or is that what I didn't

Speaker: 00:33:31

even, I haven't even seen the Temple's face besides today, so I shouldn't.

Speaker: 00:33:36

So there was a post about the hypocrisy of the ACL.

Speaker: 00:33:40

Yes.

Speaker: 00:33:41

Allegedly asking for religious freedom and then writing to the minister, demanding

Speaker: 00:33:45

that certain religions not be allowed.

Speaker: 00:33:48

Okay.

Speaker: 00:33:48

And I took a screenshot from the RTI, which is available

Speaker: 00:33:52

on the department's website.

Speaker: 00:33:54

Yes.

Speaker: 00:33:55

So it's public information.

Speaker: 00:33:56

And it has been redacted because it's public information

Speaker: 00:34:00

and Facebook took that down.

Speaker: 00:34:02

What had been reported to them as spam, both the link and the screenshot of

Speaker: 00:34:08

the ACL letter had been taken down.

Speaker: 00:34:11

I think it was maliciously reported.

Speaker: 00:34:12

I posted as a reply to the post on the Facebook page on who's on the news.

Speaker: 00:34:19

Yep.

Speaker: 00:34:22

So I've got a Facebook strike.

Speaker: 00:34:24

You're kidding.

Speaker: 00:34:26

Because I posted the link to the RTI document.

Speaker: 00:34:29

That is a public because it's a public document, but somebody

Speaker: 00:34:33

maliciously reported it, I believe.

Speaker: 00:34:35

Wow.

Speaker: 00:34:37

I think there are certain groups who don't want the hypocrisy shown.

Speaker: 00:34:40

Wow.

Speaker: 00:34:42

Is that right?

Speaker: 00:34:44

Yes.

Speaker: 00:34:45

And do you put that link in the messages?

Speaker: 00:34:47

Did you in the chat?

Speaker: 00:34:49

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:50

So I have a look for the product.

Speaker: 00:34:51

Again, Jeff people who've sort of might've scrolled past the screen or whatever.

Speaker: 00:34:55

Put up again as a link to the yeah, so, wow.

Speaker: 00:35:03

Otherwise, if you just Google Queensland education RTI you'll find the very

Speaker: 00:35:08

first hit is the disclosure logs.

Speaker: 00:35:11

You go into 2021, just search for Satan.

Speaker: 00:35:14

And it's on that page.

Speaker: 00:35:16

Well, you might, you can see the link there.

Speaker: 00:35:19

Wow.

Speaker: 00:35:20

I'll I'll turn it into a QR code and we'll have it up on the next podcast.

Speaker: 00:35:24

Okay.

Speaker: 00:35:24

Aura.

Speaker: 00:35:25

Wow.

Speaker: 00:35:26

There we go.

Speaker: 00:35:27

So, so that's a link to a document we retrieved under right.

Speaker: 00:35:31

To information.

Speaker: 00:35:32

It's a public document and you put a simple link to

Speaker: 00:35:36

that without any commentary.

Speaker: 00:35:37

Was there a comment or I posted, I posted no, no.

Speaker: 00:35:41

I posted the screenshot that was referred to in the temple post.

Speaker: 00:35:45

So it was, here's a letter from the ACL.

Speaker: 00:35:48

It shows what hypocrites they are.

Speaker: 00:35:50

So I took a screenshot of that, posted the photograph and then put a link to

Speaker: 00:35:55

the document and said, it's publicly.

Speaker: 00:35:57

Wow.

Speaker: 00:35:59

And God damn Facebook, just, just, here's a message.

Speaker: 00:36:03

And then just clearly didn't look at it.

Speaker: 00:36:05

If, if enough people reported bots will take it down.

Speaker: 00:36:09

So Christian,

Speaker: 00:36:14

right?

Speaker: 00:36:14

So I've appealed it, but they say we're, we're flooded at the moment

Speaker: 00:36:18

with all the COVID fake news.

Speaker: 00:36:20

There's very little chance.

Speaker: 00:36:20

We'll actually get to look at your wow.

Speaker: 00:36:25

Wow.

Speaker: 00:36:26

Okay.

Speaker: 00:36:27

I'm just trying to see if I can get, I'm just trying to

Speaker: 00:36:29

get a copy of the link myself.

Speaker: 00:36:31

Can you email, you were sharing on the screen.

Speaker: 00:36:34

Can you share your screen or and we can put up on the screen.

Speaker: 00:36:36

So what the ACR letter?

Speaker: 00:36:38

No, the right to information document the document, the flow

Speaker: 00:36:42

chart, sort of one, is it that one?

Speaker: 00:36:44

It is, yes.

Speaker: 00:36:45

I'm hitting security permissions on the macula.

Speaker: 00:36:47

It doesn't matter.

Speaker: 00:36:48

Okay.

Speaker: 00:36:49

Well, that's interesting.

Speaker: 00:36:50

Isn't it?

Speaker: 00:36:50

So a publicly available, available document and enough, presumably

Speaker: 00:36:56

Christians can complain about it.

Speaker: 00:37:00

It's a QE D dot Queensland, qed.qld.gov dot are you like it's a government.

Speaker: 00:37:08

God damn.

Speaker: 00:37:12

Ah, okay.

Speaker: 00:37:14

All right.

Speaker: 00:37:14

The website, qed.qld.gov dot R use slash about us slash slash disclosure

Speaker: 00:37:23

logs slash 2 1 1 9 5 or seven dot PDF.

Speaker: 00:37:30

That will get you there.

Speaker: 00:37:32

Have a look.

Speaker: 00:37:33

Wow.

Speaker: 00:37:34

Ah, Jody, that's amazing.

Speaker: 00:37:38

Just so enough.

Speaker: 00:37:41

Enough people object to the bots, take it down and it's not back up.

Speaker: 00:37:44

Is that yeah.

Speaker: 00:37:45

You're still in a, you in a purgatory still.

Speaker: 00:37:47

W no, because strike rock I've been told effectively for the

Speaker: 00:37:52

post is not visible to anybody.

Speaker: 00:37:54

Wow.

Speaker: 00:37:56

Wow.

Speaker: 00:37:59

You rascal, Joe, you subversive rebellious as a role in Satanism for you.

Speaker: 00:38:11

Wow.

Speaker: 00:38:14

I'm flabbergasted by that.

Speaker: 00:38:16

And what's good.

Speaker: 00:38:17

Shout is that they worried Jay's thing change.

Speaker: 00:38:21

We are a thorn in their side, much like Satan placed a thorn in the

Speaker: 00:38:25

side of Paul keeping me in line.

Speaker: 00:38:30

Actually I read a really do I want to get into the same?

Speaker: 00:38:33

What other things have I, can I tell you about the case?

Speaker: 00:38:36

Ah, there's a QR code right up there on the screen.

Speaker: 00:38:39

Is that only a screen on that?

Speaker: 00:38:40

Is that, oh yeah, you put that.

Speaker: 00:38:42

That should be good.

Speaker: 00:38:43

That should be shared on the live stream.

Speaker: 00:38:44

There you are.

Speaker: 00:38:46

Everyone knows how to use a QR code now.

Speaker: 00:38:48

So now that's up there.

Speaker: 00:38:49

You can go with that way.

Speaker: 00:38:50

That's easy.

Speaker: 00:38:50

What else do people want to know about is what happened?

Speaker: 00:38:53

Zachary, are you going to do, let me just get rid of that.

Speaker: 00:38:57

You're going to do another, if I request to see any further discussion

Speaker: 00:39:01

about in Ts by the government possible, not just at the moment.

Speaker: 00:39:08

I don't think Julia in response to what you said, Joe, she says that sounds

Speaker: 00:39:13

like a rallying call for everyone to post it in as many places as they can.

Speaker: 00:39:18

Yeah, that everybody, I agree with that one.

Speaker: 00:39:20

J Y V I think is some sort of crazy person who we've probably blocked by now.

Speaker: 00:39:25

Is that right?

Speaker: 00:39:25

I don't know.

Speaker: 00:39:27

He's gone quiet, so, okay.

Speaker: 00:39:29

And let's see, what else is in there?

Speaker: 00:39:31

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:39:32

Message from Tom, right?

Speaker: 00:39:34

Oh, is this guy okay?

Speaker: 00:39:35

Yep.

Speaker: 00:39:35

Tom's message.

Speaker: 00:39:36

Let me get to it.

Speaker: 00:39:37

Well done on a tough day in court have sent you an email with my

Speaker: 00:39:39

thoughts on today in detail.

Speaker: 00:39:41

Yes, I did actually talk about the theosophy case and the

Speaker: 00:39:44

Scientology case earlier, Tom.

Speaker: 00:39:46

So considering that was the only one of the few blows I landed, Tom.

Speaker: 00:39:51

I did actually tell him about that one as, as a highlight.

Speaker: 00:39:56

So good to see that you agree on that.

Speaker: 00:39:58

It's funny.

Speaker: 00:40:01

Yeah, Tom, the warehouse guy full marks.

Speaker: 00:40:04

Let me see, what else can we talk about while we're on this topic?

Speaker: 00:40:08

I actually been reading a lot about Satan lately.

Speaker: 00:40:10

Let me find, let me grab these nighttime sink.

Speaker: 00:40:40

Got a really good book about Satan in the Bible, and it's quite fascinating

Speaker: 00:40:48

how the site and in the Bible.

Speaker: 00:40:52

Is so much on the side of God and he's not an anti-Christ at all.

Speaker: 00:40:57

And the way this guy describes the site in the Bible, he's fascinating.

Speaker: 00:41:05

So interrupt me with any other thoughts that you might have,

Speaker: 00:41:11

what else we got in there?

Speaker: 00:41:12

So Craig, the answer is we haven't got a decision yet we're

Speaker: 00:41:17

Whiting, but it was a tough die.

Speaker: 00:41:19

And some blows landed at the end that were favorable, but he had died and I,

Speaker: 00:41:23

that, I, it wouldn't, didn't go as well as I hoped, let me put it that way.

Speaker: 00:41:27

So it's a really good book.

Speaker: 00:41:29

Like I have a cross site and in the Bible God's minister of justice supply Henry

Speaker: 00:41:34

Kelly, and this guy has gone through the Bible and in its original Hebrew

Speaker: 00:41:41

and then the translations to Greek.

Speaker: 00:41:42

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:41:44

I basically his, his premise is that there is no difference between the presentations

Speaker: 00:41:49

of Satan in the old and new testaments.

Speaker: 00:41:52

He appears as an adversary to humans, but not to God.

Speaker: 00:41:56

Rather he functions on behalf of God in various areas of law enforcement,

Speaker: 00:42:01

including investigation, intervention, accusation, prosecution, and punishment.

Speaker: 00:42:07

According to this author, seitan, as I see him is working for the celestial

Speaker: 00:42:11

government and perhaps the closest analog to his position in the American

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system is the post of attorney general.

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His ultimate goal is on the side of angels to weed out all unworthy

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persons from God's favor, he's deeply suspicious of mortals and

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resorts to tricks to smoke out there.

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Tree characters, the scriptural seitan that you can see in the

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Bible wants to keep bad people out.

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The Satan that we all are familiar with, wants to make good people bad.

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And essentially how it works is that the word seitan in Hebrew is a common

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noun, meaning adversary or opponent.

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So in the book in Hebrew is often references to an adversary, stopped

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this person, or an adversary did this, or an adversary or opponent did that.

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And when it was translated, it became the adversaries.

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So the one person was deemed to be this opponent who on other ratings

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is just multiple different people who takes an opponent of view.

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So the say I seitan became the seitan and still lie when you read it, the role

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of seitan, we've already mentioned the book of job before, but at numerous times

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he's his role is to test people's faith.

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And so he, he tested Joe, he tested the apostles.

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He tested Jesus when Jesus was doing his 40 days fast and he offered him kingdom.

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Cause cause Satan was say suspicious that he didn't even trust Jesus.

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They go, he was just trying to keep the unworthy out.

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And there are a whole range of instances where his role was to tempt people

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and people were really worried about the sight eyesight and tempting them.

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And in fact it all makes sense when you hear the alpha, the prayer.

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And if you read it in the original, it's basically the conclusion

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is, and do not draw us into testing, but deliver us from harm.

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So, what people are really doing is they're praying to God saying,

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stop sending this guy in testing us.

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It's really hard.

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Please don't test us anymore.

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It's that prayer makes sense to me now.

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So so that's a fascinating book, more about that lighter.

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Where are we in terms of the chat room?

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Is there anything that I need to know?

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In the chat room, Craig says Satan is portrayed as an he's portrayed in

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an interesting way in the TV series, Lucifer, as a Punisher of the guilty

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forced to, by God, he specifically doesn't hurt innocence or lie.

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There we go.

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I have to watch that.

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And it seems that Satan is particularly keen on those who seem overtly righteous.

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So Joe was overtly righteous and, and Jesus was suspiciously righteous.

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So they read.

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Rice Satan's suspicion levels, fascinating stuff.

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Ah, I think I'm nearly no, nothing.

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So he drove these, the messages.

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You don't know what that means.

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It's a, it's a joke from star was was it?

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No, no.

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Are not the choice you're looking for real are these are not

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the droids you're looking for.

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Right.

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Okay.

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Why drive in my head on this late time?

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So Lisa for TV series is worth watching.

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Yeah, it's a little simplistic, but it's fun.

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Okay.

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There you go.

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Thanks.

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Just shows, shows Lucifer as a poor misunderstood person

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misrepresented by the Bible.

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It's exactly the case.

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And this is actually, I'm actually starting to get quite keen on giving a

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satanic religious instruction lesson.

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I think it's such a great platform for describing a lot of things.

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So just to kick off with the book of Jonah is, is interesting in terms of

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who is the good guy or the bad guy.

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Oh God.

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Yes.

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Who is the most?

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Assholery in this God with ultimate authority or his henchman Satan,

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who's actually trying to do the right thing or God who is so weak

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that he doesn't actually stand up to Satan and say, Hey, that's too much.

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Let's not go that far.

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And then really you could then look at it in terms of, well, what is good

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and evil and is it independent of God?

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Does it exist?

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It's the whole youth, youth road dilemma you could throw in there.

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And then just the whole, you know, by the time you've explained Satan's role.

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As God's henchman and enforcer and prosecutor and questionnaire and

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opposer he's tough guy is his hired gun.

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It's entirely possible that somebody could be polytheistic and be both Christian

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and satanic, like entirely possible.

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And and really what we've got is the Bible is quite consistent on this end.

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It's only in revelation where it all goes to shit and like what,

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doesn't get a shit in revelation.

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So but I'm till lane, it's all good and drugs.

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Yeah.

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There's something taken there.

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So, so what people have done is they've looked at, you know, revelation,

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for example, had this serpent re Tilian dragon type beast in there,

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and which was declared as a seitan.

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And then people looked at the garden of Eden and saw the snake, right.

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Well, that's just the same thing.

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Isn't it must've been Satan as well.

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Like there's nothing in the book story of the garden of Eden to suggest

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that it's anything other than just a snake and talking snake mind.

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But, but no no, there's nothing there that you could read in isolation and go, aha.

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It is it is obviously a reference to site and it's not at all.

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It's just, that's really long connection has been made between

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this repeal or reptilian, dragon sip and creature in, in revelation.

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And they've gone on, it's just obviously this snake in the Genesis story at right.

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Just so what you've really though, the end God is just a series of,

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of clerics in lighter years who lived on the dirty on seitan.

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And then.

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Red things that weren't there and, and created a picture.

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So it's just an interesting, see, in explaining this in a satanic religious

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education, religious education class, you could really get into some

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interesting topics where you would say well, this is akin to the need

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to look at the source documents.

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And so the fake news.

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Yeah.

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And COVID, and all that we're seeing with reports about, you know, medical

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tests that suggest all sorts of things.

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And if you read a newspaper report about what a medical report says,

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you're applying with fire quite often.

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And if you go to the original source document and read it for

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yourself, then you get the picture.

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And it's a really good.

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Lesson in life, just in the treatment of Satan in the Bible some part

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of a satanic instruction calls.

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I'd love to be able to explain that.

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Yeah, so there's lots of interesting life lessons can all

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be weaved in and around the holes.

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Tenix story far more interesting than anything.

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They'd be getting the current religious instruction classes.

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I can assure you all burned forever, but the less, you know, in this whole

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process, I never got to tell anybody and nobody ever asked, what exactly

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are you going to teach in this class?

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It doesn't matter.

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It's not relevant.

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Exactly.

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Nobody asked nobody was interested in.

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Yeah, Nope.

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And the department have got no control over it.

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And that's the important point.

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Yeah.

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They they, in fact I think just provide, you're not doing anything

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illegal, like recommending people consume illegal drugs or something.

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Yeah, no, you're not allowed to go against education department guidelines.

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So I believe you can't disparage certain groups.

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Yeah.

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But aside from that, so so we're going to take a breath for a

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while and and you know, might be shocked and might have a win.

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I was kind of happy to have my section 49 order by the wine.

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Cause at one point there, I thought the judge was going to say, I really don't

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like you guys and you seem like a sham to me and I'm going to order costs against

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you, but that was never on the table.

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So it's an enormous relief right at this moment, actually to

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know that there's a section 49.

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That means that I'm not going to be worried about a costs of water.

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So was that a different judge that gave you the section 49?

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Yeah, but that was all done on the papers that was just papers were lodged.

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I never even saw the judge.

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And that was a case where the crown actually consented that in fighting.

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They said, yeah, let him have you section 49 order.

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We don't.

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That's fine.

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So so that was a different judge, but it also had no argument at all in it.

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So it was just done by consent.

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So, so okay.

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Let's see that.

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So, so it was comforting to have that second 49 costs order than have to

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worry about an adverse costs order.

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Oh, anything else people want to know?

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Craig says in the battle between God and sight and history was written by

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the winner and I change and it is true.

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And Jack says may have missed this, but what will be taught during the class?

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I just wonder if it will feed in to invalidate Christian teachings

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that we'll likely see justification validation of their views.

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Well, at this time, Jack, there won't be any class we have yet

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to win and decision reserved.

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Not sure a lot of it didn't go well, so not confident, but kind

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of land a few punches at the end.

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So dire straights asked, how am I?

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And the answer is on frazzled and exhausted.

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And I have been talking nonstop to people all day.

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And yeah, so I've already said I'm happy to look at the compass program

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is actually going to do a very good thing on us when it eventually happens

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next year, they interviewed me.

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When I was in Sydney in the days when you could go to Sydney, remember that

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Jay used to be able to go places like Sydney, I've heard Televista things.

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Right.

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I think it's just ancient legend.

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Yeah.

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So that was back in February.

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I think it was, I was sat down stone work.

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Yes.

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But so it was before we actually had the adverse decision at that point we had

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applied, but they hadn't responded to us.

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So that was a way back then that we first spoke with compass and

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they've done different interviews and they've built up quite a a file, a

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video, and they kind of onboard and understand fully what we're doing.

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So when the compass program eventually comes out, then I

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think that will be an interesting.

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Full expos.

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I have what we've been up to.

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Yeah.

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It's not going to be the same as the Moonlight state, the exposure

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of the BLP Peterson corruption.

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Hopefully not.

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I meant more about the department of education.

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Oh, right.

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No, it's more about us, Sally.

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Yeah.

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It's about us, I think.

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And our journey and depends what happens as that journey unfolds as to whether

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we are part of a larger story about religious freedom and discrimination

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next year, when the, when the religious discrimination bill comes up.

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So we might be just a small part of a program or there might be something

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a bit longer, certainly given them enough material, they can do something.

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I mean the religious freedom doesn't just mean religious

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freedom for a particular group.

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It means religious freedom for everybody.

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Yes, that's right.

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Yes.

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Yep.

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That's the one.

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So yeah.

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Well there we go.

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Any other thoughts Alison on it that you can think of?

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I can't really think of much else to add.

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I think I should probably sign off and be with you guys, the normal panel next week.

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Any favorite topics come up in the last week, Joe, that you're keen to explore?

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Not off the top of my head.

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I'm sure there will be.

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I saw I saw this thing, which was a mashup of, of statements by Gladys

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Berejiklian and Scott Morrison.

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You know, all of her original statements where she said, oh,

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we get by without lockdowns.

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Cause we know what we're doing.

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And, and then as it all progressed and turned to attending to

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the mess that it is now.

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So so the, the juice media podcast about COVID.

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The last one was really interesting.

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They were interviewing a doctor who was part of the BMJ

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panel, British medical journal.

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Right.

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And I think has done quite a lot in remote parts in infectious diseases and

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was talking about hotel quarantine and how hotels with a shared air conditioning

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system is probably the worst place that you can put people who have COVID

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or sorry, who potentially have COVID.

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Yes.

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And then there was a really interesting BBC world service, 45 minute podcast,

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which was where three epidemiologists doing a, where did we screw up?

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You know, what did we get?

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Right.

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And where did we screw up?

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And where did these outbreaks come from?

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Yep.

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So possibly.

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Was covering off on and linking to, okay.

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Sounds, sounds like a plane.

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So, all right.

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Alison in the chat room says my brain is mush and I was just

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sitting in the pub, the gallery.

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Yeah.

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It's a bit like that.

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All right.

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Rambling.

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Now I'm just rambling.

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I better, I better sign off and yeah, we'll be back next week to talk about

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news and politics and sex and religion.

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And we will talk to you then.

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Bye.

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For now.